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I'd like to know why no one from mmorpg.com has been invited to this supposed Beta
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This wins the thread.
Both for simplicity and for being 100% correct.
If a member of MMORPG.com was invited to the beta...then they wouldnt even be able to tell you they are in the beta now would they?
Mortemia I suggest you run away from this forum as your common sense will not be welcomed here.
Depends on the NDA. Some non disclosure agreements do allow you to say you're in the beta, but nothing else. Some NDA's don't allow you to disclose that you're in the beta. I haven't read the DF NDA so I don't know if it has such a clause or not.
I was thinking, since these guys are in Sweden, maybe they'd put Swedes in the beta first.
I see claims of a change from Polarization after repeated claims that he intentionally mis-represented the original content. As I did not see collaboration in the thread (though I stopped reading after the first "edit") I am going to go with an inconclusive verdict for now. Finally, I just thought that the devs would likely have their hands full with other things than to read incredibly long bits of nonsense from fanbois and trolls. This feeling was actually reinforced by some of the things that I saw in that thread.
Also, I think that with what I have seen from that thread, I can officially state that DF is not a scam. If what was presented in that thread is true, than they have definitely not been scamming investors, and with no pre-orders, they will not be able to scam players. Thank you.
Welp there ya go. Guess it was one of those you had to be there and watch it moments.
Where did I say anything about DF being a scam or when have I ever? Unless you are assuming that from the cheap shot I took, "with the what else would they be doing remark." That was in jest.
Yes, it most likely was, oh well.
The discussion of scams has been extremely persistant in this forum, so any evidence that pertains to it bears recognizing. The comment was not directed at you, it was more of a general observation. I should have been more clear about that, sorry.
I am a skeptical supporter of DF. I am not a fanboi nor a troll. I seek the truth in every discussion, and I am truly sorry if I mistakenly state a fallacy.
Minus the fact that they said they were up constantly, and you said they were up rarely.
I guess my point with the last few posts is this, I didn't bring my concerns about Darkfall to any board (accept here), I have yet to make a single post on the official DF forums. They were brought to me here on MMORPG. DF fans asked me to look into Darkfall here, in SWG Vets. They started scewing the ratings here, and creating 0 day accounts to do so here.
The SOE SWG boards tried to do the same thing. They tried to bring a fight in the official forums to this largely unregulated space (and it is thankfully to mmorpg.com largely user based conversation, you know, like a sandbox). They failed because they had no interest in the other viewpoint, they only wanted to promote something unsubstantiated.
I don't want you guys to shutup, I don't want you to stop posting. I just want you to know where a previously uncommited guy started 1.5 months ago.
It started with you
.
I said servers were not up alot when I want to play... never said ANYTHIGN about beta invites hardly being up.. whatever that even means.
Also keep in mind im hardly home. Between my full time job.. overtime (get double pay so I work much OT) and my girfriend... I spend 1-3 hours a day at my home pc. So i dont get to play too often... thats all... now I already got warned so i shouldnt discuss such things anymore
While DF representatives stated the game best was up almost constantly. I would assume constantly would appeal to your 1-3 hour window.
Your personal life has no interest to me whatsoever by the way.
I dont care what your interests are or arent... your nobody from nowhere, always were always will be... and dont assume. looks bad for you.
So do yourself a favor.. stop refreshign your email every 5 seconds praying to find that email you believe will fill the empty void in your life and go enjoy the sun or something
I see claims of a change from Polarization after repeated claims that he intentionally mis-represented the original content. As I did not see collaboration in the thread (though I stopped reading after the first "edit") I am going to go with an inconclusive verdict for now. Finally, I just thought that the devs would likely have their hands full with other things than to read incredibly long bits of nonsense from fanbois and trolls. This feeling was actually reinforced by some of the things that I saw in that thread.
Also, I think that with what I have seen from that thread, I can officially state that DF is not a scam. If what was presented in that thread is true, than they have definitely not been scamming investors, and with no pre-orders, they will not be able to scam players. Thank you.
Welp there ya go. Guess it was one of those you had to be there and watch it moments.
Where did I say anything about DF being a scam or when have I ever? Unless you are assuming that from the cheap shot I took, "with the what else would they be doing remark." That was in jest.
Yes, it most likely was, oh well.
The discussion of scams has been extremely persistant in this forum, so any evidence that pertains to it bears recognizing. The comment was not directed at you, it was more of a general observation. I should have been more clear about that, sorry.
No worries here. You are right this forums a mess. LoL.
I wish I could read this thread, but I can't concentrate due to the WAAAAAAAAAAAAAmbulance that's parked in the center with all the bells and whistles on.
Seriously, relax. The game will come out in time. Just because you're not in beta, and because nobody is leaking doesn't mean there is no beta.
How about this one: You prove to me that there is no beta, instead of telling me to prove there is? Sometimes you just have to have faith, punks.
Minus the fact that they said they were up constantly, and you said they were up rarely.
I guess my point with the last few posts is this, I didn't bring my concerns about Darkfall to any board (accept here), I have yet to make a single post on the official DF forums. They were brought to me here on MMORPG. DF fans asked me to look into Darkfall here, in SWG Vets. They started scewing the ratings here, and creating 0 day accounts to do so here.
The SOE SWG boards tried to do the same thing. They tried to bring a fight in the official forums to this largely unregulated space (and it is thankfully to mmorpg.com largely user based conversation, you know, like a sandbox). They failed because they had no interest in the other viewpoint, they only wanted to promote something unsubstantiated.
I don't want you guys to shutup, I don't want you to stop posting. I just want you to know where a previously uncommited guy started 1.5 months ago.
It started with you
.
I said servers were not up alot when I want to play... never said ANYTHIGN about beta invites hardly being up.. whatever that even means.
Also keep in mind im hardly home. Between my full time job.. overtime (get double pay so I work much OT) and my girfriend... I spend 1-3 hours a day at my home pc. So i dont get to play too often... thats all... now I already got warned so i shouldnt discuss such things anymore
While DF representatives stated the game best was up almost constantly. I would assume constantly would appeal to your 1-3 hour window.
Your personal life has no interest to me whatsoever by the way.
I dont care what your interests are or arent... your nobody from nowhere, always were always will be... and dont assume. looks bad for you.
So do yourself a favor.. stop refreshign your email every 5 seconds praying to find that email you believe will fill the empty void in your life and go enjoy the sun or something
I am reading the mmorpg forums. This one and others. I do return to my posts, respond, and then leave them behind the next day. I don't think I have insulted you, but obviously you took it as such. I am talking about a game, you are the one making it personal. Personal, real-life commitments mean little to me when it comes to gaming. Real life comes first, no excuses.
So, personally, you said you have a beta invite. My guess is you might have better things to do then "refreshing every 5 seconds" to do something more productive like let's say, playing Darkfall?
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
Minus the fact that they said they were up constantly, and you said they were up rarely.
I guess my point with the last few posts is this, I didn't bring my concerns about Darkfall to any board (accept here), I have yet to make a single post on the official DF forums. They were brought to me here on MMORPG. DF fans asked me to look into Darkfall here, in SWG Vets. They started scewing the ratings here, and creating 0 day accounts to do so here.
The SOE SWG boards tried to do the same thing. They tried to bring a fight in the official forums to this largely unregulated space (and it is thankfully to mmorpg.com largely user based conversation, you know, like a sandbox). They failed because they had no interest in the other viewpoint, they only wanted to promote something unsubstantiated.
I don't want you guys to shutup, I don't want you to stop posting. I just want you to know where a previously uncommited guy started 1.5 months ago.
It started with you
.
I said servers were not up alot when I want to play... never said ANYTHIGN about beta invites hardly being up.. whatever that even means.
Also keep in mind im hardly home. Between my full time job.. overtime (get double pay so I work much OT) and my girfriend... I spend 1-3 hours a day at my home pc. So i dont get to play too often... thats all... now I already got warned so i shouldnt discuss such things anymore
While DF representatives stated the game best was up almost constantly. I would assume constantly would appeal to your 1-3 hour window.
Your personal life has no interest to me whatsoever by the way.
I dont care what your interests are or arent... your nobody from nowhere, always were always will be... and dont assume. looks bad for you.
So do yourself a favor.. stop refreshign your email every 5 seconds praying to find that email you believe will fill the empty void in your life and go enjoy the sun or something
I am reading the mmorpg forums. This one and others. I do return to my posts, respond, and then leave them behind the next day. I don't think I have insulted you, but obviously you took it as such. I am talking about a game, you are the one making it personal. Personal, real-life commitments mean little to me when it comes to gaming. Real life comes first, no excuses.
So, personally, you said you have a beta invite. My guess is you might have better things to do then "refreshing every 5 seconds" to do something more productive like let's say, playing Darkfall?
You havent insulted me... your incapable of it... trust me
and im at work?? I cant play beta... or ANYTHIGN when im at work can I? Please try and keep up
Just gonna go ahead and QFT again.
Really anything after this is just trolling back and forth between fanbois and trolls.
This post clearly answers the OP 100%
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
Minus the fact that they said they were up constantly, and you said they were up rarely.
I guess my point with the last few posts is this, I didn't bring my concerns about Darkfall to any board (accept here), I have yet to make a single post on the official DF forums. They were brought to me here on MMORPG. DF fans asked me to look into Darkfall here, in SWG Vets. They started scewing the ratings here, and creating 0 day accounts to do so here.
The SOE SWG boards tried to do the same thing. They tried to bring a fight in the official forums to this largely unregulated space (and it is thankfully to mmorpg.com largely user based conversation, you know, like a sandbox). They failed because they had no interest in the other viewpoint, they only wanted to promote something unsubstantiated.
I don't want you guys to shutup, I don't want you to stop posting. I just want you to know where a previously uncommited guy started 1.5 months ago.
It started with you
.
I said servers were not up alot when I want to play... never said ANYTHIGN about beta invites hardly being up.. whatever that even means.
Also keep in mind im hardly home. Between my full time job.. overtime (get double pay so I work much OT) and my girfriend... I spend 1-3 hours a day at my home pc. So i dont get to play too often... thats all... now I already got warned so i shouldnt discuss such things anymore
While DF representatives stated the game best was up almost constantly. I would assume constantly would appeal to your 1-3 hour window.
Your personal life has no interest to me whatsoever by the way.
I dont care what your interests are or arent... your nobody from nowhere, always were always will be... and dont assume. looks bad for you.
So do yourself a favor.. stop refreshign your email every 5 seconds praying to find that email you believe will fill the empty void in your life and go enjoy the sun or something
I am reading the mmorpg forums. This one and others. I do return to my posts, respond, and then leave them behind the next day. I don't think I have insulted you, but obviously you took it as such. I am talking about a game, you are the one making it personal. Personal, real-life commitments mean little to me when it comes to gaming. Real life comes first, no excuses.
So, personally, you said you have a beta invite. My guess is you might have better things to do then "refreshing every 5 seconds" to do something more productive like let's say, playing Darkfall?
You havent insulted me... your incapable of it... trust me
and im at work?? I cant play beta... or ANYTHIGN when im at work can I? Please try and keep up
If you are at work, why not try working? Maybe then you won't need to put in the overtime. By the way, in your previous post, you did not say you were at work, so why not try to keep up with yourself. The difference between you an I, is when I am at work, I work. When I insult someone, I don't DB around it in replies, and when I say I don't give a damn about your personal life. I mean it.
So go back to work.
In other words, talk about the game, for once.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
Just gonna go ahead and QFT again.
Really anything after this is just trolling back and forth between fanbois and trolls.
This post clearly answers the OP 100%
Well since theres not a single leak anywhere to be found, and theyre clinging to their NDA to cover their F&F only beta, if even that, one can assume theyre once again being shady and misleading. Not that anyone should be suprised, theyve been yanking chains for 8 years now...
Just gonna go ahead and QFT again.
Really anything after this is just trolling back and forth between fanbois and trolls.
This post clearly answers the OP 100%
Well since theres not a single leak anywhere to be found, and theyre clinging to their NDA to cover their F&F only beta, if even that, one can assume theyre once again being shady and misleading. Not that anyone should be suprised, theyve been yanking chains for 8 years now...
I know one of the F's is fanny...is the other face?
Too bad our local DF beta tester is at work, posting away...Otherwise we might get a straight answer.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
Minus the fact that they said they were up constantly, and you said they were up rarely.
I guess my point with the last few posts is this, I didn't bring my concerns about Darkfall to any board (accept here), I have yet to make a single post on the official DF forums. They were brought to me here on MMORPG. DF fans asked me to look into Darkfall here, in SWG Vets. They started scewing the ratings here, and creating 0 day accounts to do so here.
The SOE SWG boards tried to do the same thing. They tried to bring a fight in the official forums to this largely unregulated space (and it is thankfully to mmorpg.com largely user based conversation, you know, like a sandbox). They failed because they had no interest in the other viewpoint, they only wanted to promote something unsubstantiated.
I don't want you guys to shutup, I don't want you to stop posting. I just want you to know where a previously uncommited guy started 1.5 months ago.
It started with you
.
I said servers were not up alot when I want to play... never said ANYTHIGN about beta invites hardly being up.. whatever that even means.
Also keep in mind im hardly home. Between my full time job.. overtime (get double pay so I work much OT) and my girfriend... I spend 1-3 hours a day at my home pc. So i dont get to play too often... thats all... now I already got warned so i shouldnt discuss such things anymore
While DF representatives stated the game best was up almost constantly. I would assume constantly would appeal to your 1-3 hour window.
Your personal life has no interest to me whatsoever by the way.
I dont care what your interests are or arent... your nobody from nowhere, always were always will be... and dont assume. looks bad for you.
So do yourself a favor.. stop refreshign your email every 5 seconds praying to find that email you believe will fill the empty void in your life and go enjoy the sun or something
I am reading the mmorpg forums. This one and others. I do return to my posts, respond, and then leave them behind the next day. I don't think I have insulted you, but obviously you took it as such. I am talking about a game, you are the one making it personal. Personal, real-life commitments mean little to me when it comes to gaming. Real life comes first, no excuses.
So, personally, you said you have a beta invite. My guess is you might have better things to do then "refreshing every 5 seconds" to do something more productive like let's say, playing Darkfall?
You havent insulted me... your incapable of it... trust me
and im at work?? I cant play beta... or ANYTHIGN when im at work can I? Please try and keep up
If you are at work, why not try working? Maybe then you won't need to put in the overtime. By the way, in your previous post, you did not say you were at work, so why not try to keep up with yourself. The difference between you an I, is when I am at work, I work. When I insult someone, I don't DB around it in replies, and when I say I don't give a damn about your personal life. I mean it.
So go back to work.
In other words, talk about the game, for once.
Nor did I say I wasnt at work.. your assumptions again have you looking silly.
I dont need to work OT.. I do because I like to make double time... I am working, I can easily type and work at the same time... I am sorry if you cannot multi-task.
Now if your done making a fool of yourself yes lets return to the topic... thx!!
The trolls are just pissed that they are not in beta.
www.scarybadguys.com
Minus the fact that they said they were up constantly, and you said they were up rarely.
I guess my point with the last few posts is this, I didn't bring my concerns about Darkfall to any board (accept here), I have yet to make a single post on the official DF forums. They were brought to me here on MMORPG. DF fans asked me to look into Darkfall here, in SWG Vets. They started scewing the ratings here, and creating 0 day accounts to do so here.
The SOE SWG boards tried to do the same thing. They tried to bring a fight in the official forums to this largely unregulated space (and it is thankfully to mmorpg.com largely user based conversation, you know, like a sandbox). They failed because they had no interest in the other viewpoint, they only wanted to promote something unsubstantiated.
I don't want you guys to shutup, I don't want you to stop posting. I just want you to know where a previously uncommited guy started 1.5 months ago.
It started with you
.
I said servers were not up alot when I want to play... never said ANYTHIGN about beta invites hardly being up.. whatever that even means.
Also keep in mind im hardly home. Between my full time job.. overtime (get double pay so I work much OT) and my girfriend... I spend 1-3 hours a day at my home pc. So i dont get to play too often... thats all... now I already got warned so i shouldnt discuss such things anymore
While DF representatives stated the game best was up almost constantly. I would assume constantly would appeal to your 1-3 hour window.
Your personal life has no interest to me whatsoever by the way.
I dont care what your interests are or arent... your nobody from nowhere, always were always will be... and dont assume. looks bad for you.
So do yourself a favor.. stop refreshign your email every 5 seconds praying to find that email you believe will fill the empty void in your life and go enjoy the sun or something
I am reading the mmorpg forums. This one and others. I do return to my posts, respond, and then leave them behind the next day. I don't think I have insulted you, but obviously you took it as such. I am talking about a game, you are the one making it personal. Personal, real-life commitments mean little to me when it comes to gaming. Real life comes first, no excuses.
So, personally, you said you have a beta invite. My guess is you might have better things to do then "refreshing every 5 seconds" to do something more productive like let's say, playing Darkfall?
You havent insulted me... your incapable of it... trust me
and im at work?? I cant play beta... or ANYTHIGN when im at work can I? Please try and keep up
If you are at work, why not try working? Maybe then you won't need to put in the overtime. By the way, in your previous post, you did not say you were at work, so why not try to keep up with yourself. The difference between you an I, is when I am at work, I work. When I insult someone, I don't DB around it in replies, and when I say I don't give a damn about your personal life. I mean it.
So go back to work.
In other words, talk about the game, for once.
Nor did I say I wasnt at work.. your assumptions again have you looking silly.
I dont need to work OT.. I do because I like to make double time... I am working, I can easily type and work at the same time... I am sorry if you cannot multi-task.
Now if your done making a fool of yourself yes lets return to the topic... thx!!
Time to make up your mind. Read back, I am a fool for not assuming you were not at work (?), which I rightfully assumed since you were posting on forums and not working. Well, pretty soon you will be unemployed. That is what happens to people who claim overtime and do nothing but surf the internet, which by the by, your boss can likely track.
Yes, back to the game...
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
says the person with the WOTLK avatar...unsurprising.
perhaps the devs just dont care about anything that "official" websites have to say, considering that the game has generated quite a few followers without any advertising?
and please, give me a legitimate reason as to why they would have this as vapourware. what would they get out of it? Nothing.
DARKFALL 09!
Apparently 08 didn't make it
Sorros of Forumfall.
This reminds me of Duke Nukem Forever. They released videos and other stuff but it still isn't out yet. I remember it having an official release date on EBGames years ago but they eventually took it down.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
says the person with the WOTLK avatar...unsurprising.
perhaps the devs just dont care about anything that "official" websites have to say, considering that the game has generated quite a few followers without any advertising?
and please, give me a legitimate reason as to why they would have this as vapourware. what would they get out of it? Nothing.
I will say however, that anyone with any business sense would be spreading the word about their product in various forums. Be it a game article in a magazine, a spot on G4, etc. It doesnt make any sense to me that they could find plenty of venues that wouldnt cost them much time or money, however they dont utilize them. I dont get it.
we have been left in the dark now we hope there will be light but for sure we dont wanna see somehting like dark and light
____________________
It`s alright
AC2,AO,D&L,Lotro,VsoH,SWG,Uo,HGL,Drunners,CoH,GW,Potbs,PWI
Eq2,Dofus,WoW,WWIIO,Ryzom,Planetside,EvE,TR,DDO,RFonline,FOM,VC,..etc blabla
also hobbies....staring at loadingbars
Ok, first of i'm not a fan of Darkfall, and I wouldn't play it either as is not my style. I am waiting for Aion, btw
(you can check my posts)
Second , while people still wondering why there has not been any leaks into the CB so that we can see some screenshots or a video from the game, there is an answer .. or atleast a speculation answer.
Ok so let's say 50 players are currently in the CB right? Think about, if one of them try to break the NDA by trying his luck to post some screens or a video from the game, the Dev's will know FOR sure which one made the screens/video. How?Simple, because they will first see the screenshot , second they will know the exact location in game where they were made, and third they will just look in the logs to see which players has been in the exactly spot and when. It's simple since there are only 50 players who currently play in beta , and let's say only 20-30 at a time online so they will just know for sure, who`s the player who break the NDA.
So at a very early stage, it's very simple for the dev's to caught the ones who will break the NDA. There however may be alot more options to caught a player, but this is what i was thinking at this point.
Again, this is just me. I am not defending Darkfall, however this is just my point of view not only for DF, but with all other games.
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
There's only one beta tester, Tasos' Mom. It's even easier than you suggested, Tasos will just say Mom! why did you break the NDA? I told you I'm developing a really important game, and you can't break the NDA! Gosh!
There's only one beta tester, Tasos' Mom. It's even easier than you suggested, Tasos will just say Mom! why did you break the NDA? I told you I'm developing a really important game, and you can't break the NDA! Gosh!
This is what we in the business call "Napoleownd".
says the person with the WOTLK avatar...unsurprising.
perhaps the devs just dont care about anything that "official" websites have to say, considering that the game has generated quite a few followers without any advertising?
and please, give me a legitimate reason as to why they would have this as vapourware. what would they get out of it? Nothing.
A website is not advertisining, so says the df fanboi.
The reason df is gonna suck is the community of "hardcore" gamers that are gonna drive every casual gamer out of the game. No your not better then the casuals, remember all gamers are created equal. I can't stand gamers who call themselves the following, hardcore, elitest (leet), or any other slang that means their the best. DFcommunity will be full of them. Also how is beta going fans?
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
says the person with the WOTLK avatar...unsurprising.
perhaps the devs just dont care about anything that "official" websites have to say, considering that the game has generated quite a few followers without any advertising?
and please, give me a legitimate reason as to why they would have this as vapourware. what would they get out of it? Nothing.
A website is not advertisining, so says the df fanboi.
The reason df is gonna suck is the community of "hardcore" gamers that are gonna drive every casual gamer out of the game. No your not better then the casuals, remember all gamers are created equal. I can't stand gamers who call themselves the following, hardcore, elitest (leet), or any other slang that means their the best. DFcommunity will be full of them. Also how is beta going fans?
Your just mad cause your not Leet like me. Your so NOT leet!
says the person with the WOTLK avatar...unsurprising.
perhaps the devs just dont care about anything that "official" websites have to say, considering that the game has generated quite a few followers without any advertising?
and please, give me a legitimate reason as to why they would have this as vapourware. what would they get out of it? Nothing.
A website is not advertisining, so says the df fanboi.
The reason df is gonna suck is the community of "hardcore" gamers that are gonna drive every casual gamer out of the game. No your not better then the casuals, remember all gamers are created equal. I can't stand gamers who call themselves the following, hardcore, elitest (leet), or any other slang that means their the best. DFcommunity will be full of them. Also how is beta going fans?
Your just mad cause your not Leet like me. Your so NOT leet!
This is why its hilarious that they think the mmorpg.com community sucks when in fact they are the worst part.
O_o o_O
According to the reviews from the beta testers...apparently very well and the game seems well polished and a lot of fun, and pretty much exactly how the devs described it as.
Not even sure why i bothered giving you the truth...I know its not what you were looking for. But hey lets see what the response is.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos