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Classes & Expertise needs a revamp....
PapaLazarou
Member Posts: 502
So I've been playing the game now for a few weeks and have gotten a feel of each class and the problem I find is that expertise is tooo restrictive and makes classes boring to play. What I loved about the old game is being able to pick lots of skills from all over the place if you wanted to. While we'll never get that back I would like them to expand on the expertise.
Trader.
So I think what should happen to trader is they merge all 4 types you have to choose before the game which are..
Domestic Goods
Structures
Munitions
Engineering
Once in the game then you have the four expertise tree's to go down and choose what you want to do but I also think they should take away the merchant skills every Trader has and add that in to a fifth tree as Merchant.
Jedi.
Now playing Jedi is soooooooo boring where you can choose Light which is just a tank with no attack power what so ever and then Dark which has the powers. However the problem here is it felt too restrictive and all I found was each one basically has one skill....... Light has a block and Dark has lightning. I just found it soooo boring.
So I suggest giving Jedi 5 expertise tree's which are the ones we used to have....
Defense
Powers
Healing
Lightsaber
Enhancement
This would bring sooo much more diversity to the class and make it more fun so you can have more skills in combat and diversity. The great thing is the restrictions to the expertise points would mean you can't be overpowered. I just think the whole Dark and Light paths don't work because a Jedi isn't dark just because he knows certain things it's his actions that makes him Dark or Light and think you're path to what you want to be should be decided somewhere else.
Bounty Hunter
Medic
Entertainer
These classes are all fine where they could have more options in their expertise but their roles are defined. The Bounty Hunter should be collecting bounties off players and PVE. The Medic should be giving healing in and out of combat and be buffing too however I do think the buffs need a revmp. Entertainer is basically what it was before.
I just think these classes just need their expertise opened up abit so they have to choose a more direct path instead of being masters of all. Like Bounty Hunter should have to choose between using pistols and carbines and rifles.
Beast Master
Now Beast Master I think should be made into it's own class because I feel that the current expertise favours some classes more than others and becomes pretty unfair there. Also to become effective in Beast Master you really need to basically gimp your current class and become a Beast Master who has a another classes name for it's title which is dumb.
So I think they need to mix Beast master with Bio Eng, Scout and Ranger expertise into it's own class.
Spy
Smuggler
Commando
Officer
Now these are classes that are unpopular currently in the game, apart from commando. I really think they are lacking a defined roll in the game and arn't funt o play so thats why people are picking them. I had a hard time deciding what to do with them.........
I first thought mix Officer and Commando together because in the movie the commandos had officers who were in charge of other commandos. So that made me think they should put Officer in the commando expertise to make that class more diverse and make it so you have to pick a path.
Then I came to the problem of Spy and Smuggler which I thought you could mix together because looking at their current expertise they seemed similar and would go quite well together. I think smugglers would make great spies anyways and it would make sense to have a smuggler ability to go invisible to be able to smuggle.
Brawler
This is a new class idea because it's just waiting there currently and is in the game but is pretty lackluster right now seeing as every class can pick up a melee weapon but not really specalise in it. So seeing as it's waiting to be turned into a class and the potential expertise are sitting right there I think it would be a easy one to put into the game.
Expertise
Teras Kasi Artist
Pikeman
Fencer
Swordsman
I'm sure everyone would want this as a new class along with Beast Master.
I would like to finally add that I think that they should add class trainers into the game like WOW which would let you change round your expertise, instead of having one person for every class. I also think that they should allow you to change your class in the game at any time you want, however you lose all your XP and have to grind it up again as a penalty.
So to sum up.
- Beast master to be made into it's own class
- Brawler to be made into a new class
- Jedi to be given more diversity
- Each Trader class to be merged into one and split up into expertise with merchat added
- More expertise tree's for more diversity for each class.
- Class trainers for each class to be able to change expertise around and so that you can drop your class at any time and start a new one in the game without having to make a new character.
- Spy, Smuggler and Officer with lacking interest in the game that need to be merged into other classes or something. The best I could come up with is Spy skills merged into Smuggler expertise and Officer skills merged into Commando expertise.
I hope you like these ideas because I really think it is needed and would bring back diversity into the game and would be a better system than we have now and evern better than what Pre CU had.
Comments
I would like to add....
I'm not worried about class balance because I'm not a fan of balance myself and I think the problem Pre CU had was you could mix and match everything together which led to cookie cutter rolls. I feel that the problem the NGE has is a lack of diversity and I feel like this system I put forward keeps the NGE class rolls but makes them more diverse and more fun for choosing for what roll you want.
What is great here is each class would be sooo different you don't have to worry about balance because you pick what you want to play........
Medic = Heals and buffs
Bounty Hunter = Collects bounties and is a expert with pistols and carbines and rifles
Commando = Can command and uses heavy weapons
Jedi = Well everyone wants a lightsaber
Smuggler = would be the new sneaking smuggling class
Beast Master = Pet class
Brawler = Your melee class
Trader = your crafting class
Entertainer = your buff and social class
So each one would be sooo unique that unlike what we've had before you don't have to worry so much about balance because you play what you love to do.
What would make it sooo great aswel is the ability to switch classes with the same character and obviously like pre cu you would have to grind it all back up again but it's just a really nice feature instead of having to make new characters all the time.
So I feel merging some classes together and making new ones along with making a more diverse expertise system wouldn't help balance but really we don't have balance atm and the classes are lackign in customization and diversity.
So you're basically asking for the NGE 2.0. SOE should go for it...they have nothing to lose at this point.
It's a NGE 2.0 without pissing off the current players because it creates more diversity and customization and interests new players. The one thing I found with the current game is you pick a class and then theres only two good builds everyone uses which don't offer that many skills. This new system would cut the boring classes noone plays and merges them into a more fun class while adding a brawler class people want and making beast master a class because it being expertise is currently flawed.
I really feel this is what SWG needs and I personally feel it is a WAY better system than pre cu and cu had.
It's a NGE 2.0 without pissing off the current players because it creates more diversity and customization and interests new players. The one thing I found with the current game is you pick a class and then theres only two good builds everyone uses which don't offer that many skills. This new system would cut the boring classes noone plays and merges them into a more fun class while adding a brawler class people want and making beast master a class because it being expertise is currently flawed.
I really feel this is what SWG needs and I personally feel it is a WAY better system than pre cu and cu had.
Most of what you're asking for is exactly what NGE removed from the game. Also, we've seen with the Chapter 6 combat revamp that people who like the NGE style of game do get pissed off when the game is changed yet again to cater to the preference of veteran players like you and me.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with all (or most) of your ideas. I guess I just can't help thinking they shouldn't have removed all of that in the first place. I also think that if they keep messing with the core mechanics that eventually they'll find a way to even piss off Obraik lol. If they lose him, they're totally screwed.
It's a NGE 2.0 without pissing off the current players because it creates more diversity and customization and interests new players. The one thing I found with the current game is you pick a class and then theres only two good builds everyone uses which don't offer that many skills. This new system would cut the boring classes noone plays and merges them into a more fun class while adding a brawler class people want and making beast master a class because it being expertise is currently flawed.
I really feel this is what SWG needs and I personally feel it is a WAY better system than pre cu and cu had.
Most of what you're asking for is exactly what NGE removed from the game. Also, we've seen with the Chapter 6 combat revamp that people who like the NGE style of game do get pissed off when the game is changed yet again to cater to the preference of veteran players like you and me.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with all (or most) of your ideas. I guess I just can't help thinking they shouldn't have removed all of that in the first place. I also think that if they keep messing with the core mechanics that eventually they'll find a way to even piss off Obraik lol. If they lose him, they're totally screwed.
Well it is giving us stuff back but its something they could easily do within the NGE and not like what people are asking for which is the old profession system.
So it's a more realistic way of asking for it.
Re-gifting...One of SOE's favorites.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
It's a NGE 2.0 without pissing off the current players because it creates more diversity and customization and interests new players. The one thing I found with the current game is you pick a class and then theres only two good builds everyone uses which don't offer that many skills. This new system would cut the boring classes noone plays and merges them into a more fun class while adding a brawler class people want and making beast master a class because it being expertise is currently flawed.
I really feel this is what SWG needs and I personally feel it is a WAY better system than pre cu and cu had.
Most of what you're asking for is exactly what NGE removed from the game. Also, we've seen with the Chapter 6 combat revamp that people who like the NGE style of game do get pissed off when the game is changed yet again to cater to the preference of veteran players like you and me.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with all (or most) of your ideas. I guess I just can't help thinking they shouldn't have removed all of that in the first place. I also think that if they keep messing with the core mechanics that eventually they'll find a way to even piss off Obraik lol. If they lose him, they're totally screwed.
Well it is giving us stuff back but its something they could easily do within the NGE and not like what people are asking for which is the old profession system.
So it's a more realistic way of asking for it.
Hey it doesn't hurt to try
. I'm all for diversity and customization in MMOs. I wish you luck with your ideas.
Diversity is always good, I just don't think it's a good idea to take away what the professions currently have - that never ends well.
I do disagree that BM should be made into a seperate profession. I've been a BH/BM ever since Chapter 6 when BM was added and it's a style of play I quite enjoy.
SOE just did a revamp of expertise to jedi with GU-3. That's where the LS/DS came into play. Before that jedi could be "grey" jedi picking up parts of both.
This has only been in game for a few months. Doubt they are going to CHANGE it again, real fast, anyway.
This is an amazing post coming from a pro-NGE poster. Take the arguments above and apply them to the NGE and maybe you'll see why us vets are upset.
This is an amazing post coming from a pro-NGE poster. Take the arguments above and apply them to the NGE and maybe you'll see why us vets are upset.
I don't think I've ever disagreed with that particular argument.
The problem I have with the BM being expertise is it feels like it would have been its own profesison but they just added it into expertise because it was easier and it ends up feeling rather tacked on and then makes me say then why can't I mix my class with medic or crafter etc etc. I don't like how you can't pick what you want to do as a trader because you're given 4 options and you can't say you want to take armoursmith and chef for example so I would rather the trader be merged into one and then pick what you want with expertise and merchant be made into that too.
Back to BM I think it would be sooo much better being its own class mixed with scout, ranger and BE I don't agree with it being expertise because it just ends up feeling half arsed. So I say keep 9 classes but merge two and create two new ones and it would make each class more fun and more diverse and add a proper brawler into the game.
Also I don't see why people complain about the game changing again because anything is better than the current system and making each class more diverse, unique and more fun isn't a change for the worse but the better. Things like being able to respec to other classes like we wused to would be great too.
On top of this I would love to see a UI change like getting rid of the horrible class pictures and the wheels and change them to a cleaner style thats easier to understand like what we had with PRE NGE. With new art and new animations and the older targeting system back then the game would be great.
I wsh'd they'd bring back spice too but Lucas wants Star Wars to be for kids these days.
BM as expertise allows for more diversity, not less, then if it was its own profession. You're not restricted to being a certain profession just to have a pet, if that's what you want and you can have varying levels of BM invested in your character. If BM were to be its own profession then I wouldn't be able to hunt bounties with my pet at my side, for instance.
If anything should be learnt from the past 5 years in SWG is that one should never assume what's "better". You may think something will be better if it was changed and you might even get support for it but all those people that have invested in what they have now, both time and item wise, will quickly make themselves heard. The big lesson learnt I think is that you don't make things better by replacing, but by adding on.
Don't worry, you'll get expertise revamps again sooner or later, they do it nearly every year- ever since the introduction of expertise back in 2006, they've revamped all profession expertise twice.
The UI is probably the biggest thing I'd like to see changed.
BM as expertise allows for more diversity, not less, then if it was its own profession. You're not restricted to being a certain profession just to have a pet, if that's what you want and you can have varying levels of BM invested in your character. If BM were to be its own profession then I wouldn't be able to hunt bounties with my pet at my side, for instance.
If anything should be learnt from the past 5 years in SWG is that one should never assume what's "better". You may think something will be better if it was changed and you might even get support for it but all those people that have invested in what they have now, both time and item wise, will quickly make themselves heard. The big lesson learnt I think is that you don't make things better by replacing, but by adding on.
The current core game needs to be replaced. There is nothing that can be added or tweaked to make the current game anything more than it currently is, an unfun mess of a game. The actual lesson that should be taken away from the SWG debalce is that you can't replace a core game that had potential (though never realized), with a core game that has absolutely no potential.
The only thing that can be accomplished by adding on to the current game is to somewhat maintain the current level of player populations. The various development teams that have burnt through SWG since the NGE have tossed plenty of crap against the wall, but unfortunately none of it stuck. The problems with the current version of the game is the core game itself. Even as a completely new and unrelated game, the current game would still be the worst MMO on the market. If it was a completely new game, built with an engine that could handle the combat mechanics, it would be Tabula Rasa, which would be an improvement, but only a marginal one (as Tabula Rasa's player populations show).
The current game is not even better than it was when the NGE was released. The only changes made are a pathetically implemented target lock with auto fire, WoW's talent system (which itself is on its third revamp), a handful of cookie cutter instances, a collection grind system, and a bunch of post NGE bug fixes. The core game is still as dreadful as it was when the NGE went live.
Medic, BH, BM, Entertainer, Trader, Spy and even Officer haven't had their expertise revamped. They've had adjustment made to the damage values on some of the abilities associated with them (Officer on an extreme scale) but the structure of the Expertise trees for these hasn't really been changed. Unlike Commando, Smuggler and Jedi...
Ah well I give up I mean I gave the game a month and I'm not resubbing because the classes lack customiztion and diversity and alot of them are broke and just boring to play or just don't play how you thought they would like Jedi don't play like a Jedi and Bounty Hunters don't have a good system in place.
The developers need to stop listening to the people who say I don't want decay or I don't want traders to have a bigger roll in the game. These people just hate the idea of losing their items and having a death penalty but thats the whole fun part of the game that keeps it going. Once you have something now in Galaxies you'll always have it which breaks the economy and makes the game boring because you hit that time where you have nothing to do because you've done everything. The GCW poitns decay and that keeps you busy with something so why can't things like items have decay too and why can't there be death penalties? I mean the Medics could have a Doctor roll back where they can be social and make hospitals useful with treating wounds and having a buffinf system like Entertainers. However they could mix that with Combat Medic rolls for people who want to do that instead. Bring back BF for entertainers too because that just makes them that bit more respected and is another downtime/social content.
What I learnt while Playing the game is the game is not much further on than it was when the NGE came out and they're going this stupid direction of just grinding isntances for loot. However most of the classes are still broken and lots of the features in the game are still broken and all the features players call for on the forums or in game are ignored everyday.
Infact when chatting to anyone they all say they want the pre NGE system back but mixed with the content we have today.
JUST GIVE US THAT!
Anyways this is my final say because what put me off playing the game any longer is the fact that the direction the developers are going in is all wrong and it'll be years yet before the game is any better wih the rate they're going. People say the old profession system was broken and while that was true for PVP it was really fun for all of us who loved messing about with it in PVE and making out own unique templates.
The NGE classes are broken too but atleast pre NGE we could be what we wanted.
Yea i propose a change..
Best would be, if you had 250 points to spent for example on different professions, every profession would have 4 different skill trees you can buy a skill from. Before you can buy 1 of the skills you have to invest in a novice box of the profession. After you filled all 4 skill trees you can train the Master skill to Master the Profession.
There should be 5 Basic professions
Artisan, Medic, Marksman , Scout , Brawler , entertainer, Politician
You should be able to pick and mix every skill of those.
Then there should be Elite/Hybrid professions i propose
Brawler has Teras Kasi, Swordsman , fencer , Pikemen.
Medic has combat medic and doctor and also Bio engineer.
Marksman is prerequisite for Riflemen, Pistoleer, carbineer, Squadleader, smuggler, Bounty hunter , commando and combat medic.
From Scout you could continue to train Ranger, Creature handler, Squadleader.
Artisan building the requirement for professions like weaponsmith, armorsmith, architect, Droid engineer, chef, tailor and merchant.
You can continue from entertainer in training Dancer, Musician and Image designer.
You don't have to master any of these profession so you should be able to dabble in any of these so current templates like Master TKA and fencer 4,0,4,0 Medic 0,0,4,0 for example could be possible.
Wouldn't that be a great idea ? of course i such a well designed system no player levels are required all get the skills they wanna use .
Also i propose that it should be unknown how to open the force sensitive slot leading for someone to become Jedi. jedi should be rare.
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$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
You know, this sounds like it could work.
I think in addition:
There should be a credit sink in game as well. Maybe they could make those Artisan professions you described provide items in game that are overall better than looted ones so people have something to spend credits on. Perhaps even have some sort of a decay system to generate repeat business. I bet even some of those doctors could even make stuff; something like first aid kits I guess. Those artisans can pay those credits they earn to combat types to get them resources to craft with from dangerous areas the crafter doesn't have the skills to survive in.
I think it might be a good idea to take the travel button out of starship terminals so people have to launch and hyperdrive through space. As a result some people may use the planetary shuttles more often creating a social oppertunity.
All items used in game can be earned or bought off another player in game.
It would be cool if they slowed down combat and general movement in game as well. This could help to free up network resources allowing more people to play on the same server without excess lag. Heck they could compenstate this by having some good animations so the player is none the wiser.
They could make it so that a senior player can team with a junior player and help the junior player to get xp to use on those skills you mentioned.
Also wouldn't be cool if there were NPCs that you could get trained by to get those skills. The NPCs could even charge a fee for a credit sink. It could be done in a way that other players that have that skill can also train people.
It would be awsome if almost every item in game that was crafted looked different so people could use them for elaborate home decoration. An Armor Repair Kit could resemble an oven door if somebody decided they want to build a kitchen.
It may work to have multiple stats when creating items. So a person can customise the crafted item to fill a specific need or desire. I guess space parts and munitions traders do have that now.
A cool dynamic that may be fun is if you attack an NPC of an opposing faction, the players of that faction could then be allowed to attack you temperarely attack you. Even have some professions have to hide what they are all the time to keep from getting...oh, what's the word...flagged. Maybe if the profession that should stay hidden gets discovered and dies so many times there could be a perma...something or other. It could act as an incentive to stay hidden and even contribute to roleplay.
These are just some of the things I could think of that might work with what you described. Maybe we could get together and design a game like this based on the SW universe. Who knows maybe LA would go for it.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
BM as expertise allows for more diversity, not less, then if it was its own profession. You're not restricted to being a certain profession just to have a pet, if that's what you want and you can have varying levels of BM invested in your character. If BM were to be its own profession then I wouldn't be able to hunt bounties with my pet at my side, for instance.
If anything should be learnt from the past 5 years in SWG is that one should never assume what's "better". You may think something will be better if it was changed and you might even get support for it but all those people that have invested in what they have now, both time and item wise, will quickly make themselves heard. The big lesson learnt I think is that you don't make things better by replacing, but by adding on.
Absolute best post I've seen with your signature, Obraik.
Your right, I really do not believe that SWG populations could take another complete re-vamp, even if it was more toward the befores.
The only way for vets to get their game and leave be who's left with NGE is a "classic" server and that is exactly what needs to be done. Even an NGE "starter" can see it.
SWG needs a revamp as a whole. It just lacks.
Tecmo Bowl.
How many more revamps do they get til they get it right? Or maybe they had it right to begin with?
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
OMG, yes! What is up with the blue cursor and my head following it everywhere? The green cursor is what I have clicked on and it is what I am interested in, yet this blue cursor is tracking everything and anything that walks past. It is sooo dumb.
Akevv Ostone
No Longer SWG Free
Every major change to the game has been an attempt to balance the classes and revamp them. Many will argue that is mainly due to pvp but it doesn't matter the reason. The constant need to revamp classes to bring balance has been an ongoing struggle with the game since the beginning and the way it is now I can see no real way to resolve it without another major change to the combat system in the game. For every tweak to one profession, they have to nerf it in some way to prevent fotm power builds. I cannot see SOE overhauling the combat system again to bring about a system that puts classes as equals as this would also require an overhaul of the weapons and armor stats that are out there also.
I no longer play the game but when I left many classes were in dire need of revamps, so have gotten them, some haven't. But for every revamp or tweak to a class, you will find they have to nerf skills and abilites later due to overpowering that class. i have always felt sorry for the devs that were given the revamp tasks as it is a never ending goal in this game.
*Note* Please note that I am a Vet and am not flaming NGE or SOE in this post. I found the solution to the problems I saw in the game and quit. Since I no longer play, I can still be supportive of those that do and try to help them have the enjoyment in the game I once found myself.