Okay this post is in regards to fantasy skills, so please ignore eves space ships since thats not really applicable to my arguement.
1. The illusion of freedom.
I want to use magic and guns and swords weeeeeeeeeeeeeee. A good skill based game will include caps to the total amount of skills you can have at once.
But what is this freedom you achieve? What uniqueness are you getting? You still fall into the same catagories
Healer
Melee dps
Range dps
Debuff/buffing.
There is nothing else.
Healer+melee, classes have that.
Melee+range, classes have that
Buff+range, classes have that
The freedom you achieve is in fact you get to choose a flavor of what style. But the problem with this
FREEDOM COMES WITH A PRICE.
While you can vary your % and change the color of your attacks, you still fit into the archetypes, the price that comes is that each specific thing you can become... has had it's flavor stripped out.
Name me one game that ever had any form of combination of powers that had nearly as much flavor, uniqueness, and style as a wow class. You can't. And that's the price you pay. Oblivion UO etc etc, all carry this same flaw.
This causes the following question to develop.
A. Do you want freedom to combine pools but each pool be more generic? And you end up in archetypes anyway.
B. Do you want pools that come in sets but each pool is more flavorful and interesting?
2. Progression, classes aren't tied to it, and skills aren't immune
There is a illusion that classes come with a grind and a seperation in playerbase. This is not true. guild wars is a prime example, it's class based but you don't have a grind. Then theres ryzom which is skill based and has a grind.
You could choose a class and start at level 1, and there is only that one level.
You could choose skills to train and have to grind for 500 hours to reach the top.
A. Levels and why they are useful. More and more rpgs have realized that people like to play together with their friends, and have started to include ways to mentor lower levels either by them going up or you going down in level.
B. Skill based, there is a power that comes with higher skill levels, it's up to the individual game to decide how much. But a new player still is going to be a new player, with a equal "player skill" on entry. And as i said before skill based and class based can have the same grind and power balance. But just like class based you could mentor up and down theoretically to gain a false strength of higher/lower skill level.
C. Content, how do you make content for people to experience with no progression from said content. If it was easy to skill up and you could fight anything at any level, what is the purpose of skilling up? The answer would be PvP. But what exactly is the PvP system? Is it going to be GvG real world? RvR real world? Is there even going to be PvP? Is it going to be a pure pvp game? Theres a assumption that the only thing people want to do is PvP, and that should be the only important thing in a mmorpg.
Most people who argue for skill based also do not want a system of gear tiers. So what importance would PvE have? Why do PvE players have to suffer for PvPrs(the whiniest bunch out there)? To get crafting mats? What if they didn't want to craft or had a decent set already. why would they go PvE? They wouldn't. But then the arguement of "this is a good time to go pvp then! Again not everyone wants to PvP, it's why there are a ton of populated wow PvE servers, and even on PvP servers theres a LOT of PvE(for PvE gear!)
Levels allow people to play through content with a purpose. The quests can offer items, exp, and fun. And allow you to be doing something besides grinding up skills. This is a big + for the average mmorpg player. Dungeons can be included for certain level ranges, and skill rangers. Look at WoW, as you level instances become more difficult and require more teamwork and structure. It eases people into the game, and into the natural harder raiding end game.
Skills can do the same thing but at the end of the day look at WoW, if you remove levels, it actually has a skill based system under it, leveling weapon skills, and in the beginning magic skills leveled like this as well, it's why when you do SFK you get the -100 skill for spells, because it was originally like that. And it's generally HATED by the playerbase, they HATE grinding the skills, it's NOT fun. If that was the entire way to progress in the game, nobody would play wow.
So while you end up making a bunch of content worthless by the time you hit 70, you also did alot of the content between 1-70. Whereas in a system where it's all just... normal content, you'd still have to spend the time doing all the content, and you probably wouldn't want to repeat the content either. So after 200 hours of playing you still negated the same amount of content.
Gamers these days are NOT interested in grinding mobs for skill or exp anymore. They are NOT interested in games where the entire game is one long chat room, with some stupid guild conflicts over silly reasonings or stupid officers.
Skill system hasn't been added since it's simply not needed, and it restricts developer freedom, they have to balance every sit around any possible combination. If 2h swords was overpowered with healing, healing and 2h would get nerfed which would(does, and did) hurt both 2h and healing in other combinations just to make this one combo more balanced.
250k people play EVE, 11 million play WoW. The people have choosen which system they like most.
World of Warcraft is based on the Warcraft IP which is a huge license. A lot of us were playing the RTS way before the MMO. So naturally when the MMO came out a lot of us were interested in playing it
Developers license huge IPs for a reason. Its nice to have a big fanbase ahead of time
250k people play EVE, 11 million play WoW. The people have choosen which system they like most.
World of Warcraft is based on the Warcraft IP which is a huge license. A lot of us were playing the RTS way before the MMO. So naturally when the MMO came out a lot of us were interested in playing it
Developers license huge IPs for a reason. Its nice to have a big fanbase ahead of time
star wars was a big IP, lotr is a big IP, Matrix was a big IP.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
250k people play EVE, 11 million play WoW. The people have choosen which system they like most.
World of Warcraft is based on the Warcraft IP which is a huge license. A lot of us were playing the RTS way before the MMO. So naturally when the MMO came out a lot of us were interested in playing it
Developers license huge IPs for a reason. Its nice to have a big fanbase ahead of time
It has nothing to do with IP, it has to do with accessability. Level systems are simpler, plain and... simple. WoW is incredibly easy to get into, and takes little thought to play and progress. Kill stuff or do quests until the level on your head increases, place talent point wherever you want. Very little thinking involved. This makes WoW incredibly accessable to the casual market, and with other things, makes it as popular as it is.
Skill systems require more thinking. In SWG you had to try and lay out your skill points, figure out what boxes you wanted, where the moves you wanted were, what combination would give you the best stats in a particular field, and then you had to grind out the skills and try out the build. In Eve, you must map which skills you want first, what you actually want to be doing, and then let time train you. This requires a lot of "downtime" in the casuals eye's. Thinking, planning, and overall freedom isn't wanted by little Timmy and grandma Lucy. They just want to get in the game, kill stuff, and be rewarded. The lowest common denominator wins in the eyes of the investors.
Level systems have an inherent flaw though. It seperates the playerbase, wastes content, and is too restricting. Players that aren't the same level (or close to it) cannot play together. So if you don't join at launch, you will automatically be behind the curve. This means that if you have friends that play, your goal is to power level through the low levels so that you can reach max level and play with your friends. This brings me to my next point in that developers waste a TON of time making zones, areas, and content that will be power leveled through once and never played again. A skill based system can have all of it's zones useful to all players, but level systems can't.
Imagine if a developer could use the time spent on early level content on endgame content? Or actually in this case, it would just be "Game content" since everythign is accessable to everyone.
But to tell you the truth, in the end I don't even think there is any argument of whether a skill based or class/level based system is better, it's pretty obvious. Skill systems are superior without a doubt. The real problem is that it isn't casual friendly, and investors don't want to take risks.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
star wars was a big IP, lotr is a big IP, Matrix was a big IP.
Why weren't they in wows spot?
I think there's a little bit of a difference. Warcraft is a big gaming IP, while the others are simply IP's of films. Bioware's upcoming mmorpg will be a well-recognized gaming and film IP so that would be expected to be quite big. (Likely nowhere nr as big as WoW though as it's more aimed at an audience and I don't think it will have sales right across the globe- ie. Asia and some other places that WoW has been v. successful in)
star wars was a big IP, lotr is a big IP, Matrix was a big IP.
Why weren't they in wows spot?
I think there's a little bit of a difference. Warcraft is a big gaming IP, while the others are simply IP's of films. Bioware's upcoming mmorpg will be a well-recognized gaming and film IP so that would be expected to be quite big. (Likely nowhere nr as big as WoW though as it's more aimed at an audience and I don't think it will have sales right across the globe- ie. Asia and some other places that WoW has been v. successful in)
Theres been a bunch of SW games. Theres been a bunch of lotr games.
And let me tell you this, there are way more fans for star wars then there was for warcraft before wow was released, there wasn't even a comparison where you could argue the fanbase.
your excuse doesn't fly.
The truth is, it wasn't the IP, it wasn't blizzard. That would have been enough to sell perhaps a decent amount comparable to others.
It was the fact that the game was and is fun, and one of the best on the markets. Just because people consider themselves GANGSTA HARDCORE PIMPS! and need some HARDCORE SHIZIT. Doesn't change that. It's accessability, it's fun, everything about the game itself regardless of IP bought the fans.
250k people play EVE, 11 million play WoW. The people have choosen which system they like most.
World of Warcraft is based on the Warcraft IP which is a huge license. A lot of us were playing the RTS way before the MMO. So naturally when the MMO came out a lot of us were interested in playing it Developers license huge IPs for a reason. Its nice to have a big fanbase ahead of time
It has nothing to do with IP, it has to do with accessability. Level systems are simpler, plain and... simple. WoW is incredibly easy to get into, and takes little thought to play and progress. Kill stuff or do quests until the level on your head increases, place talent point wherever you want. Very little thinking involved. This makes WoW incredibly accessable to the casual market, and with other things, makes it as popular as it is. I'm a hardcore gamer, and let me tell you something, you are not a better gamer then me, nor are you better then casual gamers. You and your ilk have a percieved notion of superiority and frankly it's sickening.
Skill systems require more thinking. In SWG you had to try and lay out your skill points, figure out what boxes you wanted, where the moves you wanted were, what combination would give you the best stats in a particular field, and then you had to grind out the skills and try out the build.
This is entirely possible in a class based and level based system, the fact that you even say "grind" ruins your arguement because it's the same word used to condemn level and class games.
In Eve, you must map which skills you want first, what you actually want to be doing, and then let time train you. This requires a lot of "downtime" in the casuals eye's. Thinking, planning, and overall freedom isn't wanted by little Timmy and grandma Lucy. They just want to get in the game, kill stuff, and be rewarded. The lowest common denominator wins in the eyes of the investors. I'm a hardcore gamer, and i'll tell you something. It is downtime. When i play games, i play them to play them. I don't know anyone besides your ilk who have developed some weird self punishing viewpoint of having restrictive and needlessly complicated gameplay and systems, just for the sake of having them. At the end of the day, all of this stuff is simply that. Extra systems added on just to complicate things. It's not even about depth. You can have great depth without making things needlessly frustrating.
Level systems have an inherent flaw though. It seperates the playerbase, wastes content, and is too restricting. Players that aren't the same level (or close to it) cannot play together. So if you don't join at launch, you will automatically be behind the curve. This means that if you have friends that play, your goal is to power level through the low levels so that you can reach max level and play with your friends.
Here's the thing, it does seperate the playerbase, but it also sections off the playerbase into people with similar goals. So while you may see it as 1000 people spread into tiers of content. The people in each tier generally are around people who want to kill XX, want to go dungeon XX, want to do XX quest, and need XX gear. So it becomes much easier to actually play together.
When you unleash players into a world where they can go anywhere and do anything without any limitations, you also are not giving people common goals besides grinding XX skill, or grinding XX crafting materials. It changes to be something similar to FFXI, meeting in XX town, and being LFG grinding at XX grinding spot(the best one available).
Content changes from stuff being doing, to stuff being grinded. People don't just wander aroudn the world randomly slaying stuff. Rather they go to heavy populated areas, form groups to go the best camps, and then grind. It's exactly what EQ was, for this same reason.
Also mmorpgs are toying around with mentoring systems. Which helps friends play together. Also caravans where you share exp with your friends
This brings me to my next point in that developers waste a TON of time making zones, areas, and content that will be power leveled through once and never played again. A skill based system can have all of it's zones useful to all players, but level systems can't. How naive. Let me ask you this.
How do players level without actually doing the content?
How many times do you see the same content being done over and over and over in skill based games. Are you going to say that if everyone was just max level in wow, and all content for that level. That people would quest in any of the zones more than once? Would they do westfall, over and over and over? Just because it was skill approriate.
Honestly, where is this magical content that doesn't get used you seem to think exists. If you are refering to player made PvP conflicts over resource nodes and areas, then that's not game designed content, and is not something that ties into leveling or skills.
You have to do the content to level, you may miss things here and there. but again, name me a skill based mmo out there, that everyone did every single piece of content ever made on every single one of their characters? I can't even come close to say anyone who did this. Heck even the most hardcore fans of the single player oblivion would be hard pressed to say they have done every single dungeon done every single home building, learned every skill, did everything. Most players who play the game... do content and then move on.
I can bet you that if it was just a flat level skill based game, there would be plenty of content that didn't get done.
Imagine if a developer could use the time spent on early level content on endgame content? Or actually in this case, it would just be "Game content" since everythign is accessable to everyone. Again, if I'm leveling, killing bosses, finding missing items, rescueing people, getting materials, crafting, leveling, that itself is content. You can do everything in the game. You can argue "BUTZ YOU CANTZ DO IT RIGHT AWAY!" Guess what. You still can do it eventually, and you still have content to do in the meanwhile.
Doing content while leveling has the same value as End game content. Look at WoW there are TONS of quests for 70s to do. And people do them. But would the game be fun if all the quests were just for level 70s? How many zones could you go through before you got bored and stopped? I bet far less then now. You can argue that theres too many quests and they are too grindy. But at the same time people like you propose a system with no actual game content, but rather grind, and fake content by players.
If i play a mmorpg for 300 hours while leveling, isn't that 300 hours of content, how is that any worse then 300 hours of content just at max level?
Again why would you repeat content/dungeons/etc in a skill based game. you really hold this false belief that everything has infinite replayability just because its max level content.
But to tell you the truth, in the end I don't even think there is any argument of whether a skill based or class/level based system is better, it's pretty obvious. Skill systems are superior without a doubt. The real problem is that it isn't casual friendly, and investors don't want to take risks.
I'm sorry, but just because you and your kind have secluded yourselves into small little boxes and preconcieved notions of how "real mmorpgs" should be. and how "you are real gamers for liking what you like". doesn't mean your right.
Take risks? I could develop a game right now, that just instant slayed people, while they fought the interface and control schemes trying to actually play the game with the lack of real content, instead just randomly modeled objects at random points in the world. And that would be eaten up by your kind. Simply because it's so hardcore and leetz.
Developers want to make GOOD GAMES, not to fulfill a self punishing ideal behind the types of games you want.
Hey Bladin, here's a clue: Stop trying to sound like some comic book super villain. You are not Sephiroth or Lex Luthor and you aren't impressing anyone with your bright red text either. Your ilk...lol
I personally liked the combination level/skill system that was used in Asheron's Call, but I can see the downside of it. You basically had to have a certain 'build' in order to compete in PvP on an even level. Sure there were a few modifications to the build that were optional depending on what you wanted to do on the side, but most of the skills were pretty much either useful or wasteful. This lead to people realizing that after playing their character for months they were 'gimped' because they picked the skills that they thought would be fun, rather than following a template.
It's hard to keep that from happening, because it is hard to balance all of the possible skill combinations in order to make every skill as viable as another.
It was nice to have skill points that you could use at any time, but it took away that feeling of accomplishment from gaining a level.
That's why casual players like the class based system, because no matter what choices they make in their skill trees at least they know they aren't going to be completely useless.
I like skill based games because I like sitting down and figuring out what skills will work well together and when I should get them. It makes me feel like my character is truely unique. But most of today's MMOers aren't old school pen and paper RPGers, they are videogamers. They just want to play and have fun.
It's not my style of gaming, but my style of gaming is history.
So really, I agree with you. But you don't have to be so damn condescending about it.
250k people play EVE, 11 million play WoW. The people have choosen which system they like most.
World of Warcraft is based on the Warcraft IP which is a huge license. A lot of us were playing the RTS way before the MMO. So naturally when the MMO came out a lot of us were interested in playing it
Developers license huge IPs for a reason. Its nice to have a big fanbase ahead of time
It has nothing to do with IP, it has to do with accessability. Level systems are simpler, plain and... simple. WoW is incredibly easy to get into, and takes little thought to play and progress. Kill stuff or do quests until the level on your head increases, place talent point wherever you want. Very little thinking involved. This makes WoW incredibly accessable to the casual market, and with other things, makes it as popular as it is.
Skill systems require more thinking. In SWG you had to try and lay out your skill points, figure out what boxes you wanted, where the moves you wanted were, what combination would give you the best stats in a particular field, and then you had to grind out the skills and try out the build. In Eve, you must map which skills you want first, what you actually want to be doing, and then let time train you. This requires a lot of "downtime" in the casuals eye's. Thinking, planning, and overall freedom isn't wanted by little Timmy and grandma Lucy. They just want to get in the game, kill stuff, and be rewarded. The lowest common denominator wins in the eyes of the investors.
Level systems have an inherent flaw though. It seperates the playerbase, wastes content, and is too restricting. Players that aren't the same level (or close to it) cannot play together. So if you don't join at launch, you will automatically be behind the curve. This means that if you have friends that play, your goal is to power level through the low levels so that you can reach max level and play with your friends. This brings me to my next point in that developers waste a TON of time making zones, areas, and content that will be power leveled through once and never played again. A skill based system can have all of it's zones useful to all players, but level systems can't.
Imagine if a developer could use the time spent on early level content on endgame content? Or actually in this case, it would just be "Game content" since everythign is accessable to everyone.
But to tell you the truth, in the end I don't even think there is any argument of whether a skill based or class/level based system is better, it's pretty obvious. Skill systems are superior without a doubt. The real problem is that it isn't casual friendly, and investors don't want to take risks.
According to records WoW was #1 MMO *overnight*. The day it launched everyone I knew was in lines to get it. The stores couldnt get enough copies. I remember I had to search all over town
It had a LOT to do with IP. Blizzard is a huge brand recognition alone. I've been with them since Blackthrone
There is no way WoW would be as popular as it is without that IP. There is just no way. I contend if WoW were made by another studio it would not have done as well as it has
And skill-based systems do not have to take more thinking. Checkout Crackdown on xbox 360. That's how simple skill-based can be. You play the game and the game figures out what activities you like and strengtens your character for you. You dont need a spreadsheet or advanced apps to make a character
EVE is just a pain in the ass to make a new character. I'd say even Elder Scrolls and Fable1&2 made much easier to use skill-based systems.
There should be only 1 mmorpg and it should be world of warcraft... its so perfect , 10 million morons can't be wrong. Any suggestion that deviates from the all superior level warcraft system is ulimately wrong and I will NEVER listen to anyone's point, they're just dumb. come on people ... 10 million people play WoW. Level grinding is the only way a game system should be.
It has nothing to do with IP, it has to do with accessability. Level systems are simpler, plain and... simple. WoW is incredibly easy to get into, and takes little thought to play and progress. Kill stuff or do quests until the level on your head increases, place talent point wherever you want. Very little thinking involved. This makes WoW incredibly accessable to the casual market, and with other things, makes it as popular as it is. Skill systems require more thinking. In SWG you had to try and lay out your skill points, figure out what boxes you wanted, where the moves you wanted were, what combination would give you the best stats in a particular field, and then you had to grind out the skills and try out the build. In Eve, you must map which skills you want first, what you actually want to be doing, and then let time train you. This requires a lot of "downtime" in the casuals eye's. Thinking, planning, and overall freedom isn't wanted by little Timmy and grandma Lucy. They just want to get in the game, kill stuff, and be rewarded. The lowest common denominator wins in the eyes of the investors.
Level systems have an inherent flaw though. It seperates the playerbase, wastes content, and is too restricting. Actually Level based systems get a lot of reuse if they get players to reroll. City of Heroes at least back in my day, saw plenty of content reuse. The average player had about 3-4 different Classes. This is really the secret of a well designed Level based game. You want all levels to see activity. So- you make it so people can gain new abilities and levels fast early on. At some point, players might get the itch to try a new Class
This is one benefit of the Level cap. Once players hit the end, players start over with a new Class. This is healthy for those games. So then the only content they are losing is the raid/dungeon content. That's a shame. A Skill-based game would reuse the content much better but then again- it depends on the setup. I know in EVE I'd never ever go back and do a Level 1 Mission. The pay is not as good as L3 or L4 Players that aren't the same level (or close to it) cannot play together. So if you don't join at launch, you will automatically be behind the curve. EVE Online, since there is no skillcap. New players that join will always be behind the curve. This means that if you have friends that play, your goal is to power level through the low levels so that you can reach max level and play with your friends. City of Heroes has a sidekick feature to get around that allowing high levels and newbies to play together. This brings me to my next point in that developers waste a TON of time making zones, areas, and content that will be power leveled through once and never played again. A skill based system can have all of it's zones useful to all players, but level systems can't. They both can optimally get reuse. It depends on the design. As I pointed out, in EVE, veterans have no reason to do Level 1 missions. I know I made a fleet of alts in City of Heroes and enjoyed repeating the content actually. That's the goal of Class based games. The real flaw with Level based systems they highly rely on steady influx of newbies to get the game fresh. This is why less popular MMORPGs suffer so badly. Imagine if a developer could use the time spent on early level content on endgame content? Or actually in this case, it would just be "Game content" since everythign is accessable to everyone. But to tell you the truth, in the end I don't even think there is any argument of whether a skill based or class/level based system is better, it's pretty obvious. Skill systems are superior without a doubt. The real problem is that it isn't casual friendly, and investors don't want to take risks. I agree. I wouldnt mind Level/Class based games existing right but when every MMO is the same that just sickening. I'd love to see more skill-based games come out. Or new twists on Class based paradigms being tried out
Added some more responses here. Perhaps EVE is a different animal altogether because the spaceships we pilot sort of "Level Up" in a way. So EVE might sharply contrast with SWG pre-CU
LOL Hey Bladin, here's a clue: Stop trying to sound like some comic book super villain. You are not Sephiroth or Lex Luthor and you aren't impressing anyone with your bright red text either. Your ilk...lol So really, I agree with you. But you don't have to be so damn condescending about it.
lol... I know right, i felt bad about actually posting so offensively. But it's just... I've grown sick to !@%^!@^!@ death, of these people waving their epeens around about being hardcore and real gamers.
That they KNOW the true way games should be made/played. They KNOW that people who don't agree, or don't like their ideas, aren't real mmorpg players.
It has nothing to do with IP, it has to do with accessability. Level systems are simpler, plain and... simple. WoW is incredibly easy to get into, and takes little thought to play and progress. Kill stuff or do quests until the level on your head increases, place talent point wherever you want. Very little thinking involved. This makes WoW incredibly accessable to the casual market, and with other things, makes it as popular as it is. I'm a hardcore gamer Dude you are such a bad ass and let me tell you something, you are not a better gamer then me, nor are you better then casual gamers. You and your ilk have a percieved notion of superiority and frankly it's sickening.
Odd, I don't remember ever saying I was better than anyone. Let me read what I said again... Nope, I just pointed out obvious features of WoW and why it was popular, never mentioned myself once. Wipe the tears from your face, you didn't comprehend what I wrote properly. Skill systems require more thinking. In SWG you had to try and lay out your skill points, figure out what boxes you wanted, where the moves you wanted were, what combination would give you the best stats in a particular field, and then you had to grind out the skills and try out the build.
This is entirely possible in a class based and level based system Really? How is this possible at all in a class based system? How do you map out what skills and abilities you want whne that has already been determined by the developer? the fact that you even say "grind" ruins your arguement because it's the same word used to condemn level and class games.
Really? So because someone else(in example, not me) uses grind as a negative aspect of level based games, I'm not allowed to use the word or my argument is invalid? What should I say then? I've never used the word "grind" to give a flaw to level based games as MMOs are one type of grind or another no matter what their core mechanics are. SWG was a grindfest as it was. The difference in the two is that level based games are usually solo quest grinds, and SWG was a group grind. I found social interaction in an MMO most appealing. But since this was your rebuttle, it appears you really didn't have anything valid to say. In Eve, you must map which skills you want first, what you actually want to be doing, and then let time train you. This requires a lot of "downtime" in the casuals eye's. Thinking, planning, and overall freedom isn't wanted by little Timmy and grandma Lucy. They just want to get in the game, kill stuff, and be rewarded. The lowest common denominator wins in the eyes of the investors. I'm a hardcore gamer Dude I already know how bad ass you are, you don't have to keep reminding me. and i'll tell you something. It is downtime. God forbid your brain needs to be active to play a game. I mean who wants to think these days anyway? When i play games, i play them to play them. I don't know anyone besides your ilk who have developed some weird self punishing viewpoint of having restrictive and needlessly complicated gameplay and systems, just for the sake of having them. Who said anything about needlessly complicated? I don't want needlessly complicated, I want challengingly complicated. Where is this self punishing? Is thinking really that painful for you? At the end of the day, all of this stuff is simply that. Extra systems added on just to complicate things. It's not even about depth. You can have great depth without making things needlessly frustrating.
You are right, so I don't know why you keep implying I want things needlessly frustrated. Level systems have an inherent flaw though. It seperates the playerbase, wastes content, and is too restricting. Players that aren't the same level (or close to it) cannot play together. So if you don't join at launch, you will automatically be behind the curve. This means that if you have friends that play, your goal is to power level through the low levels so that you can reach max level and play with your friends.
Here's the thing, it does seperate the playerbase, but it also sections off the playerbase into people with similar goals. So while you may see it as 1000 people spread into tiers of content. The people in each tier generally are around people who want to kill XX, want to go dungeon XX, want to do XX quest, and need XX gear. So it becomes much easier to actually play together.
Except after a couple weeks - months most everyone is at max level, and the spread of people at the lower levels is slim. Then, within the small group of low levels you need to find people that are on the same quests, dungeon, or same part of the quest chain as you. And you can't play with your high level or lower level friends. So it becomes much more difficult to actually play together. When you unleash players into a world where they can go anywhere and do anything without any limitations, you also are not giving people common goals besides grinding XX skill, or grinding XX crafting materials. It changes to be something similar to FFXI, meeting in XX town, and being LFG grinding at XX grinding spot(the best one available).
Why does giving people freedom automatically mean they can't have common goals? They aren't mutually exclusive. Content changes from stuff being doing, to stuff being grinded. People don't just wander aroudn the world randomly slaying stuff. Rather they go to heavy populated areas, form groups to go the best camps, and then grind. It's exactly what EQ was, for this same reason.
Also mmorpgs are toying around with mentoring systems. Which helps friends play together. Also caravans where you share exp with your friends
SWG had a system back during the CU, where if a low level joined a group with other people, everyone in the group would be considered the level of the highest player in the group. I'm glad other games are finally catching up to yet another feature SWG had long ago. This brings me to my next point in that developers waste a TON of time making zones, areas, and content that will be power leveled through once and never played again. A skill based system can have all of it's zones useful to all players, but level systems can't. How naive. Let me ask you this.
How do players level without actually doing the content?
The don't? Or they Grind? What's your point? How many times do you see the same content being done over and over and over in skill based games. Are you going to say that if everyone was just max level in wow, and all content for that level. That people would quest in any of the zones more than once? Would they do westfall, over and over and over? Just because it was skill approriate.
There aren't that many missions in Eve, yet they get done over and over again. If you give a reasonable reward, the players will play. Honestly, where is this magical content that doesn't get used you seem to think exists. If you are refering to player made PvP conflicts over resource nodes and areas, then that's not game designed content, and is not something that ties into leveling or skills.
Apparently you can't understand my point. Look at WoW. End game dungeons are run over and over again. Uldaman is run once maybe, and then never looked at again. Wasted development time. You have to do the content to level, you may miss things here and there. but again, name me a skill based mmo out there, that everyone did every single piece of content ever made on every single one of their characters? The point isn't whether they have done the content, but whether there is still a point in doing the content. How dense are you? I can't even come close to say anyone who did this. Heck even the most hardcore fans of the single player oblivion would be hard pressed to say they have done every single dungeon done every single home building, learned every skill, did everything. Most players who play the game... do content and then move on.
I can bet you that if it was just a flat level skill based game, there would be plenty of content that didn't get done.
I honestly can't even follow where your mislead and baseless argument is going anymore. Imagine if a developer could use the time spent on early level content on endgame content? Or actually in this case, it would just be "Game content" since everythign is accessable to everyone. Again, if I'm leveling, killing bosses, finding missing items, rescueing people, getting materials, crafting, leveling, that itself is content. You can do everything in the game. You can argue "BUTZ YOU CANTZ DO IT RIGHT AWAY!" Guess what. You still can do it eventually, and you still have content to do in the meanwhile.
Again, if your leveling, everything you do is pointless. Why should you have to waste a ton of time running the same boring quests over and over so that you can one day reach a level where you can do stuff that has a point? Who cares if you kill that boss? His items will be worthless in a couple levels. Who cares if your crafting? Your items have crappy stats because they are for low levels. You can argue "ALLCAPZ MIZSPELED 2 M4KE A POINT" but your argument is still empty. Doing content while leveling has the same value as End game content. Look at WoW there are TONS of quests for 70s to do. And people do them. But would the game be fun if all the quests were just for level 70s? How many zones could you go through before you got bored and stopped? I bet far less then now. I probably wouldn't get through very many zones at all. This would be because I find questing incredibly dull, boring, anti-social, boring, dull, and pointless. If all quests were for 70's, I wouldn't have to do any quests if I didn't want to, I could just do what I wanted to do. Why do I have to be forced to do a bunch of stupid quests just so I can start having fun doing what I want to do when I reach max level? I can't figure out why you are so against freedom and choices. You can argue that theres too many quests and they are too grindy. But at the same time people like you propose a system with no actual game content, but rather grind, and fake content by players.
Oh no, social interaction in an MMO, AHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhh.... If i play a mmorpg for 300 hours while leveling, isn't that 300 hours of content, how is that any worse then 300 hours of content just at max level?
Because it's 300 wasted hours you spent alone doing pointless quests and content that gave you rewards that have no value after a couple more levels, and you will never touch again just so you could level up to play with your friends. Again why would you repeat content/dungeons/etc in a skill based game. you really hold this false belief that everything has infinite replayability just because its max level content.
But to tell you the truth, in the end I don't even think there is any argument of whether a skill based or class/level based system is better, it's pretty obvious. Skill systems are superior without a doubt. The real problem is that it isn't casual friendly, and investors don't want to take risks.
I'm sorry, but just because you and your kind have secluded yourselves into small little boxes and preconcieved notions of how "real mmorpgs" should be. and how "you are real gamers for liking what you like". doesn't mean your right.
I'm sorry that you believe every single game in the universe should be exactly like WoW. I'm sorry you hate thinking, freedom, and choices in your games.
Take risks? I could develop a game right now
No you couldn't.
Developers want to make MONEY, not games that require thought or provide a challenge.
Fixed.
So hostile. I can't figure out why you dislike choices, freedom, and depth in your games. Why must you defend linear games so much? You have a plethora of your ideal simplistic games out for your choosing, yet you attack anyone that wants a game that requires even the slightest bit of intellect. I'm sorry you hate thinking so much, but perhaps you should stick to playing single player Xbox games from now on.
btw, thank you for pasting a "holier than thou" on me and claiming I put it on myself. The only self righteous one here is you.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
LOL Hey Bladin, here's a clue: Stop trying to sound like some comic book super villain. You are not Sephiroth or Lex Luthor and you aren't impressing anyone with your bright red text either. Your ilk...lol So really, I agree with you. But you don't have to be so damn condescending about it.
lol... I know right, i felt bad about actually posting so offensively. But it's just... I've grown sick to !@%^!@^!@ death, of these people waving their epeens around about being hardcore and real gamers.
That they KNOW the true way games should be made/played. They KNOW that people who don't agree, or don't like their ideas, aren't real mmorpg players.
Go re-read my entire post again. NO WHERE did I do any of that. In fact, you are the one waving your epeen about how hardcore you are(you say it more than once) and how you KNOW how games should be made.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I'm a hardcore gamer Dude you are such a bad ass I never said it was a good thing, in the terms of real life, it's a bad thing. I don't take pride in it, but it's what I am. and let me tell you something, you are not a better gamer then me, nor are you better then casual gamers. You and your ilk have a percieved notion of superiority and frankly it's sickening.
Odd, I don't remember ever saying I was better than anyone. Let me read what I said again... Nope, I just pointed out obvious features of WoW and why it was popular, never mentioned myself once. Wipe the tears from your face, you didn't comprehend what I wrote properly. Except I know you. I know your post history, we have met before. Do you miss the subtleness you add to your posts?
This is entirely possible in a class based and level based system Really? How is this possible at all in a class based system? How do you map out what skills and abilities you want whne that has already been determined by the developer? Go play astonia. You can be a mage a warrior or a seyan(combination). Yet let me tell you this, you can be stronger and more effective then people way higher level then you for a reason. In fact i'd say you have to plan your build far more then you ever had to for UO, SWG or the like. You've never even heard of astonia you say? you can't stand the gameplay? well, thems the breaks, it's my favorite mmorpg, i haven't played it in years, but it still is, i've never had as much in any other mmo as i had in it. the fact that you even say "grind" ruins your arguement because it's the same word used to condemn level and class games.
Really? So because someone else(in example, not me) uses grind as a negative aspect of level based games, I'm not allowed to use the word or my argument is invalid? What should I say then? I've never used the word "grind" to give a flaw to level based games as MMOs are one type of grind or another no matter what their core mechanics are. SWG was a grindfest as it was. The difference in the two is that level based games are usually solo quest grinds, and SWG was a group grind. I found social interaction in an MMO most appealing. But since this was your rebuttle, it appears you really didn't have anything valid to say. It's being selective. Yes you can never use the word grind negatively, and then use it positively. It's being favorist. You obviously like skill based games, It's okay for you to favor them.
Everquest was mainly grouping, FFXI is all group grinding. ddo is all grouping. Wheres the exclusion here? It's somehow okay for SWG to have grinding because it's group grinding. But it's not okay for wow etc because you can solo? That's even being pickier.
I'm a hardcore gamer Dude I already know how bad ass you are, you don't have to keep reminding me. I'm saying this because you have a preconcieved notion that everyone who doesn't play your game isn't a hardcore gamer(which you yourself are) and i'll tell you something. It is downtime. God forbid your brain needs to be active to play a game. I mean who wants to think these days anyway? Having to sit down and effectively plan on when to put a point into X in which order is not required. It's not needed, and I'm saying this when astonia... needed it! And i loved that game! The game doesn't need to be needlessly complicated this way. Let alone the only way to create the best items was to spend massive amounts of money buying orbs which were randomly given from shrines on a I think 3 month(i don't remember) cooldown per character. Or welding stats from one item to another, which can only be done a few times per cahracter, and NEVER refreshes. When i play games, i play them to play them. I don't know anyone besides your ilk who have developed some weird self punishing viewpoint of having restrictive and needlessly complicated gameplay and systems, just for the sake of having them. Who said anything about needlessly complicated? I don't want needlessly complicated, I want challengingly complicated. Where is this self punishing? Is thinking really that painful for you? You want challengingly complicated in the wrong areas. You shouldn't be forced to sit down and plan out your stats to have a effective character, you should have to sit down and learn how to play your own character. I say self punishing because, beyond just needlessly complicated systems. Your type also wish for the whole hardcore system. Which i actually do too. I just don't like the way the group behaves, nor do i agree with how they want it in their games. At the end of the day, all of this stuff is simply that. Extra systems added on just to complicate things. It's not even about depth. You can have great depth without making things needlessly frustrating.
You are right, so I don't know why you keep implying I want things needlessly frustrated. Yes but address my earlier post in the thread. Argue against my comparison of skill vs class. It always gets skipped over because it hasn't been able to be argued against yet.
Here's the thing, it does seperate the playerbase, but it also sections off the playerbase into people with similar goals. So while you may see it as 1000 people spread into tiers of content. The people in each tier generally are around people who want to kill XX, want to go dungeon XX, want to do XX quest, and need XX gear. So it becomes much easier to actually play together.
Except after a couple weeks - months most everyone is at max level, and the spread of people at the lower levels is slim. Then, within the small group of low levels you need to find people that are on the same quests, dungeon, or same part of the quest chain as you. And you can't play with your high level or lower level friends. So it becomes much more difficult to actually play together. Yes and in 3 years of playing a flat level based game, everyone will be going to XX locations to farm, leaving the rest of the world desolate and veterans won't go with other people to explore the world. When you unleash players into a world where they can go anywhere and do anything without any limitations, you also are not giving people common goals besides grinding XX skill, or grinding XX crafting materials. It changes to be something similar to FFXI, meeting in XX town, and being LFG grinding at XX grinding spot(the best one available).
Why does giving people freedom automatically mean they can't have common goals? They aren't mutually exclusive. The problem with freedom is that it spreads people out, and encourages only the most time effective areas to farm and grind. In a game without a content progression chain, the game always ends up with the same formula and that is ignoring a lot of the world for just the best time to earning ratio. Content changes from stuff being doing, to stuff being grinded. People don't just wander aroudn the world randomly slaying stuff. Rather they go to heavy populated areas, form groups to go the best camps, and then grind. It's exactly what EQ was, for this same reason.
Also mmorpgs are toying around with mentoring systems. Which helps friends play together. Also caravans where you share exp with your friends
SWG had a system back during the CU, where if a low level joined a group with other people, everyone in the group would be considered the level of the highest player in the group. I'm glad other games are finally catching up to yet another feature SWG had long ago. I've always personally thought more games should do this, in wow terms though, areas such as "instances" or open world dungeons should have a minimum level requirement to sidekick people up to, like if it was level 50, a 40 could be sidekicked, or a 30 to a 40 etc. Whereas questing and the like didn't have level This brings me to my next point in that developers waste a TON of time making zones, areas, and content that will be power leveled through once and never played again. A skill based system can have all of it's zones useful to all players, but level systems can't. How naive. Let me ask you this.
How do players level without actually doing the content?
The don't? Or they Grind? What's your point? How many times do you see the same content being done over and over and over in skill based games. Are you going to say that if everyone was just max level in wow, and all content for that level. That people would quest in any of the zones more than once? Would they do westfall, over and over and over? Just because it was skill approriate.
There aren't that many missions in Eve, yet they get done over and over again. If you give a reasonable reward, the players will play. That's the issue, there aren't many missions in eve. If we are talking a fantasy game, people ARE NEVER going to go back to the grind/random exploration style, if there aren't quests or dungeons or the like to do, it will never be successful. It's also generally accepted the PvE in eve is pretty terrible. So I really don't feel eve is a great example Honestly, where is this magical content that doesn't get used you seem to think exists. If you are refering to player made PvP conflicts over resource nodes and areas, then that's not game designed content, and is not something that ties into leveling or skills.
Apparently you can't understand my point. Look at WoW. End game dungeons are run over and over again. Uldaman is run once maybe, and then never looked at again. Wasted development time. How many people have done uldaman though? I've done it at least 20 times. Even assuming only 50% of the current subscribers have ever done uldaman, that's still 5.5 million people. And if they only spent a half hour of time there, that's still 2.75 million hours of playtime. I'd hardly call that wasted development time.
And i'd say uldaman has been run a LOT more then that. Yes the en game dungeons get run over and over and over again. But that's only because there's a gear progression system, and they need the gear from them to advance to higher tiers. If there were more dungeons you'd need to basically have a flowing tier chart of instances. Each having a gear requirement to get into.(such as heroics are now) But then this is ignoring the fact that the skillers don't even want tiers of gear. They don't want anything they have to work for over time to better themselves or be required. You have to do the content to level, you may miss things here and there. but again, name me a skill based mmo out there, that everyone did every single piece of content ever made on every single one of their characters? The point isn't whether they have done the content, but whether there is still a point in doing the content. How dense are you? Who cares if there still is a point to doing it. How dense are YOU? The point is, the content gets done, and and people enjoy it. It's wasted development time because people do the content and then move on? I just beat lost odyssey for the 360, I'm probably never going to play it again. Is the entire game wasted development time? I mean i did the content, it's done, i got past the low level story, I can't go back. No. Why? Because i truely enjoyed the experience while it lasted. I can't even come close to say anyone who did this. Heck even the most hardcore fans of the single player oblivion would be hard pressed to say they have done every single dungeon done every single home building, learned every skill, did everything. Most players who play the game... do content and then move on.
I can bet you that if it was just a flat level skill based game, there would be plenty of content that didn't get done.
I honestly can't even follow where your mislead and baseless argument is going anymore. How hard is to understand.
You argue against leveling past content, because it becomes obsolete, or it gets missed and doesn't get done.
I'm saying, the content gets done, but of course some gets missed. And even in a flat level system. Some content will be missed by players, and not every player will do every piece of content.
You can argue on that "but they still can go do that content". They still can go do the content in a level based game. It'd just be easier. You can argue it'd be worthless. But at the end of the journey and finishing skilling up your character in a skill based game, the content would be worthless anyway. Imagine if a developer could use the time spent on early level content on endgame content? Or actually in this case, it would just be "Game content" since everythign is accessable to everyone. Again, if I'm leveling, killing bosses, finding missing items, rescueing people, getting materials, crafting, leveling, that itself is content. You can do everything in the game. You can argue "BUTZ YOU CANTZ DO IT RIGHT AWAY!" Guess what. You still can do it eventually, and you still have content to do in the meanwhile.
Again, if your leveling, everything you do is pointless. Why should you have to waste a ton of time running the same boring quests over and over so that you can one day reach a level where you can do stuff that has a point? Who cares if you kill that boss? His items will be worthless in a couple levels. Who cares if your crafting? Your items have crappy stats because they are for low levels. You can argue "ALLCAPZ MIZSPELED 2 M4KE A POINT" but your argument is still empty. Can you be any more wrong here? "Do stuff that has a point?"
Like what?.... oh yeah! the exact same thing you were doing while leveling, only this time, instead of gaining levels you go up in tiers of gear! This is somehow more satisfactory for you? Honest question too.
What do you do at wow @ 70.
Quests.
Craft.
Dungeons
Battlegrounds.
What do you do at wow while leveling
Quests.
Craft.
Dungeons.
Battlegrounds
Honestly i LOVE a lot of the content while leveling in wow. I don't feel it was wasted. Nor do i feel the developers wasted the time. What makes wow so successful IS the journey. It IS the leveling. It IS the gear tiers.
So yes. Content becomes obsolete for the higher levels, but just because there are higher levels doesnt mean the content never gets done. People leveling still do it. And look at WoW, its a great example of a game aging. It gets more solo friendly as there are less players to group in the areas. Elite areas changed to being normal because thats the only way it'd be done. Rebalancing of dungeon loot to encourage players to do it more so you can have more people interested from a smaller choice.
Heck even to this day, you still can level characters from instance groups only. It takes more effort to form the groups then it used to, but its not impossible by any means. Doing content while leveling has the same value as End game content. Look at WoW there are TONS of quests for 70s to do. And people do them. But would the game be fun if all the quests were just for level 70s? How many zones could you go through before you got bored and stopped? I bet far less then now. I probably wouldn't get through very many zones at all. This would be because I find questing incredibly dull, boring, anti-social, boring, dull, and pointless. If all quests were for 70's, I wouldn't have to do any quests if I didn't want to, I could just do what I wanted to do. Why do I have to be forced to do a bunch of stupid quests just so I can start having fun doing what I want to do when I reach max level? I can't figure out why you are so against freedom and choices. I had fun going leveling my wow characters, so did millions of other people. I did tons of instances, i met people when questing, i joined guilds i never felt anti social and isolated. Heck back when i was playing EQOA which was almost pure forced grouping, i felt more isolated, because I relied on other players and if I was alone I couldn't do anything. Where was the fun in that? Same for when i played DDO.
What are you proposing to be the replacement of quests? Grinding skills on mobs. That's a failure. A guild wars style campaign? No you want a open world. Do you want PvP? Some people don't you can't make games just for PvP, even the PvP oriented WAR offers PvE quests and content. Group PvE? For what incentive? skill grinding? move to the first line, and repeat. Gear tiers? again that's just like leveling.
Even the proposed darkfall has a PvP side to it. You can argue that theres too many quests and they are too grindy. But at the same time people like you propose a system with no actual game content, but rather grind, and fake content by players.
Oh no, social interaction in an MMO, AHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhh.... Fake content is fake content. Roleplaying being some hardcore corporation who has a fake claim on a area and having a pvp conflict. That's lazy development. Any game could easily do this. Remove all the quests, instances, bgs from wow, add open non rvr pvp. And add hotbeds for nodes, make all crafted items BoE and people would say omigosh total guild controlled economy game.
And guess what they added to the game? nothing, just increased spawns of craft materials, and removed BoP crafted. They actually removed more things then they added. Because a developer who relies on his playerbase to create content for them, is one who didn't make content. Social interaction isn't the issue here. It's the shoddy, poorly written, stupidly motivated content that spews from the players that is bad. Nobody would play WoW if it was single player. I wonder why? If i play a mmorpg for 300 hours while leveling, isn't that 300 hours of content, how is that any worse then 300 hours of content just at max level?
Because it's 300 wasted hours you spent alone doing pointless quests and content that gave you rewards that have no value after a couple more levels, and you will never touch again just so you could level up to play with your friends. If I spent 300 hours playing in a flat level system, isn't that time wasted. None of it mattered. Why are you adding a false importance?
And heres a question. Why do you assume you are always behind your friends. If they are truely your friend, and you really were that passionate about playing with them. Then you should have started playing when they were first talking about you. And what's with the hate for solo? If i'm alone questing, it's somehow worse, then grinding mobs with a group Are you telling me the 300 hours you spent playing in a flat level game were important at every step? Why? they gave you skillups(aka levels)? They gave you items?(never got better items during your time playing? If you did then the earlier quest you just did was worthless by your ideas) Again why would you repeat content/dungeons/etc in a skill based game. you really hold this false belief that everything has infinite replayability just because its max level content.
But to tell you the truth, in the end I don't even think there is any argument of whether a skill based or class/level based system is better, it's pretty obvious. Skill systems are superior without a doubt. The real problem is that it isn't casual friendly, and investors don't want to take risks.
I'm sorry, but just because you and your kind have secluded yourselves into small little boxes and preconcieved notions of how "real mmorpgs" should be. and how "you are real gamers for liking what you like". doesn't mean your right.
I'm sorry that you believe every single game in the universe should be exactly like WoW. I'm sorry you hate thinking, freedom, and choices in your games.
It doesn't have to be like wow. In fact I said it before, and I'll say it again. My ideal game is absolutely nothing like wow. In fact tomorrow i'll make a post with the exact details of my ideal mmorpg, that way I can link back to it in these arguements, to shut this arguement down.
My point still remains.
Take risks? I could develop a game right now
No you couldn't.
Yeah, I could. It could be entirely done in flash. That's all it takes, go look at darkfall "Graphics don't matter. Gameplay does"
Developers want to make MONEY, not games that require thought or provide a challenge.
Fixed.
So hostile. I can't figure out why you dislike choices, freedom, and depth in your games. Why must you defend linear games so much? You have a plethora of your ideal simplistic games out for your choosing, yet you attack anyone that wants a game that requires even the slightest bit of intellect. I'm sorry you hate thinking so much, but perhaps you should stick to playing single player Xbox games from now on.
It's because people like you never shut up. And frankly I'm in your boat for ideal games(admittedly not when it comes to class vs skill, since i actually like having interesting classes instead of generic skills)
btw, thank you for pasting a "holier than thou" on me and claiming I put it on myself. The only self righteous one here is you.
Your line about "timmy and his grandma" or whatever was the wording is enough for me to grasp your type.
Just that line alone let's me know that you place yourself higher then the average mmo player, and you consider that you and your type are above them and that has to do with your game selection.
All that happens is the game becomes top heavy so you have to end up grinding 60 odd levels before you can play with everyone else. So you become bored of soloing through the whole game because you played a mmorpg to play with other people. I mean say I wanted to play WOW and all my friends are level 70, well I'd have to grind 69 levels just to be able to playw ith them and really is that fun? No. I want to be able to player with my friends from the moment I log in. When I started up SWG for the first time I was able to join my friends straight away because there was no levels and all professions meant was the amount of skills you knew which made you able to do better damage in combat or better heals etc etc. Another thing I hate is having to pick a class and then make 100 ALTS to play each class. I joing a game like WAR and theres 20 odd classes but all of them suck because none of them are to what I like. So I pick a class I'm not having fun with and the talent tree things are pointless because theres only two cookie cutter builds that are worth playing. Again what I loved in SWG was putting professions and skills together which fit my play style and being able to switch them in game without having to make 100 ALTS.
Why do developers keep trying to copy the class/level based format which is just SHIT.
I'm fed up of it.
I agree. Classes and levels are first generation stuff. Skill based is much more like a real world and aren't MMORPG's supposed to simulate real words?
Theres been a bunch of SW games. Theres been a bunch of lotr games.
And let me tell you this, there are way more fans for star wars then the.....blurb
Maybe I'll express this differently. One is a major gaming franchise, one is an IP. The movie IP could have been made by a number of companies.
I'm not jumping on this bandwagon that WoW has all it's numbers because of one factor only- it didn't. Just there is a distinction here. Neverwinter nights 2, do you think there would be many people who bought Neverwinter 1 that will buy the second? Do you think of this upcomming Starcraft mmo that many fans of the original Starcraft will buy?
What your annoyance is people failing to recognize WoW is a decent game- it is. That has to be a factor for sales in the first place agreed.
levels vs skill systems. Shall I touch this subject? hmm.
I'm struggling to imagine a skill-based game but to look at the endgames of WoW, Everquest, and Everquest2- all these and level-progression has been thrown out the window with an alternate progression. With Everquest that progression was called Alternate Advancement.(AA points) This feature was good as everyone could obviously group but some players had more AA than others. This is my sort of ideal of a game that there is a low barrier to grouping. This doesn't necessarily mean no levelling -it could just be reduced levelling; Guild Wars players get to the level cap in a day(or two) and that system works then via it's skills.
Incidentally, there is two conversations going on here. Classes and skill based, and levels and skill-based. I actually like classes but I would point out some systems that are very flexible to the point that classes aren't really fixed; FFXI and again Guild Wars. Guild Wars does has a sort of class-based structure but you're also essentially picking and mixing skills. FFXI I think you have a loose class structure but you can interchange between that. These both could spell out a potential of a pure skill-based game very easily working.
I think I can condense this entire thread down to a short post: there's not enough diversity in the MMORPG genre. Simple as that. The linear vs sandbox, class/level based vs skill based camps are never going to agree. They both have valid play styles and they both should have a share of the market. WoW knocked everything out of balance...we all know this, we just have to wait for the genre to correct itself.
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Okay this post is in regards to fantasy skills, so please ignore eves space ships since thats not really applicable to my arguement.
1. The illusion of freedom.
I want to use magic and guns and swords weeeeeeeeeeeeeee. A good skill based game will include caps to the total amount of skills you can have at once.
But what is this freedom you achieve? What uniqueness are you getting? You still fall into the same catagories
Healer
Melee dps
Range dps
Debuff/buffing.
There is nothing else.
Healer+melee, classes have that.
Melee+range, classes have that
Buff+range, classes have that
The freedom you achieve is in fact you get to choose a flavor of what style. But the problem with this
FREEDOM COMES WITH A PRICE.
While you can vary your % and change the color of your attacks, you still fit into the archetypes, the price that comes is that each specific thing you can become... has had it's flavor stripped out.
Name me one game that ever had any form of combination of powers that had nearly as much flavor, uniqueness, and style as a wow class. You can't. And that's the price you pay. Oblivion UO etc etc, all carry this same flaw.
This causes the following question to develop.
A. Do you want freedom to combine pools but each pool be more generic? And you end up in archetypes anyway.
B. Do you want pools that come in sets but each pool is more flavorful and interesting?
2. Progression, classes aren't tied to it, and skills aren't immune
There is a illusion that classes come with a grind and a seperation in playerbase. This is not true. guild wars is a prime example, it's class based but you don't have a grind. Then theres ryzom which is skill based and has a grind.
You could choose a class and start at level 1, and there is only that one level.
You could choose skills to train and have to grind for 500 hours to reach the top.
A. Levels and why they are useful. More and more rpgs have realized that people like to play together with their friends, and have started to include ways to mentor lower levels either by them going up or you going down in level.
B. Skill based, there is a power that comes with higher skill levels, it's up to the individual game to decide how much. But a new player still is going to be a new player, with a equal "player skill" on entry. And as i said before skill based and class based can have the same grind and power balance. But just like class based you could mentor up and down theoretically to gain a false strength of higher/lower skill level.
C. Content, how do you make content for people to experience with no progression from said content. If it was easy to skill up and you could fight anything at any level, what is the purpose of skilling up? The answer would be PvP. But what exactly is the PvP system? Is it going to be GvG real world? RvR real world? Is there even going to be PvP? Is it going to be a pure pvp game? Theres a assumption that the only thing people want to do is PvP, and that should be the only important thing in a mmorpg.
Most people who argue for skill based also do not want a system of gear tiers. So what importance would PvE have? Why do PvE players have to suffer for PvPrs(the whiniest bunch out there)? To get crafting mats? What if they didn't want to craft or had a decent set already. why would they go PvE? They wouldn't. But then the arguement of "this is a good time to go pvp then! Again not everyone wants to PvP, it's why there are a ton of populated wow PvE servers, and even on PvP servers theres a LOT of PvE(for PvE gear!)
Levels allow people to play through content with a purpose. The quests can offer items, exp, and fun. And allow you to be doing something besides grinding up skills. This is a big + for the average mmorpg player. Dungeons can be included for certain level ranges, and skill rangers. Look at WoW, as you level instances become more difficult and require more teamwork and structure. It eases people into the game, and into the natural harder raiding end game.
Skills can do the same thing but at the end of the day look at WoW, if you remove levels, it actually has a skill based system under it, leveling weapon skills, and in the beginning magic skills leveled like this as well, it's why when you do SFK you get the -100 skill for spells, because it was originally like that. And it's generally HATED by the playerbase, they HATE grinding the skills, it's NOT fun. If that was the entire way to progress in the game, nobody would play wow.
So while you end up making a bunch of content worthless by the time you hit 70, you also did alot of the content between 1-70. Whereas in a system where it's all just... normal content, you'd still have to spend the time doing all the content, and you probably wouldn't want to repeat the content either. So after 200 hours of playing you still negated the same amount of content.
Gamers these days are NOT interested in grinding mobs for skill or exp anymore. They are NOT interested in games where the entire game is one long chat room, with some stupid guild conflicts over silly reasonings or stupid officers.
Skill system hasn't been added since it's simply not needed, and it restricts developer freedom, they have to balance every sit around any possible combination. If 2h swords was overpowered with healing, healing and 2h would get nerfed which would(does, and did) hurt both 2h and healing in other combinations just to make this one combo more balanced.
World of Warcraft is based on the Warcraft IP which is a huge license. A lot of us were playing the RTS way before the MMO. So naturally when the MMO came out a lot of us were interested in playing it
Developers license huge IPs for a reason. Its nice to have a big fanbase ahead of time
World of Warcraft is based on the Warcraft IP which is a huge license. A lot of us were playing the RTS way before the MMO. So naturally when the MMO came out a lot of us were interested in playing it
Developers license huge IPs for a reason. Its nice to have a big fanbase ahead of time
star wars was a big IP, lotr is a big IP, Matrix was a big IP.
Why weren't they in wows spot?
I think what the OP meant is that Levels don't work in PvP centric mmorpgs.
Played: Runescape, World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning
Darkfall no lvls no xp skill based!
Release dec 31-2008!
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
World of Warcraft is based on the Warcraft IP which is a huge license. A lot of us were playing the RTS way before the MMO. So naturally when the MMO came out a lot of us were interested in playing it
Developers license huge IPs for a reason. Its nice to have a big fanbase ahead of time
It has nothing to do with IP, it has to do with accessability. Level systems are simpler, plain and... simple. WoW is incredibly easy to get into, and takes little thought to play and progress. Kill stuff or do quests until the level on your head increases, place talent point wherever you want. Very little thinking involved. This makes WoW incredibly accessable to the casual market, and with other things, makes it as popular as it is.
Skill systems require more thinking. In SWG you had to try and lay out your skill points, figure out what boxes you wanted, where the moves you wanted were, what combination would give you the best stats in a particular field, and then you had to grind out the skills and try out the build. In Eve, you must map which skills you want first, what you actually want to be doing, and then let time train you. This requires a lot of "downtime" in the casuals eye's. Thinking, planning, and overall freedom isn't wanted by little Timmy and grandma Lucy. They just want to get in the game, kill stuff, and be rewarded. The lowest common denominator wins in the eyes of the investors.
Level systems have an inherent flaw though. It seperates the playerbase, wastes content, and is too restricting. Players that aren't the same level (or close to it) cannot play together. So if you don't join at launch, you will automatically be behind the curve. This means that if you have friends that play, your goal is to power level through the low levels so that you can reach max level and play with your friends. This brings me to my next point in that developers waste a TON of time making zones, areas, and content that will be power leveled through once and never played again. A skill based system can have all of it's zones useful to all players, but level systems can't.
Imagine if a developer could use the time spent on early level content on endgame content? Or actually in this case, it would just be "Game content" since everythign is accessable to everyone.
But to tell you the truth, in the end I don't even think there is any argument of whether a skill based or class/level based system is better, it's pretty obvious. Skill systems are superior without a doubt. The real problem is that it isn't casual friendly, and investors don't want to take risks.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I think there's a little bit of a difference. Warcraft is a big gaming IP, while the others are simply IP's of films. Bioware's upcoming mmorpg will be a well-recognized gaming and film IP so that would be expected to be quite big. (Likely nowhere nr as big as WoW though as it's more aimed at an audience and I don't think it will have sales right across the globe- ie. Asia and some other places that WoW has been v. successful in)
I think there's a little bit of a difference. Warcraft is a big gaming IP, while the others are simply IP's of films. Bioware's upcoming mmorpg will be a well-recognized gaming and film IP so that would be expected to be quite big. (Likely nowhere nr as big as WoW though as it's more aimed at an audience and I don't think it will have sales right across the globe- ie. Asia and some other places that WoW has been v. successful in)
Theres been a bunch of SW games. Theres been a bunch of lotr games.
And let me tell you this, there are way more fans for star wars then there was for warcraft before wow was released, there wasn't even a comparison where you could argue the fanbase.
your excuse doesn't fly.
The truth is, it wasn't the IP, it wasn't blizzard. That would have been enough to sell perhaps a decent amount comparable to others.
It was the fact that the game was and is fun, and one of the best on the markets. Just because people consider themselves GANGSTA HARDCORE PIMPS! and need some HARDCORE SHIZIT. Doesn't change that. It's accessability, it's fun, everything about the game itself regardless of IP bought the fans.
250k people play EVE, 11 million play WoW. The people have choosen which system they like most.
World of Warcraft is based on the Warcraft IP which is a huge license. A lot of us were playing the RTS way before the MMO. So naturally when the MMO came out a lot of us were interested in playing it
Developers license huge IPs for a reason. Its nice to have a big fanbase ahead of time
It has nothing to do with IP, it has to do with accessability. Level systems are simpler, plain and... simple. WoW is incredibly easy to get into, and takes little thought to play and progress. Kill stuff or do quests until the level on your head increases, place talent point wherever you want. Very little thinking involved. This makes WoW incredibly accessable to the casual market, and with other things, makes it as popular as it is.
I'm a hardcore gamer, and let me tell you something, you are not a better gamer then me, nor are you better then casual gamers. You and your ilk have a percieved notion of superiority and frankly it's sickening.
Skill systems require more thinking. In SWG you had to try and lay out your skill points, figure out what boxes you wanted, where the moves you wanted were, what combination would give you the best stats in a particular field, and then you had to grind out the skills and try out the build.
This is entirely possible in a class based and level based system, the fact that you even say "grind" ruins your arguement because it's the same word used to condemn level and class games.
In Eve, you must map which skills you want first, what you actually want to be doing, and then let time train you. This requires a lot of "downtime" in the casuals eye's. Thinking, planning, and overall freedom isn't wanted by little Timmy and grandma Lucy. They just want to get in the game, kill stuff, and be rewarded. The lowest common denominator wins in the eyes of the investors.
I'm a hardcore gamer, and i'll tell you something. It is downtime. When i play games, i play them to play them. I don't know anyone besides your ilk who have developed some weird self punishing viewpoint of having restrictive and needlessly complicated gameplay and systems, just for the sake of having them. At the end of the day, all of this stuff is simply that. Extra systems added on just to complicate things. It's not even about depth. You can have great depth without making things needlessly frustrating.
Level systems have an inherent flaw though. It seperates the playerbase, wastes content, and is too restricting. Players that aren't the same level (or close to it) cannot play together. So if you don't join at launch, you will automatically be behind the curve. This means that if you have friends that play, your goal is to power level through the low levels so that you can reach max level and play with your friends.
Here's the thing, it does seperate the playerbase, but it also sections off the playerbase into people with similar goals. So while you may see it as 1000 people spread into tiers of content. The people in each tier generally are around people who want to kill XX, want to go dungeon XX, want to do XX quest, and need XX gear. So it becomes much easier to actually play together.
When you unleash players into a world where they can go anywhere and do anything without any limitations, you also are not giving people common goals besides grinding XX skill, or grinding XX crafting materials. It changes to be something similar to FFXI, meeting in XX town, and being LFG grinding at XX grinding spot(the best one available).
Content changes from stuff being doing, to stuff being grinded. People don't just wander aroudn the world randomly slaying stuff. Rather they go to heavy populated areas, form groups to go the best camps, and then grind. It's exactly what EQ was, for this same reason.
Also mmorpgs are toying around with mentoring systems. Which helps friends play together. Also caravans where you share exp with your friends
This brings me to my next point in that developers waste a TON of time making zones, areas, and content that will be power leveled through once and never played again. A skill based system can have all of it's zones useful to all players, but level systems can't.
How naive. Let me ask you this.
How do players level without actually doing the content?
How many times do you see the same content being done over and over and over in skill based games. Are you going to say that if everyone was just max level in wow, and all content for that level. That people would quest in any of the zones more than once? Would they do westfall, over and over and over? Just because it was skill approriate.
Honestly, where is this magical content that doesn't get used you seem to think exists. If you are refering to player made PvP conflicts over resource nodes and areas, then that's not game designed content, and is not something that ties into leveling or skills.
You have to do the content to level, you may miss things here and there. but again, name me a skill based mmo out there, that everyone did every single piece of content ever made on every single one of their characters? I can't even come close to say anyone who did this. Heck even the most hardcore fans of the single player oblivion would be hard pressed to say they have done every single dungeon done every single home building, learned every skill, did everything. Most players who play the game... do content and then move on.
I can bet you that if it was just a flat level skill based game, there would be plenty of content that didn't get done.
Imagine if a developer could use the time spent on early level content on endgame content? Or actually in this case, it would just be "Game content" since everythign is accessable to everyone.
Again, if I'm leveling, killing bosses, finding missing items, rescueing people, getting materials, crafting, leveling, that itself is content. You can do everything in the game. You can argue "BUTZ YOU CANTZ DO IT RIGHT AWAY!" Guess what. You still can do it eventually, and you still have content to do in the meanwhile.
Doing content while leveling has the same value as End game content. Look at WoW there are TONS of quests for 70s to do. And people do them. But would the game be fun if all the quests were just for level 70s? How many zones could you go through before you got bored and stopped? I bet far less then now. You can argue that theres too many quests and they are too grindy. But at the same time people like you propose a system with no actual game content, but rather grind, and fake content by players.
If i play a mmorpg for 300 hours while leveling, isn't that 300 hours of content, how is that any worse then 300 hours of content just at max level?
Again why would you repeat content/dungeons/etc in a skill based game. you really hold this false belief that everything has infinite replayability just because its max level content.
But to tell you the truth, in the end I don't even think there is any argument of whether a skill based or class/level based system is better, it's pretty obvious. Skill systems are superior without a doubt. The real problem is that it isn't casual friendly, and investors don't want to take risks.
I'm sorry, but just because you and your kind have secluded yourselves into small little boxes and preconcieved notions of how "real mmorpgs" should be. and how "you are real gamers for liking what you like". doesn't mean your right.
Take risks? I could develop a game right now, that just instant slayed people, while they fought the interface and control schemes trying to actually play the game with the lack of real content, instead just randomly modeled objects at random points in the world. And that would be eaten up by your kind. Simply because it's so hardcore and leetz.
Developers want to make GOOD GAMES, not to fulfill a self punishing ideal behind the types of games you want.
LOL
Hey Bladin, here's a clue: Stop trying to sound like some comic book super villain. You are not Sephiroth or Lex Luthor and you aren't impressing anyone with your bright red text either. Your ilk...lol
I personally liked the combination level/skill system that was used in Asheron's Call, but I can see the downside of it. You basically had to have a certain 'build' in order to compete in PvP on an even level. Sure there were a few modifications to the build that were optional depending on what you wanted to do on the side, but most of the skills were pretty much either useful or wasteful. This lead to people realizing that after playing their character for months they were 'gimped' because they picked the skills that they thought would be fun, rather than following a template.
It's hard to keep that from happening, because it is hard to balance all of the possible skill combinations in order to make every skill as viable as another.
It was nice to have skill points that you could use at any time, but it took away that feeling of accomplishment from gaining a level.
That's why casual players like the class based system, because no matter what choices they make in their skill trees at least they know they aren't going to be completely useless.
I like skill based games because I like sitting down and figuring out what skills will work well together and when I should get them. It makes me feel like my character is truely unique. But most of today's MMOers aren't old school pen and paper RPGers, they are videogamers. They just want to play and have fun.
It's not my style of gaming, but my style of gaming is history.
So really, I agree with you. But you don't have to be so damn condescending about it.
World of Warcraft is based on the Warcraft IP which is a huge license. A lot of us were playing the RTS way before the MMO. So naturally when the MMO came out a lot of us were interested in playing it
Developers license huge IPs for a reason. Its nice to have a big fanbase ahead of time
It has nothing to do with IP, it has to do with accessability. Level systems are simpler, plain and... simple. WoW is incredibly easy to get into, and takes little thought to play and progress. Kill stuff or do quests until the level on your head increases, place talent point wherever you want. Very little thinking involved. This makes WoW incredibly accessable to the casual market, and with other things, makes it as popular as it is.
Skill systems require more thinking. In SWG you had to try and lay out your skill points, figure out what boxes you wanted, where the moves you wanted were, what combination would give you the best stats in a particular field, and then you had to grind out the skills and try out the build. In Eve, you must map which skills you want first, what you actually want to be doing, and then let time train you. This requires a lot of "downtime" in the casuals eye's. Thinking, planning, and overall freedom isn't wanted by little Timmy and grandma Lucy. They just want to get in the game, kill stuff, and be rewarded. The lowest common denominator wins in the eyes of the investors.
Level systems have an inherent flaw though. It seperates the playerbase, wastes content, and is too restricting. Players that aren't the same level (or close to it) cannot play together. So if you don't join at launch, you will automatically be behind the curve. This means that if you have friends that play, your goal is to power level through the low levels so that you can reach max level and play with your friends. This brings me to my next point in that developers waste a TON of time making zones, areas, and content that will be power leveled through once and never played again. A skill based system can have all of it's zones useful to all players, but level systems can't.
Imagine if a developer could use the time spent on early level content on endgame content? Or actually in this case, it would just be "Game content" since everythign is accessable to everyone.
But to tell you the truth, in the end I don't even think there is any argument of whether a skill based or class/level based system is better, it's pretty obvious. Skill systems are superior without a doubt. The real problem is that it isn't casual friendly, and investors don't want to take risks.
According to records WoW was #1 MMO *overnight*. The day it launched everyone I knew was in lines to get it. The stores couldnt get enough copies. I remember I had to search all over town
It had a LOT to do with IP. Blizzard is a huge brand recognition alone. I've been with them since Blackthrone
There is no way WoW would be as popular as it is without that IP. There is just no way. I contend if WoW were made by another studio it would not have done as well as it has
And skill-based systems do not have to take more thinking. Checkout Crackdown on xbox 360. That's how simple skill-based can be. You play the game and the game figures out what activities you like and strengtens your character for you. You dont need a spreadsheet or advanced apps to make a character
EVE is just a pain in the ass to make a new character. I'd say even Elder Scrolls and Fable1&2 made much easier to use skill-based systems.
I'm with you though
There should be only 1 mmorpg and it should be world of warcraft... its so perfect , 10 million morons can't be wrong. Any suggestion that deviates from the all superior level warcraft system is ulimately wrong and I will NEVER listen to anyone's point, they're just dumb. come on people ... 10 million people play WoW. Level grinding is the only way a game system should be.
Added some more responses here. Perhaps EVE is a different animal altogether because the spaceships we pilot sort of "Level Up" in a way. So EVE might sharply contrast with SWG pre-CU
lol... I know right, i felt bad about actually posting so offensively. But it's just... I've grown sick to !@%^!@^!@ death, of these people waving their epeens around about being hardcore and real gamers.
That they KNOW the true way games should be made/played. They KNOW that people who don't agree, or don't like their ideas, aren't real mmorpg players.
I'm sorry, but just because you and your kind have secluded yourselves into small little boxes and preconcieved notions of how "real mmorpgs" should be. and how "you are real gamers for liking what you like". doesn't mean your right.
I'm sorry that you believe every single game in the universe should be exactly like WoW. I'm sorry you hate thinking, freedom, and choices in your games.
Take risks? I could develop a game right now
No you couldn't.
Developers want to make MONEY, not games that require thought or provide a challenge.
Fixed.
So hostile. I can't figure out why you dislike choices, freedom, and depth in your games. Why must you defend linear games so much? You have a plethora of your ideal simplistic games out for your choosing, yet you attack anyone that wants a game that requires even the slightest bit of intellect. I'm sorry you hate thinking so much, but perhaps you should stick to playing single player Xbox games from now on.
btw, thank you for pasting a "holier than thou" on me and claiming I put it on myself. The only self righteous one here is you.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
lol... I know right, i felt bad about actually posting so offensively. But it's just... I've grown sick to !@%^!@^!@ death, of these people waving their epeens around about being hardcore and real gamers.
That they KNOW the true way games should be made/played. They KNOW that people who don't agree, or don't like their ideas, aren't real mmorpg players.
Go re-read my entire post again. NO WHERE did I do any of that. In fact, you are the one waving your epeen about how hardcore you are(you say it more than once) and how you KNOW how games should be made.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I'm sorry, but just because you and your kind have secluded yourselves into small little boxes and preconcieved notions of how "real mmorpgs" should be. and how "you are real gamers for liking what you like". doesn't mean your right.
I'm sorry that you believe every single game in the universe should be exactly like WoW. I'm sorry you hate thinking, freedom, and choices in your games.
It doesn't have to be like wow. In fact I said it before, and I'll say it again. My ideal game is absolutely nothing like wow. In fact tomorrow i'll make a post with the exact details of my ideal mmorpg, that way I can link back to it in these arguements, to shut this arguement down.
My point still remains.
Take risks? I could develop a game right now
No you couldn't.
Yeah, I could. It could be entirely done in flash. That's all it takes, go look at darkfall "Graphics don't matter. Gameplay does"
Developers want to make MONEY, not games that require thought or provide a challenge.
Fixed.
So hostile. I can't figure out why you dislike choices, freedom, and depth in your games. Why must you defend linear games so much? You have a plethora of your ideal simplistic games out for your choosing, yet you attack anyone that wants a game that requires even the slightest bit of intellect. I'm sorry you hate thinking so much, but perhaps you should stick to playing single player Xbox games from now on.
It's because people like you never shut up. And frankly I'm in your boat for ideal games(admittedly not when it comes to class vs skill, since i actually like having interesting classes instead of generic skills)
btw, thank you for pasting a "holier than thou" on me and claiming I put it on myself. The only self righteous one here is you.
Your line about "timmy and his grandma" or whatever was the wording is enough for me to grasp your type.
Just that line alone let's me know that you place yourself higher then the average mmo player, and you consider that you and your type are above them and that has to do with your game selection.
I agree. Classes and levels are first generation stuff. Skill based is much more like a real world and aren't MMORPG's supposed to simulate real words?
Maybe I'll express this differently. One is a major gaming franchise, one is an IP. The movie IP could have been made by a number of companies.
I'm not jumping on this bandwagon that WoW has all it's numbers because of one factor only- it didn't. Just there is a distinction here. Neverwinter nights 2, do you think there would be many people who bought Neverwinter 1 that will buy the second? Do you think of this upcomming Starcraft mmo that many fans of the original Starcraft will buy?
What your annoyance is people failing to recognize WoW is a decent game- it is. That has to be a factor for sales in the first place agreed.
levels vs skill systems. Shall I touch this subject? hmm.
I'm struggling to imagine a skill-based game but to look at the endgames of WoW, Everquest, and Everquest2- all these and level-progression has been thrown out the window with an alternate progression. With Everquest that progression was called Alternate Advancement.(AA points) This feature was good as everyone could obviously group but some players had more AA than others. This is my sort of ideal of a game that there is a low barrier to grouping. This doesn't necessarily mean no levelling -it could just be reduced levelling; Guild Wars players get to the level cap in a day(or two) and that system works then via it's skills.
Incidentally, there is two conversations going on here. Classes and skill based, and levels and skill-based. I actually like classes but I would point out some systems that are very flexible to the point that classes aren't really fixed; FFXI and again Guild Wars. Guild Wars does has a sort of class-based structure but you're also essentially picking and mixing skills. FFXI I think you have a loose class structure but you can interchange between that. These both could spell out a potential of a pure skill-based game very easily working.
I think I can condense this entire thread down to a short post: there's not enough diversity in the MMORPG genre. Simple as that. The linear vs sandbox, class/level based vs skill based camps are never going to agree. They both have valid play styles and they both should have a share of the market. WoW knocked everything out of balance...we all know this, we just have to wait for the genre to correct itself.
If Guildwars were a real MMO then it would be the best in my eyes. I like the idea of being able to create characters at max level.