Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Why pre-trammel UO failed, and the similarities to DF

13468913

Comments

  • mordeganmordegan Member Posts: 1

    I think the DF numbers will be fine because everyone should know what to expect. I am certain that DF will attract many PK veterans from a wide-variety of MMOs.  Anyone with a brain should research their game before purchase.  This is a PK game with hard lessons to learn.  Those who whine will be ignored or flamed on boards.  Those who cannot handle the carnage in game will soon be weeded out.  Those that remain will become the loyal sub base.

    The issue of exploits I believe will hopefully be quickly addressed and those who abuse them punished.  However, all games have them and we just have to roll with them until they are fixed.

  • BlodplsBlodpls Member Posts: 1,454
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp


    The original poster makes some decent points about why it's hard to get a high sub rate for an FFA PvP game.
    However, things have changed a bit since UO. There are more people, with more computers, with more internet connections, that know about MMORPGs and want to play them than in the UO days. So, even if it's a small percentage of total MMORPG players that want a good FFA PvP game, it could still be a large enough audience to make the game successful.
    Not WoW successful, but enough to break even, or make a profit.

     

    Yes that's true, you can't really compare 1998 to now, it's a completely different world as far as internet ownership and online gaming is concerned.  It's like trying to compare Stephenson's Rocket to a Ford Focus.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by Xoulz


     
    "The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel. Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system."
     

    All I had to read was that ^^ to know the rest of your wall of text was pointless.
    From 1997 ~1999 Ultima Online was a perfect game, then all the little children started playing it when internet connection became more available(1999'ish), then, eventually these children found the message boards and started to complain to Lord British that the game wa too hard.
    So the game evolved into a carebear chat channel and with the lowered price, it found a new fan-base. Fortunately, most of the UO vets already moved on to more sophisticated games. 2 years of playing a isometric game was enough for most. But, (again) kids using mommies money could play UO on their outdated rigs, so they stuck around.
    The rest of the player base moved on to other titles with more challenging content. Trammel was a last ditch effort to keep revenues flowing for Lord British... the game was already dead, Trammel was life support!
     

     

    What actually happened is that for a period of time, UO was something new and different, an online game you could play with other real people. Wow! Imagine that!

    There was no competition, because of a lack of other online games where you could play with real people, so people signed up for UO to experience this new internet type of game.

    Therefore, you get a unique game, never to be repeated in history again. You get a game that has FFA PvP, that has both players that want to engage in FFA PvP, and Players that do not, called "carebears".

    Why would carebears play a game with FFA PvP? Because there was no alternative and they wanted to experience this new internet thing of playing a game online with other real people.

    The, other onlines games like EQ emerge, and this period in history is over. Carebears don't HAVE to play UO to experience and MMORPG, they just migrate to other games.

    Players that loved FFA PvP are greatly saddened, because now they don't have Carebears to kill anymore, and the whole game  dynamic has changed. Now, games with FFA PvP ONLY have players that like FFA PvP, since carebears have other choices of games to play. 

    Because of this, you can never exactly reproduce the UO pre-Trammel experience. It will never happen again, because there is competition in the market place.

    People used to drive Model T cars, and they liked it, because there was nothing else. That will also never happen a gain.

     

    image

  • StellosStellos Member UncommonPosts: 1,491

    I respectfully disagree with you OP.  You are correct on some points, but have failed to miss the most important point of the PvP system IMO.  Remember what happened to players in UO who ganked other "blues"?  They eventually turned RED.  This meant they were free game for ANYONE in UO to gank.  This often rendered their character useless until they could stay logged in long enough to turn back into a BLUE which took forever.  Furthermore, after the character became perma-red which meant they were basically a serial murderer their character was forced to live the rest of their time like that.  This nearly completely ruined their character, but I suppose they were okay with it. 

    Ganking is not something that is done at the drop of a hat like many may think.  Sometimes the penalty is worth it to murder an annoying asshole of a player, but more than likely it is not worth the time you will serve as a murderer. 

  • spikenogspikenog Member Posts: 283

     The OP is right on all accounts.

     

    As for balance...something that is close to do for any game...I have the solution.

    In order to balance a game for PVP all the developers need to do is allow the the players to switch there classes and skills whenever they want, for free and instantly.

    That way...if a class is to powerful or skills or to "OP" people can easily grab them all. And when they are nerfed and a new "FOTM" appears...everyone can switch again.

    This would fix all balance issues.

  • AganazerAganazer Member Posts: 1,319

    Kal Ort Por

    *fizzle*

    Aww crap!

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Member UncommonPosts: 2,610
    Originally posted by Azrile


    It's apparent that  part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel.   Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO).
    The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel.    Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.
    1.  Exploits -     Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed.   How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends.  How fast do most games take to fix an exploit?  A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it?  UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'.   Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed.  Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.
     
    Okay, I'll take a stab.  Number one, I started in Pre-Trammel and I loved it.  I enjoyed it far more back then when things were actually difficult, there was no power hour.  And also, I didn't exploit, and I was an honest player.  I know a lot of people who felt the same way too.
     
    I did a lot of fighting back then and didn't notice a lot of the exploits that you're talking about, though I did hear of them.  Most players quit after Trammel because the element of danger was taken away, whether you were a murderer or an innocent.  It took away the rush in a lot of aspects.
    2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above.  If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.  
     
    Crashes were bad.  But that's only if you had a bad connection.. though, how many MMO's can you play with a bad connection?  Not many.
    3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this :)  Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town.  It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill.  Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out.  In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town.  Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing.  Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town.  This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel.   Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason.   The same thing will happen in Darkfall.  Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 
     
    Don't go there..  Ask around, hell.. the first time I played, I jumped in some guys portal and it took me into the deceit dungeon.. yeah, I didn't make it out, but someone res'd me and ported me back out.  It's the gamers that can't handle a challenge that ruin the game.  They cry until they get their way and then your loyal people start to get pissed.  I remember taking months to get to GM magery back then, only to have power hour make it possible in a week. 
    4. Don't come late to the party -  This kind of goes with #3.  But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress.  The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them.  This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early.   I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch.  But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did.   New players won't renew
     
    Do you commit suicide if someone down the street is bigger and stronger than you?  No.  That's just an excuse to complain.
    5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do.  Class balance in PvP is almost impossible.   How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time.  In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.
     
    True, I hope we have learned from the mistakes and take precautions to fix those problems. 
    6. Bring your friends -  full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands.  This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on?   And again, what about new players?
     
    Very few players traveled in large packs.  Most people wandered by themselves or with a friend or two at the most.  Very rarely did you ever see big groups unless it was a guild war or something.
    UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.
    1.  New players won't last the first month

    2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly.   'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic.  Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.

    3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played.   UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm. 

    4.  Gear grinding -  You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.
    There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.
    If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game

     

    Ultimately your opinion is speculation based on very little relevant factual evidence.  Let's hope that your theory is wrong... and why exactly are you writing this long post to say why it will fail?  Wouldn't your time be better served doing something a little more productive?  Then again, I guess you could ask me the same question.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by DAS1337

    Originally posted by Azrile



     
    Very few players traveled in large packs.  Most people wandered by themselves or with a friend or two at the most.  Very rarely did you ever see big groups unless it was a guild war or something.


     

    Perhaps that was true in UO. But I traveled in pretty large packs quite often in DAoC. Some one would say in the main channel they are getting a group together for the frontier (the PvP area) does anyone want to join, adn that's all it would take.

    No guild needed, you just show up, join, and roam around with 10-30 players killing anything that moves.

    image

  • OhaanOhaan Member UncommonPosts: 568

    I think the OP has hand-selected certain arguments and then presents them in the context that history ALWAYS repeats itself. If you are going to make forecasts then you have to consider all the relevant details.

    UO was the first large scale game of its genre. It was, in effect, an experiment. The results were that there are more than one type of MMO player. In particular, those that enjoy PvP and those that don't.

    Current MMO's now advertise their features. A player that purchases DF and then complains about not being able to easily solo and getting PK'ed/looted is an idiot.  Choose a product based on your needs. If you want safe PvE then choose one of the several MMO options available.  

  • WickershamWickersham Member UncommonPosts: 2,379
    Originally posted by Answer_KV

    Originally posted by Wickersham


    A community that has no justice system is doomed to die out.  People need a method to separate themselves from those that would do them harm.  Darkfalls solution is to banish players from certain areas on the penalty of death but because death is relatively meaningless in these games (immediate resurrection) the offenders can constantly reoffend minutes after they are supposedly punished.  The system will be out of balance and because of this the honest folk (the real community) will be driven away.  Too many parasites feeding from a host will kill the host but the same will also occur when one parasite's hunger is insatiable.
    A community that has no method or reason for players to put their trust in each other is doomed to die out.  Due to the fact that there is no proper justice system or any valid way for a player to determine if a person is upstanding or not then trust will always be an issue in these types of games.  You can't build friendships or partnerships or communities on mistrust.  New players who have no real life friends in the game will be turned away before they have a reason to play (friends) because they will most likely be cheated, killed, and robbed by 15 strangers before they meet a worthy player.
    Stolen goods and loss recovery is another issue that these types of games ignore.  When property is taken from a player it needs to be returned to that player or the player will feel cheated.  You don't want a player to feel cheated in a game when they are paying 15 dollars a month because they will probably feel cheated in real life too.
    A lack of community is what kill these games and the nature of these games doesn't inspire community habits.  A game like this needs player professions that make other players content - Darkfall does this but it may not be enough.

     

    I also question your UO experience.    Justice system?  Games like Ultima Online had a magnificent justice system, it was called player justice.   There is not a more beautiful thing than putting the task in the player's hands to do the right thing, and although the "social experiment" known as Ultima Online was deemed a failure, I never understood why.    It failed only because the development team became scared and followed suit of it's new-age competition.   I can post screenshots of literally thousands of players rallying in Lord British's castle desperately trying to talk OSI out of  implementing trammel, most quit after their cries were ignored.

    Lack of community?  I whole-heartedly beg to differ, and it again makes me question your experiences in UO.  Never in any game before or since had I ever felt such strong bonds with my fellow players or guildmates.  There is no feeling like entering into a dungeon with a stranger, watching him closely at all times because you know he could backstab you when you least expect it.   A murderer rolls in and begins casting spells on you, but your partner distracts him and screams to you "Get out of here!".  He dies and loses all of his gear to save you,  there's been nothing like the bonds that grow from these kinds of interactions in any game since. 

    MASSIVE communities were built in this game based on these type of formed bonds, and most of them continue in the MMO world today just because they built this strong trust from early Ultima Online.   I can remember cities built by the players with no NPC laws whatsoever that were safer than the middle of West Britain bank itself.  If a griefer tried anything short of tipping his hat in fear at you, these player guilds would rain hell down upon him proving the fact that there was plenty of reason to maintain and grow.  The interactions on a daily basis really did create a tangible reward far greater than any end-game epic rare or new expansion could ever create.

    To say the playerbase (or lack of) was the downfall of Ultima Online would not only be selling it short, but flat out wrong.

    They made changes to reflect the demands of the community and not because they got cold feet.  Players didn't like the anarchy system and wanted changes, YOU may not of... but enough players did so players were given a choice.  Players made the choice.

    When you conduct an experiment you are supposed to learn from it.  I have learned from it.  What I learned I posted above.  The makers of Darkfall have also learned from it and have made changes that they feel will will foster killing Pkers and discourage PKing - you still have the choice to PK but it's a harder road. 

    Their system is based on racism - they encourage players to kill players of another race and discourage players from killing their own kind.  If a player kills their own kind they will be banished until they redeem themselves by killing their fellow PKers and by questing.

    Is it enough?  For me, it depends on how soft or hard they make the redemption system.

    "The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"

  • ShneakyOneShneakyOne Member UncommonPosts: 156

    The OP is wrong. The above poster is wrong.

    OSI did NOT make the game, OSI killed the game. The numbers REFLECT this. You say the numbers went down prior to releasing Trammel? They were actually going down when OSI took over, not because of what was happening in the community, but what was happening in the company.

     

    That is the proof. Ever meet an original UO gamer that doesn't talk about it like it was the greatest game in the world? Ever meet an original UO gamer who doesn't cry when you mention Trammel? Sorry buddy, but there's a reason why UO had the most die-hard MMO fans to date... and it's not because of what you said was wrong with the game.

  • AzrileAzrile Member Posts: 2,582
    Originally posted by Ohaan


    I think the OP has hand-selected certain arguments and then presents them in the context that history ALWAYS repeats itself. If you are going to make forecasts then you have to consider all the relevant details.
    UO was the first large scale game of its genre. It was, in effect, an experiment. The results were that there are more than one type of MMO player. In particular, those that enjoy PvP and those that don't.
    Current MMO's now advertise their features. A player that purchases DF and then complains about not being able to easily solo and getting PK'ed/looted is an idiot.  Choose a product based on your needs. If you want safe PvE then choose one of the several MMO options available.  



     

    This is actually a great point that I honestly didn't think of.  When UO was launched, it was 'the game' and of course a lot of people wanted to play it as a pve-solo game and were prevented from doing that.  Darkfall will not have that problem.  The pve-solo players probably won't come to begin with, so the percentage of people complaining about getting ganked will be much lower than UO.

    Good rebuttal.

  • RasputinRasputin Member UncommonPosts: 602

    Azrile, stop fooling around and answer the god damn question!

    Where is the proof to back up your "fact", that UO was dying pre-trammel?

     

  • damian7damian7 Member Posts: 4,449
    Originally posted by Azrile


    It's apparent that  part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel.   Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO).
    The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel.    Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.
    1.  Exploits -     Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed.   How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends.  How fast do most games take to fix an exploit?  A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it?  UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'.   Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed.  Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.
    2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above.  If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.  
    3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this :)  Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town.  It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill.  Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out.  In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town.  Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing.  Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town.  This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel.   Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason.   The same thing will happen in Darkfall.  Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 
    4. Don't come late to the party -  This kind of goes with #3.  But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress.  The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them.  This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early.   I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch.  But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did.   New players won't renew
    5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do.  Class balance in PvP is almost impossible.   How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time.  In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.
    6. Bring your friends -  full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands.  This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on?   And again, what about new players?
    UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.
    1.  New players won't last the first month

    2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly.   'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic.  Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.

    3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played.   UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm. 

    4.  Gear grinding -  You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.
    There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.
    If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game



     

     

    i like pre-trammel uo.  in my first week of play, this one mob kept killing me.  every time i would venture past the brit graveyard, this glowing red mob would come rushing me and kill me.

    i could travel anywhere else and i never saw this glowing red monster.   it was always lurking just beyond the brit gy.

    then i found out, it was a murderer.  who did nothing but wait for noobs to venture past brit and would loot their noob gear.

     

    i chuckled a lot.

    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • damian7damian7 Member Posts: 4,449
    Originally posted by Thomas2641

    Originally posted by Azrile


    It's apparent that  part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel.   Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO).
    The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel.    Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.
    1.  Exploits -     Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed.   How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends.  How fast do most games take to fix an exploit?  A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it?  UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'.   Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed.  Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.
    2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above.  If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.  
    3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this :)  Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town.  It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill.  Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out.  In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town.  Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing.  Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town.  This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel.   Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason.   The same thing will happen in Darkfall.  Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 
    4. Don't come late to the party -  This kind of goes with #3.  But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress.  The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them.  This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early.   I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch.  But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did.   New players won't renew
    5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do.  Class balance in PvP is almost impossible.   How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time.  In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.
    6. Bring your friends -  full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands.  This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on?   And again, what about new players?
    UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.
    1.  New players won't last the first month

    2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly.   'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic.  Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.

    3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played.   UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm. 

    4.  Gear grinding -  You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.
    There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.
    If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game



     

    Can you document that postulate?? I have always been under the impression that UO did fine in the T2A era... And I was playing back then... (In fact I think you would have trouble proving it since they didn't show the server population numbers back then.. )



     

    so why did they change uo from ffa pvp to carebear-land with insurance for all your items?

     

    draw a line from point a to point b and logically explain the thinking instead of just throwing out "nuh huh".

    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • damian7damian7 Member Posts: 4,449
    Originally posted by Eyrothath



    I am all for a PvP game, but there has to be certain restrictions. Player Killers, Ganking, Training, Ninja looting, MOB stealing, Griefing: these are all negative gaming terms and are originally from UO.

     We already know that UO had ganking and griefing but World of Warcraft does too, are you aware of that? You have the level 80's on the WoW PvP servers going around and killing lower levels, over and over again, and there is nothing they can do about it, that is what griefing is.. You get griefed in WoW just as much as UO back then, it sounds like Darkfall is going to find ways around this...



     

    yes wow has ganking where you lose.... time running back to your body, or you just rez at the graveyard...

    uo had ganking where you lost everything on your body and if you rez'd at your body you'd be repeatedly killed.

     

    you can not logically, nor rationally, compare pvp in the two games.

    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • damian7damian7 Member Posts: 4,449
    Originally posted by Blodpls

    Originally posted by metalhead980 
    It took me less then two minutes to get back to my body with no durability hit. I didnt need to buy new gear, I have virtually no downtime. I was like "Ok, so when you kill me I lose nothing? LOL!"
     

     

    But you are losing something, your time. This is exactly the same thing that you lose in a ffa full loot game.



     

    let's compare this loss of time, shall we?

     

    you lose time in wow, which means, you run back to your body (a minute or two).

    in uo, you'd lose time, as in you would have to create/buy all new equipment to replace the equipment which was lost.  which means you'd have to earn the loot, or dig up the resources, etc.

     

    there is no comparison.  not rationally.  not logically.

    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • damian7damian7 Member Posts: 4,449
    Originally posted by rageagainst

    Originally posted by neonwire

    Originally posted by Azrile


    It's apparent that  part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel.   Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO).
    The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel.    Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.
    1.  Exploits -     Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed.   How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends.  How fast do most games take to fix an exploit?  A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it?  UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'.   Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed.  Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.
    2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above.  If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.  
    3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this :)  Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town.  It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill.  Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out.  In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town.  Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing.  Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town.  This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel.   Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason.   The same thing will happen in Darkfall.  Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 
    4. Don't come late to the party -  This kind of goes with #3.  But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress.  The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them.  This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early.   I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch.  But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did.   New players won't renew
    5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do.  Class balance in PvP is almost impossible.   How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time.  In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.
    6. Bring your friends -  full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands.  This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on?   And again, what about new players?
    UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.
    1.  New players won't last the first month

    2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly.   'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic.  Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.

    3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played.   UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm. 

    4.  Gear grinding -  You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.
    There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.
    If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game



     

    Yes thats a nice long detailed description of how open PvP did not work in Ultima Online......yeah that game thats 10 years old. Just because that old game used FFA PvP doesnt mean it will be anything like Darkfall. They are totally different games so stop being so predictable and comparing the two of them purely because you dont have any other examples to compare it with. You could just as easily use EVE as an example of how PvP can work in a game. Yes congratulations some games in tbe past have failed and some have succeeded. So whats your point? UO didnt do it well so it will be the same for any other FFA PvP game? Use your brain.

    You said "There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset."

    Well its a good thing that Darkfall is using Darkfalls ruleset then isnt it which has absolutely NOTHING to do with Ultima Online as thats a totally different game with a totally different ruleset........oh yeah and its 10 years old as well lol.

    There are so many problems with the points the op makes I'm not going to try to correct him, and yeah WoW didn't fail because Asheron's Call 2 failed, did it?



     

     

    wow, in no way, is a pvp game.  even the pvp servers on wow are carebear.

     

    why are you comparing wow to pvp games?  that makes no sense.  that's like me comparing an apple to a cow turd and saying that apples taste a lot better than cow turds... sure you can make the comparison... but WHY would you?

    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • damian7damian7 Member Posts: 4,449
    Originally posted by Evasia


    still whine about about a 11year old game hey guys

     

    well, we are talking about darkfall after all.

    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • BlodplsBlodpls Member Posts: 1,454
    Originally posted by damian7 
    let's compare this loss of time, shall we?
     you lose time in wow, which means, you run back to your body (a minute or two).
    in uo, you'd lose time, as in you would have to create/buy all new equipment to replace the equipment which was lost.  which means you'd have to earn the loot, or dig up the resources, etc.
     there is no comparison.  not rationally.  not logically.

     

    It is exactly the same, rationally and logically.  The amount of time may differ but it is still the same.

    Just because someone may consider the amount of downtime in one game acceptable in one game but unacceptable in the other does not make it different.

  • Answer_KVAnswer_KV Member Posts: 22
    Originally posted by Wickersham



    Is it enough?  For me, it depends on how soft or hard they make the redemption system.

     

    There's a fine line between a perfect balance for those who are upset and extreme overkill.   There were a thousand and one solutions to remedy the extreme nature of Ultima Online without totally destroying the community. 

  • HotjazzHotjazz Member UncommonPosts: 742
     Ever meet an original UO gamer that doesn't talk about it like it was the greatest game in the world? Ever meet an original UO gamer who doesn't cry when you mention Trammel? Sorry buddy, but there's a reason why UO had the most die-hard MMO fans to date... and it's not because of what you said was wrong with the game.



     

    Haha, this is true.

    Now Trammel fans, let us hear about your great stories from the carebearland. I never understood why you wanted it back then, and I can`t understand why you want DF to be Trammel today. I might have missed something so please tell me.

    What made Trammel so exciting and worth fighting for?

    What was your great moments in Trammel that you remember 10 years later?

  • WickershamWickersham Member UncommonPosts: 2,379
    Originally posted by ShneakyOne


    The OP is wrong. The above poster is wrong.
    OSI did NOT make the game, OSI killed the game. The numbers REFLECT this. You say the numbers went down prior to releasing Trammel? They were actually going down when OSI took over, not because of what was happening in the community, but what was happening in the company.
     
    That is the proof. Ever meet an original UO gamer that doesn't talk about it like it was the greatest game in the world? Ever meet an original UO gamer who doesn't cry when you mention Trammel? Sorry buddy, but there's a reason why UO had the most die-hard MMO fans to date... and it's not because of what you said was wrong with the game.

    I'm w-w-w-w-w-w-wrong?!?!?!????

     

    Raph Koster himself admitted that PKing was a problem in UO when he said "I think we hit a lot of [our design goals], and were close to having much of it working, but the PK [player killing] problem basically undermined everything."  And again "UO often felt like long days of taking out things we had put into the game because players found ways to hurt each other with the toys we gave them."

    His solutions were "...various systems like stat loss and ping-pong murder counts were having a gradual effect on PK attacks." and "If we had gotten to the natural next step, which was player cities with control over PvP within their territory, I think the real nature of PvP in the game could have emerged."

    Koster left and they addressed the issue once and for all with Trammel.

    PKing was a problem with the anarchy system that was original UO and it needed to be addressed.  How it was addressed is really the only issue at hand.  There is more than one way to curb PKing - Darkfall has one and UO implemented several before they gave players the choice.

    "The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 10,064

          The problem with Uo was that even though it was a sandbox too many players took their pleasure in griefing and killing other players all the time.......There wasnt a single activity you could where you could just sit back and relax a couple minutes without some jerk trying to kill you.....You couldnt mine, fish, work on animal taming, nothing.....In UO the joy for too many players was basically waiting for people to walk outside the gates of Brittain and kill them or go to the Brittain graveyard and kill the noobs.........  If this is what Darkfall is going to be like then it will struggle mightily as most new players dont want to get ganked by losers all day long.

  • DameonkDameonk Member UncommonPosts: 1,914
    Originally posted by damian7 
    so why did they change uo from ffa pvp to carebear-land with insurance for all your items?
    draw a line from point a to point b and logically explain the thinking instead of just throwing out "nuh huh".

     

    So why did SOE change SWG from a great sandbox game that was still bringing in new subscriptions to a completely different game that is now a wasteland and alienated all of their original customer base?

    The answer to this question and yours:  money. 

    EA wanted more money with UO.  They looked at the market and saw that EQ was going to be doing better than UO and started making changes to the game to try and cater to the EQ crowd.  The only problem was, UO already had a loyal fanbase that was steadily GROWING.  The changes forced out the fans of UO and brought in a lot new players until the game tanked because they turned it from an engaging, fun, intense gaming experience into ... well.. EQ 2D.

    SOE saw WoW and did pretty much the same thing EA did.

    "There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."

Sign In or Register to comment.