What's wrong with instanced dungeons? Isn't it obvious?
Because I don't want to have to wait outside a dungeon to ruin your fun. You're limiting my FREEDOM! You're paying a subscription fee to provide ME with content. Why would you want to take that away from me? Why are you so selfish??
Instancing is for carebears and lame-o casual players who want easy mode. They aren't manly enough for REAL PvP. They don't have the dedication to be a PRO and play 12+ hours a day like me. They're just whiney babies who want instant gratification, hand holding, and story-telling. Real gamers know stories are for childrens' books!
Besides, if I'm not playing with over a thousand people on my screen, simultaneously, at all times, then it's not an MMO. Duh. Even retarted folks know that!
It's fun to meet other people in dungeons, but it can be a reall pain in the but as well. EQ was a lot of fun in this regaurds, but it took up to much time waiting for a camp to open up. Many times you would never get to the mob you wanted due to people camping it all day long. In age of Conan I found this a problem even with areas instanced. There were to many people and not enough mobs for everyone to kill and complete their quests. Unfortunately many people do not have the time to spend on non instanced dungeons. If the devs could find a better way to make it work without instancing I would go for it, but right now it doesn't make a lot of sense.
What kills immersion is the fact that stupid people actually enjoy quests where you "infiltrate a fortress and kill a boss". Conventional quests are retarded. It has nothing to do with instancing or lack there of, it has to do with people like you gobbling up this retarded non-immersive bullshit left and right. It is not immersive to have multiple instances of the same place in the world. You have no idea what the hell you're talking about. You're confusing "immersion" with "bullshit."
This. What's the point in a MMO if you're just going to ignore all the other people and do quests from NPCs and instanced dungeons like any other non-mmo rpgs with multiplayer support.
Instanced dungeons can be fun sure but ideally I want to play a game that lacks content for high end farmers
The type of MMO I have in mind would have dungeons but they would be fun places where you can adventure into with the community and make an impact.
I should make it clear I am also not down for camping a named mob either. Instead, I'm a fan of open PVE games that do not force me to farm named mobs for uber loot.
So, instanced dungeons can be fun but I firmly believe they are a bad design. They turn MMORPGs into coop RPGs for small groups. Instead, I'm a fan of something akin to Public Quests (trademarked by Mythic) whereas a casual can walk up a contribute to an important battle. I believe that to be an improvement over instanced dungeons
In an instanced dungeon, you're not all in the same world. Defeats the purpose of an MMO.
Games played:
Runescape -------------- www.runescape.com Magic of the Gods ------ www.magicofthegods.com Saga of Ryzom ---------- www.ryzom.com World of Warcraft ------- www.worldofwarcraft.com
What's wrong with instanced dungeons? Isn't it obvious?
Because I don't want to have to wait outside a dungeon to ruin your fun. You're limiting my FREEDOM! You're paying a subscription fee to provide ME with content. Why would you want to take that away from me? Why are you so selfish??
Instancing is for carebears and lame-o casual players who want easy mode. They aren't manly enough for REAL PvP. They don't have the dedication to be a PRO and play 12+ hours a day like me. They're just whiney babies who want instant gratification, hand holding, and story-telling. Real gamers know stories are for childrens' books!
Besides, if I'm not playing with over a thousand people on my screen, simultaneously, at all times, then it's not an MMO. Duh. Even retarted folks know that!
And yes, I'm totally being facetious.
This is actually not far from the truth at all. Many "hardcore" players have this exact holier-than-thou attitude. Sad, but bugs the hell out of me sometimes.
In an instanced dungeon, you're not all in the same world. Defeats the purpose of an MMO.
So, the purpose of a MMO is to be in the same world at once with everyone else? I'm sorry, but to me that doesn't mean anything if i'm not having any fun.
I'd rather have fun together with a smaller group of people than to be utterly bored together with lots of people.
If you are a fan of instancing - why not play a game like NWN instead?
I love NWN. But I have just as much right to play MMOs as you do. Why do pvp players play MMOs when they have lots of other games like team fortress 2, quake 3, starcraft etc etc ?
If you are a fan of instancing - why not play a game like NWN instead?
I love NWN. But I have just as much right to play MMOs as you do. Why do pvp players play MMOs when they have lots of other games like team fortress 2, quake 3, starcraft etc etc ?
I can;t speak for the pvpers that run around in Battlegrounds and Arenas. But I play EVE Online because it gives me something those titles you listed lack. EVE gives me huge battles and random skirmishes (0.0 Alliance pvp). Plus, it gives me the PVE mix albeit I do think that part of the game could use more spice. But anyway, I prefer non-instanced pvp along with non-instanced PVE.
I like non-instanced PVE because I can make friends along the way. In open dungeons, you can find replacements, etc if you lose a team member. You can socialize more with the people around you. If you get in a pinch, they might even help you out.
Yep, it can get frustrating having to fight over spawns but I blame the devs for that. Spawn more mobs and scale that up according to the number of people in the zone
I suppose MMOs of today just dont have the bandwidth or something because their goal appears to be to push us off into instances as much as possible. Not sure if they do this for tech reasons or because they are trying to appeal to lowest denominator (meaning, EVERYONE - MASSES rather then roleplayers)
Yes, I know I am playing a game, but I am also someone who likes to immerse myself into the story. If today I can kill a Named Boss countless time (through spawning in instances), then it breaks the immersion for me. Same goes for re-spawning Named Boss in persistent world. The best way to solve it is to create various version of the dungeons and then create databases of names to be randomly picked.
Other than that it is the idea of what unique experience stands for me. I like to feel that I successfully achieve something that others may not have done before. Or at least being some uniqueness to my character, instead of EVERYONE will go through the same thing...
That's just me, and my view on instanced dungeons.
If special mobs drop rare items they are even rarer if the mob spawns only so often.
Some people are very competitive and want the ability to get the kill rights because they were prepared and/or the best when the spawn popped. They like not only fighting the mob but also fighting other players for the kill rights.
In an open PvP game instanced = a gank free area.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Yup that is frustrating...but thats what happens on PVE servers. Which is why a lot of people are begging for PVP games because it makes the experience 10000x more realistic, challenging, and satisfying when you accomplish something. Anyone can read up on how to kill a raid boss, take some guys in there and punch the same buttons over and over....but trust me that same group will have a lot more fun and will be more satisfied with their time spent if they felt challenege and had to be aware of third party influences
You seem to forget that sharing of raid boss strategies didn't start until WoW. There was a specific event that started the entire trend. Early in WoW's life, Blizzard banned a top guild for pulling a raid boss to a zone line. This was common practice in MMO raiding in EQ, and the raid dungeon was designed by an ex-EQ developer. Everyone assumed this was OK, since creative pulling tactics were commonplace before WoW. Without warning, Blizzard banned the guild, and said all raid mobs were meant to be killed where they spawned. There was a huge uproar on the forums, and in retaliation, the guild started releasing raid strategies. Raid progression was trivialized and sped up. There are quotes from Blizzard devs from back then that the entire practice of sharing raid strats was completely unexpected, and changed how they designed encounters. This is part of the reason why WoW is so gear dependant today.
If a game has challenging raid encounters with non-obvious strategies for winning, and killing the bosses actually mean something in the game, guilds wont share the strats. EQ achieved this by not instancing dungeons and giving bosses long spawn times. I'm sure there are plenty better ways...just giving an example that worked in the past. I have a great memory of following another guild as they cleared a dungeon on the way to a raid mob invisible on my enchanter so I could watch and report to the GM on how they killed the boss. The info I gathered helped us finally kill the boss.
I totally agree that people are looking to pvp for a real challenge in MMO's again, but pvp is not the only way.
This is one of the best posts that I have read all week. Well said and good info.
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
Originally posted by imbant This baffles me...because it is soooo immersive to be going out to kill the Big Bad Dragon and you tell your friend..."hey we are killin the BBD"....."Hey so are we!"....."Yea my other friends group just killed him 5min ago for the 2nd time today"......but how is he here in front of us if he has already been killed today? twice....
Um, no....that's what happens when you instance. The way to avoid the immersion breaker of multiple people killing same boss in the same time frame is to not instance it, and make spawn times long.
That was his point. You both agree on the subject. Learn to read.
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
I think you guys are being a bit extreme. Instanced dungeons don't totally destroy the community. They are just one part of the game. You have tons of other stuff you do with the community. I really like WAR's style of open dungeons where the only part that's instanced is the boss encounter.
Nothing is wrong with them. The pros highly outweigh the cons and any former EQ player should know that. You can't make a persistent boss encounter without forcing players to wait in line. If you're waiting in line to play a videogame you simply have no life or just don't value your time at all, plain and simple. Thats why it was accepted back with EQ. Most people playing didn't have lives, so waiting in line for hours camping was no big deal.
MMOs aren't designed for nerds with no life anymore so the game mechanics have to cater to the players. Yes its a hard concept to grasp for some elitists here. But as most MMO developers have already admitted, the hardcore simply don't matter anymore and that BURNS THEM UP. So they come here and complain to those who also don't give a damn about them anymore. Its a hard thing to accept that you're not at the top of the food chain.
I like instanced dungeons because you don't have to compete with other groups for the mob you have to kill or other quest items you need that a mob drops. Plus it kinda kills immersion if your have to wait for a group to kill the mob and wait again for it to respawn.
This baffles me...because it is soooo immersive to be going out to kill the Big Bad Dragon and you tell your friend..."hey we are killin the BBD"....."Hey so are we!"....."Yea my other friends group just killed him 5min ago for the 2nd time today"......but how is he here in front of us if he has already been killed today? twice....
Instanced dungeons take away from the MASSIVELY part of MMO and it really brings the game into easymode.
Either way that would kill immersion even if the dungeon wasn't instanced. How does an instanced dungeon make the game into easymode?
I can think of several reasons why instanced dungeons are a good thing, but few, if any, why they are bad. Someone care to explain?
Instanced dungeons repell one of the fundamental ideas of what a MMORPG is. A game where all people can interact with each other, for good or for worse.
Creating twin dungeons when the first one is full prevents this. It also point finger to the developers that created such hi graphic requirements for their game that instances have to become a necessarity.
I like instanced dungeons because you don't have to compete with other groups for the mob you have to kill or other quest items you need that a mob drops. Plus it kinda kills immersion if your have to wait for a group to kill the mob and wait again for it to respawn.
This baffles me...because it is soooo immersive to be going out to kill the Big Bad Dragon and you tell your friend..."hey we are killin the BBD"....."Hey so are we!"....."Yea my other friends group just killed him 5min ago for the 2nd time today"......but how is he here in front of us if he has already been killed today? twice....
Instanced dungeons take away from the MASSIVELY part of MMO and it really brings the game into easymode.
Either way that would kill immersion even if the dungeon wasn't instanced. How does an instanced dungeon make the game into easymode?
It removes the possibility for other players to interact with you. You wont be killed by me ingame cause i cant enter the same dungeon your in. Your "safe" in your twin dungeon.
What kills immersion is getting a mission to infiltrate a fortress and kill a boss. Upon arriving to the location you see the place is camped to the brim with a line of people waiting for the boss. THAT is the bane of massively multiplayer games. Then to add salt in the wound, you got idiots hopping around like kangaroos and other idtios spamming the dance emote while they scream random #$%^. JUST THINKING ABOUT IT MAKES ME SO FRIGGIN MAD!!!
I would rather take my team of 6 people, enter an instanced dungeon, and face a challenging guantlet of enemies before reaching a potential hard eopic battle with a boss. That is what I call immersive gaming. Not waitin in line for an easy kill on an easy 8 man boss that 50 other people will help you with.
What kills immersion is the fact that stupid people actually enjoy quests where you "infiltrate a fortress and kill a boss". Conventional quests are retarded. It has nothing to do with instancing or lack there of, it has to do with people like you gobbling up this retarded non-immersive bullshit left and right.
It is not immersive to have multiple instances of the same place in the world. You have no idea what the hell you're talking about. You're confusing "immersion" with "bullshit."
Oh Im sorry for actually reading the story, getting involved with it, and wanting to play out the adventure given to me to it's fullest. I guess mmoRPG is not about story, or playing out your role and challenges to the fullest of your character.
It is about skipping all story related text. Going to a location with only "rewards" and "level ups" on your mind. camping the spot with 900 people. Having an LOLcat L33t speak conversation about bangin chicks or the newest game, and spamming random emotes between pulls.
Yup, you opened my eyes. I'm an idiot. Those silly devs spending weeks upon weeks thinking of lore and stories and setting up perfectly laid out dungeons and quest don't know a damn thing about immersion.
I think you guys are being a bit extreme. Instanced dungeons don't totally destroy the community. They are just one part of the game. You have tons of other stuff you do with the community. I really like WAR's style of open dungeons where the only part that's instanced is the boss encounter.
This comment holds the truth. Many people, particularly on this site, are extremist in their gaming experience.
You got the 100% open worlders who think the whole game should be one open fiasco of people. Forget whether or not there is grieving, or the challenge is lost in an encounter, or it is not fun with so many people chopping up the server performance. IT HAS GOT TO BE OPEN WORLD 24/7
Then there are the 100% instancers. I want my pretty graphics to be smooth. I don't want to see or talk to anyone while I quest. The only time I see more than 8 people is when Im in town. Guild Wars is true immersion.
Let's not forget the hardcore PvPers. It ain't PvP unless I can kill you anywhere any time, then steal your stuff. Our cannibal system of feeding off other payers resources and fun to increase my own fun is the only way to go. Too bad if the level one can't leave the startup zone because my guild of 25 dudes keeps griefing him. He should have 100 friends backing him up. Ultima Online is the perfectest PvP game in the world. It is so perfect that no other MMO developer in the past 10 years has attempted to make a another Ultima style game because it rocks so hard.
It seems no one knows about "everything in moderation". I like having a litttle of all these different styles of gameplay in my game. I want to run an instanced guantlet every once in a while. I also want to compete with other guilds to kill that epic world boss. I want objective based PvP on any cale. 15 man scenerio, Epic 100man RvR. I want to enter a free for all gank fest zone every once in a while.
I like all the things that people hate and all the things they like. I can't play a game that extremely leans toward one side. This is why DAOC and WoW held my subscription for 3 years each, while all other MMO games barely get 6 months out of me.
Nothing is wrong with them. The pros highly outweigh the cons and any former EQ player should know that. You can't make a persistent boss encounter without forcing players to wait in line. If you're waiting in line to play a videogame you simply have no life or just don't value your time at all, plain and simple. Thats why it was accepted back with EQ. Most people playing didn't have lives, so waiting in line for hours camping was no big deal. MMOs aren't designed for nerds with no life anymore so the game mechanics have to cater to the players. Yes its a hard concept to grasp for some elitists here. But as most MMO developers have already admitted, the hardcore simply don't matter anymore and that BURNS THEM UP. So they come here and complain to those who also don't give a damn about them anymore. Its a hard thing to accept that you're not at the top of the food chain.
Sorry former EQ player here and I could not disagree more. While instancing can have a positive effect if used sparingly . Instancing total dungeons like WOW does is a big no no for me. It destroys all those wonderful serendipitus moments of running into a wiped party deep in a dungeon somewhere and helping them recover, or visa versa. Or getting trained by the sole survivor of a wiped party and having to deal with that train. The vast majority of the most fun and memorable moments were a direct result of unforseen happenings directly a result of the dungeons being open to anyone.
And I am sick and tired of the high end players don't have a life BS. Every high end guild I have ever been in was mostly made up of people who worked 40+ hours a week, owned their own businesses or were married with kids. Sure some of the people were like the stereotype, but most just knew how to manage their time efficiently. The only real thing high end players have in common is they know the class/es they play from front to back, how those clases work with other classes in groups and raids and are highly organized with how they spend their time. Basically the same things that usually lead to a succesfull RL generally lead to success in game. The only difference being the only entry barrier in game is time spent.
I think you guys are being a bit extreme. Instanced dungeons don't totally destroy the community. They are just one part of the game. You have tons of other stuff you do with the community. I really like WAR's style of open dungeons where the only part that's instanced is the boss encounter.
This comment holds the truth. Many people, particularly on this site, are extremist in their gaming experience.
You got the 100% open worlders who think the whole game should be one open fiasco of people. Forget whether or not there is grieving, or the challenge is lost in an encounter, or it is not fun with so many people chopping up the server performance. IT HAS GOT TO BE OPEN WORLD 24/7
Then there are the 100% instancers. I want my pretty graphics to be smooth. I don't want to see or talk to anyone while I quest. The only time I see more than 8 people is when Im in town. Guild Wars is true immersion.
Let's not forget the hardcore PvPers. It ain't PvP unless I can kill you anywhere any time, then steal your stuff. Our cannibal system of feeding off other payers resources and fun to increase my own fun is the only way to go. Too bad if the level one can't leave the startup zone because my guild of 25 dudes keeps griefing him. He should have 100 friends backing him up. Ultima Online is the perfectest PvP game in the world. It is so perfect that no other MMO developer in the past 10 years has attempted to make a another Ultima style game because it rocks so hard.
It seems no one knows about "everything in moderation". I like having a litttle of all these different styles of gameplay in my game. I want to run an instanced guantlet every once in a while. I also want to compete with other guilds to kill that epic world boss. I want objective based PvP on any cale. 15 man scenerio, Epic 100man RvR. I want to enter a free for all gank fest zone every once in a while.
I like all the things that people hate and all the things they like. I can't play a game that extremely leans toward one side. This is why DAOC and WoW held my subscription for 3 years each, while all other MMO games barely get 6 months out of me.
Actually Jack's comment is just dodging the question here. Yes, there are other systems which you interact with people, the questions becomes why use a different system here? I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer here, but rather a few distinctive styles of playing a game.
Like you said, most take their game/entertainment very serious and to extreme. That's due to the fact that everyone feels challenged in different ways. Also, there seems to be a trend of "me" attitude growing in MMORPGs for quite a few years now. You can see that in the design of different MMOs. But this is getting further away from the question of why instance dungeons are good or bad.
Back on topic: Yes, there are pros and there are cons for instanced dungeons, for some, they may think there's more pros than cons, for others it may be opposite. I don't discount both sides, for it is their play-styles that sets the opinions. I don't see instanced dungeons as always a bad thing, but it is immersion-breaker just for the fact that you get to kill the same Name Boss over and over because you can (the mechanics of instanced dungeon make it so). That's very inconsistent with any real story-telling. I can understand the need to make the players "feel" like they are the hero when they use these instanced dungeons, but not all MMO should have to use this.
I can think of several reasons why instanced dungeons are a good thing, but few, if any, why they are bad. Someone care to explain?
the first thing that comes to mind is that instanced dungeons are where the Gold sellers farm, and players who bot run amuk its the genre's way of hiding thier dirty luandry.
I personaly dont care as long as a MMO is not entirely instanced like Guild Wars, a few instanced dungeons are not going to kill a MMO's community but when it gets to the point that all hunting locations are instanced the community suffers. I prefer being able to see other players while I lvl, being able to interact with strangers in a online game is part of the point in playing an online game after all.
Comments
What's wrong with instanced dungeons? Isn't it obvious?
Because I don't want to have to wait outside a dungeon to ruin your fun. You're limiting my FREEDOM! You're paying a subscription fee to provide ME with content. Why would you want to take that away from me? Why are you so selfish??
Instancing is for carebears and lame-o casual players who want easy mode. They aren't manly enough for REAL PvP. They don't have the dedication to be a PRO and play 12+ hours a day like me. They're just whiney babies who want instant gratification, hand holding, and story-telling. Real gamers know stories are for childrens' books!
Besides, if I'm not playing with over a thousand people on my screen, simultaneously, at all times, then it's not an MMO. Duh. Even retarted folks know that!
And yes, I'm totally being facetious.
It's fun to meet other people in dungeons, but it can be a reall pain in the but as well. EQ was a lot of fun in this regaurds, but it took up to much time waiting for a camp to open up. Many times you would never get to the mob you wanted due to people camping it all day long. In age of Conan I found this a problem even with areas instanced. There were to many people and not enough mobs for everyone to kill and complete their quests. Unfortunately many people do not have the time to spend on non instanced dungeons. If the devs could find a better way to make it work without instancing I would go for it, but right now it doesn't make a lot of sense.
This. What's the point in a MMO if you're just going to ignore all the other people and do quests from NPCs and instanced dungeons like any other non-mmo rpgs with multiplayer support.
Except paying ~$15 a month to do so.
Instanced dungeons can be fun sure but ideally I want to play a game that lacks content for high end farmers
The type of MMO I have in mind would have dungeons but they would be fun places where you can adventure into with the community and make an impact.
I should make it clear I am also not down for camping a named mob either. Instead, I'm a fan of open PVE games that do not force me to farm named mobs for uber loot.
So, instanced dungeons can be fun but I firmly believe they are a bad design. They turn MMORPGs into coop RPGs for small groups. Instead, I'm a fan of something akin to Public Quests (trademarked by Mythic) whereas a casual can walk up a contribute to an important battle. I believe that to be an improvement over instanced dungeons
In an instanced dungeon, you're not all in the same world. Defeats the purpose of an MMO.
Games played:
Runescape -------------- www.runescape.com
Magic of the Gods ------ www.magicofthegods.com
Saga of Ryzom ---------- www.ryzom.com
World of Warcraft ------- www.worldofwarcraft.com
This is actually not far from the truth at all. Many "hardcore" players have this exact holier-than-thou attitude. Sad, but bugs the hell out of me sometimes.
So, the purpose of a MMO is to be in the same world at once with everyone else? I'm sorry, but to me that doesn't mean anything if i'm not having any fun.
I'd rather have fun together with a smaller group of people than to be utterly bored together with lots of people.
If you are a fan of instancing - why not play a game like NWN instead?
I love NWN. But I have just as much right to play MMOs as you do. Why do pvp players play MMOs when they have lots of other games like team fortress 2, quake 3, starcraft etc etc ?
I love NWN. But I have just as much right to play MMOs as you do. Why do pvp players play MMOs when they have lots of other games like team fortress 2, quake 3, starcraft etc etc ?
I can;t speak for the pvpers that run around in Battlegrounds and Arenas. But I play EVE Online because it gives me something those titles you listed lack. EVE gives me huge battles and random skirmishes (0.0 Alliance pvp). Plus, it gives me the PVE mix albeit I do think that part of the game could use more spice. But anyway, I prefer non-instanced pvp along with non-instanced PVE.
I like non-instanced PVE because I can make friends along the way. In open dungeons, you can find replacements, etc if you lose a team member. You can socialize more with the people around you. If you get in a pinch, they might even help you out.
Yep, it can get frustrating having to fight over spawns but I blame the devs for that. Spawn more mobs and scale that up according to the number of people in the zone
I suppose MMOs of today just dont have the bandwidth or something because their goal appears to be to push us off into instances as much as possible. Not sure if they do this for tech reasons or because they are trying to appeal to lowest denominator (meaning, EVERYONE - MASSES rather then roleplayers)
This is my view on instanced dungeons:
Immersion-breaker.
Yes, I know I am playing a game, but I am also someone who likes to immerse myself into the story. If today I can kill a Named Boss countless time (through spawning in instances), then it breaks the immersion for me. Same goes for re-spawning Named Boss in persistent world. The best way to solve it is to create various version of the dungeons and then create databases of names to be randomly picked.
Other than that it is the idea of what unique experience stands for me. I like to feel that I successfully achieve something that others may not have done before. Or at least being some uniqueness to my character, instead of EVERYONE will go through the same thing...
That's just me, and my view on instanced dungeons.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
If special mobs drop rare items they are even rarer if the mob spawns only so often.
Some people are very competitive and want the ability to get the kill rights because they were prepared and/or the best when the spawn popped. They like not only fighting the mob but also fighting other players for the kill rights.
In an open PvP game instanced = a gank free area.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
You seem to forget that sharing of raid boss strategies didn't start until WoW. There was a specific event that started the entire trend. Early in WoW's life, Blizzard banned a top guild for pulling a raid boss to a zone line. This was common practice in MMO raiding in EQ, and the raid dungeon was designed by an ex-EQ developer. Everyone assumed this was OK, since creative pulling tactics were commonplace before WoW. Without warning, Blizzard banned the guild, and said all raid mobs were meant to be killed where they spawned. There was a huge uproar on the forums, and in retaliation, the guild started releasing raid strategies. Raid progression was trivialized and sped up. There are quotes from Blizzard devs from back then that the entire practice of sharing raid strats was completely unexpected, and changed how they designed encounters. This is part of the reason why WoW is so gear dependant today.
If a game has challenging raid encounters with non-obvious strategies for winning, and killing the bosses actually mean something in the game, guilds wont share the strats. EQ achieved this by not instancing dungeons and giving bosses long spawn times. I'm sure there are plenty better ways...just giving an example that worked in the past. I have a great memory of following another guild as they cleared a dungeon on the way to a raid mob invisible on my enchanter so I could watch and report to the GM on how they killed the boss. The info I gathered helped us finally kill the boss.
I totally agree that people are looking to pvp for a real challenge in MMO's again, but pvp is not the only way.
This is one of the best posts that I have read all week. Well said and good info.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
Um, no....that's what happens when you instance. The way to avoid the immersion breaker of multiple people killing same boss in the same time frame is to not instance it, and make spawn times long.
That was his point. You both agree on the subject. Learn to read.
Yea i think my sarcasm was missed.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
I think you guys are being a bit extreme. Instanced dungeons don't totally destroy the community. They are just one part of the game. You have tons of other stuff you do with the community. I really like WAR's style of open dungeons where the only part that's instanced is the boss encounter.
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Meow
Nothing is wrong with them. The pros highly outweigh the cons and any former EQ player should know that. You can't make a persistent boss encounter without forcing players to wait in line. If you're waiting in line to play a videogame you simply have no life or just don't value your time at all, plain and simple. Thats why it was accepted back with EQ. Most people playing didn't have lives, so waiting in line for hours camping was no big deal.
MMOs aren't designed for nerds with no life anymore so the game mechanics have to cater to the players. Yes its a hard concept to grasp for some elitists here. But as most MMO developers have already admitted, the hardcore simply don't matter anymore and that BURNS THEM UP. So they come here and complain to those who also don't give a damn about them anymore. Its a hard thing to accept that you're not at the top of the food chain.
This baffles me...because it is soooo immersive to be going out to kill the Big Bad Dragon and you tell your friend..."hey we are killin the BBD"....."Hey so are we!"....."Yea my other friends group just killed him 5min ago for the 2nd time today"......but how is he here in front of us if he has already been killed today? twice....
Instanced dungeons take away from the MASSIVELY part of MMO and it really brings the game into easymode.
Either way that would kill immersion even if the dungeon wasn't instanced. How does an instanced dungeon make the game into easymode?
Instanced dungeons repell one of the fundamental ideas of what a MMORPG is. A game where all people can interact with each other, for good or for worse.
Creating twin dungeons when the first one is full prevents this. It also point finger to the developers that created such hi graphic requirements for their game that instances have to become a necessarity.
Sandbox FTW
Have a nice one
This baffles me...because it is soooo immersive to be going out to kill the Big Bad Dragon and you tell your friend..."hey we are killin the BBD"....."Hey so are we!"....."Yea my other friends group just killed him 5min ago for the 2nd time today"......but how is he here in front of us if he has already been killed today? twice....
Instanced dungeons take away from the MASSIVELY part of MMO and it really brings the game into easymode.
Either way that would kill immersion even if the dungeon wasn't instanced. How does an instanced dungeon make the game into easymode?
It removes the possibility for other players to interact with you. You wont be killed by me ingame cause i cant enter the same dungeon your in. Your "safe" in your twin dungeon.
let's do a little math
game = game
game =/= real life
mkay?
"It kills immersion"
Well no duh. It's a game. Immersion can only go so far
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Meow
What kills immersion is the fact that stupid people actually enjoy quests where you "infiltrate a fortress and kill a boss". Conventional quests are retarded. It has nothing to do with instancing or lack there of, it has to do with people like you gobbling up this retarded non-immersive bullshit left and right.
It is not immersive to have multiple instances of the same place in the world. You have no idea what the hell you're talking about. You're confusing "immersion" with "bullshit."
Oh Im sorry for actually reading the story, getting involved with it, and wanting to play out the adventure given to me to it's fullest. I guess mmoRPG is not about story, or playing out your role and challenges to the fullest of your character.
It is about skipping all story related text. Going to a location with only "rewards" and "level ups" on your mind. camping the spot with 900 people. Having an LOLcat L33t speak conversation about bangin chicks or the newest game, and spamming random emotes between pulls.
Yup, you opened my eyes. I'm an idiot. Those silly devs spending weeks upon weeks thinking of lore and stories and setting up perfectly laid out dungeons and quest don't know a damn thing about immersion.
This comment holds the truth. Many people, particularly on this site, are extremist in their gaming experience.
You got the 100% open worlders who think the whole game should be one open fiasco of people. Forget whether or not there is grieving, or the challenge is lost in an encounter, or it is not fun with so many people chopping up the server performance. IT HAS GOT TO BE OPEN WORLD 24/7
Then there are the 100% instancers. I want my pretty graphics to be smooth. I don't want to see or talk to anyone while I quest. The only time I see more than 8 people is when Im in town. Guild Wars is true immersion.
Let's not forget the hardcore PvPers. It ain't PvP unless I can kill you anywhere any time, then steal your stuff. Our cannibal system of feeding off other payers resources and fun to increase my own fun is the only way to go. Too bad if the level one can't leave the startup zone because my guild of 25 dudes keeps griefing him. He should have 100 friends backing him up. Ultima Online is the perfectest PvP game in the world. It is so perfect that no other MMO developer in the past 10 years has attempted to make a another Ultima style game because it rocks so hard.
It seems no one knows about "everything in moderation". I like having a litttle of all these different styles of gameplay in my game. I want to run an instanced guantlet every once in a while. I also want to compete with other guilds to kill that epic world boss. I want objective based PvP on any cale. 15 man scenerio, Epic 100man RvR. I want to enter a free for all gank fest zone every once in a while.
I like all the things that people hate and all the things they like. I can't play a game that extremely leans toward one side. This is why DAOC and WoW held my subscription for 3 years each, while all other MMO games barely get 6 months out of me.
Sorry former EQ player here and I could not disagree more. While instancing can have a positive effect if used sparingly . Instancing total dungeons like WOW does is a big no no for me. It destroys all those wonderful serendipitus moments of running into a wiped party deep in a dungeon somewhere and helping them recover, or visa versa. Or getting trained by the sole survivor of a wiped party and having to deal with that train. The vast majority of the most fun and memorable moments were a direct result of unforseen happenings directly a result of the dungeons being open to anyone.
And I am sick and tired of the high end players don't have a life BS. Every high end guild I have ever been in was mostly made up of people who worked 40+ hours a week, owned their own businesses or were married with kids. Sure some of the people were like the stereotype, but most just knew how to manage their time efficiently. The only real thing high end players have in common is they know the class/es they play from front to back, how those clases work with other classes in groups and raids and are highly organized with how they spend their time. Basically the same things that usually lead to a succesfull RL generally lead to success in game. The only difference being the only entry barrier in game is time spent.
This comment holds the truth. Many people, particularly on this site, are extremist in their gaming experience.
You got the 100% open worlders who think the whole game should be one open fiasco of people. Forget whether or not there is grieving, or the challenge is lost in an encounter, or it is not fun with so many people chopping up the server performance. IT HAS GOT TO BE OPEN WORLD 24/7
Then there are the 100% instancers. I want my pretty graphics to be smooth. I don't want to see or talk to anyone while I quest. The only time I see more than 8 people is when Im in town. Guild Wars is true immersion.
Let's not forget the hardcore PvPers. It ain't PvP unless I can kill you anywhere any time, then steal your stuff. Our cannibal system of feeding off other payers resources and fun to increase my own fun is the only way to go. Too bad if the level one can't leave the startup zone because my guild of 25 dudes keeps griefing him. He should have 100 friends backing him up. Ultima Online is the perfectest PvP game in the world. It is so perfect that no other MMO developer in the past 10 years has attempted to make a another Ultima style game because it rocks so hard.
It seems no one knows about "everything in moderation". I like having a litttle of all these different styles of gameplay in my game. I want to run an instanced guantlet every once in a while. I also want to compete with other guilds to kill that epic world boss. I want objective based PvP on any cale. 15 man scenerio, Epic 100man RvR. I want to enter a free for all gank fest zone every once in a while.
I like all the things that people hate and all the things they like. I can't play a game that extremely leans toward one side. This is why DAOC and WoW held my subscription for 3 years each, while all other MMO games barely get 6 months out of me.
Actually Jack's comment is just dodging the question here. Yes, there are other systems which you interact with people, the questions becomes why use a different system here? I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer here, but rather a few distinctive styles of playing a game.
Like you said, most take their game/entertainment very serious and to extreme. That's due to the fact that everyone feels challenged in different ways. Also, there seems to be a trend of "me" attitude growing in MMORPGs for quite a few years now. You can see that in the design of different MMOs. But this is getting further away from the question of why instance dungeons are good or bad.
Back on topic: Yes, there are pros and there are cons for instanced dungeons, for some, they may think there's more pros than cons, for others it may be opposite. I don't discount both sides, for it is their play-styles that sets the opinions. I don't see instanced dungeons as always a bad thing, but it is immersion-breaker just for the fact that you get to kill the same Name Boss over and over because you can (the mechanics of instanced dungeon make it so). That's very inconsistent with any real story-telling. I can understand the need to make the players "feel" like they are the hero when they use these instanced dungeons, but not all MMO should have to use this.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
the first thing that comes to mind is that instanced dungeons are where the Gold sellers farm, and players who bot run amuk its the genre's way of hiding thier dirty luandry.
I personaly dont care as long as a MMO is not entirely instanced like Guild Wars, a few instanced dungeons are not going to kill a MMO's community but when it gets to the point that all hunting locations are instanced the community suffers. I prefer being able to see other players while I lvl, being able to interact with strangers in a online game is part of the point in playing an online game after all.