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Hey you! Get the PVP out of my MMORPG !
fearless47
Member UncommonPosts: 34
I have played alot of MMO's over the years and enjoyed countless hours playing them. I have noticed lately that none of the new games out there are holding my interest. I keep trying the latest and geatest games that get released and I am completely bored before two months are over.
I have been trying to figure out why this is. I know that I will never experience the thrill of the game as much as I did in EQ when it was first released. Heck , I can remember my palms sweating the first time I was in a raid in the Plain of Hate. We actually had to be ported in and run around the outside of the zone, then log and relog back in to get rid of the aggro. I was actually excited, those times are long gone though.
I probably will never get that feeling playing a game again. It was new and it was fresh. But as the game progressed, a new trend was creeping in. It started in an arena - PVP. Yes it invaded my MMORPG. Slowly and surely it crept it's evil ways in and just kept taking over little by little. Next thing I knew, I was being nerfed by the almighty nerf bat. What is this, I thought to myself. I have never had problems grouping or soloing, my buddies never cared if I could nuke something in 2 shots.
Not now though, I was told I was just too powerful, I was not designed to nuke another player in one shot. Hey I complained, I never PVP and I am the all powerful wizard who nukes stuff and looks cool doing it. But it just fell on deaf ears.
And that was just the beginning, PVP grew and grew. Now almost all MMORPG's are being designed with PVP in mind from the begginning. And what happens to my MMORPG, it grows smaller and smaller, I have to walk down narrow paths, I get hit by nerf bats, people complain that I am too powerful or too weak.
I lose my community, my guild shrinks in size since they are too busy balancing PVP that they cannot make any new content. They blame it all on instancing, but I know it was that evil PVP that slowly crept in and took over when my back was turned. If only I could have fought it back then, Stopped the flow of evil before it took what adventuring I held so dearly in my heart.
Now it is in full force, my MMORPG is acutally a FPS with a small adventure thrown in. How can I immerse myself in a fantasy land, if it only takes me weeks to grow up and only a small area to grow in. To just spend my days fighting my friends over who can kill each other in 5 seconds.
Bring back the adventure I say. Make the land huge, The characters powerful, The classes many, the crafting a lifetime and the quests something to die for. Take away that Evil PVP before it takes over every memory of MMORPG's we have. If you are going to make a PVP, then make it, but do not put it in my MMORPG.
Please, please get thaat PVP out of my MMORPG !
Comments
/sign
PvP is what is killing the RPG element in todays MMO's. Developers are so focused on the endless balancing of classes and abilities for PvP that thay're neglecting the one aspect that makes it a MMORPG in the first place.
I don't mind the odd scuffle with another player now and then, but it is becoming the primary focus. I want to play a roleplaying game with deep quests, storylines and lore - not Battlefield: Camelot.
I was beginning to think I was the only one that felt this way!
I often tell everybody I play with I'm a carebear to get out of "We're going to go kill off Order, coming?"... the problem is that once you're level 15ish in WAR, if you're not PvPing, you're not gaining levels. Finding people even doing PQs after that is next to impossible, and the sheer # of useless, undone, PQs in each zone shows that while the content is there, it wasn't exactly designed to be played.
When we lost our PvE staple is beyond me. I never liked playing against other people, I absolutely hate wearing a headset in order to accomplish the dumbest of goals (anybody else remember pounding out novels while Discing in Tribes?), and every time I see games come out it looks like the effort that could go to fixing PvE content or adding MORE content gets sent to the PvP side of the fence... then the patches follow, skipping what could be fixed content to fix PvP or balance classes.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
The solution being skills having different balances for PvP. it might hit for 2K on an NPC, but on a player it'll only hit for 500.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
That's how I've been feeling lately as well. And looking at the list of upcoming games, it seems it will be the trend for awhile.
But I don't know if PvP is completely to blame. Folks complaining on the forums about any class that seems better than their own seems to have had an impact as well. I loved the differences in the classes back in EQ1 and how powerful many could become. But as time went on, for every ability someone gained, someone else felt that their toes were stepped on and made their feelings known.
So they made EQ2 and balanced the life out of every class. No one is particularly powerful but they're all balanced. I love many aspects of the game and still play, but the classes are sterile and boring (just my opinion). I'd much rather have things a little less balanced and more fun.
I completely agree with the OP. PvP n PvE don't belong together. For PvP all classes hafta be nerfed to be balanced so everybody has a chance to beat anybody else. In PvE I don't think there needs to be as much balancing, some classes are weaker while others are stronger.
Would be a nicer PvE experience if devs could concentrate on more content, storylines and other PvE stuffs. While PvP games could benifit by having more class balance, and a better PvP system.
The whole problem with the PvP issues in MMOs is that it's basically impossible to balance group PvE and individual PvP. You want to have character variety, and you want all characters in that variety to have a job to do, but at the same time they all want to be able to own face in a duel.
I'll illustrate using the old paper-rock-scissors model.
PvE:
Group Leader: "Ok! Paper, get on those rocks! Rock, stop those scissors! Scissors, you know what to do! Tape: keep the paper up!
PvP:
Rock: "Paper is OP"
Paper: "ZOMG nerf Rock"
Scissors: "QQ more Paper, How come Rock is 2 shotting everything"
Tape: "This is boring, and scissors still kill me"
The problem is that people don't approach PvP as a team issue even though it should be, they see it as who can I. ME. MYSELF. pwn the the face so my e-Peen will get bigger? PvP is seen as an individual accomplishment which everyone has to be balanced, which everyone has to be able to accomplish the same task (ultimately, even if they accomplish it diffrently) which means PvE is going to be boring.
Then again everyone wants to know why THEY suck at tanking or DPS or healing etc in PvE, so.. yeah.
Active: WoW
Semi-retired: STO
Fully retired: UO, EQ, AC, SWG, FFXI, DDO:EU, PoTBS, AoC, EvE
Tried: EQ2, Tabula Rasa, Auto-Assault, Isteria, LotRO, Wizard 101
Looking forward to: Star Citizen
First let me start off by saying great first post.
I find myself agreeing with you Fearless47. Looking at MMORPG's the role playing factor is really lost when the whole idea of PvP is brought up, because in reality if you're spending more time thinking about what classes can kill you versus what classes you can kill you're probably not focusing on the adventure (which is what sort of constitutes an RPG). I also think you're right in wanting crafting, adventure, deep quests, that's really what makes our characters personal to us.
That being said I feel torn, becuase I actually love PvP. I like the idea of stacking yourself up against other people and seeing how good you are- on a side note I also kind of like the "omg UR so OP'd" threads because they're funny. I also like seeing how MMO's incorperate PvP. Some seem to do it fairly seamlessly, I would say because of the ideas behind Warhammer and all out war PvP makes sense there, However in LOTRO I didn't like the "monster" system because it felt really forced.
I think you're right in a lot of ways that MMO's don't need PvP, I mean look at "Fury" a strictly PvP MMO and it failed flat out, as opposed to EQ which didn't even have PvP at first and heck people are still playing it.
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
Don't like PVP? Play an RPG... with co-op. -.-
I want to play with people. Not with computer generated monsters all day. If any thing, they should put the MM back into MMORPG instead of making it a Mass Single-player Online Role Playing Game.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
so you pretty much cheated and used an exploit...REAL COOL
i do kind of agree with the rest of it though, sort of.. i hate pvp in mmorpgs, i see it as being the toughest pansy on the block. and it definitely fucks up other aspects of the game because of the balancing act and time consumed in developing it. in some games it is MEANT to be there though, i mean DAOC would be a monstrous POS without it (and guild wars is a monstrous POS even with it).
what you are doing though is failing to adapt to the changing scene around you. just like rpg's are hardly ever menu driven anymore (or 2d for that matter) and are leaning closer to action games (if only they would cross THAT threshold). play LOTRO if you dont want any pvp (its there but only if you REALLY want to do it) personally i think its boring, but thats just me. the real question is why are you playing games that have it if you hate it?
between lag spiking, mass ganking, doing questionable acts for gold (sexual or monetary) to get gear, macroing, and various forms of camping i dont see why anyone bothers with it. its even worse than playing fighting games online (KoF ,street fighter, DOA) because those games are supposed to involve reflexes, not simply sequencing.
luckily there is no pvp in offline games.
net play rpg's do kinda rock.
i DONT want to play with people, why would i? everyone has been in "that party" where you spam for members for 45 min, wait 15 min for everyone to get to the same place, get into location only to have some wanker say "oop phone brb" and go silent for 15 min. and that is just 1 possibility! theres also the wanker who does the least getting the best drops, idiots that pull whole rooms and wipe the party and then say "lol oops", or the nerd that needs it all and only rolls "NEED". screw that!
sure sometimes you do need a party to complete objectives, and even better if its all friends! but forced partying is a quick way to get me to not play a game (example DDO, i have never touched).
edit:oh i forgot the whole "power level me?" and leechery b/s.
Ok well, I think you are wrong and here is why:
WoW isn't about PvP (I'm assuming many of you who dislike PvP enjoyed WoW), yet it sucks as an MMO. Many of the post-WoW MMOs are trying to be WoW and consequently suck. Face it, this is a lame attempt to "prove" once and for all that games should be grind-fest, single-player, shit games. I for one completely disagree with that position.
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Don't like pve go play a FPS I like to play with people too but I liek to cooperate with them to solve a challenge not compete against them in an unlevel playing field where character stats, abilities and levels are all different.. See these kind of arguments are cyclical. I don't actually feel that way I just wanted to illustrate a point. I love pvp and I love pve. But the two do not HAVE to be in the same game. Some games pulled it off in the past like UO but their wasn't a whole lot to chose from back then. Plus companies are looking for bigger numbers now. having 200K people in a game used to be enough, now its considereed a fail. Their has been a recent trend of games that try to do pvp and pve but they are failing to do eaither of them well. maybe this is a clue that pve and pvp need to be split into two seperate genres.
Yes the pve genre probably won't be as big as the pvp but they should still turn a tidy profit and they might do better than some people think. Putting pve and pvp into the same game is like fitting a square peg into a round hole. I have been on this epic crusade on these boards preaching this, the compnay that does a pvp only game from the ground up is gonna make a fortune and I (and a few others) are throwing this idea out for free. When will someone get it???!!!!
You may just be right. After all, PvP in the big MMORPG titles today is a total joke.
This.
I was there back then too and I'm gonna call it. Your post is full of inaccuracies.
This MMO you speak of is City of heroes
It was known as most unbalanced PVE game on the planet. Back then, you had 8 man groups. 8 MAN. 7 PEOPLE would sit at the door. Sit down and do nothing while 1 MAN cleared the entire instance solo
Statesman clearly said he nerfed this because the game was way too easy he felt. The post is probably on the official somewhere. He was on an airplane and while playing a GBA game (Mario?) he got inspired and got some coob up his keister and nerfed everyone to hell. Controllers got their pets nerfed and so forth
The game was a train wreck of imbalance and still was when I left. Great game though. I still resub sometimes to look at it.
And still to this day 2 people can duo an 8 man instance last time I played not too long ago. So 6 people can get PL'ed sitting at the door. Not complaining, I liked it.
But you're getting all these carebears rilled up when infact the nerfs were PVE related. Sure, maybe some nerfs were PVP related but seriously, devs can easily balance all this stuff before launching.
PVP did not bring about the biggest nerf in CoX. PVE did. That Enhancement diversification was PVE related
The CoX devs dont even care much for pvp. Castle and others claimed they didnt even play pvp much haha. Thats why pvp was not there at launch. And only less than 5% of populace were pvping they said. So they didnt nerf ya for the minority. They even made many powers work totally different in pvp.
I'm calling this post for what it is, Nonsense. [edit- I got carried away here, its not -nonsense- but doesn't tell the whole story]
Also, CoX was a pure pve game at launch but YOU failed them. You guys. They would never had to add PVP if the quarterly reports didnt indicate subscriber loss. When they added pvp (CoV), their subs soared to new heights. PvP helped injhect new life into a dying game. [edit- I got carried away too, wasn't dying per se but they were for sure declining subs since launch]
Guild Wars specifically has skills that are only usable in PvE. PvP does not have to ruin or even affect PvE. Just because the MMORPGs you played were designed poorly does not mean PvP is bad.
Blame to designers. We have examples of well designed game not letting this problem happen.
Note:
Sometimes PvP exposes problems with PvE oriented skills and demonstrates they are more powerful than they should be. This is a special case because PvP is essenitally like having a constant set of very good professional testers. In those cases the skills should be changed. This happened with a few Guild Wars skills mainly because PvPers came up with novel ways to use them such that if PvEers had done so they would have been imbalanced against NPcs as well.
This is no different han normal PvE balancing and should not be used to piss on PvP.
The real problem with PvP is it attractsa bunch of destructive a-holes to a community. Who would ram a game into the ground just to grow their e-peen. Evnei f some PvPers are great and large portion are immature POS.
absolutely.
Why don't you play an FPS for that? Or do you like "character progression"?
I have a friend who loves PVP and hates FPS. He is very frustrated with FPS. But in mmorpg, he can spend lots of time to get great gear then enter PVP and win a lot. He loves mmorpg pvp with overgearing.
I'd personally have a lot more respect for pure pve'ers if the PVE they did were more challenging and dynamic. but as it is right now, mmorpg PVE is really kiddie level simple. The mobs do the samethings. super static.
so too me, no offense, PVE'ers seem like Farmers. I cant tell a legit farmer from an illegal one
At least in PvP you get to fight a dynamic thinking opponent and you can make an impact in games like EVE in PvP (fight for land, etc).
If I can't make a difference with what I do- then there is no point in me being in the world really.
I dont consider being first to kill a Boss making an Impact. You're not helping anyone but yourselves with all those shiny jewels
Actually I do respect PVe'ers a bit more in games with death penalties. Because if you see a person about to get killed by a mob and you save their life- you made a difference for that person cause XP debt can be harsh. And lost of a ship in EVE can be tough
Why don't you play an FPS for that? Or do you like "character progression"?
I have a friend who loves PVP and hates FPS. He is very frustrated with FPS. But in mmorpg, he can spend lots of time to get great gear then enter PVP and win a lot. He loves mmorpg pvp with overgearing.
Truth is we all have alternatives; albeit they tend to appear in lesser forms. PvPers have FPS to fall back to but they usually just dont give us our 'fix'.
PvEers can fall back to Coop RPGs and I love those sooooo much. But they are so few. Only like Neverwinter Nights/NWN 2 and soon Diablo 3 and Guild Wars if you are willing to agree its at least a coop
I buy every coop I can get but they tend to be too short and its hard to get friends to redo the content with me. MMORPG makes it much easier to make lots of friends to play with cause u can just be walking along in a forest and make a friend right there (which just happened too me just this way the other night!)
The problem is that there are a lot of people who like a lot of different things. The developers try to satisfy all the groups. War is a game that was made for PvP so to expect good PvE I guess is not very resonable. I do wish they would make a great PvE group based game like EQ again one day. A game that is balenced around group PvE instead of solo PvE or PvP. I think part of the uninteresting PvE content these days is because the devs are trying to fit so many different things into the game they can't accomplish a good PvE game. To make a good PvE game you have to concentrate solely on PvE.
Why don't you play an FPS for that? Or do you like "character progression"?
I have a friend who loves PVP and hates FPS. He is very frustrated with FPS. But in mmorpg, he can spend lots of time to get great gear then enter PVP and win a lot. He loves mmorpg pvp with overgearing.
Oh yeah, the big fish/small pond situation.
I love playing FPS for what they are. Yes, the average kill:death ratio is 1:1. Big deal. I'm very proud when I get anything like 2:1 or 3:1 (this is actually very very hard when playing against good players (as opposed to casual games where 3-5:1 are easily possible).
Seriously, if a person likes overgearing then 'pwning noobs' then he's not a PvPer, he's an arrogant snot.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
The problem is that MMORPGs are beginning to focus on JUST PvP.
We need both PvP AND PvE in order to have a good game.
When it comes down to it...I want many paths to follow, not just PvP.
I like my dungeons and quests. I like my open world PvP and BGs. I like my epic raids. I like capturing keeps and destroying towns. I like to sit in the tavern and RP with my friends...or go on great adventures with them. Why do we have to focus on just ONE point? Why can't we have some of everything?
Played: Runescape, World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning
Ok guys, I am one f those players that only like PvP when it is meaningful (meaning no zerging) and with consequences.
If PvP can't be meaningful I prefer is not there.
Exemple of PvP I like is UO, EvE, Darkfall, Mortal Online.
But I do enjoy a good PvE game like EQ, EQ2 and SWG (until it lasted), Vanguard.
I tend to agree that in most games PvP ruins the RPG experience, but it I don't agree that PvP is killing MMORPGs.
Games like Vanguard, EQ2, SWG, LOTRO, are not PvP focused (although they have PvP), yet they haven't got huge following.
Reasons are different for each game, but the big problem is that no one has been able to recreate the sense of comunity and immersion of EQ or AC.
Of course the numbers weren't great, but at that time the MMORPG market was really tiny.
After WoW launched, SWG and EQ2 were watered down (EQ2 took time), and any other PvE game launched, except for Vanguard (which had 1 million other problems), failed to recreate the same magic of EQ and AC.
This is not PvP fault but WoW fault, although the real blame is on the developers who ditched creativity and originality for blandness, in the utopistic dream to reach WoW crowd.............