While I believe in Christ, I have studied this story extensively, I find the evidence for this one dubious. The problem is the document referenced probably dates AFTER Christ so it may just be a writing done by Buddhist converts who were making up some literature to fit into their world view.
There is much better evidence that Christ is Lord.
Aye - I was not suggesting this was evidense. Scripture is enough to undoubtfully declare that Yeshua is the foretold Messiah, yet that was not the point of this discussion.
Since you have studied this story extensively, could you share more infomation than what you've already listed?
God does not exist. All religions are fairy tails spun by aristocracy to control the masses. Christ was a carpenter/anarchist who led a bunch of rejects into creating religions based on his beliefs. Never did he perform a miracle. Never was he the son of god [sic - no caps]. Mary was a woman who had an extra-marital affair and blamed the pregnancy on god [god]. You've heard all this before, or maybe you haven't seeing as how you live in the Bible Belt.
And your evidence for this is...?
But while we're on the subject of Buddha, did you know there's a young boy in Nepal who is believed by many to be the reincarnation of Buddha? And the kid is milking it for all it's worth too. He probably could get rich off of it, but my guess is he's taken a vow of poverty. Because if he didn't it would pretty much destroy the perception.
God does not exist. All religions are fairy tails spun by aristocracy to control the masses. Christ was a carpenter/anarchist who led a bunch of rejects into creating religions based on his beliefs. Never did he perform a miracle. Never was he the son of god [sic - no caps]. Mary was a woman who had an extra-marital affair and blamed the pregnancy on god [god].
You've heard all this before, or maybe you haven't seeing as how you live in the Bible Belt.
wow. so you were actually there huh? That must be impressive. So Jesus was only a carpenter and anarchist who led a bunch of rejects into creating a religion that now spans the entire globe and is believed (since the death and resurrection of Christ) by BILLIONs of people; both great and small.
So you believe that Roman citizens who were Christians got hooked on a fairy tale by a "bunch of rejects" to the point that even though they were murdered en masse by Nero they still believed to the very end? To the ones who were impaled on a pole and lit on fire while still alive so that Nero could illuminate his evening banquets...they were engrossed by a Charismatic anarchist?
Jesus said to give to Ceaser what is Ceaser and give to God what is God's. Christ also said to respect your leaders no matter how corrupt they are because God had willed them into office for whatever mysterious purpose and if these leaders sin, God will deal with them in His way...not through our revenge. These are not the words of an anarchist to me.
Trust me....your arguments are severly flawed but I respect your faith on not believing in the obvious
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
God does not exist. All religions are fairy tails spun by aristocracy to control the masses. Christ was a carpenter/anarchist who led a bunch of rejects into creating religions based on his beliefs. Never did he perform a miracle. Never was he the son of god [sic - no caps]. Mary was a woman who had an extra-marital affair and blamed the pregnancy on god [god].
You've heard all this before, or maybe you haven't seeing as how you live in the Bible Belt.
wow. so you were actually there huh? That must be impressive. So Jesus was only a carpenter and anarchist who led a bunch of rejects into creating a religion that now spans the entire globe and is believed (since the death and resurrection of Christ) by BILLIONs of people; both great and small.
So you believe that Roman citizens who were Christians got hooked on a fairy tale by a "bunch of rejects" to the point that even though they were murdered en masse by Nero they still believed to the very end? To the ones who were impaled on a pole and lit on fire while still alive so that Nero could illuminate his evening banquets...they were engrossed by a Charismatic anarchist?
Jesus said to give to Ceaser what is Ceaser and give to God what is God's. Christ also said to respect your leaders no matter how corrupt they are because God had willed them into office for whatever mysterious purpose and if these leaders sin, God will deal with them in His way...not through our revenge. These are not the words of an anarchist to me.
Trust me....your arguments are severly flawed but I respect your faith on not believing in the obvious
Whoa whoa whoa whoa...
All I got to say is...Scripture. Book chapter and verse!
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
God does not exist. All religions are fairy tails spun by aristocracy to control the masses. Christ was a carpenter/anarchist who led a bunch of rejects into creating religions based on his beliefs. Never did he perform a miracle. Never was he the son of god [sic - no caps]. Mary was a woman who had an extra-marital affair and blamed the pregnancy on god [god].
You've heard all this before, or maybe you haven't seeing as how you live in the Bible Belt.
wow. so you were actually there huh? That must be impressive. So Jesus was only a carpenter and anarchist who led a bunch of rejects into creating a religion that now spans the entire globe and is believed (since the death and resurrection of Christ) by BILLIONs of people; both great and small.
So you believe that Roman citizens who were Christians got hooked on a fairy tale by a "bunch of rejects" to the point that even though they were murdered en masse by Nero they still believed to the very end? To the ones who were impaled on a pole and lit on fire while still alive so that Nero could illuminate his evening banquets...they were engrossed by a Charismatic anarchist?
Jesus said to give to Ceaser what is Ceaser and give to God what is God's. Christ also said to respect your leaders no matter how corrupt they are because God had willed them into office for whatever mysterious purpose and if these leaders sin, God will deal with them in His way...not through our revenge. These are not the words of an anarchist to me.
Trust me....your arguments are severly flawed but I respect your faith on not believing in the obvious
Whoa whoa whoa whoa...
All I got to say is...Scripture. Book chapter and verse!
I find it ironic that the great counter-argument to theism has always been that religion is a fabricated tool used to control the masses, yet here we have a theist openly acknowledging such sentiment dating all the way back to Christ.
Perhaps Christ simply wanted to be perfectly matyred, forgiving his enemies...
Is there a point though in debating religion in the first place?
For every point a theist can make about his religion there is always a counter point and vice versa. Quoting scriptures won't change that fact in the slightest wether god or jesus is real or not. So unless some dead people come back to life and tell us what is there, everyone can believe whatever deity they so choose including cthulhu if they are feeling kinky.
I never really get the whole "my religion is better than yours" thing. I mean if you believe it what do you care what the others believe?
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Entertaining stuff. Reminds me of the gifted people who find Jesus face on toast or the Virgin Mary on a milk carton.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Is there a point though in debating religion in the first place? For every point a theist can make about his religion there is always a counter point and vice versa. Quoting scriptures won't change that fact in the slightest wether god or jesus is real or not. So unless some dead people come back to life and tell us what is there, everyone can believe whatever deity they so choose including cthulhu if they are feeling kinky. I never really get the whole "my religion is better than yours" thing. I mean if you believe it what do you care what the others believe?
But what if someone DID come back to life? If that's true, wouldn't that make what that someone said fairly important and worth considering?
Christianity is based upon witness testimony of people who saw such an event and shared it with one another, and the world.
Christianity all comes down to the credibility of those witnesses and that testimony. I find more than sufficient evidence for that.
Is there a point though in debating religion in the first place? For every point a theist can make about his religion there is always a counter point and vice versa. Quoting scriptures won't change that fact in the slightest wether god or jesus is real or not. So unless some dead people come back to life and tell us what is there, everyone can believe whatever deity they so choose including cthulhu if they are feeling kinky. I never really get the whole "my religion is better than yours" thing. I mean if you believe it what do you care what the others believe?
But what if someone DID come back to life? If that's true, wouldn't that make what that someone said fairly important and worth considering?
If someone did come back to life it would be nice. By dead here I mean the scientific version most commonly used, that is brain and heart not functioning. If that could be proven then yes it would be important.
Christianity is based upon witness testimony of people who saw such an event and shared it with one another, and the world.
Testimory and witnessing by whom? Jesus apostoles? Common people that most of them could be tricked anyway by simple "miracles"?
Christianity all comes down to the credibility of those witnesses and that testimony. I find more than sufficient evidence for that.
Communal reinforcement is not an unknown practice nor is selective thinking.
Scripture and testimories of believers are not "evidence". You can say that you base your belief in such things but those don't prove anything really other than read them as part of your religion.
Just to add that I am not saying here that your belief in that is wrong or anything like that. But you can't really prove your religion is the "correct one". Simple as that.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Hmmm, so if I testify that my body is full of tiny trapped spirits and I need to be dropped into a volcano to free them and let my real self surface and I do research in scriptures to back it up I should be good to go.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Is there a point though in debating religion in the first place? For every point a theist can make about his religion there is always a counter point and vice versa. Quoting scriptures won't change that fact in the slightest wether god or jesus is real or not. So unless some dead people come back to life and tell us what is there, everyone can believe whatever deity they so choose including cthulhu if they are feeling kinky. I never really get the whole "my religion is better than yours" thing. I mean if you believe it what do you care what the others believe?
But what if someone DID come back to life? If that's true, wouldn't that make what that someone said fairly important and worth considering?
If someone did come back to life it would be nice. By dead here I mean the scientific version most commonly used, that is brain and heart not functioning. If that could be proven then yes it would be important.
Christianity is based upon witness testimony of people who saw such an event and shared it with one another, and the world.
Testimory and witnessing by whom? Jesus apostoles? Common people that most of them could be tricked anyway by simple "miracles"?
Christianity all comes down to the credibility of those witnesses and that testimony. I find more than sufficient evidence for that.
Communal reinforcement is not an unknown practice nor is selective thinking.
Scripture and testimories of believers are not "evidence". You can say that you base your belief in such things but those don't prove anything really other than read them as part of your religion.
Just to add that I am not saying here that your belief in that is wrong or anything like that. But you can't really prove your religion is the "correct one". Simple as that.
Those witnesses were willing to die for what they believed, and not one of them cracked under pressure. They didn't die for a "belief," but what they had witnessed. Hundreds of people witnessed this, and were changed by it.
Witness testimony certainly IS evidence, It is NOT scientific evidence, but it is certainly historical evidence. You judge such testimony by the credibility of the witnesses. I find the witnesses, after evaluating them extensively over a period of many years, to be highly credible.
You don't, that's fine. I do.
How thoroughly have you examined the evidence? which books on the subject have you read?
Hmmm, so if I testify that my body is full of tiny trapped spirits and I need to be dropped into a volcano to free them and let my real self surface and I do research in scriptures to back it up I should be good to go.
No, but if hundreds of people testify that you said you would die and be resurrected, and then you die in front of witnesses and then hundreds see you after seeing you dead, and then those same hundreds are willing to die in the name of that knowledge, then I would say you and they would be fairly credible witnesses.
how carefully have YOU studied the evidence? how many books have you read on the subject?
I want to remind folks that apologetics is NOT my major field of theology. I, after years of study, found enough to my coming to believe in the major tenet of Christiatinity: That Jesus was the unique Son of God and died on the cross and was resurrected.
After that I did my own studies and evaluated the various Christian doctrines and found I agree with some but not others, as all Christians of the various denominatons will understand, Contracry to popular belief, Christianity is not an organized religion. Various Churches and groups have tried and failed over the centuries to organize it, but God and human reason have seen fit to continually break that down.
The faith is diverse, constantly changing, and alive. My personal views are different than many other Christians, and, as with politics. I hold what is termed a minority view within the "club."
If people wanto to know more about the validity of the faith, however, much better people than I have argued the case. A very good beginning of this discussion can be found here:
Robin is more of a full-on theologian rather than just focusing on apologetics (defense of the faith), but he is a bright man with a thorough knowledge of the ancient languages that the texts were written in. He's also a really nice guy.
For most of my life I did NOT believe until I felt challenged enough to actually challenge the evidence myself. In the end, Christ won.
Let me repeat in no uncertain terms that my listing these sites is an endorsement or agreement with everything found on them. I suggest them only as a good beginning because they discuss major issues as well as are a good place to start your own quest for the Holy Grail.
I suggest and respect everyone to come to his or her own conclusions on these matters.
Religion is a sicknes, a mind warping, crutch. A series of thoughts and ideals clung too by weaker men and exploited by the evil ones. And while religion has some noble ideas in theory, every great war, tradgedy and massacre can be traced back to some religion, all religions, every one of them have their demons. These arent just my beliefs, they are fact.
It doesnt even matter if buddha or whatever fat man was being confused for him prophecized the comming of a white man with blonde hair in blue eyes being born in the heart of isreal. Most people dont even know that the story of Jesus is just a spin off of the story of Osiris and the virgin Isis and her son Horus. A black pharroh in egypt,t he story of jesus is the exact same story, word for word with some key substitutions. The story originated 5000 years before the birth of christ.
This doesnt mean jesus was bullshit or that he was blakc, it just goes to show all religions are fairy tales used to govern uncivilized man and the greatest tragedy is that people still use that shit as a crutch in the world today.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Is there a point though in debating religion in the first place? For every point a theist can make about his religion there is always a counter point and vice versa. Quoting scriptures won't change that fact in the slightest wether god or jesus is real or not. So unless some dead people come back to life and tell us what is there, everyone can believe whatever deity they so choose including cthulhu if they are feeling kinky. I never really get the whole "my religion is better than yours" thing. I mean if you believe it what do you care what the others believe?
But what if someone DID come back to life? If that's true, wouldn't that make what that someone said fairly important and worth considering?
If someone did come back to life it would be nice. By dead here I mean the scientific version most commonly used, that is brain and heart not functioning. If that could be proven then yes it would be important.
Christianity is based upon witness testimony of people who saw such an event and shared it with one another, and the world.
Testimory and witnessing by whom? Jesus apostoles? Common people that most of them could be tricked anyway by simple "miracles"?
Christianity all comes down to the credibility of those witnesses and that testimony. I find more than sufficient evidence for that.
Communal reinforcement is not an unknown practice nor is selective thinking.
Scripture and testimories of believers are not "evidence". You can say that you base your belief in such things but those don't prove anything really other than read them as part of your religion.
Just to add that I am not saying here that your belief in that is wrong or anything like that. But you can't really prove your religion is the "correct one". Simple as that.
Those witnesses were willing to die for what they believed, and not one of them cracked under pressure. They didn't die for a "belief," but what they had witnessed. Hundreds of people witnessed this, and were changed by it.
Witness testimony certainly IS evidence, It is NOT scientific evidence, but it is certainly historical evidence. You judge such testimony by the credibility of the witnesses. I find the witnesses, after evaluating them extensively over a period of many years, to be highly credible.
You don't, that's fine. I do.
How thoroughly have you examined the evidence? which books on the subject have you read?
First of all I might add that the area I study most is not the theological part but psycology.
I will send you,time allowing, a list of the books I read via pm, simply because the last sentence puts me into thoughts about the reason you used it as an argument, since you did not mention your sources to begin with and as such I prefer not to interpret it as an egotistical argument that tries to make a point by belittling the source.
To your other things.
How are you sure about what these witnesses actually witness? And also why they interpret what they saw the way they did. To clarify things here, I don't imply that the witnesses may have lied, but each person may give a different interpretation of what they saw. What methods did you use to examine them?
People will and can die for their beliefs, simply because they have accepted them deep into their cores. The mind is susceptible in delusions and Christians as any other human mind are no more strong or weak than any other to that. So unless you take personal interviews of the witnesses it's still hard to have something more concrete than the "people witnessed it".
Even if you use witnesses and justify them as a source then you have to accept Buddism as an even more valid religion in that matter to tell you the truth.
In matters of faith the only thing you can give is a high or low possibility since the human mind by its nature will stretch the facts or alter them to suit their particular belief.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Is there a point though in debating religion in the first place? For every point a theist can make about his religion there is always a counter point and vice versa. Quoting scriptures won't change that fact in the slightest wether god or jesus is real or not. So unless some dead people come back to life and tell us what is there, everyone can believe whatever deity they so choose including cthulhu if they are feeling kinky. I never really get the whole "my religion is better than yours" thing. I mean if you believe it what do you care what the others believe?
But what if someone DID come back to life? If that's true, wouldn't that make what that someone said fairly important and worth considering?
If someone did come back to life it would be nice. By dead here I mean the scientific version most commonly used, that is brain and heart not functioning. If that could be proven then yes it would be important.
Christianity is based upon witness testimony of people who saw such an event and shared it with one another, and the world.
Testimory and witnessing by whom? Jesus apostoles? Common people that most of them could be tricked anyway by simple "miracles"?
Christianity all comes down to the credibility of those witnesses and that testimony. I find more than sufficient evidence for that.
Communal reinforcement is not an unknown practice nor is selective thinking.
Scripture and testimories of believers are not "evidence". You can say that you base your belief in such things but those don't prove anything really other than read them as part of your religion.
Just to add that I am not saying here that your belief in that is wrong or anything like that. But you can't really prove your religion is the "correct one". Simple as that.
Those witnesses were willing to die for what they believed, and not one of them cracked under pressure. They didn't die for a "belief," but what they had witnessed. Hundreds of people witnessed this, and were changed by it.
Witness testimony certainly IS evidence, It is NOT scientific evidence, but it is certainly historical evidence. You judge such testimony by the credibility of the witnesses. I find the witnesses, after evaluating them extensively over a period of many years, to be highly credible.
You don't, that's fine. I do.
How thoroughly have you examined the evidence? which books on the subject have you read?
First of all I might add that the area I study most is not the theological part but psycology.
I will send you,time allowing, a list of the books I read via pm, simply because the last sentence puts me into thoughts about the reason you used it as an argument, since you did not mention your sources to begin with and as such I prefer not to interpret it as an egotistical argument that tries to make a point by belittling the source.
To your other things.
How are you sure about what these witnesses actually witness? And also why they interpret what they saw the way they did. To clarify things here, I don't imply that the witnesses may have lied, but each person may give a different interpretation of what they saw. What methods did you use to examine them?
People will and can die for their beliefs, simply because they have accepted them deep into their cores. The mind is susceptible in delusions and Christians as any other human mind are no more strong or weak than any other to that. So unless you take personal interviews of the witnesses it's still hard to have something more concrete than the "people witnessed it".
Even if you use witnesses and justify them as a source then you have to accept Buddism as an even more valid religion in that matter to tell you the truth.
In matters of faith the only thing you can give is a high or low possibility since the human mind by its nature will stretch the facts or alter them to suit their particular belief.
I am educated mostly in economics and philosophy, and have studied psychology, sociolgy, and a great many other things as well. I said what i said only to explain that there are others more qualified to provide the arguments that convinced me.
Also my point is that there certainly isn't time to discuss what should probably take years if study, if you are hard case as I was.
Either way, lease send me your list if you would like. I am asking you how many books you have read on the subject of apologetics specifically.
If you would like to know how I judge the credibility of the witnesses, the Tekton site above is a very good start.
People did not die for a BELIEF. They died for what they believed was a FACT. That is not the same thing at all. They died for a certain knowledge they had that they would not deny under penalty of death.
What miracle did Buddha perform that he was Divine? what miracles were attested to by reliable witnesses? Also did Buddha even make such a claim? I find that he did not.
Either way I find much in buddhism that is true, much that is very interesting -- but nothing in Buddhism that is true goes against whether or nort Jesus came back from the dead.
As far as the human mind stretching the facts to support certain beliefs, that's not what the history we are speaking about shows.
In order to disbelieve the witnesses you ahve to believe a few things. I nice encapsulation is here:
"Now, in conclusion, let us see what an unbeliever must believe in consistency with his profession. He must believe that the apostles were either such weak-minded men as to imagine that their crucified Master had been with them, from time to time, during forty days after his burial, had conversed with them, and eaten with them, and that they had every sensible evidence of his resurrection, while in truth he had not been near them, but was still in his sepulchre; or else that they were so wicked and deceitful as to go all over the world preaching that he was risen from the dead, when they knew it was a gross fabrication. Suppose the unbeliever to choose the latter of these alternatives. Then he believes, not only that those men were so singularly attached to this untruth as to give themselves up to all manner of disgrace, and persecutions and labour, for the sake of making all the world believe it, knowing that their own destruction could be the only consequence; but also, what is still more singular, that when they plunged, immediately at the outset of their ministry, into an immense multitude of those who, having lately crucified the Saviour, were full of enmity to his disciples; they succeeded, without learning, eloquence, power, or a single conceivable motive, in making three thousand of them believe that he, whom they had seen on the cross, was indeed alive again; and believe it so fully, as to renounce every thing, and be willing to suffer any thing, for the sake of it, and this on the very spot where the guards that had kept the sepulcher were at hand to tell what was become of the body of Jesus. He must believe, moreover, that although in attempting to propagate a new religion to the exclusion of every other, they were undertaking what was entirely new, and opposed to the views of all nations; although the doctrines they preached were resisted by all the influence of the several priesthoods; all the power of the several governments; all the passions, habits, and prejudices of the people; and all the wit and pride of the philosophers of all nations; although the age was such as insured to their fabrications the most intelligent examination, with the strongest possible disposition to detect them; although, in themselves, these infatuated men were directly the reverse of what such resistance demanded, and, when they commenced, were surrounded by circumstances of the most depressing kind, and by opposers specially exulting in the confidence of their destruction; although the mode they adopted was of all others most calculated to expose their own weakness and dishonesty, and to imbitter the enmity and increase the contempt of their opposers, so that they encountered everywhere the most tremendous persecutions, till torture and death were almost synonymous with the name of Christian; although they had nothing to propose, to Jew or Gentile, as a matter of faith, but what the wisdom of the world ridiculed, and the vice of the world hated, and all men were united in despising; although they had nothing earthly with which to tempt any one to receive their fabrication, except the necessity of an entire change in all his habits and dispositions, and an assurance that tribulations and persecutions must be his portion: Yet when philosophers, with all their learning, and rank, and subtlety, and veneration, could produce no effect on the public mind, these obscure Galileans obtained such influence, throughout the whole extent of the Roman empire, and especially in the most enlightened cities, that, in thirty years, what they themselves (by the supposition) did not believe, they made hundreds of thousands of all classes, philosophers, senators, governors, priests, soldiers, as well as plebeians, believe, and maintain unto death; yea, they planted this doctrine of their own invention so deeply that all the persecutions of three hundred years could not root it up; they established the gospel so permanently that in three hundred years it was the established religion of an empire co-extensive with the known world, and continues still the religion of all civilized nations. This, says the unbeliever, they did simply by their own wit and industry; and yet, he well knows that, preachers of the gospel, with incomparably more learning, with equal industry, in far greater numbers, and in circumstances immeasurably more propitious, have attempted to do something of the same kind among heathen nations, and could never even approximate to their success. Still the apostles had no help but that of their own ingenuity and diligence! Such is the belief of the unbeliever. To escape acknowledging that the apostles were aided by miraculous assistance, he makes them to have possessed in themselves miraculous ability. To get rid of one miracle in the work, he has to make twelve miracles out of the twelve agents of the work. The Christian takes a far different course. "Paul planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase." The weapons of their warfare were not carnal, but mighty through God, to the pulling down of strong holds. To which solution, philosophy or common sense would award the prize of rational decision, it is easy to determine."
A lot of text I know. Sorry. Again all I am asking is, not how you "explain away" the evidence in an a priori manner, but how well do you know the evidence, and how thoroughly you have studied it?
The only thing religion has going for it is that you cannot prove something doesn't exist.
I could tell you that there is an invisible unicorn standing behind you that cannot be felt, heard, tasted, smelled or sensed in any technological, natural, or supernatural way.........and you could not prove me wrong.
Religion is a sicknes, a mind warping, crutch. A series of thoughts and ideals clung too by weaker men and exploited by the evil ones. And while religion has some noble ideas in theory, every great war, tradgedy and massacre can be traced back to some religion, all religions, every one of them have their demons. These arent just my beliefs, they are fact. It doesnt even matter if buddha or whatever fat man was being confused for him prophecized the comming of a white man with blonde hair in blue eyes being born in the heart of isreal. Most people dont even know that the story of Jesus is just a spin off of the story of Osiris and the virgin Isis and her son Horus. A black pharroh in egypt,t he story of jesus is the exact same story, word for word with some key substitutions. The story originated 5000 years before the birth of christ.
This doesnt mean jesus was bullshit or that he was blakc, it just goes to show all religions are fairy tales used to govern uncivilized man and the greatest tragedy is that people still use that shit as a crutch in the world today.
What if you are wrong and there is a God, and Jesus was his son, and was crucified and resurrected? Either these things are facts or they are not. What if you are wrong about the facts?
How do you know you are not?
I have spent a lifetime studying the myths you are discussing, and find your interpretation 9which mine used to be quite similar by the way) to be lacking. How deeply have you studied the claims you are making and the arguments against them, or different interpretations of what you are saying?
The only thing religion has going for it is that you cannot prove something doesn't exist.
I could tell you that there is an invisible unicorn standing behind you that cannot be felt, heard, tasted, smelled or sensed in any technological, natural, or supernatural way.........and you could not prove me wrong.
By the way, his name is Leroy. He likes beets.
How many serious books on apologetics have you read?
Comments
While I believe in Christ, I have studied this story extensively, I find the evidence for this one dubious. The problem is the document referenced probably dates AFTER Christ so it may just be a writing done by Buddhist converts who were making up some literature to fit into their world view.
There is much better evidence that Christ is Lord.
L'Shana Tova!
EDIT: Two much better apologetics sites for ya:
www.tektonics.org/
www.theology.edu/
fishermage.blogspot.com
Aye - I was not suggesting this was evidense. Scripture is enough to undoubtfully declare that Yeshua is the foretold Messiah, yet that was not the point of this discussion.
Since you have studied this story extensively, could you share more infomation than what you've already listed?
Blessings,
MMO migrant.
God does not exist.
All religions are fairy tails spun by aristocracy to control the masses.
Christ was a carpenter/anarchist who led a bunch of rejects into creating religions based on his beliefs.
Never did he perform a miracle. Never was he the son of god [sic - no caps].
Mary was a woman who had an extra-marital affair and blamed the pregnancy on god [god].
You've heard all this before, or maybe you haven't seeing as how you live in the Bible Belt.
Life of an MMORPG "addict"
For 7 years, proving that if you quote "fuck" you won't get banned.
And your evidence for this is...?
But while we're on the subject of Buddha, did you know there's a young boy in Nepal who is believed by many to be the reincarnation of Buddha? And the kid is milking it for all it's worth too. He probably could get rich off of it, but my guess is he's taken a vow of poverty. Because if he didn't it would pretty much destroy the perception.
wow. so you were actually there huh? That must be impressive. So Jesus was only a carpenter and anarchist who led a bunch of rejects into creating a religion that now spans the entire globe and is believed (since the death and resurrection of Christ) by BILLIONs of people; both great and small.
So you believe that Roman citizens who were Christians got hooked on a fairy tale by a "bunch of rejects" to the point that even though they were murdered en masse by Nero they still believed to the very end? To the ones who were impaled on a pole and lit on fire while still alive so that Nero could illuminate his evening banquets...they were engrossed by a Charismatic anarchist?
Jesus said to give to Ceaser what is Ceaser and give to God what is God's. Christ also said to respect your leaders no matter how corrupt they are because God had willed them into office for whatever mysterious purpose and if these leaders sin, God will deal with them in His way...not through our revenge. These are not the words of an anarchist to me.
Trust me....your arguments are severly flawed but I respect your faith on not believing in the obvious
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
wow. so you were actually there huh? That must be impressive. So Jesus was only a carpenter and anarchist who led a bunch of rejects into creating a religion that now spans the entire globe and is believed (since the death and resurrection of Christ) by BILLIONs of people; both great and small.
So you believe that Roman citizens who were Christians got hooked on a fairy tale by a "bunch of rejects" to the point that even though they were murdered en masse by Nero they still believed to the very end? To the ones who were impaled on a pole and lit on fire while still alive so that Nero could illuminate his evening banquets...they were engrossed by a Charismatic anarchist?
Jesus said to give to Ceaser what is Ceaser and give to God what is God's. Christ also said to respect your leaders no matter how corrupt they are because God had willed them into office for whatever mysterious purpose and if these leaders sin, God will deal with them in His way...not through our revenge. These are not the words of an anarchist to me.
Trust me....your arguments are severly flawed but I respect your faith on not believing in the obvious
Whoa whoa whoa whoa...
All I got to say is...Scripture. Book chapter and verse!
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
wow. so you were actually there huh? That must be impressive. So Jesus was only a carpenter and anarchist who led a bunch of rejects into creating a religion that now spans the entire globe and is believed (since the death and resurrection of Christ) by BILLIONs of people; both great and small.
So you believe that Roman citizens who were Christians got hooked on a fairy tale by a "bunch of rejects" to the point that even though they were murdered en masse by Nero they still believed to the very end? To the ones who were impaled on a pole and lit on fire while still alive so that Nero could illuminate his evening banquets...they were engrossed by a Charismatic anarchist?
Jesus said to give to Ceaser what is Ceaser and give to God what is God's. Christ also said to respect your leaders no matter how corrupt they are because God had willed them into office for whatever mysterious purpose and if these leaders sin, God will deal with them in His way...not through our revenge. These are not the words of an anarchist to me.
Trust me....your arguments are severly flawed but I respect your faith on not believing in the obvious
Whoa whoa whoa whoa...
All I got to say is...Scripture. Book chapter and verse!
I find it ironic that the great counter-argument to theism has always been that religion is a fabricated tool used to control the masses, yet here we have a theist openly acknowledging such sentiment dating all the way back to Christ.
Perhaps Christ simply wanted to be perfectly matyred, forgiving his enemies...
O_o o_O
Is there a point though in debating religion in the first place?
For every point a theist can make about his religion there is always a counter point and vice versa. Quoting scriptures won't change that fact in the slightest wether god or jesus is real or not. So unless some dead people come back to life and tell us what is there, everyone can believe whatever deity they so choose including cthulhu if they are feeling kinky.
I never really get the whole "my religion is better than yours" thing. I mean if you believe it what do you care what the others believe?
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Entertaining stuff. Reminds me of the gifted people who find Jesus face on toast or the Virgin Mary on a milk carton.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
probably time that more religious nutjob threads appear on the forum as the election threads really have died back. Only one on the first page.
and Jesus appears in the most remarkable places
But what if someone DID come back to life? If that's true, wouldn't that make what that someone said fairly important and worth considering?
Christianity is based upon witness testimony of people who saw such an event and shared it with one another, and the world.
Christianity all comes down to the credibility of those witnesses and that testimony. I find more than sufficient evidence for that.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Verses to honor wicked leaders and obey them unless the law is contrary to Scripture:
Romans 13
1st Tim 2
Heb 13:17
I'm sure there are more but those are the three that I remember.
Jesus hit it from an angle in His Sermon on the Mount..
Blessings,
MMO migrant.
The blog has been removed, just to let you know OP.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
But what if someone DID come back to life? If that's true, wouldn't that make what that someone said fairly important and worth considering?
If someone did come back to life it would be nice. By dead here I mean the scientific version most commonly used, that is brain and heart not functioning. If that could be proven then yes it would be important.
Christianity is based upon witness testimony of people who saw such an event and shared it with one another, and the world.
Testimory and witnessing by whom? Jesus apostoles? Common people that most of them could be tricked anyway by simple "miracles"?
Christianity all comes down to the credibility of those witnesses and that testimony. I find more than sufficient evidence for that.
Communal reinforcement is not an unknown practice nor is selective thinking.
Scripture and testimories of believers are not "evidence". You can say that you base your belief in such things but those don't prove anything really other than read them as part of your religion.
http://www.skepdic.com/comreinf.htmlJust to add that I am not saying here that your belief in that is wrong or anything like that. But you can't really prove your religion is the "correct one". Simple as that.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Hmmm, so if I testify that my body is full of tiny trapped spirits and I need to be dropped into a volcano to free them and let my real self surface and I do research in scriptures to back it up I should be good to go.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
But what if someone DID come back to life? If that's true, wouldn't that make what that someone said fairly important and worth considering?
If someone did come back to life it would be nice. By dead here I mean the scientific version most commonly used, that is brain and heart not functioning. If that could be proven then yes it would be important.
Christianity is based upon witness testimony of people who saw such an event and shared it with one another, and the world.
Testimory and witnessing by whom? Jesus apostoles? Common people that most of them could be tricked anyway by simple "miracles"?
Christianity all comes down to the credibility of those witnesses and that testimony. I find more than sufficient evidence for that.
Communal reinforcement is not an unknown practice nor is selective thinking.
Scripture and testimories of believers are not "evidence". You can say that you base your belief in such things but those don't prove anything really other than read them as part of your religion.
http://www.skepdic.com/comreinf.htmlJust to add that I am not saying here that your belief in that is wrong or anything like that. But you can't really prove your religion is the "correct one". Simple as that.
Those witnesses were willing to die for what they believed, and not one of them cracked under pressure. They didn't die for a "belief," but what they had witnessed. Hundreds of people witnessed this, and were changed by it.
Witness testimony certainly IS evidence, It is NOT scientific evidence, but it is certainly historical evidence. You judge such testimony by the credibility of the witnesses. I find the witnesses, after evaluating them extensively over a period of many years, to be highly credible.
You don't, that's fine. I do.
How thoroughly have you examined the evidence? which books on the subject have you read?
fishermage.blogspot.com
No, but if hundreds of people testify that you said you would die and be resurrected, and then you die in front of witnesses and then hundreds see you after seeing you dead, and then those same hundreds are willing to die in the name of that knowledge, then I would say you and they would be fairly credible witnesses.
how carefully have YOU studied the evidence? how many books have you read on the subject?
fishermage.blogspot.com
I want to remind folks that apologetics is NOT my major field of theology. I, after years of study, found enough to my coming to believe in the major tenet of Christiatinity: That Jesus was the unique Son of God and died on the cross and was resurrected.
After that I did my own studies and evaluated the various Christian doctrines and found I agree with some but not others, as all Christians of the various denominatons will understand, Contracry to popular belief, Christianity is not an organized religion. Various Churches and groups have tried and failed over the centuries to organize it, but God and human reason have seen fit to continually break that down.
The faith is diverse, constantly changing, and alive. My personal views are different than many other Christians, and, as with politics. I hold what is termed a minority view within the "club."
If people wanto to know more about the validity of the faith, however, much better people than I have argued the case. A very good beginning of this discussion can be found here:
www.tektonics.org/nutshell/nutshellhub.html
This is ONLY a beginning; but it's as good a place as any to start.
Also, there's the guy who was one of the people responsible for convincing me of this stuff. Robin Nettlehorst. His site is here:
www.theology.edu/
Robin is more of a full-on theologian rather than just focusing on apologetics (defense of the faith), but he is a bright man with a thorough knowledge of the ancient languages that the texts were written in. He's also a really nice guy.
For most of my life I did NOT believe until I felt challenged enough to actually challenge the evidence myself. In the end, Christ won.
Let me repeat in no uncertain terms that my listing these sites is an endorsement or agreement with everything found on them. I suggest them only as a good beginning because they discuss major issues as well as are a good place to start your own quest for the Holy Grail.
I suggest and respect everyone to come to his or her own conclusions on these matters.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Religion is a sicknes, a mind warping, crutch. A series of thoughts and ideals clung too by weaker men and exploited by the evil ones. And while religion has some noble ideas in theory, every great war, tradgedy and massacre can be traced back to some religion, all religions, every one of them have their demons. These arent just my beliefs, they are fact.
It doesnt even matter if buddha or whatever fat man was being confused for him prophecized the comming of a white man with blonde hair in blue eyes being born in the heart of isreal. Most people dont even know that the story of Jesus is just a spin off of the story of Osiris and the virgin Isis and her son Horus. A black pharroh in egypt,t he story of jesus is the exact same story, word for word with some key substitutions. The story originated 5000 years before the birth of christ.
This doesnt mean jesus was bullshit or that he was blakc, it just goes to show all religions are fairy tales used to govern uncivilized man and the greatest tragedy is that people still use that shit as a crutch in the world today.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
But what if someone DID come back to life? If that's true, wouldn't that make what that someone said fairly important and worth considering?
If someone did come back to life it would be nice. By dead here I mean the scientific version most commonly used, that is brain and heart not functioning. If that could be proven then yes it would be important.
Christianity is based upon witness testimony of people who saw such an event and shared it with one another, and the world.
Testimory and witnessing by whom? Jesus apostoles? Common people that most of them could be tricked anyway by simple "miracles"?
Christianity all comes down to the credibility of those witnesses and that testimony. I find more than sufficient evidence for that.
Communal reinforcement is not an unknown practice nor is selective thinking.
Scripture and testimories of believers are not "evidence". You can say that you base your belief in such things but those don't prove anything really other than read them as part of your religion.
http://www.skepdic.com/comreinf.htmlJust to add that I am not saying here that your belief in that is wrong or anything like that. But you can't really prove your religion is the "correct one". Simple as that.
Those witnesses were willing to die for what they believed, and not one of them cracked under pressure. They didn't die for a "belief," but what they had witnessed. Hundreds of people witnessed this, and were changed by it.
Witness testimony certainly IS evidence, It is NOT scientific evidence, but it is certainly historical evidence. You judge such testimony by the credibility of the witnesses. I find the witnesses, after evaluating them extensively over a period of many years, to be highly credible.
You don't, that's fine. I do.
How thoroughly have you examined the evidence? which books on the subject have you read?
First of all I might add that the area I study most is not the theological part but psycology.
I will send you,time allowing, a list of the books I read via pm, simply because the last sentence puts me into thoughts about the reason you used it as an argument, since you did not mention your sources to begin with and as such I prefer not to interpret it as an egotistical argument that tries to make a point by belittling the source.
To your other things.
How are you sure about what these witnesses actually witness? And also why they interpret what they saw the way they did. To clarify things here, I don't imply that the witnesses may have lied, but each person may give a different interpretation of what they saw. What methods did you use to examine them?
People will and can die for their beliefs, simply because they have accepted them deep into their cores. The mind is susceptible in delusions and Christians as any other human mind are no more strong or weak than any other to that. So unless you take personal interviews of the witnesses it's still hard to have something more concrete than the "people witnessed it".
Even if you use witnesses and justify them as a source then you have to accept Buddism as an even more valid religion in that matter to tell you the truth.
In matters of faith the only thing you can give is a high or low possibility since the human mind by its nature will stretch the facts or alter them to suit their particular belief.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
But what if someone DID come back to life? If that's true, wouldn't that make what that someone said fairly important and worth considering?
If someone did come back to life it would be nice. By dead here I mean the scientific version most commonly used, that is brain and heart not functioning. If that could be proven then yes it would be important.
Christianity is based upon witness testimony of people who saw such an event and shared it with one another, and the world.
Testimory and witnessing by whom? Jesus apostoles? Common people that most of them could be tricked anyway by simple "miracles"?
Christianity all comes down to the credibility of those witnesses and that testimony. I find more than sufficient evidence for that.
Communal reinforcement is not an unknown practice nor is selective thinking.
Scripture and testimories of believers are not "evidence". You can say that you base your belief in such things but those don't prove anything really other than read them as part of your religion.
http://www.skepdic.com/comreinf.htmlJust to add that I am not saying here that your belief in that is wrong or anything like that. But you can't really prove your religion is the "correct one". Simple as that.
Those witnesses were willing to die for what they believed, and not one of them cracked under pressure. They didn't die for a "belief," but what they had witnessed. Hundreds of people witnessed this, and were changed by it.
Witness testimony certainly IS evidence, It is NOT scientific evidence, but it is certainly historical evidence. You judge such testimony by the credibility of the witnesses. I find the witnesses, after evaluating them extensively over a period of many years, to be highly credible.
You don't, that's fine. I do.
How thoroughly have you examined the evidence? which books on the subject have you read?
First of all I might add that the area I study most is not the theological part but psycology.
I will send you,time allowing, a list of the books I read via pm, simply because the last sentence puts me into thoughts about the reason you used it as an argument, since you did not mention your sources to begin with and as such I prefer not to interpret it as an egotistical argument that tries to make a point by belittling the source.
To your other things.
How are you sure about what these witnesses actually witness? And also why they interpret what they saw the way they did. To clarify things here, I don't imply that the witnesses may have lied, but each person may give a different interpretation of what they saw. What methods did you use to examine them?
People will and can die for their beliefs, simply because they have accepted them deep into their cores. The mind is susceptible in delusions and Christians as any other human mind are no more strong or weak than any other to that. So unless you take personal interviews of the witnesses it's still hard to have something more concrete than the "people witnessed it".
Even if you use witnesses and justify them as a source then you have to accept Buddism as an even more valid religion in that matter to tell you the truth.
In matters of faith the only thing you can give is a high or low possibility since the human mind by its nature will stretch the facts or alter them to suit their particular belief.
I am educated mostly in economics and philosophy, and have studied psychology, sociolgy, and a great many other things as well. I said what i said only to explain that there are others more qualified to provide the arguments that convinced me.
Also my point is that there certainly isn't time to discuss what should probably take years if study, if you are hard case as I was.
Either way, lease send me your list if you would like. I am asking you how many books you have read on the subject of apologetics specifically.
If you would like to know how I judge the credibility of the witnesses, the Tekton site above is a very good start.
People did not die for a BELIEF. They died for what they believed was a FACT. That is not the same thing at all. They died for a certain knowledge they had that they would not deny under penalty of death.
What miracle did Buddha perform that he was Divine? what miracles were attested to by reliable witnesses? Also did Buddha even make such a claim? I find that he did not.
Either way I find much in buddhism that is true, much that is very interesting -- but nothing in Buddhism that is true goes against whether or nort Jesus came back from the dead.
As far as the human mind stretching the facts to support certain beliefs, that's not what the history we are speaking about shows.
In order to disbelieve the witnesses you ahve to believe a few things. I nice encapsulation is here:
"Now, in conclusion, let us see what an unbeliever must believe in consistency with his profession. He must believe that the apostles were either such weak-minded men as to imagine that their crucified Master had been with them, from time to time, during forty days after his burial, had conversed with them, and eaten with them, and that they had every sensible evidence of his resurrection, while in truth he had not been near them, but was still in his sepulchre; or else that they were so wicked and deceitful as to go all over the world preaching that he was risen from the dead, when they knew it was a gross fabrication. Suppose the unbeliever to choose the latter of these alternatives. Then he believes, not only that those men were so singularly attached to this untruth as to give themselves up to all manner of disgrace, and persecutions and labour, for the sake of making all the world believe it, knowing that their own destruction could be the only consequence; but also, what is still more singular, that when they plunged, immediately at the outset of their ministry, into an immense multitude of those who, having lately crucified the Saviour, were full of enmity to his disciples; they succeeded, without learning, eloquence, power, or a single conceivable motive, in making three thousand of them believe that he, whom they had seen on the cross, was indeed alive again; and believe it so fully, as to renounce every thing, and be willing to suffer any thing, for the sake of it, and this on the very spot where the guards that had kept the sepulcher were at hand to tell what was become of the body of Jesus. He must believe, moreover, that although in attempting to propagate a new religion to the exclusion of every other, they were undertaking what was entirely new, and opposed to the views of all nations; although the doctrines they preached were resisted by all the influence of the several priesthoods; all the power of the several governments; all the passions, habits, and prejudices of the people; and all the wit and pride of the philosophers of all nations; although the age was such as insured to their fabrications the most intelligent examination, with the strongest possible disposition to detect them; although, in themselves, these infatuated men were directly the reverse of what such resistance demanded, and, when they commenced, were surrounded by circumstances of the most depressing kind, and by opposers specially exulting in the confidence of their destruction; although the mode they adopted was of all others most calculated to expose their own weakness and dishonesty, and to imbitter the enmity and increase the contempt of their opposers, so that they encountered everywhere the most tremendous persecutions, till torture and death were almost synonymous with the name of Christian; although they had nothing to propose, to Jew or Gentile, as a matter of faith, but what the wisdom of the world ridiculed, and the vice of the world hated, and all men were united in despising; although they had nothing earthly with which to tempt any one to receive their fabrication, except the necessity of an entire change in all his habits and dispositions, and an assurance that tribulations and persecutions must be his portion: Yet when philosophers, with all their learning, and rank, and subtlety, and veneration, could produce no effect on the public mind, these obscure Galileans obtained such influence, throughout the whole extent of the Roman empire, and especially in the most enlightened cities, that, in thirty years, what they themselves (by the supposition) did not believe, they made hundreds of thousands of all classes, philosophers, senators, governors, priests, soldiers, as well as plebeians, believe, and maintain unto death; yea, they planted this doctrine of their own invention so deeply that all the persecutions of three hundred years could not root it up; they established the gospel so permanently that in three hundred years it was the established religion of an empire co-extensive with the known world, and continues still the religion of all civilized nations. This, says the unbeliever, they did simply by their own wit and industry; and yet, he well knows that, preachers of the gospel, with incomparably more learning, with equal industry, in far greater numbers, and in circumstances immeasurably more propitious, have attempted to do something of the same kind among heathen nations, and could never even approximate to their success. Still the apostles had no help but that of their own ingenuity and diligence! Such is the belief of the unbeliever. To escape acknowledging that the apostles were aided by miraculous assistance, he makes them to have possessed in themselves miraculous ability. To get rid of one miracle in the work, he has to make twelve miracles out of the twelve agents of the work. The Christian takes a far different course. "Paul planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase." The weapons of their warfare were not carnal, but mighty through God, to the pulling down of strong holds. To which solution, philosophy or common sense would award the prize of rational decision, it is easy to determine."
A lot of text I know. Sorry. Again all I am asking is, not how you "explain away" the evidence in an a priori manner, but how well do you know the evidence, and how thoroughly you have studied it?
fishermage.blogspot.com
The only thing religion has going for it is that you cannot prove something doesn't exist.
I could tell you that there is an invisible unicorn standing behind you that cannot be felt, heard, tasted, smelled or sensed in any technological, natural, or supernatural way.........and you could not prove me wrong.
By the way, his name is Leroy. He likes beets.
The Official God FAQ
What if you are wrong and there is a God, and Jesus was his son, and was crucified and resurrected? Either these things are facts or they are not. What if you are wrong about the facts?
How do you know you are not?
I have spent a lifetime studying the myths you are discussing, and find your interpretation 9which mine used to be quite similar by the way) to be lacking. How deeply have you studied the claims you are making and the arguments against them, or different interpretations of what you are saying?
fishermage.blogspot.com
How many serious books on apologetics have you read?
fishermage.blogspot.com
short answer, they've read NOTHING, only been told by someone what to think.
most likely some dumb ass biology proff who starts his semester by emphatically stating that evolution is a FACT, no longer a theory. oh nm.