Biggest mistakes in MMORPG's

slask777 · September 2008

Read some random crap on the internet about mmo's and why some people hate them with a passion. Some parts I was in agreement with, which surprised me cause usually I find trolls and their logic best observed through a two-way mirror, watched through a bloody camera fixed through a satelite feed, on the moon.

Anyway, one point they observed which I totally agreed with was the escort missions so many mmorpg's bastardized. I always skip them with a passion as I find grinding my teeths and staring at the pretty colours I see when I apply pressure to my eyes a more fun past time, cause the npc-AI was programmed by a retarded monkey with downs syndrome. Another thing is the useless tradeskills. What use will ANYONE ever have for some grey lowbie shit no-one even look at as even the newbie gear you start with is better?

nikoliath · September 2008

so true.

Thoric485 · September 2008

Auto-attack, static world, lack of AI, generic storylines, making MMOs more and more time consuming because they're unable to keep the player subscribed by just being fun.

Larry2298 · September 2008

Poor quality products just like a defective vehicle, and the patch just like a workshop. Good quality but lack of speed (contents) is not a high performance vehicle but keeps you running.

Abrahmm · September 2008

Biggest mistake in MMORPG? That's easy, NGE.

Wharg0ul · September 2008

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Biggest mistake in MMORPG? That's easy, NGE.

Here here, man.

And btw OP....only in the recent slew of raid-centric loot-whore games are crafted items useless.

Evasia · September 2008

Originally posted by slask777

Read some random crap on the internet about mmo's and why some people hate them with a passion. Some parts I was in agreement with, which surprised me cause usually I find trolls and their logic best observed through a two-way mirror, watched through a bloody camera fixed through a satelite feed, on the moon.
Anyway, one point they observed which I totally agreed with was the escort missions so many mmorpg's bastardized. I always skip them with a passion as I find grinding my teeths and staring at the pretty colours I see when I apply pressure to my eyes a more fun past time, cause the npc-AI was programmed by a retarded monkey with downs syndrome. Another thing is the useless tradeskills. What use will ANYONE ever have for some grey lowbie shit no-one even look at as even the newbie gear you start with is better?

Many mobs in AoC dont even have AI they just standing there like in a waxmuseum and its not some areas its about 70% of mobs npc's who are just waiting to be slaughter without any AI:P

Evasia · September 2008

Originally posted by Thoric485

Auto-attack, static world, lack of AI, generic storylines, making MMOs more and more time consuming because they're unable to keep the player subscribed by just being fun.

Well it seems this ZOMBIEMODE works in wow they have millions of players who wanne play a game that lacks any intelligents, a 8 year old kid can play it:P

paulscott · September 2008

Ignoring trade skills. Adding another path of advancement, a couple dozen more goals and mechanics to explore utterly and completely flushed down the toilet.

GreenChaos · September 2008

Biggest MMO mistake is reading forum posts about MMOs.

pencilrick · September 2008

Biggest mistakes, IMO:

1. Linear design: Assuming players need to follow a "story" instead of simply letting them explore a world.

2. No significant death penalty: If dying doesn't hurt, it doesn't feel real or immersive. Dying doesn't have to have horrible consquences, but should be enough of an annoyance to make a player's heart skip a beat when that sand giant whacks him from behind for 300 points of damage. Also, a death penalty makes dungeons more fun and scary.

3. Too much PVP: The vocal PVP minority is getting too much attention in new MMO design. PVP-centric MMO's tend to flounder, and for a reason. PVP is pointless and repetitive, IMO, much like playing tag football in the backyard.

4. Too many slider bars during customization: Obsessive players will never be satisfied with their choices unless they can select from a finite list and know that choice was the best from the list. Some customization is good, but too much open-ended customization is a distraction. We don't need nose slider bars, for example.

5. Too many redundant classes: We don't really need two types of bards or two types of shamans. Keep classes to about a dozen choices or so gives players class identity and more easily identifiable class roles.

6. Seamless world: Not talking about loading times so much as zones that seem like they all mesh together in one indistringuishable mess of green, gray and brown. Zones should have their own character. Also, zones should have their own chat channel.

7. VENT: any live voice chat ends up detracting from immersion and becomes real non-game chat or sports-like team chat in raids. I've never seen anyone role-play in VENT (or the equivalent).

8. Zillions of quests: While some quests are good for giving players direction and keeping them occupied, too many quests end up destroying the community and the feel of freedom, as players feel compelled (by experience rewards) to follow some monotonous cookie-crump trail of endless quests. Yes, people will engage in behavior they do not enjoy in order to gain some advantage or reward, much like if you threw a bunch of one dollars bills in the air among a crowd of people, many would drop to their hands and knees to pick them up, but not a one would recall this as an enjoyable experience. Perhaps this is called "following the path of least resistance."

9. Real-life out-of-game humor: A lame joke referencing the present world might garner some recognition or a chuckle, but this destroys immersion more than anything else. Lack of enforcement of a naming policy also falls under this category.

10. Designing a game instead of a world: The lure of fantasy (fiction too, not just gaming) has always been "I want to live in this world". Like Middle Earth or Hyboria's free-spirited adventures, the draw of being able to live in a simpler and more direct environment is compelling. Players want to log into a "world", not into a "game". While games can be fun, there is nothing quite so magical as logging into an MMO because of its world.

Kaiserjager · October 2008

Very nicely said pencilrick, very nicely indeed.

Samuraisword · October 2008

Top 3:

Instancing

lack of significant death penalties

not trade/bind on equip items

slask777 · October 2008

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Biggest mistake in MMORPG? That's easy, NGE.

Here here, man.

And btw OP....only in the recent slew of raid-centric loot-whore games are crafted items useless.

Well, not entirelly true. In Anarchy Online(my first mmo love), lots of tradeskill recipes are beyond useless, but then again, so are alot of the items, even if you only play classic as a froob. Funny when a tradeskilled weapon is worse than the newbie weapon you start with

Kaynos1972 · October 2008

SOE, period.

pencilrick · October 2008

Originally posted by Kaiserjager

Very nicely said pencilrick, very nicely indeed.

Thanks.

apak · October 2008

So many clone games out there. They all do the same thing with a different world and different engine. I want to see someone atleast try to throw some original content out there, I tried age of conan i didn't stick with it but i really have to give them credit for doing something atleast outside the box with the combat. FF11 is one game i can say is completely different from most MMOs, thats good or bad based from one person to another. I want an MMO that works like fable. Depending what you do and how you play decides what faction you are on. I like a good story with good gameplay. Make a MMOFPS that has leveling and a world and endgame bosses that plays like a combination of call of duty 4. I am looking forward to AION looks like it has some new content in it but nothing big. I want something the can rebuild how you look at a MMO.

lugal · October 2008

I have to disagree about pvp being a problem. Look at the games that have pathetic pvp, SWG(fun till you get nerfed, damm NGE), LOTRO(Monster battle? LOL!), even AoC had shit pvp at launch. People hate on pvp cuz it doesnt reward you with anything more than braggin rights(WoW). PVP with purpose and consequences hasnt really been done yet. AoC is trying that, but I have doubts they can save that game. Right now, WAR is looking like a good choice, but I'm liking WW2O alot right now.

What I'm saying is, a game that makes you fight, yet rewards success and punishes failure. Your side or faction dominates a zones pvp objectives, they get bonus to trade or gathering, access to certain pve areas. That hasnt really been done, when somebody has the balls to do it, they got a winner.

hydrasnake · October 2008

1. Not fixing the LAG. I spent the whole time trying to run to the otherside town in LastChaosUSA.

2. Crap skill systems that makes no sense. coughShoOnlinecough

3. Death penalties, cause I hate it when I almost makes to the next level and then get killed and have to grind.

4. Mounts that costs thousands of dollars, I'd rather walk.

5. PK zones, cause I don't like to PvP.

6. Shitty looking armors that costs too much.

7. Weapons that costs too much.

8. Weird drop rates.

9. Crap graphics.

10. General Chat, cause you don't where the other person is.

11. Zones where people likes to set up shop. Because it's laggy and you can't see a thing 'cause they all write in block letters.

I could go on and on but I won't bore you.

Indo · October 2008

Having EA publish it

DeaconX · October 2008

Originally posted by pencilrick

Biggest mistakes, IMO:
1. Linear design: Assuming players need to follow a "story" instead of simply letting them explore a world.
2. No significant death penalty: If dying doesn't hurt, it doesn't feel real or immersive. Dying doesn't have to have horrible consquences, but should be enough of an annoyance to make a player's heart skip a beat when that sand giant whacks him from behind for 300 points of damage. Also, a death penalty makes dungeons more fun and scary.
3. Too much PVP: The vocal PVP minority is getting too much attention in new MMO design. PVP-centric MMO's tend to flounder, and for a reason. PVP is pointless and repetitive, IMO, much like playing tag football in the backyard.
4. Too many slider bars during customization: Obsessive players will never be satisfied with their choices unless they can select from a finite list and know that choice was the best from the list. Some customization is good, but too much open-ended customization is a distraction. We don't need nose slider bars, for example.
5. Too many redundant classes: We don't really need two types of bards or two types of shamans. Keep classes to about a dozen choices or so gives players class identity and more easily identifiable class roles.
6. Seamless world: Not talking about loading times so much as zones that seem like they all mesh together in one indistringuishable mess of green, gray and brown. Zones should have their own character. Also, zones should have their own chat channel.
7. VENT: any live voice chat ends up detracting from immersion and becomes real non-game chat or sports-like team chat in raids. I've never seen anyone role-play in VENT (or the equivalent).
8. Zillions of quests: While some quests are good for giving players direction and keeping them occupied, too many quests end up destroying the community and the feel of freedom, as players feel compelled (by experience rewards) to follow some monotonous cookie-crump trail of endless quests. Yes, people will engage in behavior they do not enjoy in order to gain some advantage or reward, much like if you threw a bunch of one dollars bills in the air among a crowd of people, many would drop to their hands and knees to pick them up, but not a one would recall this as an enjoyable experience. Perhaps this is called "following the path of least resistance."
9. Real-life out-of-game humor: A lame joke referencing the present world might garner some recognition or a chuckle, but this destroys immersion more than anything else. Lack of enforcement of a naming policy also falls under this category.
10. Designing a game instead of a world: The lure of fantasy (fiction too, not just gaming) has always been "I want to live in this world". Like Middle Earth or Hyboria's free-spirited adventures, the draw of being able to live in a simpler and more direct environment is compelling. Players want to log into a "world", not into a "game". While games can be fun, there is nothing quite so magical as logging into an MMO because of its world.

Gyrus · October 2008

Originally posted by pencilrick

Biggest mistakes, IMO:
1. Linear design: Assuming players need to follow a "story" instead of simply letting them explore a world.
2. No significant death penalty: If dying doesn't hurt, it doesn't feel real or immersive. Dying doesn't have to have horrible consquences, but should be enough of an annoyance to make a player's heart skip a beat when that sand giant whacks him from behind for 300 points of damage. Also, a death penalty makes dungeons more fun and scary.
3. Too much PVP: The vocal PVP minority is getting too much attention in new MMO design. PVP-centric MMO's tend to flounder, and for a reason. PVP is pointless and repetitive, IMO, much like playing tag football in the backyard.
4. Too many slider bars during customization: Obsessive players will never be satisfied with their choices unless they can select from a finite list and know that choice was the best from the list. Some customization is good, but too much open-ended customization is a distraction. We don't need nose slider bars, for example.
5. Too many redundant classes: We don't really need two types of bards or two types of shamans. Keep classes to about a dozen choices or so gives players class identity and more easily identifiable class roles.
6. Seamless world: Not talking about loading times so much as zones that seem like they all mesh together in one indistringuishable mess of green, gray and brown. Zones should have their own character. Also, zones should have their own chat channel.
7. VENT: any live voice chat ends up detracting from immersion and becomes real non-game chat or sports-like team chat in raids. I've never seen anyone role-play in VENT (or the equivalent).
8. Zillions of quests: While some quests are good for giving players direction and keeping them occupied, too many quests end up destroying the community and the feel of freedom, as players feel compelled (by experience rewards) to follow some monotonous cookie-crump trail of endless quests. Yes, people will engage in behavior they do not enjoy in order to gain some advantage or reward, much like if you threw a bunch of one dollars bills in the air among a crowd of people, many would drop to their hands and knees to pick them up, but not a one would recall this as an enjoyable experience. Perhaps this is called "following the path of least resistance."
9. Real-life out-of-game humor: A lame joke referencing the present world might garner some recognition or a chuckle, but this destroys immersion more than anything else. Lack of enforcement of a naming policy also falls under this category.
10. Designing a game instead of a world: The lure of fantasy (fiction too, not just gaming) has always been "I want to live in this world". Like Middle Earth or Hyboria's free-spirited adventures, the draw of being able to live in a simpler and more direct environment is compelling. Players want to log into a "world", not into a "game". While games can be fun, there is nothing quite so magical as logging into an MMO because of its world.

Nicely said. I mostly agree.

I would add RvR without consequence.

PvE, PvP and RvR can and should work together and have consequence.

It doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be) crippling for the loser(s) but it should mean something.

This goes back to designing a world - not a game.

Doneal7 · October 2008

Originally posted by pencilrick

Biggest mistakes, IMO:
1. Linear design: Assuming players need to follow a "story" instead of simply letting them explore a world.
While alot of people play games for the games sake most people actually like being told what to do. Why do you think single player games sell?
2. No significant death penalty: If dying doesn't hurt, it doesn't feel real or immersive. Dying doesn't have to have horrible consquences, but should be enough of an annoyance to make a player's heart skip a beat when that sand giant whacks him from behind for 300 points of damage. Also, a death penalty makes dungeons more fun and scary.
I could almost agree with you on this but there are alot of casual gamers, most of us don't like working for hours to achieve a level or gear or quest. I have had friends who worked for days on a single three step quest. Sometimes you should just let the young ones have their cookies. I believe it should be optional, your choice, either exp. loss, or gear loss, or simply having to run out and get your gear.
3. Too much PVP: The vocal PVP minority is getting too much attention in new MMO design. PVP-centric MMO's tend to flounder, and for a reason. PVP is pointless and repetitive, IMO, much like playing tag football in the backyard.
That's an excellent point, the PvP players are the most vocal and require alot of attention from most game developers. Why do they get the developers ear? Because they speak. Developers tend to listen to their gamers, sometimes a little too much.
4. Too many slider bars during customization: Obsessive players will never be satisfied with their choices unless they can select from a finite list and know that choice was the best from the list. Some customization is good, but too much open-ended customization is a distraction. We don't need nose slider bars, for example.
This has got to be only a matter of opinion. I find that having a unique character that I can truly call mine is very nice to have. But then you do have a small point. No one is going to look at your character's nose. I think that they should have more unique armor and weaponry and more choices of said items rather than awesome character design.
5. Too many redundant classes: We don't really need two types of bards or two types of shamans. Keep classes to about a dozen choices or so gives players class identity and more easily identifiable class roles.
A dozen choices? That's quite a few, maybe there should be base classes that you can change and build towards your own purposes without creating unstability (eg. Pre-CU SWG)
6. Seamless world: Not talking about loading times so much as zones that seem like they all mesh together in one indistringuishable mess of green, gray and brown. Zones should have their own character. Also, zones should have their own chat channel.
Developers should spend more time on these things, we know that having great graphics are cool for about a week, then you start to get bogged down in bad lag. But most of us experienced players would rather have a working and bugless game than a beautiful and overdone world.
7. VENT: any live voice chat ends up detracting from immersion and becomes real non-game chat or sports-like team chat in raids. I've never seen anyone role-play in VENT (or the equivalent).
Depends on what you are talking about. If you are referring to voice chat in WoW or SWG then I heartily agree with you. What needs to be typed can be typed, but I doubt most people will role play either way. Most of the time it's "Wich way 2teh bank?" or "Plz give me munny". I think it's best to let sleeping dogs lie. And you aren't required to use the VENT.
8. Zillions of quests: While some quests are good for giving players direction and keeping them occupied, too many quests end up destroying the community and the feel of freedom, as players feel compelled (by experience rewards) to follow some monotonous cookie-crump trail of endless quests. Yes, people will engage in behavior they do not enjoy in order to gain some advantage or reward, much like if you threw a bunch of one dollars bills in the air among a crowd of people, many would drop to their hands and knees to pick them up, but not a one would recall this as an enjoyable experience. Perhaps this is called "following the path of least resistance."
I don't believe that having alot of quests is a problem. I believe the quests should profit someone, but then I'd be entering onto the subject of a player driven economy. Before Puzzle Pirates became free and was flooded with kiddies, there was a strong player driven economy that made earning money and buying goods actually a task worth your time.
9. Real-life out-of-game humor: A lame joke referencing the present world might garner some recognition or a chuckle, but this destroys immersion more than anything else. Lack of enforcement of a naming policy also falls under this category.
This, in my opinion, wouldn't really kill a game. It might annoy you, but it's not enough to say it destroyed an MMO.
10. Designing a game instead of a world: The lure of fantasy (fiction too, not just gaming) has always been "I want to live in this world". Like Middle Earth or Hyboria's free-spirited adventures, the draw of being able to live in a simpler and more direct environment is compelling. Players want to log into a "world", not into a "game". While games can be fun, there is nothing quite so magical as logging into an MMO because of its world.
This is what Roleplaying servers are for. But you are right, for example. LOTRO was at least from my perspective killed by the lack of monster races and over done quests. I mean for real, you go to the barrow downs and you see hundreds of players running around killing skeletons. I wanted to go to a place that was actually threatening. I guess for the most part you are right. Your statements needed a little revision but sure, you got it. Props to you!

Reklaw · October 2008

Biggest mistakes in MMORPG's: Expectations of the community.

k11keeper · October 2008

Biggest mistakes Hmm..... I like this topic it's a neat one. The thing is I can't really figure out what is the biggest mistake. What is one mans mistake is what another man would think is the greatest achievement.

Like, for example, some people don't like PvP. I'm not a huge PvP fan myself but it is fun when it's done right. I think the only games that I've ever really enjoyed PvP in were DAoC and L2 any other game i've played i absolutely hated the PvP for some reason.

DAoC probably because you felt you needed to protect your realm and show that it was better then the others and it being my first MMO might have something to with it too (you gotta love that fist one that got you hooked). L2 because of the consequences I think and the fact that it could happen anytime, anywhere, and anyone could be involved no matter what race or area they were from. You could lose you're loot and lot of experience when you lost too. One of the coolest things was you could cause month long battles between two or more clans that cause you to have to watch your back and everyone in your clans back at all times labeling someone KOS from another clan or someone that got booted from yours was always awesome. And finally castle sieges were pretty freaking awesome with that many people involved when the lag was manageble.

So i guess my point is yeah i loved the PvP in L2 and pretty much hate it in all other games. Does that mean PvP is bad. Not neccesarily, but I guess even the huge mistakes named so far if done right can still be enjoyable by some and hated by others.

Oh but one thing I do really hate when equip you craft is absolutely useless and no one in gods name would ever buy it or keep it if it was free but it's the only thing you can skill up off of from lvl 65-73 in smithing or things like that. That really irks me and I think everyone can agree on that. Or they are just wrong and fail at life

Urrelles · October 2008

I've really wanted to push the enemy AI button. Its been over 10 years and our MMO games still have the same NPC enemies who stand around or walk in predicatble patrols. I made a topic about this a few months ago too.

Why don't we have NPC characters who are aware of their surroundings? Why is a player able to walk almost 20 feet from a mob and not be noticed, yet the player can see the mob from 500 feet away?

When are we going to get rid of the generic aggro system? I hate seeing healers get mobbed by 6 enemies because his regen spell ticked to 2 points on the tnak just after the pull. Split the neemies up and make them attack different people on a pull.

Can we get rid of the crappy pull system that has full camps of enemies ignoring the fact that their partner just got shot in the back with an arrow. If you pull a mob in a camp, nearly half the camp should be alerted with a verying responses from ducking and covering, running in fear, and charging head first.

Animals really piss me off in MMOs. It seems mother natures only intent is to kill anything humanlike that moves. Just because it's a bear doesn't mean it wnat to instantly kill you. Make animals attack at random. Maybe if you hold food in yoru inventory animals will attack you for it. Above all make animals act a little bit like the real ones. Wolves don't attack solo. If you encounter a lone wolf, it runs. Deer do not charge headfirst into a fight when attacked. Nor do they fight to the bitter end when losing an obvious battle. They run, FAST!

All I want are some smarter AI. It is really not that hard to program.

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