Not WAAAAHHH, WAAAAAAGHHH. All MMO's are just what you make of them. They are playgrounds for us to do with what we want with rules set in place. You people have forgotten how to make your own fun with what's available and you want your fun handed to you on a platter in a nice little template with a funbot holding your hand all the way through.
Take the system and make what you will of it. Stop talking about old games and go back and play them if they are so good. I still play the old games and guess what? They are still the same. All you need is 1 full server. Who cares if WoW has 10 million when there are only a few thousand on a server at a time to play with anyway? Either pick a game and make it fun for yourself or switch genres for a while.
Not WAAAAHHH, WAAAAAAGHHH. All MMO's are just what you make of them. They are playgrounds for us to do with what we want with rules set in place. You people have forgotten how to make your own fun with what's available and you want your fun handed to you on a platter in a nice little template with a funbot holding your hand all the way through. Take the system and make what you will of it. Stop talking about old games and go back and play them if they are so good. I still play the old games and guess what? They are still the same. All you need is 1 full server. Who cares if WoW has 10 million when there are only a few thousand on a server at a time to play with anyway? Either pick a game and make it fun for yourself or switch genres for a while.
Not WAAAAHHH, WAAAAAAGHHH. All MMO's are just what you make of them. They are playgrounds for us to do with what we want with rules set in place. You people have forgotten how to make your own fun with what's available and you want your fun handed to you on a platter in a nice little template with a funbot holding your hand all the way through. Take the system and make what you will of it. Stop talking about old games and go back and play them if they are so good. I still play the old games and guess what? They are still the same. All you need is 1 full server. Who cares if WoW has 10 million when there are only a few thousand on a server at a time to play with anyway? Either pick a game and make it fun for yourself or switch genres for a while.
Ranking of the best Wow PvP players ... on world, on continent, on battlegroup (clustered 12 servers), on server! With links to talents used and gear used through the in game Armoury of each player.
Ranking of the guilds you belong to and try to progress in competition with world, continent, server wise.
Our guild is still progressing and every time we down a new boss we climb on the ladder.
Gives a whole other feeling to these accomplishments. We do raiding now to view the last bosses and climb with our guild. I only raid once a week though ...
Guild pride it's called.
I hope the achievements system is also tracked this way btw. So, so far the Myth Wow is only played for personal greed and gear.
The other game I play is PotBS. All population on one EU server. Also a good game, but lacking in dimension.
Belonging to those infamous top ranked guilds is still adding something. Wasn't that you were searching for in "rvr pride" or "honor pride", but on a smaller scale I suppose.
Well, that was short and, mostly, sweet. I got 2 weeks out of WAR, about the same as AoC tbh, and now I'm done. I can't play a game that is this lonely. Boy, talk about destroy the soul of a MMORPG through system design choices. WAR has no community beyond introverted utility (as opposed to 'family') guilds that just exist to zerg the content in the most basic way. Noone talks, noone listens, noone co-operates. PQs are dead where ever I go, scenerios are mindless zerg fests where victory or defeat is random and nothing to do with skill, PvE is 100% solo quest grind. It's all so soulless. Open world PvP is broken on the PvP server I play on, with people just using scenerios to level to the max allowed and then sitting around and picking off players 10 levels below them that are trying to do their quests, while actually thinking that this is what quality PvP is. Frustrating and boring. Achievment rewards are pointless and dull. Itemisation and customisation are, frankly, rubbish. I feel no drive at all to develop my character, because I already know what she will look and handle like by looking at the (solo) guy running by me that is 2 levels higher. Pointless. Despite the core lore being good, the PvE quests are GPS led idiot drivel, leading you through safari parks of static mobs just wait for you to kill them. WAR imo isnt even really a MMORPG tbh... any more then TR is. It feels that everything that defines a MMORPG has been tacked as an afterthought onto the PvP core, which is fine if you are only looking for a solo zerg grind PvP game, but it makes it a terrible MMORPG. I would rather play Savage then this game, its honest about what it is, a fantasy PvP/ RTS game, and is way more fun. I guess it didnt have the hype machine of WAR though, so most won't even try it, which is a shame. WAR is such a merengue of a game... Light and sugary, which gives you a rush for a little while, but leaving you to crash when it wears off... I seriously wonder if this game has any longevity at all for the general public. All I know is that It hasnt for me. Btw people, change the skin on this game and it really isnt all that different from AoC, so I have no idea why you all hate one and love the other. They have far more similarities then differences if you take a better look. Both are a really sad indicator on the state of the genre to me.
Solo... meaning alone
Zerg.. meaning many
Grind.. meaning difficult and tedious
PvP... player vs player..
Somehow.. you can solo as a zerg while you grind and pvp at the same time. Yeah.. I don't know what the heck that means at all. AoC isn't an any way.. remotely similar to WAR. Different world design, different combat design, much better graphics, instanced and capped end-game PvP, large focus on PvE play, guild cities, ridiculous amounts of items and completely every man for himself on the PvP servers. No factions.
How is WAR similar to any of that? AoC had to make major patches, twice a week, for several months.. just to make the game playable for the majority of the players. And STILL couldn't manage to present a product as polished as WAR. I'm not a fanboi, I've played AoC, DAoC, WoW, UO, EQ1, TR, LoTR.. I know a good MMO when I see it. There were major fundamental and design flaws in AoC. AoC was on par with Vanguard or Dark and Light. WAR's launch has been a lot better than even WoW's launch.
Not liking the game is one thing, but making baseless and factless claims just because something isn't for you is rather immature. WAR, is a pretty solid game thus far. That's it. It's a PvP game. It is meant to be unforgiving in some aspects. I'm sorry if you have to have everything handed to you. If you have a problem with WAR's PvE, in any aspect.. then you must be horrified with WoW's. They are nearly identicle.. except one has a much shorter grind involved.
If everything is pointless and stupid.. why do you even play MMO's?
The casual gamer plays a game just for the sake of playing, wasting some time, and have the short fun. And that within 30min-1hour. Log out and log a few days later in, and do the same. They are not ready, and they dont want involvment in a community.. and how could you with 6 hours a week divided into 10 session?
MMORPGs nowadays are a lot more for those casual gamers.. everything is simple, everything is easy to get into, everything is automated.. a lot of options to make things simplier.
But the drawback is a lack of community, involving and thrilling and dramatic environment /world.
This development didnt started with WAR, not even with WoW.. those two games just got some steps forward in that direction.
It is also about torn apart communities and communications.
Look, at UO you talked to everyone around you, or everyone around you heard what you said to another player. No group chat, no trade chat, no nothing.. just world chat limited just in the locality depending if you had whispered, said or yelled. So when you logged in you were within the world and a part of the world and the community.. you could just listining the conversations of others or take part in it. And there were no levels, a newcomer could easily play and talk with a veteran player.. and they did it.
After that EQ introduced different chats and seperated withit the community. Now you got group chat, guild chat and area chats. So the community divided itself into different groups and guild.. nomore you could here the discussions of other groups nearby.. the world was a lot quiter. And the community were also seperated by levels. Not a lot of interaction between newcomers and veterans. One of the main problems of all level based mmorpgs.. if someone would ask me.
With WoW they have on top of that also introduced Instances, where a lot of ppl were seperated not just with the communication side from the world, even more with everything seperated. The world felt more empty and dead, and the community was more torn apart as ever before.
And now comes WAR into play.. they have all that from WoW(instances are now PvP instead of pve, but almost from lvl1 ongoing). But the player base is also devided intro realms, in each realms in 3 different factions, in each faction into 4 different tiers, with instances on top of that..
No need to talk about, that everything became a lot easier with one millions tutorials or informations how everything is to do.. no more the need to ask questions, or to involve yourself in anyway with the community or the world.
But however.. the point is, this trend will go on. Because the majority of gamers are casuals, and the subscriber numbers of wow have proven that.. and the numbers of WAR will prove it. Because WAR will be and is a success, despite of all those complaining on mmorpg.com in general. We mmorpg veterans of different periods are a minority.. and the community strong games are a niche.. not even talk about the virtual worlds or sandboxes, which are what a lot of those old old schoolers are dreaming of.
Nevertheless.. i really would wish for a more oldschool mmorpg, even if it is just a niche product. But the problem is really even worse. Because the oldschoold community is divided into theme park(EQ) vs. sandbox(UO), pvp vs. pve and one hundred million other things.. we oldschoolers are really picky, because we have seen a lot, and have played even more.
But however.. i play those new games, too. At the moment WAR, but i felt since years now. That those new games could be better, they could have more rpg, more community, more sandbox, more virtual world, more of a open world, more involving and meaningful pvp. But i have to live with what is available, and take it, as what it is... and just dream from time to time for a new, innovative, but oldschool kind of game.
PS: And the real casual dont post in forums or even read it. So noone, who are reading or commenting this is a real one.
I only joined WAR because of the open world PvP and now that is the least played thing in this game. Scenarios are over crowded and we have a whole new WoW.
They should buff xp gained and rewards in general from open world RvR.
This game at its current state doesnt offer anything special. They have a great idea and design on their hand but the execution is just poor.
Agree with the OP. I found this out during the BETA and was sorry I had pre-ordered it. I still picked it up for the first free month but did not continue playing past the first week.
Next step, Stargate Worlds. Please do not disappoint the same way WAR and AoC have done.
I consider myself a casual gamer and play MMO's from 5 to 8 hours per week and I do read the the MMORPG.com forums when I see an interesting discussion going on which doesn't turn into a flamefest ( this topic for example).
Now Warhammer is, for the moment at least, the most efficient game I play. What do I mean by that? I log for only 2 hours and play for 2 hours. They have minimized downtime. No more looking for groups, endless traveling (I made this comment earlier in this topic as well). In other games I might have logged for 2 hours but my gametime would have been 30mins tops considering all the time sinks. Unfortunately today I don't have the time I had when I was a student and could devote 8-10 hours of playtime in a game.
From a casual gamers perspective what is currently happening in WAR is very good. Granted, the community of this game should come together. The developer should help in this direction by providing elements both in game and out of it (more chat channels and official forums perhaps). But then again providing those elements might become a boomerang (devil's advocate here). Nevertheless, the fact that the basic principle of WAR is supporting casual gamers by minimizing downtime is a very strong point in my book.
At the same time I really wish the game companies would evolve the genre beyond games like WoW, War or EQ providing more sandbox games. I'm certain there is a segment of the market out there waiting for a game like this which the consumer base would surely support.
Agree with the OP. I found this out during the BETA and was sorry I had pre-ordered it. I still picked it up for the first free month but did not continue playing past the first week. Next step, Stargate Worlds. Please do not disappoint the same way WAR and AoC have done.
WAR is one of the best mmo today. if u can point better, please do us this favor. otherwise, maybe u just need to take a break from playing mmo for about 6 months (you are apparently too bored)
So.. the OP gave us paragraphs of information as to why he feels the way he does...
Well I tend to agree that the game is currently 'soulless' due to the instanced scenarios, personally I think all instancing should be 100% eliminated and this would be the only thing that could save this game in the long run, in the short run people will put up with it, I saw a youtube video of the lead guy on the game project and he said he feels no grind when he plays, no grind at all? well apparently he hasn't been in 1,000 instanced scenarios because the grind easily can be felt after the 5th time you play the same scenario, and why do players play the instanced scenarios instead of playing in the open world? because the instanced scenarios give you easily 10x if not 50x faster XP, and everyone is rushing to get to lvl 40, because everyone wants to see what the game is like at lvl 40 asap, because everyone wants to know if they are willing to invest their time and money into this game, and one can't fully know tthis unless they see the game from a lvl 40 point of view, or everyone is testing out their ideal character and class, which is time consuming and time is money, specifically 14.99 a month. I want so see people walking around not forest after forest void of human players, you can easily walk around for 3 hours and not see a single player, I play Ostermark, maybe a big problem is they over-shot the number of servers along with the biggest problem of too much XP per instanced scenario, since they will never removed the instancing as it would drastically change the game, they should simply put a cap on the instancing of scenarios to 500-xp and 50-renowned, sounds harsh? well that is pretty much the only way they'll force people to do the open outside non-instanced quests and turn this online single player game back into an MMORPG.
Typical oldschool vs. new casual gamer debatte. The casual gamer plays a game just for the sake of playing, wasting some time, and have the short fun. And that within 30min-1hour. Log out and log a few days later in, and do the same. They are not ready, and they dont want involvment in a community.. and how could you with 6 hours a week divided into 10 session? MMORPGs nowadays are a lot more for those casual gamers.. everything is simple, everything is easy to get into, everything is automated.. a lot of options to make things simplier. But the drawback is a lack of community, involving and thrilling and dramatic environment /world. This development didnt started with WAR, not even with WoW.. those two games just got some steps forward in that direction. It is also about torn apart communities and communications. Look, at UO you talked to everyone around you, or everyone around you heard what you said to another player. No group chat, no trade chat, no nothing.. just world chat limited just in the locality depending if you had whispered, said or yelled. So when you logged in you were within the world and a part of the world and the community.. you could just listining the conversations of others or take part in it. And there were no levels, a newcomer could easily play and talk with a veteran player.. and they did it. After that EQ introduced different chats and seperated withit the community. Now you got group chat, guild chat and area chats. So the community divided itself into different groups and guild.. nomore you could here the discussions of other groups nearby.. the world was a lot quiter. And the community were also seperated by levels. Not a lot of interaction between newcomers and veterans. One of the main problems of all level based mmorpgs.. if someone would ask me. With WoW they have on top of that also introduced Instances, where a lot of ppl were seperated not just with the communication side from the world, even more with everything seperated. The world felt more empty and dead, and the community was more torn apart as ever before. And now comes WAR into play.. they have all that from WoW(instances are now PvP instead of pve, but almost from lvl1 ongoing). But the player base is also devided intro realms, in each realms in 3 different factions, in each faction into 4 different tiers, with instances on top of that.. No need to talk about, that everything became a lot easier with one millions tutorials or informations how everything is to do.. no more the need to ask questions, or to involve yourself in anyway with the community or the world. But however.. the point is, this trend will go on. Because the majority of gamers are casuals, and the subscriber numbers of wow have proven that.. and the numbers of WAR will prove it. Because WAR will be and is a success, despite of all those complaining on mmorpg.com in general. We mmorpg veterans of different periods are a minority.. and the community strong games are a niche.. not even talk about the virtual worlds or sandboxes, which are what a lot of those old old schoolers are dreaming of. Nevertheless.. i really would wish for a more oldschool mmorpg, even if it is just a niche product. But the problem is really even worse. Because the oldschoold community is divided into theme park(EQ) vs. sandbox(UO), pvp vs. pve and one hundred million other things.. we oldschoolers are really picky, because we have seen a lot, and have played even more. But however.. i play those new games, too. At the moment WAR, but i felt since years now. That those new games could be better, they could have more rpg, more community, more sandbox, more virtual world, more of a open world, more involving and meaningful pvp. But i have to live with what is available, and take it, as what it is... and just dream from time to time for a new, innovative, but oldschool kind of game.
PS: And the real casual dont post in forums or even read it. So noone, who are reading or commenting this is a real one.
i agree
for fun: just dl and log into atlantica online beta
altough the game itselve probably isnt for me the sheer number of people running around on my screen fighting and doing business really brought back old memories of the more crowded feelings of MMos
if your bored, visit my blog at: http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Well I tend to agree that the game is currently 'soulless' due to the instanced scenarios, personally I think all instancing should be 100% eliminated and this would be the only thing that could save this game in the long run, in the short run people will put up with it, I saw a youtube video of the lead guy on the game project and he said he feels no grind when he plays, no grind at all? well apparently he hasn't been in 1,000 instanced scenarios because the grind easily can be felt after the 5th time you play the same scenario, and why do players play the instanced scenarios instead of playing in the open world? because the instanced scenarios give you easily 10x if not 50x faster XP, and everyone is rushing to get to lvl 40, because everyone wants to see what the game is like at lvl 40 asap, because everyone wants to know if they are willing to invest their time and money into this game, and one can't fully know tthis unless they see the game from a lvl 40 point of view, or everyone is testing out their ideal character and class, which is time consuming and time is money, specifically 14.99 a month. I want so see people walking around not forest after forest void of human players, you can easily walk around for 3 hours and not see a single player, I play Ostermark, maybe a big problem is they over-shot the number of servers along with the biggest problem of too much XP per instanced scenario, since they will never removed the instancing as it would drastically change the game, they should simply put a cap on the instancing of scenarios to 500-xp and 50-renowned, sounds harsh? well that is pretty much the only way they'll force people to do the open outside non-instanced quests and turn this online single player game back into an MMORPG.
i agree with you that people have that kind of mentality but the fact that most do this shows what a sad state the genre is in.
rather then enjoying the content to lvl 40 (and war offers a lot more then szenarios in that regard) people race to endgame. when i saw the 1st podcasts about the tier system way back i tought : "hey, finally a game without leveling rush"
you can easily enjoy the game having fun in pq and open rvr in every tier yet (and i dont exclude myselve from this) most hardcore gamers feel as if every game on the market should be a challenge to pass it fast.
thats like a competition on who can watch the newst movie the fastest using fast forwared and hardly understanding the story let alone nuances just to tell their friends "yeah i saw it, the end is quite funny".
and often enough in mmos the end isnt as funny as people think...
i think the only way to prevent this from a developer point of view would be to have npcs in the endgame that ask the player "oh, and who are you ? we never saw you do anything for us" or "hmm, and you actually never fought a troll ? what kind of hero are you"
at level 40 you might be the champion of defending the brimstone bauble but actually i think there should be mechanisms in game that would encourage a wider exploration of game content. one such thing could be the teaching of new skills based on quest, rvr and exploration (i.e. as a suprise reward) rather then basing them on xp gain alone.
if your bored, visit my blog at: http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Now that may sound strange to you, but maybe a lot of people dont know what "AoE Grinding" is? I guess a lot of people played WoW and made their high level char with solo quest and never did a nice AOE group with 1) tank 2) healer 3) damage dealer 4)debuffer. and its difficult for some people to admit if they dont know something, they would have to admit it. and maybe they just dont answer then
COULD be a reason...
Sorry, but your reasoning is rubbish. Nothing is stopping them from giving me a simple no for an answer.. Also, they could simply ask what AoE means. Nope nope. They'd rather just continue being mindless drones.
Didn't read thro the thread, but i have to AGREE with the OP.
I've got to r15 with my chosen, and while i was having fun to start, now i'm starting to tire of scenarios, which i have been mostly doing to level as i'm finding the pve lacking.
RvR i haven't had the chance to try, not from want of trying Maybe i'm just unlucky but evertime i head off to do some RVR, theres either no one there or its a gankfest.!
The PQ's are ok, but become stale very quick. TBH i bough this game for the RvR, maybe i will see more of that when i reach tier 3/4. Thats if i reach that tier before my first free month's trial expires. I'm in two minds to making a subscribtion (leaning towards no atm)
One second there Apraxis, I consider myself a casual gamer and play MMO's from 5 to 8 hours per week and I do read the the MMORPG.com forums when I see an interesting discussion going on which doesn't turn into a flamefest ( this topic for example). Now Warhammer is, for the moment at least, the most efficient game I play. What do I mean by that? I log for only 2 hours and play for 2 hours. They have minimized downtime. No more looking for groups, endless traveling (I made this comment earlier in this topic as well). In other games I might have logged for 2 hours but my gametime would have been 30mins tops considering all the time sinks. Unfortunately today I don't have the time I had when I was a student and could devote 8-10 hours of playtime in a game. From a casual gamers perspective what is currently happening in WAR is very good. Granted, the community of this game should come together. The developer should help in this direction by providing elements both in game and out of it (more chat channels and official forums perhaps). But then again providing those elements might become a boomerang (devil's advocate here). Nevertheless, the fact that the basic principle of WAR is supporting casual gamers by minimizing downtime is a very strong point in my book. At the same time I really wish the game companies would evolve the genre beyond games like WoW, War or EQ providing more sandbox games. I'm certain there is a segment of the market out there waiting for a game like this which the consumer base would surely support.
Ok, granted, you are maybe one of the very few casuals reading and posting at mmorpg.com or any forum.
And for the record.. it is not your fault, that we the old schoolers(or a lot of) are not happy with the trend of the mmorpgs genre, as much as it is not the fault for the finance oriented companies. The companies do, what is their purpose, making money.. and the make the most money with games for the majority.. and the majority nowadays are gamers like you. And it is absolutely ok, that casuals like you have games for their necessities. Well.. from time to time even i nowadays tend to be more of casual(at least i am now 32 years old.. and time becomes rare occasionally)
But with 32 years, and 25 years of gaming i think sometimes back, as game designers were gamers and just wanted to make their dream game(and money was not so much of a interest). Where their were games, which were very demanding and challenging(like solo rpgs with over 150 hours of playtimes, anyone see something like that recently?) and really hard to play through, when even possible(like chaos strike back), were innovation and fun was the key for new developments(when i think about games like lemmings, black&white, Z and to much to name all here), then i miss those old times, and those game developers.. because there are just a few out there nowadays, and it is a lot harder for them to compete with the tremendous amount of money from the big companies(graphical packaging, advertisement and withit hype, and what not)
However.. as i said before, the time goes on, and we have to live withit, and accept those changes.
Didn't read thro the thread, but i have to AGREE with the OP. I've got to r15 with my chosen, and while i was having fun to start, now i'm starting to tire of scenarios, which i have been mostly doing to level as i'm finding the pve lacking. RvR i haven't had the chance to try, not from want of trying Maybe i'm just unlucky but evertime i head off to do some RVR, theres either no one there or its a gankfest.! The PQ's are ok, but become stale very quick. TBH i bough this game for the RvR, maybe i will see more of that when i reach tier 3/4. Thats if i reach that tier before my first free month's trial expires. I'm in two minds to making a subscribtion (leaning towards no atm)
Join an open group, but get into RvR. It's what the game is all about IMO. If you haven't started RvR and you're thinking that you've experienced all there is you're missing the entire point of the game.
Scenarios and low population are killing this game. It's like mythic are trying to prevent people from actually enjoying the game, increase the rewards for attacking/defending keeps and increase the stupidly low realm population and this would be one of the best game on the market. As it it is it's just a glorified version of CS.
From a casual gamers perspective what is currently happening in WAR is very good. Granted, the community of this game should come together. The developer should help in this direction by providing elements both in game and out of it (more chat channels and official forums perhaps). But then again providing those elements might become a boomerang (devil's advocate here). Nevertheless, the fact that the basic principle of WAR is supporting casual gamers by minimizing downtime is a very strong point in my book. At the same time I really wish the game companies would evolve the genre beyond games like WoW, War or EQ providing more sandbox games. I'm certain there is a segment of the market out there waiting for a game like this which the consumer base would surely support.
I agree with so much of what you said in this quote and even the part I snipped out.
One of the bigger problems that I have seen in Warhammer is that is almost seems Mythic went out of their way to make it either impossible or cumbersome at best to try to communicate with other people in the game or out of game. This comes off as very strange to me seeing just how much emphasis Mythic has put on "this is a team game" mantra they toss out in every interview.
From the lack of forums, chat channels, open group, useless tradeskills, no decent LFG tool, lack of any reliable realm battle information, etc etc. The game seems to be suffocating from a lack of information exchange. Be it out of game or in game, people just are not talking.
Honestly the only people I see talking are the gold spammers and they are driving me nuts.
if id had still been playing tier 1,I would have called the OP a troll.
unfortunately,hes totally right. the game is just dead,not because no one plays,but because scenarios are the thing to do. this becomes very apparent once you hit tier 2 and 3.
its such a shame as this game had the potential to be amazing,but mythic have totally dropped the ball with horrible chat and scenario grinds.
world pvp has practically zero focus as everyone is afk in warcamps,scenario queing.
the real question is how many people will still be playing after their first month? and then a month later lich king hits,what happens then?
Im also utterly amazed that there are actually people saying "this isnt a pvp game!!1" and "go back to daoc!!". are people really that dumb?
Three things need to be done ASP, imo. 1) Nerf XP in scenarios by 50% or just do away with them entirely. 2) Increase XP in RvR lake areas. 3) Give Open RvR servers a real rule set.
Mythic claimed they learned from the mistakes they made in DAoC. I don't see it. I love this game, but those 3 issues are going to bring it down.
I totally agree with point two. (three I really don't care about as I don't play on an open ruleset). But nerfing the exp by 50% might be a bit much, perhaps more around the 25-30% range. If the exp in the lakes was increased with scenarios decreased it would get everyone out of the bloody scenarios and into some real RvR.
It's a Jeep thing. . . _______ |___| \_______/ = |||||| = |X| \*........*/ |X| |X|_________|X| You wouldn't understand
However I think the solution is to simply not buy and subscribe to these game, do not compromise!
Even if the people wanting oldschool mmo's is only 10% of the mmo population then thats 10% less money for devs not making games for us.
Giving them your money is just feeding the machine thats pumping out shit.
That and make our voices heard loud and clear on forums like this so on the off chance that game company exec's take a look at them they realise that there is a unfilled gap in the market that they could be profiting from.
Overall I don't think the game will die but I don't think it will be a big hit either, after the newness wears off I think it'll turn into one of those niched games that doesn't have a big player base but has a small number loyal players.
One second there Apraxis, I consider myself a casual gamer and play MMO's from 5 to 8 hours per week and I do read the the MMORPG.com forums when I see an interesting discussion going on which doesn't turn into a flamefest ( this topic for example). Now Warhammer is, for the moment at least, the most efficient game I play. What do I mean by that? I log for only 2 hours and play for 2 hours. They have minimized downtime. No more looking for groups, endless traveling (I made this comment earlier in this topic as well). In other games I might have logged for 2 hours but my gametime would have been 30mins tops considering all the time sinks. Unfortunately today I don't have the time I had when I was a student and could devote 8-10 hours of playtime in a game. From a casual gamers perspective what is currently happening in WAR is very good. Granted, the community of this game should come together. The developer should help in this direction by providing elements both in game and out of it (more chat channels and official forums perhaps). But then again providing those elements might become a boomerang (devil's advocate here). Nevertheless, the fact that the basic principle of WAR is supporting casual gamers by minimizing downtime is a very strong point in my book. At the same time I really wish the game companies would evolve the genre beyond games like WoW, War or EQ providing more sandbox games. I'm certain there is a segment of the market out there waiting for a game like this which the consumer base would surely support.
Ok, granted, you are maybe one of the very few casuals reading and posting at mmorpg.com or any forum.
And for the record.. it is not your fault, that we the old schoolers(or a lot of) are not happy with the trend of the mmorpgs genre, as much as it is not the fault for the finance oriented companies. The companies do, what is their purpose, making money.. and the make the most money with games for the majority.. and the majority nowadays are gamers like you. And it is absolutely ok, that casuals like you have games for their necessities. Well.. from time to time even i nowadays tend to be more of casual(at least i am now 32 years old.. and time becomes rare occasionally)
But with 32 years, and 25 years of gaming i think sometimes back, as game designers were gamers and just wanted to make their dream game(and money was not so much of a interest). Where their were games, which were very demanding and challenging(like solo rpgs with over 150 hours of playtimes, anyone see something like that recently?) and really hard to play through, when even possible(like chaos strike back), were innovation and fun was the key for new developments(when i think about games like lemmings, black&white, Z and to much to name all here), then i miss those old times, and those game developers.. because there are just a few out there nowadays, and it is a lot harder for them to compete with the tremendous amount of money from the big companies(graphical packaging, advertisement and withit hype, and what not)
However.. as i said before, the time goes on, and we have to live withit, and accept those changes.
The big problem in innovation, is that it often results in a business failure, or something far from success.
A Tale in the Desert?
Saga of Ryzom?
Auto Assault?
Neocron?
Pirates of the Burning Sea?
Tabula Rasa?
Face of Mankind?
All of those have deviated, in some way or another, away from the current traditional style of MMORPG's, and each one has performed poorly. But they were all rubbish I hear you cry. Maybe they were rubbish because of their deviation?
How many of those, and others like them, have you tried? ( you the reader ). It's no wonder developers, or investors, shy away and leave us with the tried and tested model.
Comments
Not WAAAAHHH, WAAAAAAGHHH. All MMO's are just what you make of them. They are playgrounds for us to do with what we want with rules set in place. You people have forgotten how to make your own fun with what's available and you want your fun handed to you on a platter in a nice little template with a funbot holding your hand all the way through.
Take the system and make what you will of it. Stop talking about old games and go back and play them if they are so good. I still play the old games and guess what? They are still the same. All you need is 1 full server. Who cares if WoW has 10 million when there are only a few thousand on a server at a time to play with anyway? Either pick a game and make it fun for yourself or switch genres for a while.
AMEN BROTHER! well said.
... Because of this:
http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/player
Ranking of the best Wow PvP players ... on world, on continent, on battlegroup (clustered 12 servers), on server! With links to talents used and gear used through the in game Armoury of each player.
or this:
http://www.wowjutsu.com/eu/alakir/
Ranking of the guilds you belong to and try to progress in competition with world, continent, server wise.
Our guild is still progressing and every time we down a new boss we climb on the ladder.
Gives a whole other feeling to these accomplishments. We do raiding now to view the last bosses and climb with our guild. I only raid once a week though ...
Guild pride it's called.
I hope the achievements system is also tracked this way btw. So, so far the Myth Wow is only played for personal greed and gear.
The other game I play is PotBS. All population on one EU server. Also a good game, but lacking in dimension.
Belonging to those infamous top ranked guilds is still adding something. Wasn't that you were searching for in "rvr pride" or "honor pride", but on a smaller scale I suppose.
Solo... meaning alone
Zerg.. meaning many
Grind.. meaning difficult and tedious
PvP... player vs player..
Somehow.. you can solo as a zerg while you grind and pvp at the same time. Yeah.. I don't know what the heck that means at all. AoC isn't an any way.. remotely similar to WAR. Different world design, different combat design, much better graphics, instanced and capped end-game PvP, large focus on PvE play, guild cities, ridiculous amounts of items and completely every man for himself on the PvP servers. No factions.
How is WAR similar to any of that? AoC had to make major patches, twice a week, for several months.. just to make the game playable for the majority of the players. And STILL couldn't manage to present a product as polished as WAR. I'm not a fanboi, I've played AoC, DAoC, WoW, UO, EQ1, TR, LoTR.. I know a good MMO when I see it. There were major fundamental and design flaws in AoC. AoC was on par with Vanguard or Dark and Light. WAR's launch has been a lot better than even WoW's launch.
Not liking the game is one thing, but making baseless and factless claims just because something isn't for you is rather immature. WAR, is a pretty solid game thus far. That's it. It's a PvP game. It is meant to be unforgiving in some aspects. I'm sorry if you have to have everything handed to you. If you have a problem with WAR's PvE, in any aspect.. then you must be horrified with WoW's. They are nearly identicle.. except one has a much shorter grind involved.
If everything is pointless and stupid.. why do you even play MMO's?
Typical oldschool vs. new casual gamer debatte.
The casual gamer plays a game just for the sake of playing, wasting some time, and have the short fun. And that within 30min-1hour. Log out and log a few days later in, and do the same. They are not ready, and they dont want involvment in a community.. and how could you with 6 hours a week divided into 10 session?
MMORPGs nowadays are a lot more for those casual gamers.. everything is simple, everything is easy to get into, everything is automated.. a lot of options to make things simplier.
But the drawback is a lack of community, involving and thrilling and dramatic environment /world.
This development didnt started with WAR, not even with WoW.. those two games just got some steps forward in that direction.
It is also about torn apart communities and communications.
Look, at UO you talked to everyone around you, or everyone around you heard what you said to another player. No group chat, no trade chat, no nothing.. just world chat limited just in the locality depending if you had whispered, said or yelled. So when you logged in you were within the world and a part of the world and the community.. you could just listining the conversations of others or take part in it. And there were no levels, a newcomer could easily play and talk with a veteran player.. and they did it.
After that EQ introduced different chats and seperated withit the community. Now you got group chat, guild chat and area chats. So the community divided itself into different groups and guild.. nomore you could here the discussions of other groups nearby.. the world was a lot quiter. And the community were also seperated by levels. Not a lot of interaction between newcomers and veterans. One of the main problems of all level based mmorpgs.. if someone would ask me.
With WoW they have on top of that also introduced Instances, where a lot of ppl were seperated not just with the communication side from the world, even more with everything seperated. The world felt more empty and dead, and the community was more torn apart as ever before.
And now comes WAR into play.. they have all that from WoW(instances are now PvP instead of pve, but almost from lvl1 ongoing). But the player base is also devided intro realms, in each realms in 3 different factions, in each faction into 4 different tiers, with instances on top of that..
No need to talk about, that everything became a lot easier with one millions tutorials or informations how everything is to do.. no more the need to ask questions, or to involve yourself in anyway with the community or the world.
But however.. the point is, this trend will go on. Because the majority of gamers are casuals, and the subscriber numbers of wow have proven that.. and the numbers of WAR will prove it. Because WAR will be and is a success, despite of all those complaining on mmorpg.com in general. We mmorpg veterans of different periods are a minority.. and the community strong games are a niche.. not even talk about the virtual worlds or sandboxes, which are what a lot of those old old schoolers are dreaming of.
Nevertheless.. i really would wish for a more oldschool mmorpg, even if it is just a niche product. But the problem is really even worse. Because the oldschoold community is divided into theme park(EQ) vs. sandbox(UO), pvp vs. pve and one hundred million other things.. we oldschoolers are really picky, because we have seen a lot, and have played even more.
But however.. i play those new games, too. At the moment WAR, but i felt since years now. That those new games could be better, they could have more rpg, more community, more sandbox, more virtual world, more of a open world, more involving and meaningful pvp. But i have to live with what is available, and take it, as what it is... and just dream from time to time for a new, innovative, but oldschool kind of game.
PS: And the real casual dont post in forums or even read it. So noone, who are reading or commenting this is a real one.
I only joined WAR because of the open world PvP and now that is the least played thing in this game. Scenarios are over crowded and we have a whole new WoW.
They should buff xp gained and rewards in general from open world RvR.
This game at its current state doesnt offer anything special. They have a great idea and design on their hand but the execution is just poor.
Agree with the OP. I found this out during the BETA and was sorry I had pre-ordered it. I still picked it up for the first free month but did not continue playing past the first week.
Next step, Stargate Worlds. Please do not disappoint the same way WAR and AoC have done.
One second there Apraxis,
I consider myself a casual gamer and play MMO's from 5 to 8 hours per week and I do read the the MMORPG.com forums when I see an interesting discussion going on which doesn't turn into a flamefest ( this topic for example).
Now Warhammer is, for the moment at least, the most efficient game I play. What do I mean by that? I log for only 2 hours and play for 2 hours. They have minimized downtime. No more looking for groups, endless traveling (I made this comment earlier in this topic as well). In other games I might have logged for 2 hours but my gametime would have been 30mins tops considering all the time sinks. Unfortunately today I don't have the time I had when I was a student and could devote 8-10 hours of playtime in a game.
From a casual gamers perspective what is currently happening in WAR is very good. Granted, the community of this game should come together. The developer should help in this direction by providing elements both in game and out of it (more chat channels and official forums perhaps). But then again providing those elements might become a boomerang (devil's advocate here). Nevertheless, the fact that the basic principle of WAR is supporting casual gamers by minimizing downtime is a very strong point in my book.
At the same time I really wish the game companies would evolve the genre beyond games like WoW, War or EQ providing more sandbox games. I'm certain there is a segment of the market out there waiting for a game like this which the consumer base would surely support.
Don't worry it will.
So.. the OP gave us paragraphs of information as to why he feels the way he does...
You offer NOTHING.
Well I tend to agree that the game is currently 'soulless' due to the instanced scenarios, personally I think all instancing should be 100% eliminated and this would be the only thing that could save this game in the long run, in the short run people will put up with it, I saw a youtube video of the lead guy on the game project and he said he feels no grind when he plays, no grind at all? well apparently he hasn't been in 1,000 instanced scenarios because the grind easily can be felt after the 5th time you play the same scenario, and why do players play the instanced scenarios instead of playing in the open world? because the instanced scenarios give you easily 10x if not 50x faster XP, and everyone is rushing to get to lvl 40, because everyone wants to see what the game is like at lvl 40 asap, because everyone wants to know if they are willing to invest their time and money into this game, and one can't fully know tthis unless they see the game from a lvl 40 point of view, or everyone is testing out their ideal character and class, which is time consuming and time is money, specifically 14.99 a month. I want so see people walking around not forest after forest void of human players, you can easily walk around for 3 hours and not see a single player, I play Ostermark, maybe a big problem is they over-shot the number of servers along with the biggest problem of too much XP per instanced scenario, since they will never removed the instancing as it would drastically change the game, they should simply put a cap on the instancing of scenarios to 500-xp and 50-renowned, sounds harsh? well that is pretty much the only way they'll force people to do the open outside non-instanced quests and turn this online single player game back into an MMORPG.
--- Razimus
i agree
for fun: just dl and log into atlantica online beta
altough the game itselve probably isnt for me the sheer number of people running around on my screen fighting and doing business really brought back old memories of the more crowded feelings of MMos
if your bored, visit my blog at:
http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
i agree with you that people have that kind of mentality but the fact that most do this shows what a sad state the genre is in.
rather then enjoying the content to lvl 40 (and war offers a lot more then szenarios in that regard) people race to endgame. when i saw the 1st podcasts about the tier system way back i tought : "hey, finally a game without leveling rush"
you can easily enjoy the game having fun in pq and open rvr in every tier yet (and i dont exclude myselve from this) most hardcore gamers feel as if every game on the market should be a challenge to pass it fast.
thats like a competition on who can watch the newst movie the fastest using fast forwared and hardly understanding the story let alone nuances just to tell their friends "yeah i saw it, the end is quite funny".
and often enough in mmos the end isnt as funny as people think...
i think the only way to prevent this from a developer point of view would be to have npcs in the endgame that ask the player "oh, and who are you ? we never saw you do anything for us" or "hmm, and you actually never fought a troll ? what kind of hero are you"
at level 40 you might be the champion of defending the brimstone bauble but actually i think there should be mechanisms in game that would encourage a wider exploration of game content. one such thing could be the teaching of new skills based on quest, rvr and exploration (i.e. as a suprise reward) rather then basing them on xp gain alone.
if your bored, visit my blog at:
http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Sorry, but your reasoning is rubbish. Nothing is stopping them from giving me a simple no for an answer.. Also, they could simply ask what AoE means. Nope nope. They'd rather just continue being mindless drones.
Didn't read thro the thread, but i have to AGREE with the OP.
I've got to r15 with my chosen, and while i was having fun to start, now i'm starting to tire of scenarios, which i have been mostly doing to level as i'm finding the pve lacking.
RvR i haven't had the chance to try, not from want of trying
Maybe i'm just unlucky but evertime i head off to do some RVR, theres either no one there or its a gankfest.!
The PQ's are ok, but become stale very quick. TBH i bough this game for the RvR, maybe i will see more of that when i reach tier 3/4. Thats if i reach that tier before my first free month's trial expires. I'm in two minds to making a subscribtion (leaning towards no atm)
Ok, granted, you are maybe one of the very few casuals reading and posting at mmorpg.com or any forum.
And for the record.. it is not your fault, that we the old schoolers(or a lot of) are not happy with the trend of the mmorpgs genre, as much as it is not the fault for the finance oriented companies. The companies do, what is their purpose, making money.. and the make the most money with games for the majority.. and the majority nowadays are gamers like you. And it is absolutely ok, that casuals like you have games for their necessities. Well.. from time to time even i nowadays tend to be more of casual(at least i am now 32 years old.. and time becomes rare occasionally)
But with 32 years, and 25 years of gaming i think sometimes back, as game designers were gamers and just wanted to make their dream game(and money was not so much of a interest). Where their were games, which were very demanding and challenging(like solo rpgs with over 150 hours of playtimes, anyone see something like that recently?) and really hard to play through, when even possible(like chaos strike back), were innovation and fun was the key for new developments(when i think about games like lemmings, black&white, Z and to much to name all here), then i miss those old times, and those game developers.. because there are just a few out there nowadays, and it is a lot harder for them to compete with the tremendous amount of money from the big companies(graphical packaging, advertisement and withit hype, and what not)
However.. as i said before, the time goes on, and we have to live withit, and accept those changes.
Join an open group, but get into RvR. It's what the game is all about IMO. If you haven't started RvR and you're thinking that you've experienced all there is you're missing the entire point of the game.
OP is spot on.
Scenarios and low population are killing this game. It's like mythic are trying to prevent people from actually enjoying the game, increase the rewards for attacking/defending keeps and increase the stupidly low realm population and this would be one of the best game on the market. As it it is it's just a glorified version of CS.
I agree with so much of what you said in this quote and even the part I snipped out.
One of the bigger problems that I have seen in Warhammer is that is almost seems Mythic went out of their way to make it either impossible or cumbersome at best to try to communicate with other people in the game or out of game. This comes off as very strange to me seeing just how much emphasis Mythic has put on "this is a team game" mantra they toss out in every interview.
From the lack of forums, chat channels, open group, useless tradeskills, no decent LFG tool, lack of any reliable realm battle information, etc etc. The game seems to be suffocating from a lack of information exchange. Be it out of game or in game, people just are not talking.
Honestly the only people I see talking are the gold spammers and they are driving me nuts.
Three things need to be done ASP, imo.
1) Nerf XP in scenarios by 50% or just do away with them entirely.
2) Increase XP in RvR lake areas.
3) Give Open RvR servers a real rule set.
Mythic claimed they learned from the mistakes they made in DAoC. I don't see it. I love this game, but those 3 issues are going to bring it down.
if id had still been playing tier 1,I would have called the OP a troll.
unfortunately,hes totally right. the game is just dead,not because no one plays,but because scenarios are the thing to do. this becomes very apparent once you hit tier 2 and 3.
its such a shame as this game had the potential to be amazing,but mythic have totally dropped the ball with horrible chat and scenario grinds.
world pvp has practically zero focus as everyone is afk in warcamps,scenario queing.
the real question is how many people will still be playing after their first month? and then a month later lich king hits,what happens then?
Im also utterly amazed that there are actually people saying "this isnt a pvp game!!1" and "go back to daoc!!". are people really that dumb?
I totally agree with point two. (three I really don't care about as I don't play on an open ruleset). But nerfing the exp by 50% might be a bit much, perhaps more around the 25-30% range. If the exp in the lakes was increased with scenarios decreased it would get everyone out of the bloody scenarios and into some real RvR.
_______
|___
\_______/
=
|X| \*........*/ |X|
|X|_________|X|
You wouldn't understand
Apraxis,
I agree with what you said on the last page.
However I think the solution is to simply not buy and subscribe to these game, do not compromise!
Even if the people wanting oldschool mmo's is only 10% of the mmo population then thats 10% less money for devs not making games for us.
Giving them your money is just feeding the machine thats pumping out shit.
That and make our voices heard loud and clear on forums like this so on the off chance that game company exec's take a look at them they realise that there is a unfilled gap in the market that they could be profiting from.
Overall I don't think the game will die but I don't think it will be a big hit either, after the newness wears off I think it'll turn into one of those niched games that doesn't have a big player base but has a small number loyal players.
Ok, granted, you are maybe one of the very few casuals reading and posting at mmorpg.com or any forum.
And for the record.. it is not your fault, that we the old schoolers(or a lot of) are not happy with the trend of the mmorpgs genre, as much as it is not the fault for the finance oriented companies. The companies do, what is their purpose, making money.. and the make the most money with games for the majority.. and the majority nowadays are gamers like you. And it is absolutely ok, that casuals like you have games for their necessities. Well.. from time to time even i nowadays tend to be more of casual(at least i am now 32 years old.. and time becomes rare occasionally)
But with 32 years, and 25 years of gaming i think sometimes back, as game designers were gamers and just wanted to make their dream game(and money was not so much of a interest). Where their were games, which were very demanding and challenging(like solo rpgs with over 150 hours of playtimes, anyone see something like that recently?) and really hard to play through, when even possible(like chaos strike back), were innovation and fun was the key for new developments(when i think about games like lemmings, black&white, Z and to much to name all here), then i miss those old times, and those game developers.. because there are just a few out there nowadays, and it is a lot harder for them to compete with the tremendous amount of money from the big companies(graphical packaging, advertisement and withit hype, and what not)
However.. as i said before, the time goes on, and we have to live withit, and accept those changes.
The big problem in innovation, is that it often results in a business failure, or something far from success.
A Tale in the Desert?
Saga of Ryzom?
Auto Assault?
Neocron?
Pirates of the Burning Sea?
Tabula Rasa?
Face of Mankind?
All of those have deviated, in some way or another, away from the current traditional style of MMORPG's, and each one has performed poorly. But they were all rubbish I hear you cry. Maybe they were rubbish because of their deviation?
How many of those, and others like them, have you tried? ( you the reader ). It's no wonder developers, or investors, shy away and leave us with the tried and tested model.