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Mythic's biggest mistake: Populations and controls

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  • CereoCereo Member Posts: 551

    gestalt! you wrote enough text through this discussion to turn it into a book. Grab up all these words and turn it into a book and make some money out of the deal at least. Because your words is wasted here.

  • Originally posted by Imjin

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Originally posted by darwa

    Originally posted by gestalt11



    Why would anyone stay on a low pop server?  Only for emotional reasons.  Further whichever faction has a significant edge will drive away the other faction making balance even more unlikely.


     

    While the rest of your post is great, this part is complete rubbish.

    A lot of players like me actively seek out the underdog for the simple reason that we like a challenge, not for some imagined emotional reason. Playing Order is most definitely a challenge, and this is just what I like :)

    I'm hardly on Sylvania for emotional reasons. That's just crazy talk. lol

     

    That is emotional.  Wanting a challenge is fundamentally emotional. 

    I didn't say they wanted to be their because they are a bunch of panty waste over sensitive and needy cry babies.

     

    There is no advantage to the low pop servers.  Even for challenge you won't get much because just finding any action at all can be hard.

    I have personally run around on a low server in T1 for over an hour and never found a single destro.  And i this server is at least 2 to 1 out numbered maybe eve 3 to 1.

    When you do actually find some action and if you wait long enough for the 2 people who found you to spread the word then yes you might get your emiontal need for a challenge sated.

    Not very well though.  Probably should check out a medium high server if that is what you want.



     

    And you realize that wanting to be on high population servers is emotipnal as well right. Everything is "emotional" as you choose to define it

     

    Not really.  If you go over again you can separate "emotional" from "obvious advantage".  The only trick is that some things are done out of a sense of emotion are just plain misplaced.

     

    You maybe be on a server because you like the name and made a few friends.  That would be an emotional attachment.  You may have an "emotional" need for action in which case it seems pretty obivous to choose a high population server.

     

    You may believe that your "emotional" need for "challenge" will be sated on a non-full server with no caps.  But if you goto to far down and roll low pop you will be wrong because even if there are a lot more destro that does not mean there are a enough.

     

    So in the end they are simply projecting their belief of some sort of challenge, which is purely emotional.  Because clearly empty RvR zones are not all that challenging.  They can romanticize the belief that they are the underdog all they.  And they can even be truly far behind in the ratio but 100 destro will never cover the zones even if there are only 10 order.

     

    The point being there is no solid obserable advantage to rolling low pop.  The only one that is real and not imaginary or completely arbitrary is queue times.  And there are a number of solid observable objective advantages to going high pop.

     

    And I have already stated how queue are not sufficient to inventivize people to go low population once they realize how little action there is in both PvE and PvP.

     

    If you rolled low pop because you want a challenge you did so for emotional reason.  Because that challenge does not exist.  So if you are still there it is not for some objective reason.

  • ImjinImjin Member Posts: 366
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Originally posted by Imjin

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Originally posted by darwa

    Originally posted by gestalt11



    Why would anyone stay on a low pop server?  Only for emotional reasons.  Further whichever faction has a significant edge will drive away the other faction making balance even more unlikely.


     

    While the rest of your post is great, this part is complete rubbish.

    A lot of players like me actively seek out the underdog for the simple reason that we like a challenge, not for some imagined emotional reason. Playing Order is most definitely a challenge, and this is just what I like :)

    I'm hardly on Sylvania for emotional reasons. That's just crazy talk. lol

     

    That is emotional.  Wanting a challenge is fundamentally emotional. 

    I didn't say they wanted to be their because they are a bunch of panty waste over sensitive and needy cry babies.

     

    There is no advantage to the low pop servers.  Even for challenge you won't get much because just finding any action at all can be hard.

    I have personally run around on a low server in T1 for over an hour and never found a single destro.  And i this server is at least 2 to 1 out numbered maybe eve 3 to 1.

    When you do actually find some action and if you wait long enough for the 2 people who found you to spread the word then yes you might get your emiontal need for a challenge sated.

    Not very well though.  Probably should check out a medium high server if that is what you want.



     

    And you realize that wanting to be on high population servers is emotipnal as well right. Everything is "emotional" as you choose to define it

     

    Not really.  If you go over again you can separate "emotional" from "obvious advantage".  The only trick is that some things are done out of a sense of emotion are just plain misplaced.

     

    You maybe be on a server because you like the name and made a few friends.  That would be an emotional attachment.  You may have an "emotional" need for action in which case it seems pretty obivous to choose a high population server.

     

    You may believe that your "emotional" need for "challenge" will be sated on a non-full server with no caps.  But if you goto to far down and roll low pop you will be wrong because even if there are a lot more destro that does not mean there are a enough.

     

    So in the end they are simply projecting their belief of some sort of challenge, which is purely emotional.  Because clearly empty RvR zones are not all that challenging.  They can romanticize the belief that they are the underdog all they.  And they can even be truly far behind in the ratio but 100 destro will never cover the zones even if there are only 10 order.

     

    The point being there is no solid obserable advantage to rolling low pop.  The only one that is real and not imaginary or completely arbitrary is queue times.  And there are a number of solid observable objective advantages to going high pop.

     

    And I have already stated how queue are not sufficient to inventivize people to go low population once they realize how little action there is in both PvE and PvP.

     

    If you rolled low pop because you want a challenge you did so for emotional reason.  Because that challenge does not exist.  So if you are still there it is not for some objective reason.



     

    Make it as wordy as you want. You corrected someone for being emotional but by your definition everything is based on emotion.

    On a side note I am curious if you are working on your doctorate in MMOlogy given the amount of writing you have done.

    Maybe you are driven by emotion becasue honestly theres no reason to go on and ona nd on like you do. Methinks you get emotionally charged when people dont by into YOUR "logic"

    Fungerer som det skal

  • ZebladeZeblade Member UncommonPosts: 931

    I see your point OP but  you can play on a low server if rvr and PVP are not your main options. I do both because I like both. One I play on a heavy server and a low one. The low one I do PVE and you can do this all the way to 40 and have a blast. I know I not the only one becaues I see other toons playing all around me on th LOW servers. I asked them and there there for the same reasons.. They really dont care about RVR and like the quests and such.. so to each his own.

    Like WOW you said.. yet I have a friend that ONLY played WOW for PVP. Yet I never played PVP in WOW..  No differnt than AoC. You can PVE yet the game is build about PVP and with out people its just not fun. Yet War you can to both its build about PVP/RVR and fight for a keep and watch the other guys building a catapult (in closed beta at lvl 30+) is a blast. People need to stay with it ..it will pay off in the end..

  • FariicFariic Member Posts: 1,546

    When I logged on yesterday, every server was at medium.

    Posts like this can be a little misleading.

    No mention of what server the OP is refering to.

    No mention of at what times the OP plays.

    No mention of roughly how many people are actually at an equivelent level.

    The OP is in the late 20's, game hasn''t been out a week yet, and I'm getting the impression that the OP was an early access member.  Leveling is NOT that fast.  I play a little more then casually and I'm only at 12/ 12, and I do 90% pvp wich gives much better xp then pve.

    I'm sorry, but if you're playing ahead of the leveling curve then you're creating a portion of the problem yourself.  I ran around a T2 zone the other day and didn't see to many people in it, run around the starting zones and there are people all  over the place.

    Playing on Bechafen (sp?), in the last two days I've primarilly been doing world PvP.  As order we took the world objectives, held them against pretty even odds, and then me and my friend ran around in the desto questing areas of Nordland killing other players.

    I've done every PQ to the end in Nordland, I click the scenario button and within 30 sec I'm in.

    But this is my server.  Not every server, and I know that there are only a couple of low pop servers at prime time. 

    If you play as on the side of the heavy populated faction you're going to have wait times to enter a scenario, not the other way around.  If you have to wait to do a scenario because there aren't enough of the other faction players to get the matches roatating with more frequency then I'm not really sure how you can't complete a PQ, there should be plenty of you to do them, unless you're ahead of the curve and there aren't enough peope in your level range yet.

    It's not the games fault if you rush through the levels.

    As a side note, I played on a WoW pvp server.  Every other thread was about pop imbalance.  Mostly it was to many alli and not enough horde, on smolderthorn it was actually the other way around.  I would wait for over 30 min most times to get into a BG when they come out because there weren't enough alli on our server.  It was a pain but I couldn't really complain, I was helping to contribute to the problem; so I kept my mouth shut.

  • rafmeisterrafmeister Member Posts: 69
    Originally posted by Erindal


    I can argue with you. If you have a stand alone complex - then that's just you.
    If you can't even find 5 more peoples to complete a PQ - that's just you again.
    Who said that you will able to complete a PQ alone? or take a keep?
    Full 6 ppl party is ENOUGH to complete ANY PQ in game. Sometimes we managed to complete it in 5 ppl.
    Taking a keep... well you need at least 6-10 peoples to kill the Keep Lord depends of your skill. 2 Full parties should not have any problem doing it. But yes - ventrilo and yes - skilled players. That's 12 peoples... 6-12 peoples more to wipe or at least hold the opposite faction. 
    Holding/defending the keep will be the problem for you always, but what a deal to take a keep then buy your gear and forget it till you need to get the gear again? 
    So in the end of this... you need only one guild with 24 active players to have 4 parties for PQ's and dungeons and a warband for Keeps.
    I don't see any problems with low populated servers and i don't see any Mythic's mistakes. But i see your fault in inventing non-existent "mistakes". That's just you and your un-social activities (you can't get 6 peoples to complete a PQ).

    I don't think you comprehend what we are talking about. There is no one to group with can't very well group with people who are not there. If you can put together a group of six people when you are the only person in the zone you have some serious grouping skills.

     

    I have 30+ hours of play on my charactter and am almost done with tier 2. in that 30 hours I have been in 5 scenarios and I queue up the very first thing when I log in. I have seen an enemy player outside of said scenarios 4 times total. For good chunks of my play time I am lucky if I see 1 or even 2 other people in the same zone as me. Not being able to group has nothing to do with being anti-social. You can't group when there is no one to group with.

  • rafmeisterrafmeister Member Posts: 69

    sorry leveling is uber rediculous easy in this game if I hadn't been taking time to actually explore I would be mid 20's by now and even worse off.  Have not pvp'd much, but then there hasn't been anyone to PVP against. And if you go back to tier 1 and try to pvp you get chickened so that is kind of pointless too.-

  • Frostbite05Frostbite05 Member Posts: 1,880

    say wa.....its actually pretty  slow to level and heh the scenario wait on my server is short as hell in t2 so you must be playing on one of those low pop servers and theres very few of those heh

  • rafmeisterrafmeister Member Posts: 69

    Um sorry no leveling in this game is even easier than leveling in WOW which is saying something as it had the easiest leveling curve out there until now. If you think leveling in this game is slow you have never played a game with a real death penalty and long leveling curve. And if you are having issues leveling maybe you might want to consider playing something other than an MMO.

  • OrthedosOrthedos Member Posts: 1,771
    Originally posted by rafmeister


    Um sorry no leveling in this game is even easier than leveling in WOW which is saying something as it had the easiest leveling curve out there until now. If you think leveling in this game is slow you have never played a game with a real death penalty and long leveling curve. And if you are having issues leveling maybe you might want to consider playing something other than an MMO.



     

    Maybe you can try to take back some of the harsh tones.

    I am playing with my dear one and a 6year old boy, 3 comps 3 accounts.  I find it natural going here, clicking this, shooting that at max range (look at the color of the character 1 on the tool bar slot 1 till its just not red in color ...).  Yes its almost second nature.

    My dear one has never played anything other than 10 hours in WoW.  She finds it both fascinating and frustrating.  She has to ask hmm ... how do I shoot a bow.  Where do I get a bow (no dear one your are a mage you do not use a bow like me ...).  They spent hours reading every mission text 20x.  While I just look at what the quest requires (oh 5 mobs, easy, 30 seconds, done).

    Actually for those who find levelling "hard" they are also enjoying the most.  The 6 year old is enjoying it most.  Pressing the space bar is jumping woot hahahah and he spent an hour jumping.  His alt is still level 1.

     

  • Originally posted by Imjin

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Originally posted by Imjin

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Originally posted by darwa

    Originally posted by gestalt11



    Why would anyone stay on a low pop server?  Only for emotional reasons.  Further whichever faction has a significant edge will drive away the other faction making balance even more unlikely.


     

    While the rest of your post is great, this part is complete rubbish.

    A lot of players like me actively seek out the underdog for the simple reason that we like a challenge, not for some imagined emotional reason. Playing Order is most definitely a challenge, and this is just what I like :)

    I'm hardly on Sylvania for emotional reasons. That's just crazy talk. lol

     

    That is emotional.  Wanting a challenge is fundamentally emotional. 

    I didn't say they wanted to be their because they are a bunch of panty waste over sensitive and needy cry babies.

     

    There is no advantage to the low pop servers.  Even for challenge you won't get much because just finding any action at all can be hard.

    I have personally run around on a low server in T1 for over an hour and never found a single destro.  And i this server is at least 2 to 1 out numbered maybe eve 3 to 1.

    When you do actually find some action and if you wait long enough for the 2 people who found you to spread the word then yes you might get your emiontal need for a challenge sated.

    Not very well though.  Probably should check out a medium high server if that is what you want.



     

    And you realize that wanting to be on high population servers is emotipnal as well right. Everything is "emotional" as you choose to define it

     

    Not really.  If you go over again you can separate "emotional" from "obvious advantage".  The only trick is that some things are done out of a sense of emotion are just plain misplaced.

     

    You maybe be on a server because you like the name and made a few friends.  That would be an emotional attachment.  You may have an "emotional" need for action in which case it seems pretty obivous to choose a high population server.

     

    You may believe that your "emotional" need for "challenge" will be sated on a non-full server with no caps.  But if you goto to far down and roll low pop you will be wrong because even if there are a lot more destro that does not mean there are a enough.

     

    So in the end they are simply projecting their belief of some sort of challenge, which is purely emotional.  Because clearly empty RvR zones are not all that challenging.  They can romanticize the belief that they are the underdog all they.  And they can even be truly far behind in the ratio but 100 destro will never cover the zones even if there are only 10 order.

     

    The point being there is no solid obserable advantage to rolling low pop.  The only one that is real and not imaginary or completely arbitrary is queue times.  And there are a number of solid observable objective advantages to going high pop.

     

    And I have already stated how queue are not sufficient to inventivize people to go low population once they realize how little action there is in both PvE and PvP.

     

    If you rolled low pop because you want a challenge you did so for emotional reason.  Because that challenge does not exist.  So if you are still there it is not for some objective reason.



     

    Make it as wordy as you want. You corrected someone for being emotional but by your definition everything is based on emotion.

    On a side note I am curious if you are working on your doctorate in MMOlogy given the amount of writing you have done.

    Maybe you are driven by emotion becasue honestly theres no reason to go on and ona nd on like you do. Methinks you get emotionally charged when people dont by into YOUR "logic"

     

    Emotional is not a pejorative term.  At least not here. 

    The whole point is besides arbitrary reasons there is no advantage to a low pop server and many disadvantages.

    I did not correct someone for being emotional.  I pointed out that there are nothing advantageous to low pop servers and people simply stay on them for arbitary emotion based reasons.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It is simply not reliable.  People will eventually go with whatever side their bread gets buttered on.

     

    Do you really think that in the end these are reliable enough to attaract people to a losing situation?  Because they are not. 

     

    I notice you came up with absolutely no advantages beside the previously mentioned queue times.  Do you actually have any?

     

    Everyone is driven by emotion stop being silly.  This isn't some stupid Star Trek episode.  Without emotions people would never do anything. 

     

    The point is about objective advantages versus emotional feelings.  The objhective advantages will win out.  Not because emotions are "bad" but because the vast majority of people are setup to emotionally favor what works.  The tradeoff of low pop versus high pop does not work.  The ony reason people do not flee them immediate is due to some emotional reason.  Eventually that will get erroed by a different emotion.  Its called frustration.  Man i can't believe I have to spell this out.  You know this is in common usage right?

     

     

  • rafmeisterrafmeister Member Posts: 69

    Sorry did not mean to be rude. Going from a games like EQ1 (pre-POP) and FFXI where leveling to max level can take 10-18 RL months to games like this one or WOW  where you get to max level in a matter of weeks or days if  you really press yourself makes for a very different perspective on things.

  • Omega3Omega3 Member Posts: 398
    Originally posted by rafmeister


    Sorry did not mean to be rude. Going from a games like EQ1 (pre-POP) and FFXI where leveling to max level can take 10-18 RL months to games like this one or WOW  where you get to max level in a matter of weeks or days if  you really press yourself makes for a very different perspective on things.



     

    Took me 2,5 months to get to 50 in EQ, and 1,5 month for 50-60...

    As for WAR, been playing non stop for 4 days and i'm 17.

    My addiction History:
    >> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore
    >> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual
    >> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.

  • Death1942Death1942 Member UncommonPosts: 2,587

    well i played on arguably the lowest population server

    oceanic, Roleplay ----> Lustria

     

    took 30 mins of waiting to get into a scenario (with all 3 queues up).  public quests were a little hard to do and really we only ever saw 1 or 2 others doing it...and this was on Destruction btw.

     

    the game is playable on low pop servers its just a lot slower.

    MMO wish list:

    -Changeable worlds
    -Solid non level based game
    -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads

  • NewhopesNewhopes Member Posts: 458
    Originally posted by Death1942


    well i played on arguably the lowest population server
    oceanic, Roleplay ----> Lustria
     
    took 30 mins of waiting to get into a scenario (with all 3 queues up).  public quests were a little hard to do and really we only ever saw 1 or 2 others doing it...and this was on Destruction btw.
     
    the game is playable on low pop servers its just a lot slower.



     

    Ya its playable but your more or less forced to pve as world pvp is next to non existent.

  • kraidenkraiden Staff WriterMember UncommonPosts: 638

    daoc had "lopsided" population as well. when you get 40 you may be rather thankful for being on a low population server as it will allow you more time to roam and look for a fight as a group/guild rather than alwasy be forced into a 90vs90 keep siege. My server in daoc had 600 people on at primetime, but the highest pop server had 2000.

    publc quest are doable with the right classes up to stage 2 with 2 classes as long as one of them is a healer. the best loot from levels 1-30 is not from PQ's but rather from influence that the PQ's are based on. You can run ANY pq's first stage 4 times and max out your influence.

  • kraidenkraiden Staff WriterMember UncommonPosts: 638

    I want the old system back where you have 100 levels and advances but the progression was as slow as daoc.

  • UrrellesUrrelles Member Posts: 574
    Originally posted by Kyleran


    Is it really this easy to take a keep, that 12 players can actually capture one?  That would have been almost impossible in DAOC, even if the keep was at its lowest setting. (keeps don't have levels in WAR, do they?)
    Hmm.. .disappointing to say the least, I knew WAR was easier, but didn't realize it was that easy.
    As for population, the solution is simple, (although painful), cap the populations on all servers to be no more than a 60/40 ratio, and put the rest of the players into a queue.  They'll either switch sides or quit, but either way, balance will be acheived.
    In a way, i think Mythic is taking a benign approach, they figure if they let the imbalance go long enough, Destro players will reroll on the order side in frustration  thereby solving the problem naturally.  Time will tell whether their plan will work however.

     

    Kyleran, what are you talking about.  I played DAOC all the way up to New Frontiers.  Before New Frontiers, an 8 man team could take down a low level keep within 15 minutes.  A 16 man team can take any level keep if there are no opposing players inside.

    I don't understand this delusion crusade you are on in saying that WAr is easy, but it seems like every other post you make says that, and most of the time it is blowing facts or opinions out of context to support your "easy mode" rants.

    Oh an on a last note, only a certain amount of siege weapons can be present to take a keep and they must be set on special platforms.  So no using 20 catapults to take down a level 1 wall real fast. 

  • SteelroseSteelrose Member UncommonPosts: 215

    Seriously, this game could be called Warhammer 3: The Reign of Chaos.

  • s0fakings0faking Member Posts: 28

    Wow.  Somewhere down the line this topic got into a criticial thinking rhetoric and just went out the window.  My friend and I started on Skull Throne and it was populated as hell.  Had to wait in a queue to loggin for about 15 minutes, but no big deal.  New MMO, it's to be expected.

    Everything went great.  Got my Witch Hunter to ten in about a day or so, and my friend got his Bright Wizard to 10 as well.  Then we found out an old guildie was on Hochland, an open RvR server.  We decided to switch, but from day 1 we saw that the population for order is very low.  Heck with it, we will try it.

    As of right now I am level 17 engineer.  From about 8am or so pst, it's ok for scenarios.  Sometimes it takes 20-40 mins, or sometimes it takes almost 1.5 hours.  But for the last 5 consecutive days, after the hours of 11pm it's a dead-zone.  No scenarios, PQ's are a joke.  Doing Ch.8-9 PQ's with 1-4 people is doable untill the 2nd stage.

    The point of my post is to kind of agree with OP.  The game is great.  I effin get giddy as a school girl when it's prime time.  But this is supposed to be MASSIVE.  We are almost thinking about going back to skull throne, but being 3 lvls from a jetback-helicopter thing is kind of exciting. 

  • GarfunkelGarfunkel Member UncommonPosts: 224

    When people see Order at  Low and Destro at Full, what makes them think it means Destro has filled half the server capacity whilst very little is order?

    If I was doing it I would base it on a ratio system where the bigger the disparity, the lower one side was flagged and the other would potenitally be flagged full. That ratio would be capped at 1.5:1 or 2:1.

    I can't see them letting the server populations upsetting the balance as open world pvp is the core of the game. In that sense it's a good thing.

    Where it's going to backlash on them is with T1, 2 and 3 PQ's and scenarios. Who will play them once 90% of the population is in T4? and they are still flagged as full to stop the new starters coming through the ranks. I'll be interested to see how Mythic deal with that one. Last thing I want to do is keep an alt in each teir as that will get old real fast. and we need to conquor all the zones to get access to the enemy capital.

    _________________________________________
    You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?

  • Necroing my own thread.

     

    Does anyone seriously doubt what I said here 5 days after release at this point in time?

  • BladinBladin Member UncommonPosts: 1,089

    i quit because of these same issues man.  You were spot on in every post.

    image

  • TerranahTerranah Member UncommonPosts: 3,575

    You called it.

  • Good because the release of WAR has started to make me doubt people's sanity.  And I direct that at the haters as well.

     

    Some of the things the haters say are just blatantly wrong.  But then the other side comes in with this crazy denial of obvious problems

     

    Maybe I read too much VNboards.

     

    One thing is for sure AoC didn't need Gaute to hype things many of  the fans would have done it for them.

     

    I think some kind of weird echo chamber developed in the Beta for this game.  Because there are 3 major problems that should have been obvious and should not have made it to release.  And i know that a small number of Closed Beta testers told them this very stuff. Not me I only did Open beta.  

     

    The sad thing is if those things were fixed this would be a quite successful game.   And they really are fixable.  This is not like AoC where past a certain point it really was in need of long term work.

     

    If you mentioned those things the I don't even know what to call them, some of them aren't even fans, came at you with a club.

     

    Its still going on too.  These lotus eater fans are goign to be the death of Mythic if they are not careful.

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