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Tank CLasses without shields
Gregtheexcon
Member Posts: 203
I see alot of contreversy in game about tank classes not being any good unless there shield users. This has been floating around alot lately. Now, granted there ment for tanks but if you know how to play and step out of the box, you can do some interesting things. Below are sevral ss's of scenarios I played my SM in. The first one was my lvl 20 with sword and shield. The other 2 are when I switched to 2 hander. (I believe that its a decent dpser)
I mean if a player can put out good damage, with better survivability (armour) whas the problem. I dunno, but this is just to show those people with SM's sitting on the fence on sword and board or 2 hander, either 1 can be good.
BEFORE anyone goes on abou it just being damage charts, SM are almost single target hitting (I almost never use Wind Gust unless I really need to, I like keeping my target close unless hes on my healer) So yeah, this is impresive regardless, for single target damage.
http://www.wegame.com/view/Deathrowinmate_M_001/
http://www.wegame.com/view/Deathrowinmate_M_002/
http://www.wegame.com/view/Deathrowinmate_M_003/
Enjoy : )
Comments
It's a fact, if you are playing a offensive tank being hit by a same level player or mob you will take a whole lot more damage than someone who is defensive specced.
What this means, if you specc as some people wielding two handers have done such as Str>weapons >wound>toughness>intiative then expect to be hit a lot and hard when it does connect. Those who have chosen the Defensive route as Wounds>toughness>strength>intiative> along with shield and board (+% block chance) weaponskill remain king on the RvR field and PvE (in WOW, the offensive always wins in War it doesn't).
I know many of healers who hate seeing people with two handers in their hands marching into RvR or PvE because it signifies that they will be throwing more heals on them then the mdps due to them tanking a mob that knocks the hell out of them.
Again, and this one is my opinion, while the two hander offensive specs look cool as of now they don't really work for tanks that were made to be defensive (Chosen, Black Orcs Sword masters and Iron breakers) in nature (may change when Black Guards hit as they are categorized as offensive tanks).
On a note do a comparison of the broken two hander class Swordmasters in comparison to their Black Orc mirror big difference between them when one has a shield and the other has a two hander (Swordmasters get owned 80% of the time in one on one when fighting a shield carrying Black Orc).
Deathrowinmate vs Robocop, that sounds like a B titled movie bro
I am sorry but how exactly doing more damage prove you are a better tank? Tanking is ALL about tackling the enemy, stop him from reaching the squishes and keep them smashing on you while your squishes do their job.And yes, I know WAR does not track that kind of contribution in a battle.
But honestly, a good tank, for me, is one that will keep the enemies off the casters, entangling several enemies at the same time (I have seen IBs going 1 Vs 5 and keeping all 5 enemies steadily pummeling on HIM while the BW were making a carnage around him and the healers were keeping him up) and so on.
I know especially in PvP this can be problematic and a single tank cannot do that much, but that is supposed to be the tank job, now if you can do this with a 2 hander, then sure. go ahead and do it.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
OK, so you missed here, im sorry you can't read correctly.
What my post was saying I have better survivability then lets say a WH. How does that mean the healers gonna be throwing more heals my way? That makes no sense at all. Since he is squisher (by alot) hes gonna drop much faster and harder. So your healer thoery is a loss. Those healers your talking about, apparently never played this class.
When goin through the hoeth tree, at lvl 30 I drain 539 Spiritual resist, seeing how all my attacks are spirit based, they do not defend well against them. AND you brought up 1 on 1, this is funny cause yes, a BO can come out on top most of the time. But WE are a joke, Chosen are a joke, Magus, herder, sorceress, maurader, all drop in front of me (at this lvl may change at 40) Its not cause they suck, its because of the damage I can do while taking physical damage reduced by 50 pct and magic by 50 pct. So yeah, but thats 1 on 1 and I know you don't want to discuss that.
To the other guy, what the chart I showed was displaying was that a SM with a 2 hander can put up just as much damage as a supposed actual dps class, thats what its tehre for. I am just providing PROOF that a SM in RVR can be a valueable asset WITH a 2 hander. Just because I join a scenario does not mean there not going to let other tank specced classes in, and if I can maintain high damage like a dps does, whats the diffrence.
SM's are deadly with 2 handers, don't believe me join Dark Craag as Destro and I can show you first hand what they can do.
Enjoy : )
I am lvl 25 SM going down Khaine spec. I went Hoeth to get the Armor skill.
1 on 1 vs Witch Elf I can win - against 2 witch elves I die fast - cant wait for the patch that nerfs their ignore 100% armor skill back to ignore 50%.
Really its my choice how I play my tank. The khaine path is designed for two-handers with skills that can only be used with a greatsword.
I use the whirlwind skill all the time - PvE and PvP - but then I like to break through the front lines and disrupt them.
As for tanking people off your healer - any decent opponent would ignore the tank and go the healer anyways.
But it terms of survivability - yes sword and board - you get parry & block and block works on spells. With the greatsword I only get parry.
As a tank one of our roles is to take down the MDPS classes, before they can take down the healers - and the two handed sword does that faster than the sword and board.
So its a trade-off, and personal preference as to which style you play.
[QUOTE]OK, so you missed here, im sorry you can't read correctly.
What my post was saying I have better survivability then lets say a WH. How does that mean the healers gonna be throwing more heals my way? That makes no sense at all. Since he is squisher (by alot) hes gonna drop much faster and harder. So your healer thoery is a loss. Those healers your talking about, apparently never played this class.
When goin through the hoeth tree, at lvl 30 I drain 539 Spiritual resist, seeing how all my attacks are spirit based, they do not defend well against them. AND you brought up 1 on 1, this is funny cause yes, a BO can come out on top most of the time. But WE are a joke, Chosen are a joke, Magus, herder, sorceress, maurader, all drop in front of me (at this lvl may change at 40) Its not cause they suck, its because of the damage I can do while taking physical damage reduced by 50 pct and magic by 50 pct. So yeah, but thats 1 on 1 and I know you don't want to discuss that.
To the other guy, what the chart I showed was displaying was that a SM with a 2 hander can put up just as much damage as a supposed actual dps class, thats what its tehre for. I am just providing PROOF that a SM in RVR can be a valueable asset WITH a 2 hander. Just because I join a scenario does not mean there not going to let other tank specced classes in, and if I can maintain high damage like a dps does, whats the diffrence.
SM's are deadly with 2 handers, don't believe me join Dark Craag as Destro and I can show you first hand what they can do.[/QUOTE]
Nice to see someone trying to think out of the box for a change in a PvP game, where unconventional ideas can work very well against the typical.
But you know, youre gonna get "Dude, you are playing this game ALL wrong. The Devs didn't mean for you to tank without a shield. Could you please play it right or I won't waste my heals on you."
You'd probably be better off saving this style of play with your guild, or be laughed off the battlefield.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Interesting. I have always held the opinion that if you want to play a DPS class play a DPS class, don't try to make a tank into a DPS class.
I might have to try this out with the Dark Elf tank and see how it goes though.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Handy if there's too many tanks in a group.
You are confusing "better survivability" with "survivability". First is a relative term, that means you can live few seconds longer than a squishy caster. Shield gives you way more survivability than just extra armor and possibly health.
Also, keep in mind that if someone is dieing rather quickly when you are beating on them with your mighty 2-hander, it might be because your group is helping you kill them. Ranged dps class is capable of killing in 2-3 hits. They can kill equal level mobs before they run up to them. Even with 2-handers and being speced into "dps", you are nowhere close to actual dps classes on damage.
If you enjoy playing a DPS class, pick one of non-tank classes. They might not look graphically quite what you want, but in the long run you will be happier.
Being on top of the damage or healing chart, does not mean much. I cannot say if you were just farming kills while getting heals (healers tend to heal tanks more), while the rest of your team was actually trying to win playing objectives, which do not show up on the score board.
For instance, in Phoenix Gate scenario when I play Witch Elf, I usually run flags and do not have time to do damage. At the end of the game I might be at the bottom of the chart, but I know that it was I who won that game and got extra renown for my team.
It appears based on his description of his main, he likes:
A 2 handed weapon, heavier armor, and he likes to be in the fray mixing it up. What class would you recommend he play to be 'happier in the long run'? Bright Wizard? Shadow Warrior? Warpriest? Oh wait.. Engineer! Thats it! There is nothing close to what he plays now that does what he wants to do while he is playing.
He could roll a Choppa or a .. oh wait. Mythic scrapped FOUR classes so I guess the only VIABLE 2 hander for the Order side is... (it's ok.. you can say it now, we already know it) Swordmaster.
While you may argue as many traditionalists do, he is playing PvP "wrong", he is playing it exactly as he should based on his preferences.
He may not be playing the way Mythic developers INTENDED, but he sure is playing the way they IMPLEMENTED it. With these classes, it's all he has left.
You call it a tank, he calls it a heavy dps role. If they didn't mean for Swordmasters to wield 2handers, why would developers give that to him as an option? They didnt give him a wand and say 'Ok, now go cast'.
Based on the way HE'S playing it, he is right and you are wrong.
"TO MICHAEL!"
You are confusing "better survivability" with "survivability". First is a relative term, that means you can live few seconds longer than a squishy caster. Shield gives you way more survivability than just extra armor and possibly health.
Also, keep in mind that if someone is dieing rather quickly when you are beating on them with your mighty 2-hander, it might be because your group is helping you kill them. Ranged dps class is capable of killing in 2-3 hits. They can kill equal level mobs before they run up to them. Even with 2-handers and being speced into "dps", you are nowhere close to actual dps classes on damage.
If you enjoy playing a DPS class, pick one of non-tank classes. They might not look graphically quite what you want, but in the long run you will be happier.
Being on top of the damage or healing chart, does not mean much. I cannot say if you were just farming kills while getting heals (healers tend to heal tanks more), while the rest of your team was actually trying to win playing objectives, which do not show up on the score board.
For instance, in Phoenix Gate scenario when I play Witch Elf, I usually run flags and do not have time to do damage. At the end of the game I might be at the bottom of the chart, but I know that it was I who won that game and got extra renown for my team.
Before I start im lvl 31 right now, not 40, anything can change at that lvl.
Actually, most of the time im in the front line, when I go for the objectives is when I get my solo kills (If you look at that stat on my ss you will see that I had a few) because everyone else is "farming".
Now I know where your coming from, about this, of course a SM cannot always out dps pure dps classes, but if they could, why would someone roll something else? Having that extra bit of armour makes me incredibly good at disrupting the back line when sword and board tanks try to stop me from crushing there weakling casters and healers.
I front line battle when we have 3 WH, cause they should be controlling there backline, if they don't then I will. In the front line I target DoK's and WE's. I target everything but BO and Chosens unless there the only one around.
Heres a screen of my tactics and tree, and look at that armour value
http://www.wegame.com/view/Warhammer_char_spec/
Now, when im in the back line I can be focused fired by the usal melee dps, but do to my excellent reduction, that sorc is dead, that magus is dead, that healer is running for his life and sometimes gets away (can't always get em, anyone who tries knows)
But between my tactics alone, those are 3 DoTs, 1 is always a given, the other 2 go off quite often in battle. And those are just procs off me already hitting them, not using a 1.5 CD. So when my Ensorcelled blow lands (first attack I use on every chain) hits them for 300 (over 400 if the got hit by my Spirit reduc) w/o criting, then set's off these thats 600 damage in 9 seconds, while im still using my melee attacks. Granted they don't always go off, but by the time I go from normal stance through back to normal, there all went off.
I single target damage mostly, thats why the damage chart can be applicable here, I inflict lots of damage and fast. (Once again, may not be the best DPS out there but I sure as hell bring the pain)
Enjoy : )
Your missing the whole point here man, you put up a thread entitled tank class without shields and we gave you a lot of input on it. Now, you can take this with a grain of salt if you want to, in PvE and RvR "You" with a teo hander will not be the main tank even though you label yourself as such and against even geared, even leveled players you will more than likely get owned if they are within a group (squishy that is).
Hell I know Shamans that have been getting the same numbers as you and have been in the top three ranks (along with DPS casters) in them scenarios (it means nothing). Swordmaster for a tank in its line can dish out the damage but never as high as a true melee dps, caster or even ranged DPs (as borked as SH are at the moment).
On a side note as well, any class can have the highest damage in a scenario example
Wow, did you even read this thread? Alot of input, really. The only things I have heard are "nice to see others trying outside the box" or "wanna tank be a tank, wanna dps be a dps" and just plain no they don't. Theres no "lot of input"
Your post was a complete waste, cause all you did was show a screen of a shaman doing what I do, something diffrent. He broke the healing mold and obviously did well. Now, heres the point of this thread, people can play however they want, as long as they do 1 task and do it well (or 2 in the case of hybrid DoK's and WP's)
I am a good asset to any team I play on, I really am. Now if for some reason you don't believe me fine, thats your loss. I preform well and have numbers to back it up. I have proof that I can do something other then be a target that doesn't die. I kill things.
Next person that wants to post against me saying im doing something wrong, please give actual information. I can dps tons of damage and survive better then the squisher DPS. Now this is a bad thing because? I storm there back lines drawing the attention of several of them being able to kill at least 1 and taking the attention off my teammates long enought for them to take down some more, this is a bad thing?
Once again, this thread is for those people that just arn't sure, you CAN be effective as a 2 handed user, no matter what anyone says, those charts are proof, proof that I can dps perfectly fine, and seeing how this world runs on proof, someone please prove me wrongg that a 2 handed SM is not effective at all and a waste of space on a team, please prove me wrong
PS:I hate when people talk PVE in an obvious PvP thread, but here we go, the spec I am now I can kill solo champions 2 lvls higher, can a WH do that? a white lion? I only ask cause I am not that high of a lvl on them so im not sure.
Enjoy : )
Are people really suggesting playing a melee DPS?
Order have Witch Hunter and White Lion. All the other DPS classes are Ranged. Bright Wizard, Shadow Hunter, Engineer.
And whilst I had fun playing my Witch Hunter I was just way too squishy.
So its certainly possible to play a tank like a DPS, you dont get the nice debuffs to reduce healing, or put out quite as much damage, but you survive longer as you have heavy armor.
I object to people stereo-typing classes.
Okay first off, I can tell English is not your primary language because you obviously didn't understand shit I just put up there. Two, I'll try instead of commenting on your post what exactly is it you are looking for? Okay..okay SM can put out good damage with surviveability, but guess what, other classes can as well (the Shaman was damaged specced just like you and his surviveability is better because he can heal himself).
I'm not gonna argue about which is better or not as you pay your $15, 50,000 Yuan, Peso, whatever currency you pay with each month it just remains to fact that your surviveability against even level same geared tanks with shields will last longer than you period in the same situations.
And for the record as all players here know, you can get all the damage in the world through player farming, stroking your epeen about your two hander numbers but if you don't capture, you don't win (something you obviously wasn't doing) so give your team mates a hug.
Let me know how you do when you hit level 40, throw up a screen shot of your damage and deaths indicating how you own the squishies and then I'll be convinced. I may even make a whole thread on why people should go two handed Swordmaster and forsake all the other melee dps Order classes.
I'm being sarcastic when I say this (just a warning).
The next time you go to a keep let the Witch Elf or Archmage tank the door, that way you can truly say you didn't stereo type within a MMO that has classes and items in it for specific reasons.