Go to Chaos vs Empire T1 and tell me there is no RvR to be found... People are just sticking to T1 since the characters will be wiped so not surprised you don't find much action in T2. Also most classes cannot solo a champion of equal level unless they really work hard at it. This isn't EQ where killing an even level normal mob is an accomplishment for some classes, very few people actually like systems like that.
I have not had any issues with soloing champion mobs with any class yet and I have played 7. Takes a bit of preperation to do it but it is doable. And there are more of us EQ/UO vets who are looking for a game where the PVE is a bit more challenging than you would think.
I wanted to like this game. I really did. I started with UO way back in the day, and I loved the sandbox feeling to it: the ability to do whatever you want when you want to do it, to build your character any way you please, the wide open world to explore (fully) at your leisure from day 1. EverQuest continued that awesome feeling, though to a lesser extend in some departments, and DAoC lived up to it fine also. And then came a spider that "revolutionized" the industry, not by giving players more options, but rather by taking options away.
That is the legacy of WoW: take away 90% of the content so the remaining 10% can be perfected and made as droning as possible. Grinding became the WoW core philosophy, and almost anything you could possibly do in the game could be focused into one of four simple goals: rep gain, honor gain, experience gain, or raiding progression. I played WoW for awhile, and I enjoyed it for awhile. Azeroth as least maintained the illusion of a sandbox world with a simplified crafting system and a variety of illusory "goals" for players to pursue. But when all the points are tallied in WoW, you realize that those 4 categories I mentioned earlier utterly dominate the game. You cannot possibly, in any way, shape, or form, escape them--there is no way to do new, creative, and/or exciting things. So, in the hope that Warhammer could do one better than WoW, I quit and waited for the open beta.
Wow, am I disappointed. My problems with Warhammer are numerous, so I'll begin laying them out by category:
The PvE Game: Probably my single biggest beef with the way things are right now. PQs are a joke, general PvE is absolutely laughable. Not one single class has any difficulty whatsoever soloing normal class mobs, and most classes can handle champions just fine with some preparation. Heroes obviously present a problem, but it's rare to encounter them, except in PQs. Because of the ease of monster killing, questing literally becomes a chain of "run here, smash these buttons, run back." And PQs are equally as redundant, with each one seeming exactly the same as the last. And because of the way the victory point system is currently structured, PvE counts almost for nothing anyway: the victory point reward for capturing tier objectives HEAVILY outweighs that of completing multiple quests or PQs. So why PvE? It's not a fun alternative to PvP, it's not a fun way to effectively earn victory points, and it's flat out not fun.
Scenarios: While sometimes scenarios can be entertaining, there is no way balancing the combat. Level or class distributions can heavily shift the inherent advantage from one team to another, and the sad fact is that on each racial front, one side does have an inherent class distribution advantage against the other. Even if you do manage to get a fairly even distribution of careers and levels for your scenario, frankly, the scenery gets boring. Since you can only queue for the single scenario for the battlefront you are in, your only Tier 1 option as an elf is to literally do Khane's Embrace over and over and over again, unless you have a friend in a different battlefront who can queue up for you. The inability to queue for other scenarios without huffing it a couple hundred miles across the ocen really puts a damper on things. Also, the queue system, in my opinion, is heavily flawed, oftentimes preventing players of heavily populated realms from joining scenarios at all. The game frankly needs more scenarios and a better way of managing realm populations--otherwise, scenarios should have never been implemented, as they take away from the only other fun thing to do:
Open RvR: While 3/4 of your realm is either hacking it out in scenarios or standing around twiddling their thumbs waiting to get into one, you and your small band of lackeys decide to scour the countryside, searching for some fresh enemy meat. Trouble is, there isn't any. Despite having spent many hours in the Tiers 1 and 2 open RvR areas, I have seen a grand total of 2 people and have effectively killed exactly one. Capturing objectives, too, is something of a joke, since there is no incentive for the enemy to defend them. You can buy renown gear at any keep you control, which means if you simply go out and take a different keep instead of defending the one you currently control, you can just as easily get the stuff you need. Capturing a new keep also almost always awards more renown and exp than defending one you already control, so why the hell should I defend? Why should my enemies defend? And what good is open RvR if the RvR aspect of it -takes away- from the good old PvP?
WHERE'S DA FIGHT?: The chat system is probably the worst suited for what it needs to do that I've seen in recent history. There is no way to warn or be warned about incoming enemy attacks or the location of a nearby group of enemy soldiers. The map indicates ongoing fights, but what if there are none? If a few of my buddies and I are out riding the countryside and spot a dastardly group of our arrogant brethren--but are too vastly outnumbered to engage them--wtf do we do? Hide? Run away? Send a carrier pigeon with a greeting card to beg for mercy? The inability to call for reinforcements is sorely missed, and with it is missed the sense of community created by defending your homeland alongside your brothers. While guild and warband chat can be used to this extent, the viability of this versus intel coming from your entire realm in that area is next to nil. This game doesn't need a better way to find the fight--not really. It needs more interaction between friendly players. Without it, we might as well be playing Planetside, Guild Wars, or, well, Crysis for that matter.
So What?: Nothing you can do in this game--nothing--matters. If you capture your enemy's capital city, the conflict resets. Whoop da whoop. If you reach R40 RR80, you are still a single person with only a very, VERY slightly increased ability to contribute to the overall war effort. There is no overall sense of war effort like there was in DAoC, where capturing your enemy's relic meant the display of a PERMANENT symbol of glory and a realm-wide buff--but only for as long as you could defend those precious objects. In WAR, I wonder why I should care about my enemy's city. Sure, it's big, it's shiny. It would suck for them if we blew it up. But then the thought hits me: wait, no it wouldn't... it's not even all that great for us. I can't see anything at all to accomplish as a realm in this game. And that, for an RvR experience, is a devastatingly crippling blow.
So far, I can't understand why people are so excited about this game. It seems lackluster, at best, continuing with WoW's trend of limiting things you can actually do in an effort to perfect those possible playstyles. Yet, despite Mythic's efforts to focus on the RvR experiene, it seems a bit beyond 12 steps below lackluster to me. There is no iconinc force in the game, nothing to make me care about the war my race is fighting. There is no sense of cooperation between players, no common goal or unifying spirit. The PvE game is laughable, the PvP game is not truly focused on PvP (but rather on "winning," which can theoretically be done without killing a single player), and the epic experience that an RPG is supposed to offer is depressingly absent.
Yes, this game is very bug-free for release; yes, it performs very well. But have any of you stopped to consider why this should be hailed as a "good" game? I'm sad to say it, but I don't think this game will be the one that stands this genre back up on its feet. If anything, this is the straw that pierced the lion's heart: I firmly believe that we may never see a truly solid MMO experience ever again. And the fact that the sentiments expressed above are those of a small minority only push that expectation forward. Sorry guys: I just don't get it.
spoken like a true sand boxer note this part " And there are more of us EQ/UO vets who are looking for a game where the PVE is a bit more challenging than you would think." have you ever noticed how sand boxers like to announce this i am from eq/uo so what.
I wanted to like this game. I really did. I started with UO way back in the day, and I loved the sandbox feeling to it: the ability to do whatever you want when you want to do it, to build your character any way you please, the wide open world to explore (fully) at your leisure from day 1. EverQuest continued that awesome feeling, though to a lesser extend in some departments, and DAoC lived up to it fine also. And then came a spider that "revolutionized" the industry, not by giving players more options, but rather by taking options away. That is the legacy of WoW: take away 90% of the content so the remaining 10% can be perfected and made as droning as possible. Grinding became the WoW core philosophy, and almost anything you could possibly do in the game could be focused into one of four simple goals: rep gain, honor gain, experience gain, or raiding progression. I played WoW for awhile, and I enjoyed it for awhile. Azeroth as least maintained the illusion of a sandbox world with a simplified crafting system and a variety of illusory "goals" for players to pursue. But when all the points are tallied in WoW, you realize that those 4 categories I mentioned earlier utterly dominate the game. You cannot possibly, in any way, shape, or form, escape them--there is no way to do new, creative, and/or exciting things. So, in the hope that Warhammer could do one better than WoW, I quit and waited for the open beta. Wow, am I disappointed. My problems with Warhammer are numerous, so I'll begin laying them out by category: The PvE Game: Probably my single biggest beef with the way things are right now. PQs are a joke, general PvE is absolutely laughable. Not one single class has any difficulty whatsoever soloing normal class mobs, and most classes can handle champions just fine with some preparation. Heroes obviously present a problem, but it's rare to encounter them, except in PQs. Because of the ease of monster killing, questing literally becomes a chain of "run here, smash these buttons, run back." And PQs are equally as redundant, with each one seeming exactly the same as the last. And because of the way the victory point system is currently structured, PvE counts almost for nothing anyway: the victory point reward for capturing tier objectives HEAVILY outweighs that of completing multiple quests or PQs. So why PvE? It's not a fun alternative to PvP, it's not a fun way to effectively earn victory points, and it's flat out not fun. Scenarios: While sometimes scenarios can be entertaining, there is no way balancing the combat. Level or class distributions can heavily shift the inherent advantage from one team to another, and the sad fact is that on each racial front, one side does have an inherent class distribution advantage against the other. Even if you do manage to get a fairly even distribution of careers and levels for your scenario, frankly, the scenery gets boring. Since you can only queue for the single scenario for the battlefront you are in, your only Tier 1 option as an elf is to literally do Khane's Embrace over and over and over again, unless you have a friend in a different battlefront who can queue up for you. The inability to queue for other scenarios without huffing it a couple hundred miles across the ocen really puts a damper on things. Also, the queue system, in my opinion, is heavily flawed, oftentimes preventing players of heavily populated realms from joining scenarios at all. The game frankly needs more scenarios and a better way of managing realm populations--otherwise, scenarios should have never been implemented, as they take away from the only other fun thing to do: Open RvR: While 3/4 of your realm is either hacking it out in scenarios or standing around twiddling their thumbs waiting to get into one, you and your small band of lackeys decide to scour the countryside, searching for some fresh enemy meat. Trouble is, there isn't any. Despite having spent many hours in the Tiers 1 and 2 open RvR areas, I have seen a grand total of 2 people and have effectively killed exactly one. Capturing objectives, too, is something of a joke, since there is no incentive for the enemy to defend them. You can buy renown gear at any keep you control, which means if you simply go out and take a different keep instead of defending the one you currently control, you can just as easily get the stuff you need. Capturing a new keep also almost always awards more renown and exp than defending one you already control, so why the hell should I defend? Why should my enemies defend? And what good is open RvR if the RvR aspect of it -takes away- from the good old PvP? WHERE'S DA FIGHT?: The chat system is probably the worst suited for what it needs to do that I've seen in recent history. There is no way to warn or be warned about incoming enemy attacks or the location of a nearby group of enemy soldiers. The map indicates ongoing fights, but what if there are none? If a few of my buddies and I are out riding the countryside and spot a dastardly group of our arrogant brethren--but are too vastly outnumbered to engage them--wtf do we do? Hide? Run away? Send a carrier pigeon with a greeting card to beg for mercy? The inability to call for reinforcements is sorely missed, and with it is missed the sense of community created by defending your homeland alongside your brothers. While guild and warband chat can be used to this extent, the viability of this versus intel coming from your entire realm in that area is next to nil. This game doesn't need a better way to find the fight--not really. It needs more interaction between friendly players. Without it, we might as well be playing Planetside, Guild Wars, or, well, Crysis for that matter. So What?: Nothing you can do in this game--nothing--matters. If you capture your enemy's capital city, the conflict resets. Whoop da whoop. If you reach R40 RR80, you are still a single person with only a very, VERY slightly increased ability to contribute to the overall war effort. There is no overall sense of war effort like there was in DAoC, where capturing your enemy's relic meant the display of a PERMANENT symbol of glory and a realm-wide buff--but only for as long as you could defend those precious objects. In WAR, I wonder why I should care about my enemy's city. Sure, it's big, it's shiny. It would suck for them if we blew it up. But then the thought hits me: wait, no it wouldn't... it's not even all that great for us. I can't see anything at all to accomplish as a realm in this game. And that, for an RvR experience, is a devastatingly crippling blow. So far, I can't understand why people are so excited about this game. It seems lackluster, at best, continuing with WoW's trend of limiting things you can actually do in an effort to perfect those possible playstyles. Yet, despite Mythic's efforts to focus on the RvR experiene, it seems a bit beyond 12 steps below lackluster to me. There is no iconinc force in the game, nothing to make me care about the war my race is fighting. There is no sense of cooperation between players, no common goal or unifying spirit. The PvE game is laughable, the PvP game is not truly focused on PvP (but rather on "winning," which can theoretically be done without killing a single player), and the epic experience that an RPG is supposed to offer is depressingly absent. Yes, this game is very bug-free for release; yes, it performs very well. But have any of you stopped to consider why this should be hailed as a "good" game? I'm sad to say it, but I don't think this game will be the one that stands this genre back up on its feet. If anything, this is the straw that pierced the lion's heart: I firmly believe that we may never see a truly solid MMO experience ever again. And the fact that the sentiments expressed above are those of a small minority only push that expectation forward. Sorry guys: I just don't get it.
While I do understand that you want a sandbox and this isnt a good fit, some of your other info shows you didnt spend very much time at all.
PQ's in the beta right now are typically very easy, but here is waht you can do to make it fun - Do a PQ with only a few ppl, between 3 players to a full group. Makes them ALOT more fun! It's actually a challenge where you have to work together and work against the clock. Also, it's very early so dont expect challenge. From what I hear the late game PQ's are much, much harder then these are. So that sounds like they could be fun. Seriously tho, do one in the early morning if u can with a small group. Makes them alot better.
About scenarios, go by the flight master. Queue for one, fly to next zone, queue, repeat. Lets u sign up for more
Open-RvR? Go to the human zone. For some reason the elf and greenskin is nearly empty.... the human one ALWAYS has action! Even the middle of the night theres least 2 groups aruond usuallly, way more at peak time.
The friendly player interaction comments I'm not sure about. I invite everyone I see when doing RvR and they usually accept, as long as u chat I found some good interaction. I look forward to guilds for when you work with them on sieges, even if u work with allied guilds as well. Guild interaction defending and attacking keeps should fit what your looking for here, no?
I think that would fix most the things in your last paragraph as well, especially having a reason to fight, when you claim a keep and generate resources from it, and with the end-game where if you take over the enemy capital, you unlock the instance that contains the best gear in game.
Yes, at first it doesnt seem amazing when you first play. Thats because they sticked to peoples comfort zone and give combat similar to WoW. Now that I've played for almost a week, I like the fact that I could instantly get in to PvP any time of day, level and get gear thru PvP, I love never having to search for groups, the variety of world PvP and scenarios is good to mix it up, and I've seen how working with a well coordinated team could greatly enhance how good you and your realm are doing. After the PQ's I did all morning, all with under a full group, I can honestly say I really enjoy the PQ system. It gives the feeling of an "outdoor instance", except no waiting time or waiting for groups. So I would say while the combat doesnt feel new and amazing, the implementation is what makes the game fun.
Now the late game is a mystery to me, but as long as they ramp up the difficulty, and as long as the keep raids and guild interaction goes well, it should definately be worth some play time.
I hope some of my post actually helps you find some of the more enjoyable points of the game
I have not had any issues with soloing champion mobs with any class yet and I have played 7. Takes a bit of preperation to do it but it is doable. And there are more of us EQ/UO vets who are looking for a game where the PVE is a bit more challenging than you would think.
Sorry I'm not buying it and not every champion mob is created equally. The other day on my Archmage in the CvE PQ where you pick up the tablets off the ground I got 2 hit by a champion mob, died in under 4 seconds.
On my Marauder I remember fighting a champion mob in the crypts in chapter 2 of choas and that thing killed me in about 4 hits. There is no way in heck that class can solo it. Sure there are some champion mobs that some classes can kill but it is not anywhere near the point where champion mobs are an easy kill for most classes.
I'd like more challenging PvE don't get me wrong but no the majority of players do not want it, especially while leveling up. What I want and what the reality is are not the same and the designers of gamers will appeal to the reality.
If anything, this is the straw that pierced the lion's heart: I firmly believe that we may never see a truly solid MMO experience ever again.
Based on the OPs definitions of what a 'solid' MMO experience is, all I can say is GOOD RIDDANCE to those games.
MMORPGs are finally evolving after a decade of stagnation using tedious timesink UO mechanics. Some might complain about the 'good old days' back when MMORPGS were a niche market that had pathetic sales compared to other genres like RTS, FPS and RPGs. MMORPGs have finally entered the real gaming market and it's long past time.
There will always those who refuse to see the need for change and fight against it. Fortunately those get to go the way of the dinosaurs.
Were you doing open RvR on a oceanic server? Or did you bullrush to t2 before others could catch you? On caledor there was at least 25 people on each side fighting for the keep in toll country. In the RvR zone in nordland its always active going back forth very easily.
I enjoy doing the same scenarios over and over again. Each day each side had new tactics to try and during the day they would be worked out by the other team. During the first 2 days or so me and the people from my guild went straight for barracks in empire t1. After a day or so of that a group of desto was always ran up the middle, so we had to fight them or hide and wait.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
I wanted to like this game. I really did. I started with UO way back in the day, and I loved the sandbox feeling to it: the ability to do whatever you want when you want to do it, to build your character any way you please, the wide open world to explore (fully) at your leisure from day 1. EverQuest continued that awesome feeling, though to a lesser extend in some departments, and DAoC lived up to it fine also. And then came a spider that "revolutionized" the industry, not by giving players more options, but rather by taking options away. That is the legacy of WoW: take away 90% of the content so the remaining 10% can be perfected and made as droning as possible. Grinding became the WoW core philosophy, and almost anything you could possibly do in the game could be focused into one of four simple goals: rep gain, honor gain, experience gain, or raiding progression. I played WoW for awhile, and I enjoyed it for awhile. Azeroth as least maintained the illusion of a sandbox world with a simplified crafting system and a variety of illusory "goals" for players to pursue. But when all the points are tallied in WoW, you realize that those 4 categories I mentioned earlier utterly dominate the game. You cannot possibly, in any way, shape, or form, escape them--there is no way to do new, creative, and/or exciting things. So, in the hope that Warhammer could do one better than WoW, I quit and waited for the open beta. Wow, am I disappointed. My problems with Warhammer are numerous, so I'll begin laying them out by category: The PvE Game: Probably my single biggest beef with the way things are right now. PQs are a joke, general PvE is absolutely laughable. Not one single class has any difficulty whatsoever soloing normal class mobs, and most classes can handle champions just fine with some preparation. Heroes obviously present a problem, but it's rare to encounter them, except in PQs. Because of the ease of monster killing, questing literally becomes a chain of "run here, smash these buttons, run back." And PQs are equally as redundant, with each one seeming exactly the same as the last. And because of the way the victory point system is currently structured, PvE counts almost for nothing anyway: the victory point reward for capturing tier objectives HEAVILY outweighs that of completing multiple quests or PQs. So why PvE? It's not a fun alternative to PvP, it's not a fun way to effectively earn victory points, and it's flat out not fun. Scenarios: While sometimes scenarios can be entertaining, there is no way balancing the combat. Level or class distributions can heavily shift the inherent advantage from one team to another, and the sad fact is that on each racial front, one side does have an inherent class distribution advantage against the other. Even if you do manage to get a fairly even distribution of careers and levels for your scenario, frankly, the scenery gets boring. Since you can only queue for the single scenario for the battlefront you are in, your only Tier 1 option as an elf is to literally do Khane's Embrace over and over and over again, unless you have a friend in a different battlefront who can queue up for you. The inability to queue for other scenarios without huffing it a couple hundred miles across the ocen really puts a damper on things. Also, the queue system, in my opinion, is heavily flawed, oftentimes preventing players of heavily populated realms from joining scenarios at all. The game frankly needs more scenarios and a better way of managing realm populations--otherwise, scenarios should have never been implemented, as they take away from the only other fun thing to do: Open RvR: While 3/4 of your realm is either hacking it out in scenarios or standing around twiddling their thumbs waiting to get into one, you and your small band of lackeys decide to scour the countryside, searching for some fresh enemy meat. Trouble is, there isn't any. Despite having spent many hours in the Tiers 1 and 2 open RvR areas, I have seen a grand total of 2 people and have effectively killed exactly one. Capturing objectives, too, is something of a joke, since there is no incentive for the enemy to defend them. You can buy renown gear at any keep you control, which means if you simply go out and take a different keep instead of defending the one you currently control, you can just as easily get the stuff you need. Capturing a new keep also almost always awards more renown and exp than defending one you already control, so why the hell should I defend? Why should my enemies defend? And what good is open RvR if the RvR aspect of it -takes away- from the good old PvP? WHERE'S DA FIGHT?: The chat system is probably the worst suited for what it needs to do that I've seen in recent history. There is no way to warn or be warned about incoming enemy attacks or the location of a nearby group of enemy soldiers. The map indicates ongoing fights, but what if there are none? If a few of my buddies and I are out riding the countryside and spot a dastardly group of our arrogant brethren--but are too vastly outnumbered to engage them--wtf do we do? Hide? Run away? Send a carrier pigeon with a greeting card to beg for mercy? The inability to call for reinforcements is sorely missed, and with it is missed the sense of community created by defending your homeland alongside your brothers. While guild and warband chat can be used to this extent, the viability of this versus intel coming from your entire realm in that area is next to nil. This game doesn't need a better way to find the fight--not really. It needs more interaction between friendly players. Without it, we might as well be playing Planetside, Guild Wars, or, well, Crysis for that matter. So What?: Nothing you can do in this game--nothing--matters. If you capture your enemy's capital city, the conflict resets. Whoop da whoop. If you reach R40 RR80, you are still a single person with only a very, VERY slightly increased ability to contribute to the overall war effort. There is no overall sense of war effort like there was in DAoC, where capturing your enemy's relic meant the display of a PERMANENT symbol of glory and a realm-wide buff--but only for as long as you could defend those precious objects. In WAR, I wonder why I should care about my enemy's city. Sure, it's big, it's shiny. It would suck for them if we blew it up. But then the thought hits me: wait, no it wouldn't... it's not even all that great for us. I can't see anything at all to accomplish as a realm in this game. And that, for an RvR experience, is a devastatingly crippling blow. So far, I can't understand why people are so excited about this game. It seems lackluster, at best, continuing with WoW's trend of limiting things you can actually do in an effort to perfect those possible playstyles. Yet, despite Mythic's efforts to focus on the RvR experiene, it seems a bit beyond 12 steps below lackluster to me. There is no iconinc force in the game, nothing to make me care about the war my race is fighting. There is no sense of cooperation between players, no common goal or unifying spirit. The PvE game is laughable, the PvP game is not truly focused on PvP (but rather on "winning," which can theoretically be done without killing a single player), and the epic experience that an RPG is supposed to offer is depressingly absent. Yes, this game is very bug-free for release; yes, it performs very well. But have any of you stopped to consider why this should be hailed as a "good" game? I'm sad to say it, but I don't think this game will be the one that stands this genre back up on its feet. If anything, this is the straw that pierced the lion's heart: I firmly believe that we may never see a truly solid MMO experience ever again. And the fact that the sentiments expressed above are those of a small minority only push that expectation forward. Sorry guys: I just don't get it.
If you really have experiance you should have realistic expectations, I want the same things you seem to want but I do not expect those things to be made atm, I still have hopes on seeing such game in about 3/5 years from now, seeing how tech is evolving in HOW it can be incorperated into MMORPG's, and more important is I hope that the general public will wake up and see HOW MUCH more MMORPG could be.
For now or atleast those with realistic views and understanding HOW games are made these day's can do 2 things, they either enjoy the game or move to something else to enjoy, molding a game to your very own desire's has not done any game any good.
I enjoyed WAR for the moments I spend with it, i do not see it as a MMORPG but do see it as a entertaining GAME and must say I ardly believe those who speak about experiance as they do show lack of experiance or atleast lack of understanding WHY certain games are the way they are right now.
Get a realistic sense of this genre will make this genre go forward, but aslong we keep having people with unrealistic expectations we will not see this genre improve.
Keep in mind as a experianced MMORPG player YOU NEVER TRY HARD TO LIKE A GAME, only people new to this genre will in some cases TRY HARD.
As stupid as it may sound; the game is as linear as Guildwars, I think that's it's problem. Mind you, for a lot of people this is not a problem but for some, the ones who are looking for a believable WORLD, it's extremely annoying and gamebreaking.
You dont have to see how this is a good game for me. Just see how this game is not a good game for you and move on. The reason why there are so many mmo's out there is so that you pick the one that fits you the most. You don't like certain features of the game? Fine, you have your reasons. I love most of the features this game has to offer, I have my reasons. And I won't try to convince you on how cool I think the features are, but please respect people that enjoy the game.
No, you don't understand. I really want someone to explain to me what makes this a good game. I don't see it, but there are so many people who like it, there must be a reason, right? Maybe I give people too much credit.
I don't understand. Why do you need people to tell you why a game is good or bad. Its subjective. It cannot be explained. It can only be felt.
People had pointed out features of WAR they love, you dismissed them, and come back asking for more "explanation". No that is no explanation seeking. That is pure trolling.
The Mr good guy has politely told you that there is nothing to explain. In other word, he is telling you to bug off and shut up. If you like it play it. If you do not like it, go away.
No you do not give people too much credit, you have yet to understand what is respect. We have given you too much credit in trying to talk to you.
Originally posted by memoir Time to play... and than let's do the talking. let's begin with the control of your avatar in the free open world. Are you the avatar or do you play WITH it? then do some PVE stuff with the NPC's AI Have a nice PQ you stumble upon and that's being reset every 15 minutes and finally battle in the always speechless uncoordinated scenarios with the staggered PvP gear on. It's a publicity brochure you are talking of. I am talking about gameplay.
- Yes the PvE NPC challenge could be better - Public quests - that was fun. I dont care that it will reset, no-one is holding a gun to my head to make me play it - Scenarios - no one holds a gun to your head and makes you go in solo and get whatever pick up group is going. But as thats the norm at the moment - grab 5 friends, get some voice comm, go kick butt.
I don't understand. Why do you need people to tell you why a game is good or bad. Its subjective. It cannot be explained. It can only be felt.
People had pointed out features of WAR they love, you dismissed them, and come back asking for more "explanation". No that is no explanation seeking. That is pure trolling. The Mr good guy has politely told you that there is nothing to explain. In other word, he is telling you to bug off and shut up. If you like it play it. If you do not like it, go away. No you do not give people too much credit, you have yet to understand what is respect. We have given you too much credit in trying to talk to you.
Wow, someone is trying to have a proper discussion and gets told off for... discussing stuff on a forum. Stop trying to act like an e-thug. What the OP is on about is NOT trolling, you just fail to grasp what he means, and tbh I DO understand what he means. I'll try to explain it in a way that even you might understand it.
Lots of people have no trouble with being told what to do; Go here, drink Coca-cola, watch this, eat this, you gotta have a BMW, kill this, you gotta be 70, have S4 gear. They like the grind and threadmill because it's easy, doesn't take any effort. They 're just a big flock of consumers, "mindless cattle" could describe it. They might not even realize it and when told start shouting in anger and feined outrage, but the majority of people are just that; cattle, it's a biological/evolution thing.
When playing games these people are happy with being confined since that essentially means they're being told what to do, and how to do it. Game made goals, easily understandable goals and for the love of anything holy, lets not make it too complicated or needing effort and braincells. Easy does it, simple gameplay.
Some people are different, they want many options and if at all possible there should be some bad options in there as well, since that means that putting in effort gets rewarded. They don't want to be told where to go and they'll see a cage-like construction from miles away. It may be a golden cage but a cage nonetheless. These people want to make up their own minds, be able to explore and NOT follow the beaten to death path, either because it's the best way to do it or (even worse) because the game dictates them.
To them having choices means being able to grow as a character, and essentially "feel" to be in that make believe world. They want to have options, not directions. DAoC catered for that with HUGE landmasses, different specs where your decisions meant something (before respec stones). They want to travel around and get a feeling for the huge world, be able to roam freely and being challenged. Since then MMO's have watered down, lost risk and the option of making bad choices. Add to that the fact that these days everything is found on the net on quests, skills and all that. Again, people not wanting to put in thought but rather follow someone else's dumbed down cookie cutter ideas.
WAR just continues the "idiot proof gameplay" trend. It's very simple, very linear and very much a cage. THAT is the problem, it has nothing to do with the classes or game mechanics as such. It's the fact that, while this is an MMO, he has to room to make his own choices, not really.
There is only one MMO currently that caters for us type of players, and that's EVE-online. And even that one gets bogged down by the sheer amount of non-effort mindless PVE jokers.
These "Oh, I really wanted to like this game" threads are getting old. All this "antimarketing" of every new release is bullshit. Its in every single forum you look in. I'm starting to think that 80%+ of MMORPG.com are viral marketers who do nothing but crap on every other game besides the one their being paid by. They should make a "Whiney bitch" forum for every game so that useful and interesting posts can be seen in general. I'd much rather discuss games than why every little snot-nosed, self-important whiner finds this or that game inferior or beneath them. Piss off.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Wow, someone is trying to have a proper discussion and gets told off for... discussing stuff on a forum. Stop trying to act like an e-thug. What the OP is on about is NOT trolling, you just fail to grasp what he means, and tbh I DO understand what he means. I'll try to explain it in a way that even you might understand it.
To be fair to the poster that made you write that response the OP wanted the people that likes the game prove to him why they like it - that is a pretty derogative way of asking a question. Discussions are always good though
I find this thread funny since it brings two completely different crowds together:
- Players that want a sand box like game (WAR is not a sand-box game - as Sora said EVE is the only game that to some extent right now satisfy that need)
- Players that want WAR to be bad because they love WoW (much more difficult discussion about pros, cons and personal taste in a ferocious mix).
The sand-box argument is rock solid - WAR is not a sand-box. It is really as simple as that. However, those that want a true sand-box will be dissatisfied for a long period of time - the market for people that currently really wants a sand-box is stupidly small.
WoW vs WAR argument is harder. My own personal take is as follows (I like WAR and will play it):
- WoW has better raid PvE content and is more polished in the click->action->animation department. WAR has better casual PvE content, better and richer PvP content and better graphics. WAR has great polish for being in Open Beta but obviously less than WoW and EvE that have been out for some time. For some people this polish is more worth than the current strengths of the WAR offering, for others (like myself) it is not.
As to the specifics of the OP:
- I always get suspicious of a post that mixes high and low, and that is posted across multiple forums at the same time. If you wanted a sand-box, why did you even test and review WAR? There is not a simple fact anywhere that says WAR is a sand-box. Then you comment what is obviously T1 (the 'learn-the-game zone') and extrapolate that to all other tiers and the end-game which does not make sense. I could summarize your review into 'PvE is too simple and linear in T1 and at least I had problems finding other people to RvR with - and when I RvRed it was silly because it was unbalanced'.
And your last argument - that the RvR was unbalanced amuses me. You want a sand-box game but complain that RvR is so free that unbalanced teams in terms of composition and rank can fight battles? So suddenly you want less sand-box? <scratches head>
Please modify your post topic to plainly "I fail".
You sound like a whiney kid man, want a lolly? So you cant find anyone to bash up? Wait until the game actually goes live on the 18th when the majority of the hype community is in the game. I also saw you dislike grinding, so why are you complaining that the kills are too easy? Isn't that what you wanted? Neway seeing as your post has no point i wont stay too long.
Personally, I had hoped it to be DaoC 2, I know that's a bit naive, even more since memories tend to forget the bad sides and emphasise the cool sides, but still. That's what I hoped for.
To a point where I closed by WOW account and my 3 EVE accounts, anticipating WAR beta and eventually the game itself. I have it pre ordered and at some point I'm sure I'll play it for a bit, but it won't be THE MMO to hold me for a longer period of time.
It's a common theme in this forum. Several accounts seem to have been created for no other purpose than flaming WAR. It's hard, but the best thing to do is ignore EVERYONE'S opinion on a game's worth and try it yourself. Never trust anyone else's motivations, especially on internet forums.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Wow, someone is trying to have a proper discussion and gets told off for... discussing stuff on a forum. Stop trying to act like an e-thug. What the OP is on about is NOT trolling, you just fail to grasp what he means, and tbh I DO understand what he means. I'll try to explain it in a way that even you might understand it.
To be fair to the poster that made you write that response the OP wanted the people that likes the game prove to him why they like it - that is a pretty derogative way of asking a question. Discussions are always good though
I find this thread funny since it brings two completely different crowds together:
- Players that want a sand box like game (WAR is not a sand-box game - as Sora said EVE is the only game that to some extent right now satisfy that need)
- Players that want WAR to be bad because they love WoW (much more difficult discussion about pros, cons and personal taste in a ferocious mix).
The sand-box argument is rock solid - WAR is not a sand-box. It is really as simple as that. However, those that want a true sand-box will be dissatisfied for a long period of time - the market for people that currently really wants a sand-box is stupidly small.
WoW vs WAR argument is harder. My own personal take is as follows (I like WAR and will play it):
- WoW has better raid PvE content and is more polished in the click->action->animation department. WAR has better casual PvE content, better and richer PvP content and better graphics. WAR has great polish for being in Open Beta but obviously less than WoW and EvE that have been out for some time. For some people this polish is more worth than the current strengths of the WAR offering, for others (like myself) it is not.
As to the specifics of the OP:
- I always get suspicious of a post that mixes high and low, and that is posted across multiple forums at the same time. If you wanted a sand-box, why did you even test and review WAR? There is not a simple fact anywhere that says WAR is a sand-box. Then you comment what is obviously T1 (the 'learn-the-game zone') and extrapolate that to all other tiers and the end-game which does not make sense. I could summarize your review into 'PvE is too simple and linear in T1 and at least I had problems finding other people to RvR with - and when I RvRed it was silly because it was unbalanced'.
And your last argument - that the RvR was unbalanced amuses me. You want a sand-box game but complain that RvR is so free that unbalanced teams in terms of composition and rank can fight battles? So suddenly you want less sand-box? <scratches head>
I'm not sure how asking someone to address the specific issues in my post is derogative, since those issues are clearly big ones. I didn't mean it to be derogative, anyway--simply to try to dig up some information that may be very deeply buried, since relatively few people have actually experience tier 4. I'm only presenting arguments from a sort of devil's advocate perspective, though I really do believe my position applies. I can't stomach bowing down and praising a game simply because there's "nothing better" available.
1. I want a sandbox, but I can also have fun playing a linear game. There does come a point, though, where "linear" becomes more like "storybook." I don't need a game with limitless things to do. It's just that there isn't enough in WAR--but the true kicker, to me, is that the things that it has chosen to do, in my opinion, are not improvements on how those things have been done in the past. (That's a pretty audacious statement, I know, but I've explained why I think this pretty in-deptch throughout the thread.) And if you think that summary completely represents my review, well, I think you only read part of my OP, let alone the rest of the thread (which I can understand--it's long).
2. You can't mix elements of a sandbox into a linear game. The game is either a sandbox or it is linear--it can't have pieces of both. Therefore, if you choose to do a linear game with fights facilitiated the way that they are in WAR, there should be a mechanism for making those fights fair. Try having 8 Witch Elfs and 4 DoKs versus 3 Swordmasters, 4 Archmages, 4 Shadow Warriors, and 1 White Lion. It's really depressing how badly the disadvantaged team gets steamrolled--as in, there is literally no contest.
it is not a sandbox, if you want a sandbox, play ryzom, that is a great sandbox
So far WAR has not dissapointed me, pve is a bit easy atm, altho I had some tough encounters as well.
Public Quests are fun.
Havent done much RvR yet, but without a fixed community I don't see RvR getting to its full potential. Open Beta testers are just messing around on different servers and with different chars. Realm Pride still has to kick in on live, once people are settled.
Greetz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I wanted to like this game. I really did. I started with UO way back in the day, and I loved the sandbox feeling to it: the ability to do whatever you want when you want to do it, to build your character any way you please, the wide open world to explore (fully) at your leisure from day 1. EverQuest continued that awesome feeling, though to a lesser extend in some departments, and DAoC lived up to it fine also. And then came a spider that "revolutionized" the industry, not by giving players more options, but rather by taking options away. That is the legacy of WoW: take away 90% of the content so the remaining 10% can be perfected and made as droning as possible. Grinding became the WoW core philosophy, and almost anything you could possibly do in the game could be focused into one of four simple goals: rep gain, honor gain, experience gain, or raiding progression. I played WoW for awhile, and I enjoyed it for awhile. Azeroth as least maintained the illusion of a sandbox world with a simplified crafting system and a variety of illusory "goals" for players to pursue. But when all the points are tallied in WoW, you realize that those 4 categories I mentioned earlier utterly dominate the game. You cannot possibly, in any way, shape, or form, escape them--there is no way to do new, creative, and/or exciting things. So, in the hope that Warhammer could do one better than WoW, I quit and waited for the open beta. Wow, am I disappointed. My problems with Warhammer are numerous, so I'll begin laying them out by category: The PvE Game: Probably my single biggest beef with the way things are right now. PQs are a joke, general PvE is absolutely laughable. Not one single class has any difficulty whatsoever soloing normal class mobs, and most classes can handle champions just fine with some preparation. Heroes obviously present a problem, but it's rare to encounter them, except in PQs. Because of the ease of monster killing, questing literally becomes a chain of "run here, smash these buttons, run back." And PQs are equally as redundant, with each one seeming exactly the same as the last. And because of the way the victory point system is currently structured, PvE counts almost for nothing anyway: the victory point reward for capturing tier objectives HEAVILY outweighs that of completing multiple quests or PQs. So why PvE? It's not a fun alternative to PvP, it's not a fun way to effectively earn victory points, and it's flat out not fun. Scenarios: While sometimes scenarios can be entertaining, there is no way balancing the combat. Level or class distributions can heavily shift the inherent advantage from one team to another, and the sad fact is that on each racial front, one side does have an inherent class distribution advantage against the other. Even if you do manage to get a fairly even distribution of careers and levels for your scenario, frankly, the scenery gets boring. Since you can only queue for the single scenario for the battlefront you are in, your only Tier 1 option as an elf is to literally do Khane's Embrace over and over and over again, unless you have a friend in a different battlefront who can queue up for you. The inability to queue for other scenarios without huffing it a couple hundred miles across the ocen really puts a damper on things. Also, the queue system, in my opinion, is heavily flawed, oftentimes preventing players of heavily populated realms from joining scenarios at all. The game frankly needs more scenarios and a better way of managing realm populations--otherwise, scenarios should have never been implemented, as they take away from the only other fun thing to do: Open RvR: While 3/4 of your realm is either hacking it out in scenarios or standing around twiddling their thumbs waiting to get into one, you and your small band of lackeys decide to scour the countryside, searching for some fresh enemy meat. Trouble is, there isn't any. Despite having spent many hours in the Tiers 1 and 2 open RvR areas, I have seen a grand total of 2 people and have effectively killed exactly one. Capturing objectives, too, is something of a joke, since there is no incentive for the enemy to defend them. You can buy renown gear at any keep you control, which means if you simply go out and take a different keep instead of defending the one you currently control, you can just as easily get the stuff you need. Capturing a new keep also almost always awards more renown and exp than defending one you already control, so why the hell should I defend? Why should my enemies defend? And what good is open RvR if the RvR aspect of it -takes away- from the good old PvP? WHERE'S DA FIGHT?: The chat system is probably the worst suited for what it needs to do that I've seen in recent history. There is no way to warn or be warned about incoming enemy attacks or the location of a nearby group of enemy soldiers. The map indicates ongoing fights, but what if there are none? If a few of my buddies and I are out riding the countryside and spot a dastardly group of our arrogant brethren--but are too vastly outnumbered to engage them--wtf do we do? Hide? Run away? Send a carrier pigeon with a greeting card to beg for mercy? The inability to call for reinforcements is sorely missed, and with it is missed the sense of community created by defending your homeland alongside your brothers. While guild and warband chat can be used to this extent, the viability of this versus intel coming from your entire realm in that area is next to nil. This game doesn't need a better way to find the fight--not really. It needs more interaction between friendly players. Without it, we might as well be playing Planetside, Guild Wars, or, well, Crysis for that matter. So What?: Nothing you can do in this game--nothing--matters. If you capture your enemy's capital city, the conflict resets. Whoop da whoop. If you reach R40 RR80, you are still a single person with only a very, VERY slightly increased ability to contribute to the overall war effort. There is no overall sense of war effort like there was in DAoC, where capturing your enemy's relic meant the display of a PERMANENT symbol of glory and a realm-wide buff--but only for as long as you could defend those precious objects. In WAR, I wonder why I should care about my enemy's city. Sure, it's big, it's shiny. It would suck for them if we blew it up. But then the thought hits me: wait, no it wouldn't... it's not even all that great for us. I can't see anything at all to accomplish as a realm in this game. And that, for an RvR experience, is a devastatingly crippling blow. So far, I can't understand why people are so excited about this game. It seems lackluster, at best, continuing with WoW's trend of limiting things you can actually do in an effort to perfect those possible playstyles. Yet, despite Mythic's efforts to focus on the RvR experiene, it seems a bit beyond 12 steps below lackluster to me. There is no iconinc force in the game, nothing to make me care about the war my race is fighting. There is no sense of cooperation between players, no common goal or unifying spirit. The PvE game is laughable, the PvP game is not truly focused on PvP (but rather on "winning," which can theoretically be done without killing a single player), and the epic experience that an RPG is supposed to offer is depressingly absent. Yes, this game is very bug-free for release; yes, it performs very well. But have any of you stopped to consider why this should be hailed as a "good" game? I'm sad to say it, but I don't think this game will be the one that stands this genre back up on its feet. If anything, this is the straw that pierced the lion's heart: I firmly believe that we may never see a truly solid MMO experience ever again. And the fact that the sentiments expressed above are those of a small minority only push that expectation forward. Sorry guys: I just don't get it.
You forgot to mention the almost non existant Crafting System.
I could not agree more. Dead on. As is, Warhammer should remove leveling completely-- Hell --Make a steam game, because if this is what mmorpgs have to offer.. Then this genre is lacking. What is our hope now? Aion-- Doubtful. Darkfall -- Very doubtful.. Might be time to reroll for the next 3-5 years.. Oh how the mmorpg industry has changed... Am I am sandbox lover? Of course, to me thats what mmorpgs are-- Depth with fun gameplay.. now a days get in line.. Do this.. Then this.. than that... and this.. Repeat this.. all the while having little to no fun factor. Do not compare this game to DAOC.. I refuse to drink this koolaid.... Because its far to watered down.
Lol every RL friend thats played DAOC loves WAR so much more.
But that explains it. Your a sanbox fanboi. Guess were your sanbox is? It was in your backyard after you grew too old to play in it so it was taken out.
Get it? Sandbox is of the past and is gone for many reasons. Do i know them? No but devs do.
Devs don't. Publishers do. Linear games are cheaper to produce and simpler for the idiot legions of the world to understand.
Well, your post was the first lucid perspective from someone who doesn't enjoy the game. Unfortunately, you had to taint it with this comment. It's just another example of the arrogance and drama from the elitist, sandbox, skill-based MMORPG crowd. And yes, when you call people idiots when they don't seem to understand why the games you like are inherently better than their's, it's being an elitist.
I fail to understand why you and your crowd don't understand why there can't be good games that take different paths to being fun and successful.
AC was my first MMORPG and I loved it. It was sandbox, skill-based and hardcore by today's standards. But I like WoW and many other games that don't fit that mold.
Wanted to add concerning the "meaningless RvR". If you look closely, fighting over anything anywhere in any respect is pretty much pointless.
I don't want to expand this into real life (where it fits just as well, it doesn't matter if we all die in 5 minutes or live to start the next war) but even if reduced to games:
If you build up a huge alliance like BoB in EvE and conquer half the universe with it, it doesn't matter, the alliance will eventually perish, you can claim the whole universe and one sunshiny day the game will close and all will go to ashes, like everything we do and everything everybody ever did anywhere in the world turned to meaningless, unremembered ashes... but well, I said I wouldn't punch this into the metaphysics corner, so yea... RvR is pretty much pointless in ANY game...
Comments
I have not had any issues with soloing champion mobs with any class yet and I have played 7. Takes a bit of preperation to do it but it is doable. And there are more of us EQ/UO vets who are looking for a game where the PVE is a bit more challenging than you would think.
To the op cry baby sand boxer looks like u made same post on warhammer alliance.
www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php
I wanted to like this game. I really did. I started with UO way back in the day, and I loved the sandbox feeling to it: the ability to do whatever you want when you want to do it, to build your character any way you please, the wide open world to explore (fully) at your leisure from day 1. EverQuest continued that awesome feeling, though to a lesser extend in some departments, and DAoC lived up to it fine also. And then came a spider that "revolutionized" the industry, not by giving players more options, but rather by taking options away.
That is the legacy of WoW: take away 90% of the content so the remaining 10% can be perfected and made as droning as possible. Grinding became the WoW core philosophy, and almost anything you could possibly do in the game could be focused into one of four simple goals: rep gain, honor gain, experience gain, or raiding progression. I played WoW for awhile, and I enjoyed it for awhile. Azeroth as least maintained the illusion of a sandbox world with a simplified crafting system and a variety of illusory "goals" for players to pursue. But when all the points are tallied in WoW, you realize that those 4 categories I mentioned earlier utterly dominate the game. You cannot possibly, in any way, shape, or form, escape them--there is no way to do new, creative, and/or exciting things. So, in the hope that Warhammer could do one better than WoW, I quit and waited for the open beta.
Wow, am I disappointed. My problems with Warhammer are numerous, so I'll begin laying them out by category:
The PvE Game: Probably my single biggest beef with the way things are right now. PQs are a joke, general PvE is absolutely laughable. Not one single class has any difficulty whatsoever soloing normal class mobs, and most classes can handle champions just fine with some preparation. Heroes obviously present a problem, but it's rare to encounter them, except in PQs. Because of the ease of monster killing, questing literally becomes a chain of "run here, smash these buttons, run back." And PQs are equally as redundant, with each one seeming exactly the same as the last. And because of the way the victory point system is currently structured, PvE counts almost for nothing anyway: the victory point reward for capturing tier objectives HEAVILY outweighs that of completing multiple quests or PQs. So why PvE? It's not a fun alternative to PvP, it's not a fun way to effectively earn victory points, and it's flat out not fun.
Scenarios: While sometimes scenarios can be entertaining, there is no way balancing the combat. Level or class distributions can heavily shift the inherent advantage from one team to another, and the sad fact is that on each racial front, one side does have an inherent class distribution advantage against the other. Even if you do manage to get a fairly even distribution of careers and levels for your scenario, frankly, the scenery gets boring. Since you can only queue for the single scenario for the battlefront you are in, your only Tier 1 option as an elf is to literally do Khane's Embrace over and over and over again, unless you have a friend in a different battlefront who can queue up for you. The inability to queue for other scenarios without huffing it a couple hundred miles across the ocen really puts a damper on things. Also, the queue system, in my opinion, is heavily flawed, oftentimes preventing players of heavily populated realms from joining scenarios at all. The game frankly needs more scenarios and a better way of managing realm populations--otherwise, scenarios should have never been implemented, as they take away from the only other fun thing to do:
Open RvR: While 3/4 of your realm is either hacking it out in scenarios or standing around twiddling their thumbs waiting to get into one, you and your small band of lackeys decide to scour the countryside, searching for some fresh enemy meat. Trouble is, there isn't any. Despite having spent many hours in the Tiers 1 and 2 open RvR areas, I have seen a grand total of 2 people and have effectively killed exactly one. Capturing objectives, too, is something of a joke, since there is no incentive for the enemy to defend them. You can buy renown gear at any keep you control, which means if you simply go out and take a different keep instead of defending the one you currently control, you can just as easily get the stuff you need. Capturing a new keep also almost always awards more renown and exp than defending one you already control, so why the hell should I defend? Why should my enemies defend? And what good is open RvR if the RvR aspect of it -takes away- from the good old PvP?
WHERE'S DA FIGHT?: The chat system is probably the worst suited for what it needs to do that I've seen in recent history. There is no way to warn or be warned about incoming enemy attacks or the location of a nearby group of enemy soldiers. The map indicates ongoing fights, but what if there are none? If a few of my buddies and I are out riding the countryside and spot a dastardly group of our arrogant brethren--but are too vastly outnumbered to engage them--wtf do we do? Hide? Run away? Send a carrier pigeon with a greeting card to beg for mercy? The inability to call for reinforcements is sorely missed, and with it is missed the sense of community created by defending your homeland alongside your brothers. While guild and warband chat can be used to this extent, the viability of this versus intel coming from your entire realm in that area is next to nil. This game doesn't need a better way to find the fight--not really. It needs more interaction between friendly players. Without it, we might as well be playing Planetside, Guild Wars, or, well, Crysis for that matter.
So What?: Nothing you can do in this game--nothing--matters. If you capture your enemy's capital city, the conflict resets. Whoop da whoop. If you reach R40 RR80, you are still a single person with only a very, VERY slightly increased ability to contribute to the overall war effort. There is no overall sense of war effort like there was in DAoC, where capturing your enemy's relic meant the display of a PERMANENT symbol of glory and a realm-wide buff--but only for as long as you could defend those precious objects. In WAR, I wonder why I should care about my enemy's city. Sure, it's big, it's shiny. It would suck for them if we blew it up. But then the thought hits me: wait, no it wouldn't... it's not even all that great for us. I can't see anything at all to accomplish as a realm in this game. And that, for an RvR experience, is a devastatingly crippling blow.
So far, I can't understand why people are so excited about this game. It seems lackluster, at best, continuing with WoW's trend of limiting things you can actually do in an effort to perfect those possible playstyles. Yet, despite Mythic's efforts to focus on the RvR experiene, it seems a bit beyond 12 steps below lackluster to me. There is no iconinc force in the game, nothing to make me care about the war my race is fighting. There is no sense of cooperation between players, no common goal or unifying spirit. The PvE game is laughable, the PvP game is not truly focused on PvP (but rather on "winning," which can theoretically be done without killing a single player), and the epic experience that an RPG is supposed to offer is depressingly absent.
Yes, this game is very bug-free for release; yes, it performs very well. But have any of you stopped to consider why this should be hailed as a "good" game? I'm sad to say it, but I don't think this game will be the one that stands this genre back up on its feet. If anything, this is the straw that pierced the lion's heart: I firmly believe that we may never see a truly solid MMO experience ever again. And the fact that the sentiments expressed above are those of a small minority only push that expectation forward. Sorry guys: I just don't get it.
lmao
spoken like a true sand boxer note this part " And there are more of us EQ/UO vets who are looking for a game where the PVE is a bit more challenging than you would think." have you ever noticed how sand boxers like to announce this i am from eq/uo so what.
lmao
While I do understand that you want a sandbox and this isnt a good fit, some of your other info shows you didnt spend very much time at all.
PQ's in the beta right now are typically very easy, but here is waht you can do to make it fun - Do a PQ with only a few ppl, between 3 players to a full group. Makes them ALOT more fun! It's actually a challenge where you have to work together and work against the clock. Also, it's very early so dont expect challenge. From what I hear the late game PQ's are much, much harder then these are. So that sounds like they could be fun. Seriously tho, do one in the early morning if u can with a small group. Makes them alot better.
About scenarios, go by the flight master. Queue for one, fly to next zone, queue, repeat. Lets u sign up for more
Open-RvR? Go to the human zone. For some reason the elf and greenskin is nearly empty.... the human one ALWAYS has action! Even the middle of the night theres least 2 groups aruond usuallly, way more at peak time.
The friendly player interaction comments I'm not sure about. I invite everyone I see when doing RvR and they usually accept, as long as u chat I found some good interaction. I look forward to guilds for when you work with them on sieges, even if u work with allied guilds as well. Guild interaction defending and attacking keeps should fit what your looking for here, no?
I think that would fix most the things in your last paragraph as well, especially having a reason to fight, when you claim a keep and generate resources from it, and with the end-game where if you take over the enemy capital, you unlock the instance that contains the best gear in game.
Yes, at first it doesnt seem amazing when you first play. Thats because they sticked to peoples comfort zone and give combat similar to WoW. Now that I've played for almost a week, I like the fact that I could instantly get in to PvP any time of day, level and get gear thru PvP, I love never having to search for groups, the variety of world PvP and scenarios is good to mix it up, and I've seen how working with a well coordinated team could greatly enhance how good you and your realm are doing. After the PQ's I did all morning, all with under a full group, I can honestly say I really enjoy the PQ system. It gives the feeling of an "outdoor instance", except no waiting time or waiting for groups. So I would say while the combat doesnt feel new and amazing, the implementation is what makes the game fun.
Now the late game is a mystery to me, but as long as they ramp up the difficulty, and as long as the keep raids and guild interaction goes well, it should definately be worth some play time.
I hope some of my post actually helps you find some of the more enjoyable points of the game
Sorry I'm not buying it and not every champion mob is created equally. The other day on my Archmage in the CvE PQ where you pick up the tablets off the ground I got 2 hit by a champion mob, died in under 4 seconds.
On my Marauder I remember fighting a champion mob in the crypts in chapter 2 of choas and that thing killed me in about 4 hits. There is no way in heck that class can solo it. Sure there are some champion mobs that some classes can kill but it is not anywhere near the point where champion mobs are an easy kill for most classes.
I'd like more challenging PvE don't get me wrong but no the majority of players do not want it, especially while leveling up. What I want and what the reality is are not the same and the designers of gamers will appeal to the reality.
Based on the OPs definitions of what a 'solid' MMO experience is, all I can say is GOOD RIDDANCE to those games.
MMORPGs are finally evolving after a decade of stagnation using tedious timesink UO mechanics. Some might complain about the 'good old days' back when MMORPGS were a niche market that had pathetic sales compared to other genres like RTS, FPS and RPGs. MMORPGs have finally entered the real gaming market and it's long past time.
There will always those who refuse to see the need for change and fight against it. Fortunately those get to go the way of the dinosaurs.
Were you doing open RvR on a oceanic server? Or did you bullrush to t2 before others could catch you? On caledor there was at least 25 people on each side fighting for the keep in toll country. In the RvR zone in nordland its always active going back forth very easily.
I enjoy doing the same scenarios over and over again. Each day each side had new tactics to try and during the day they would be worked out by the other team. During the first 2 days or so me and the people from my guild went straight for barracks in empire t1. After a day or so of that a group of desto was always ran up the middle, so we had to fight them or hide and wait.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
If you really have experiance you should have realistic expectations, I want the same things you seem to want but I do not expect those things to be made atm, I still have hopes on seeing such game in about 3/5 years from now, seeing how tech is evolving in HOW it can be incorperated into MMORPG's, and more important is I hope that the general public will wake up and see HOW MUCH more MMORPG could be.
For now or atleast those with realistic views and understanding HOW games are made these day's can do 2 things, they either enjoy the game or move to something else to enjoy, molding a game to your very own desire's has not done any game any good.
I enjoyed WAR for the moments I spend with it, i do not see it as a MMORPG but do see it as a entertaining GAME and must say I ardly believe those who speak about experiance as they do show lack of experiance or atleast lack of understanding WHY certain games are the way they are right now.
Get a realistic sense of this genre will make this genre go forward, but aslong we keep having people with unrealistic expectations we will not see this genre improve.
Keep in mind as a experianced MMORPG player YOU NEVER TRY HARD TO LIKE A GAME, only people new to this genre will in some cases TRY HARD.
I have played UO for 3 years and it was a blast ( left due to pvp beeing dead and pub 16 )
But i LOVE this game so far . Even if i had fun in UO doesnt mean i want a UO2 .
As stupid as it may sound; the game is as linear as Guildwars, I think that's it's problem. Mind you, for a lot of people this is not a problem but for some, the ones who are looking for a believable WORLD, it's extremely annoying and gamebreaking.
No, you don't understand. I really want someone to explain to me what makes this a good game. I don't see it, but there are so many people who like it, there must be a reason, right? Maybe I give people too much credit.
I don't understand. Why do you need people to tell you why a game is good or bad. Its subjective. It cannot be explained. It can only be felt.
People had pointed out features of WAR they love, you dismissed them, and come back asking for more "explanation". No that is no explanation seeking. That is pure trolling.
The Mr good guy has politely told you that there is nothing to explain. In other word, he is telling you to bug off and shut up. If you like it play it. If you do not like it, go away.
No you do not give people too much credit, you have yet to understand what is respect. We have given you too much credit in trying to talk to you.
- Yes the PvE NPC challenge could be better
- Public quests - that was fun. I dont care that it will reset, no-one is holding a gun to my head to make me play it
- Scenarios - no one holds a gun to your head and makes you go in solo and get whatever pick up group is going. But as thats the norm at the moment - grab 5 friends, get some voice comm, go kick butt.
Wow, someone is trying to have a proper discussion and gets told off for... discussing stuff on a forum. Stop trying to act like an e-thug. What the OP is on about is NOT trolling, you just fail to grasp what he means, and tbh I DO understand what he means. I'll try to explain it in a way that even you might understand it.
Lots of people have no trouble with being told what to do; Go here, drink Coca-cola, watch this, eat this, you gotta have a BMW, kill this, you gotta be 70, have S4 gear. They like the grind and threadmill because it's easy, doesn't take any effort. They 're just a big flock of consumers, "mindless cattle" could describe it. They might not even realize it and when told start shouting in anger and feined outrage, but the majority of people are just that; cattle, it's a biological/evolution thing.
When playing games these people are happy with being confined since that essentially means they're being told what to do, and how to do it. Game made goals, easily understandable goals and for the love of anything holy, lets not make it too complicated or needing effort and braincells. Easy does it, simple gameplay.
Some people are different, they want many options and if at all possible there should be some bad options in there as well, since that means that putting in effort gets rewarded. They don't want to be told where to go and they'll see a cage-like construction from miles away. It may be a golden cage but a cage nonetheless. These people want to make up their own minds, be able to explore and NOT follow the beaten to death path, either because it's the best way to do it or (even worse) because the game dictates them.
To them having choices means being able to grow as a character, and essentially "feel" to be in that make believe world. They want to have options, not directions. DAoC catered for that with HUGE landmasses, different specs where your decisions meant something (before respec stones). They want to travel around and get a feeling for the huge world, be able to roam freely and being challenged. Since then MMO's have watered down, lost risk and the option of making bad choices. Add to that the fact that these days everything is found on the net on quests, skills and all that. Again, people not wanting to put in thought but rather follow someone else's dumbed down cookie cutter ideas.
WAR just continues the "idiot proof gameplay" trend. It's very simple, very linear and very much a cage. THAT is the problem, it has nothing to do with the classes or game mechanics as such. It's the fact that, while this is an MMO, he has to room to make his own choices, not really.
There is only one MMO currently that caters for us type of players, and that's EVE-online. And even that one gets bogged down by the sheer amount of non-effort mindless PVE jokers.
These "Oh, I really wanted to like this game" threads are getting old. All this "antimarketing" of every new release is bullshit. Its in every single forum you look in. I'm starting to think that 80%+ of MMORPG.com are viral marketers who do nothing but crap on every other game besides the one their being paid by. They should make a "Whiney bitch" forum for every game so that useful and interesting posts can be seen in general. I'd much rather discuss games than why every little snot-nosed, self-important whiner finds this or that game inferior or beneath them. Piss off.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
To be fair to the poster that made you write that response the OP wanted the people that likes the game prove to him why they like it - that is a pretty derogative way of asking a question. Discussions are always good though
I find this thread funny since it brings two completely different crowds together:
- Players that want a sand box like game (WAR is not a sand-box game - as Sora said EVE is the only game that to some extent right now satisfy that need)
- Players that want WAR to be bad because they love WoW (much more difficult discussion about pros, cons and personal taste in a ferocious mix).
The sand-box argument is rock solid - WAR is not a sand-box. It is really as simple as that. However, those that want a true sand-box will be dissatisfied for a long period of time - the market for people that currently really wants a sand-box is stupidly small.
WoW vs WAR argument is harder. My own personal take is as follows (I like WAR and will play it):
- WoW has better raid PvE content and is more polished in the click->action->animation department. WAR has better casual PvE content, better and richer PvP content and better graphics. WAR has great polish for being in Open Beta but obviously less than WoW and EvE that have been out for some time. For some people this polish is more worth than the current strengths of the WAR offering, for others (like myself) it is not.
As to the specifics of the OP:
- I always get suspicious of a post that mixes high and low, and that is posted across multiple forums at the same time. If you wanted a sand-box, why did you even test and review WAR? There is not a simple fact anywhere that says WAR is a sand-box. Then you comment what is obviously T1 (the 'learn-the-game zone') and extrapolate that to all other tiers and the end-game which does not make sense. I could summarize your review into 'PvE is too simple and linear in T1 and at least I had problems finding other people to RvR with - and when I RvRed it was silly because it was unbalanced'.
And your last argument - that the RvR was unbalanced amuses me. You want a sand-box game but complain that RvR is so free that unbalanced teams in terms of composition and rank can fight battles? So suddenly you want less sand-box? <scratches head>
Please modify your post topic to plainly "I fail".
You sound like a whiney kid man, want a lolly? So you cant find anyone to bash up? Wait until the game actually goes live on the 18th when the majority of the hype community is in the game. I also saw you dislike grinding, so why are you complaining that the kills are too easy? Isn't that what you wanted? Neway seeing as your post has no point i wont stay too long.
Cheers.
Personally, I had hoped it to be DaoC 2, I know that's a bit naive, even more since memories tend to forget the bad sides and emphasise the cool sides, but still. That's what I hoped for.
To a point where I closed by WOW account and my 3 EVE accounts, anticipating WAR beta and eventually the game itself. I have it pre ordered and at some point I'm sure I'll play it for a bit, but it won't be THE MMO to hold me for a longer period of time.
Time to reactivate my EVE accounts I guess.
No disrespect, but looking at your previous posts, but almost every post you have made is negative..
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/userPosts/723076
Currently Playing Nothing...
cry more sand boxer and please go back to eve
No disrespect, but looking at your previous posts, but almost every post you have made is negative..
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/userPosts/723076
It's a common theme in this forum. Several accounts seem to have been created for no other purpose than flaming WAR. It's hard, but the best thing to do is ignore EVERYONE'S opinion on a game's worth and try it yourself. Never trust anyone else's motivations, especially on internet forums.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
To be fair to the poster that made you write that response the OP wanted the people that likes the game prove to him why they like it - that is a pretty derogative way of asking a question. Discussions are always good though
I find this thread funny since it brings two completely different crowds together:
- Players that want a sand box like game (WAR is not a sand-box game - as Sora said EVE is the only game that to some extent right now satisfy that need)
- Players that want WAR to be bad because they love WoW (much more difficult discussion about pros, cons and personal taste in a ferocious mix).
The sand-box argument is rock solid - WAR is not a sand-box. It is really as simple as that. However, those that want a true sand-box will be dissatisfied for a long period of time - the market for people that currently really wants a sand-box is stupidly small.
WoW vs WAR argument is harder. My own personal take is as follows (I like WAR and will play it):
- WoW has better raid PvE content and is more polished in the click->action->animation department. WAR has better casual PvE content, better and richer PvP content and better graphics. WAR has great polish for being in Open Beta but obviously less than WoW and EvE that have been out for some time. For some people this polish is more worth than the current strengths of the WAR offering, for others (like myself) it is not.
As to the specifics of the OP:
- I always get suspicious of a post that mixes high and low, and that is posted across multiple forums at the same time. If you wanted a sand-box, why did you even test and review WAR? There is not a simple fact anywhere that says WAR is a sand-box. Then you comment what is obviously T1 (the 'learn-the-game zone') and extrapolate that to all other tiers and the end-game which does not make sense. I could summarize your review into 'PvE is too simple and linear in T1 and at least I had problems finding other people to RvR with - and when I RvRed it was silly because it was unbalanced'.
And your last argument - that the RvR was unbalanced amuses me. You want a sand-box game but complain that RvR is so free that unbalanced teams in terms of composition and rank can fight battles? So suddenly you want less sand-box? <scratches head>
I'm not sure how asking someone to address the specific issues in my post is derogative, since those issues are clearly big ones. I didn't mean it to be derogative, anyway--simply to try to dig up some information that may be very deeply buried, since relatively few people have actually experience tier 4. I'm only presenting arguments from a sort of devil's advocate perspective, though I really do believe my position applies. I can't stomach bowing down and praising a game simply because there's "nothing better" available.
1. I want a sandbox, but I can also have fun playing a linear game. There does come a point, though, where "linear" becomes more like "storybook." I don't need a game with limitless things to do. It's just that there isn't enough in WAR--but the true kicker, to me, is that the things that it has chosen to do, in my opinion, are not improvements on how those things have been done in the past. (That's a pretty audacious statement, I know, but I've explained why I think this pretty in-deptch throughout the thread.) And if you think that summary completely represents my review, well, I think you only read part of my OP, let alone the rest of the thread (which I can understand--it's long).
2. You can't mix elements of a sandbox into a linear game. The game is either a sandbox or it is linear--it can't have pieces of both. Therefore, if you choose to do a linear game with fights facilitiated the way that they are in WAR, there should be a mechanism for making those fights fair. Try having 8 Witch Elfs and 4 DoKs versus 3 Swordmasters, 4 Archmages, 4 Shadow Warriors, and 1 White Lion. It's really depressing how badly the disadvantaged team gets steamrolled--as in, there is literally no contest.
it is not a sandbox, if you want a sandbox, play ryzom, that is a great sandbox
So far WAR has not dissapointed me, pve is a bit easy atm, altho I had some tough encounters as well.
Public Quests are fun.
Havent done much RvR yet, but without a fixed community I don't see RvR getting to its full potential. Open Beta testers are just messing around on different servers and with different chars. Realm Pride still has to kick in on live, once people are settled.
Greetz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
You forgot to mention the almost non existant Crafting System.
Lol every RL friend thats played DAOC loves WAR so much more.
But that explains it. Your a sanbox fanboi. Guess were your sanbox is? It was in your backyard after you grew too old to play in it so it was taken out.
Get it? Sandbox is of the past and is gone for many reasons. Do i know them? No but devs do.
Devs don't. Publishers do. Linear games are cheaper to produce and simpler for the idiot legions of the world to understand.
Well, your post was the first lucid perspective from someone who doesn't enjoy the game. Unfortunately, you had to taint it with this comment. It's just another example of the arrogance and drama from the elitist, sandbox, skill-based MMORPG crowd. And yes, when you call people idiots when they don't seem to understand why the games you like are inherently better than their's, it's being an elitist.
I fail to understand why you and your crowd don't understand why there can't be good games that take different paths to being fun and successful.
AC was my first MMORPG and I loved it. It was sandbox, skill-based and hardcore by today's standards. But I like WoW and many other games that don't fit that mold.
Does that make me an idiot?
Wanted to add concerning the "meaningless RvR". If you look closely, fighting over anything anywhere in any respect is pretty much pointless.
I don't want to expand this into real life (where it fits just as well, it doesn't matter if we all die in 5 minutes or live to start the next war) but even if reduced to games:
If you build up a huge alliance like BoB in EvE and conquer half the universe with it, it doesn't matter, the alliance will eventually perish, you can claim the whole universe and one sunshiny day the game will close and all will go to ashes, like everything we do and everything everybody ever did anywhere in the world turned to meaningless, unremembered ashes... but well, I said I wouldn't punch this into the metaphysics corner, so yea... RvR is pretty much pointless in ANY game...
Meridion