Sandbox people are non/low achievers...they like the no-level aspect of "sandbox" MMOGs because it hides the fact that they are not very good at achieving things. In EVE Online all one has to do to gain skills is pay a monthly fee...the rest is done for you; your character gains skills whether you're AFK eating, sleeping, pooping, flunking Algabra, surfing porn, touching yourself, posting replies on MMORPG.com, etc., etc....
That's the way the Sandbox people like it...no challange! Sandbox people say that Level based games "hold your hand" but I say sandbox games "pick you up and carry you!".
Sandbox people are non/low achievers...they like the no-level aspect of "sandbox" MMOGs because it hides the fact that they are not very good at achieving things. In EVE Online all one has to do to gain skills is pay a monthly fee...the rest is done for you; your character gains skills whether you're AFK eating, sleeping, pooping, flunking Algabra, surfing porn, touching yourself, posting replies on MMORPG.com, etc., etc....
That's the way the Sandbox people like it...no challange! Sandbox people say that Level based games "hold your hand" but I say sandbox games "pick you up and carry you!".
If you name achieve next level a challenge . All you have write can be true only for some level based MMOs but not for sandbox. On WoW release I have leveled to 60 for something like 45 RL days. Thats just a joke to achive level cap for such short time. In any other sandbox mmo it will take you times much more to achive the stat/skill caps. The real challenge come in Sandbox where nothing is predefined and surprise and challenge is everywhere. Thats what ppls do not like in sandbox: they really have to think and know what to do in such game .
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
Sandbox people are non/low achievers...they like the no-level aspect of "sandbox" MMOGs because it hides the fact that they are not very good at achieving things. In EVE Online all one has to do to gain skills is pay a monthly fee...the rest is done for you; your character gains skills whether you're AFK eating, sleeping, pooping, flunking Algabra, surfing porn, touching yourself, posting replies on MMORPG.com, etc., etc....
That's the way the Sandbox people like it...no challange! Sandbox people say that Level based games "hold your hand" but I say sandbox games "pick you up and carry you!".
If you name achieve next level a challenge . All you have write can be true only for some level based MMOs but not for sandbox. On WoW release I have leveled to 60 for something like 45 RL days. Thats just a joke to achive level cap for such short time. In any other sandbox mmo it will take you times much more to achive the stat/skill caps. The real challenge come in Sandbox where nothing is predefined and surprise and challenge is everywhere. Thats what ppls do not like in sandbox: they really have to think and know what to do in such game .
The only thing I found challeging about EVE Online was trying to have fun!
How many times does this have to come up before people realize there is a good reason that sandboxes are rare? Sandbox games require independent thinking and creativity. Most gamers, as in most people in life, need their hands held. Sandbox games typically throw you to the wolves and let you do whatever you want, most people are not built for that sort of thinking.
this is the big point the . wow has its fan bace of those who want defind content. for some we want a world where the players create the content. where players craft all the items. players build the citys. where dungons change. where we can remake our toon . with open skill bace. you know like SWG wan sob sob im about to cry
To the OP i have NEVER heard any thing about players wanting linear games,so right there not sure what you getting at.
Number two,player driven economies NEVER work,they ALWAYS alienate new players down the road and ALWAYS become broken.The ONLY way a player driven economy can work is if you have zero RMT activity,witch i have yet to see happen.
Training what you want in a skill based system,is FAKE.It is not a skill system at all, it is just mathematics ,puting numbers into slots.In the end the chat gets spammed with all players asking what is the best build,and players all become the same.Another reason that system stinks is that your MMORPG title just got thrown out the window.There is no such thing as a class anymore,how would like to call every player i nthe game a HYBRID?I for one would like every player to be something different,not a chat full of spam asking "HOW SHOULD I MAKE MY PLAYER".If you have ever played FFXI,you would know that just because you have a class there is different ways to play it...example Dancer,Ninja,even redmage can play various roles.FFXI uses set classes but you can change your subclass anytime,and do have some realistic choices in weapons.
No matter what system is in place i do NOT want to see wizard built players weilding cannons or large swords,it looks out of place and ruins the whole theme of a game.It would be like putting a HEMI into a VOLVO,who in there right mind would do that?.
Back on the skill system again,i can guarantee you it gets real annoying fast,when you see CHAT spammed every 10 seconds by players asking where to put there skills numbers.I mean it takes almost zero thought,yet i still see it over and over in games.At least with set classes ,the noob chat spam is limited to "SO what class has the most damage",another pet peeve i have is seeing that in chat.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Yes, I know there have been a lot of sandbox threads lately, but I've always wondered about this. Everyone says that most people prefer linear mmos to sandbox mmos, but I really don't understand why, if this is true. Why wouldn't you want player interaction that goes beyond grouping? Why wouldn't you want a dynamic player economy and politics that make players relevant to each other, that allow even people of different levels to play together? Why wouldn't you want the challenge of having to play people instead of just numbers? Why wouldn't you want to allow players to make non-combat skills their focus? What's so terrible about features like player housing and cities, or avatar customization? Why do you like being forced to stick to the level appropriate zones instead of being allowed to go where you want? What's so great about being forced to choose your class from a menu instead of just training what you want in a skill based system? What do linear mmorpgs have that's incompatible with features like these?
Some of these questions are easy to answer.
Non combat skills, like fishing? Yea, those can be fun, and some games do add them. Usually there's some sort of crafting, and those are non-combat skills.
Avatar customization is good, and most players want it, and most devs know that and work on it.
There's nothing terrible about features like housing, but for players like myself, housing is a non issue. What can I do with a house? Decorate it? I have no desire to decorate a house. Keep stuff in it? Most games have a bank, and that works fine. I simply don't need a house in the game, it serves no purpose for me.
Level appropriate zones. Well, let's say there are mobs in the game that are powerful, and mobs that are weak. For example, in fantasy, let's say a wolf cub and a Dragon. In Sci Fi, let's say a storm trooper, and Darth Vader and hte Emperor.
Now, what if you start the game, and you can kill Darth Vader and the Emperor, or a Dragon? What's the point then, in ever fighting a wolf cub or a storm trooper? The game is over before it starts. I think you should work your way up, and not start at the top. That seems like common sense. You can't just go anywhere you want to, because you can't kill the Dragon, or Darth Vader when you start the game. If you can, then again, what's the point in going anywhere with lesser mobs? I just killed the Emperor. Now I should go fight some bounty hunters in Mos Esiley? Not likely, since I now rule the Galaxy.
The skills vs levels thing, is in my opinion, a red herring.
Both measure power level. I am a level 5 storm trooper. I have skill level 5 in laser pistol. Same thing.
If you can have every skill in the game, then all players are exactly the same. So instead of MORE diversity, it's actually less. Everyone will come up with the same template, and everyone will play that.
If you restrict skills, like you can only have so many, and the more melee skills you have the less healing skills you can have, then you're basically making classes anyway.
It's really not as much difference between skills and classes as people seem to think.
First the people constantly asking for a sandbox game are proving they can't handle the sandbox concept. Reason there are free style MMOs out right now. Go and find them. Eve Online, UO, and Second Life, all come to mind.
Second, the player base can't be trusted to control the economy and world. They will screw it up. A few who have far more time than the majority of the other players will control the market. Real skill isn't involved the primary currency is time. If you want a sand box economy go find one of those amazing stock market sim. Prove you're capable of handling a skill based economy, not one based upon time spent.
Third, sandboxes failed in the MMO industry. The player base has proven several times now with high profile games, SWG, SIMS Online, to name two that they can't handle a sandbox game.
Lastly, you can build your own sandbox in NWN. If you're so creative and skilled, build a world in NWN and invite your friends to play it.
So really, stop asking for a sandbox game, you can't handle it.
i find you post to be 90% on the money.
the few of us that can handle the "sandbox" type mmo is not the big numbers that game makers are looking for. that is why the WOW frame work has taken over.
swg was NEG to get more player peple left because of lack of content. only the diehart stayed.
we are looking for navarna, utoipa, it cant be found.
... Number two,player driven economies NEVER work,they ALWAYS alienate new players down the road and ALWAYS become broken.The ONLY way a player driven economy can work is if you have zero RMT activity,witch i have yet to see happen. .....
So I guess EVE Online's player driven economy doesn't work at all??? This post makes absolutely no sense.. I'm not going to bother debunking the rest of your post because this point alone just takes it for me
EVE Online crafting is so well thought out, even Tech II items require the Tech I equivalent. Meaning? Young crafters goods sell on the market. Veterans regularly purchase items produced by new crafters. I know, I've been crafting Tech I items for over a year in EVE Online.
If you are going to try to trash a concept, please play the game in question that uses it past 5 seconds so you have some credibility
Why people want to post crazy stuff about non-EQ clones I have no idea. Some of us like variety in our soup you know
First the people constantly asking for a sandbox game are proving they can't handle the sandbox concept. Reason there are free style MMOs out right now. Go and find them. Eve Online, UO, and Second Life, all come to mind.
Second, the player base can't be trusted to control the economy and world. They will screw it up. A few who have far more time than the majority of the other players will control the market. Real skill isn't involved the primary currency is time. If you want a sand box economy go find one of those amazing stock market sim. Prove you're capable of handling a skill based economy, not one based upon time spent.
Third, sandboxes failed in the MMO industry. The player base has proven several times now with high profile games, SWG, SIMS Online, to name two that they can't handle a sandbox game.
Lastly, you can build your own sandbox in NWN. If you're so creative and skilled, build a world in NWN and invite your friends to play it.
So really, stop asking for a sandbox game, you can't handle it.
i find you post to be 90% on the money.
the few of us that can handle the "sandbox" type mmo is not the big numbers that game makers are looking for. that is why the WOW frame work has taken over.
swg was NEG to get more player peple left because of lack of content. only the diehart stayed.
we are looking for navarna, utoipa, it cant be found.
That post was full of talk with no data to support his wild accusations. What failed was LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, DDO, City of Heroes, and the list goes on and on if we are talking pure subscriber data listed on MMO Charts. EVE Online has more subs then those and many more
And don't even discuss Second Life which has incredible yearly revenues.
If players cannot handle sandbox then I wonder why EVE Online has done so well- outgrossing countless EQ clones?
Could it be gamers actually like to see fresh new concepts every once in awhile? NOOOOOO! That can't be it right? Surely EVERYONE wants to play the same game over and over and over? I'm being sarcastic of course. I like to try different games and see new things
Anyway, if you want to say sandbox has failed then show me how eVE Online has failed. Show me how Second Life has failed. Show me hard data that excludes World of Warcraft of course. Any chart I have ever seen, EVE Online has taken the pie from linear mmorpgs. And I suspect it will of course take out Age of Conan once the remaining subscribers bounce in the next few months
Originally posted by omni40 Originally posted by tfox2k1 First the people constantly asking for a sandbox game are proving they can't handle the sandbox concept. Reason there are free style MMOs out right now. Go and find them. Eve Online, UO, and Second Life, all come to mind.
Second, the player base can't be trusted to control the economy and world. They will screw it up. A few who have far more time than the majority of the other players will control the market. Real skill isn't involved the primary currency is time. If you want a sand box economy go find one of those amazing stock market sim. Prove you're capable of handling a skill based economy, not one based upon time spent.
Third, sandboxes failed in the MMO industry. The player base has proven several times now with high profile games, SWG, SIMS Online, to name two that they can't handle a sandbox game.Lastly, you can build your own sandbox in NWN. If you're so creative and skilled, build a world in NWN and invite your friends to play it.
So really, stop asking for a sandbox game, you can't handle it.
i find you post to be 90% on the money. the few of us that can handle the "sandbox" type mmo is not the big numbers that game makers are looking for. that is why the WOW frame work has taken over. swg was NEG to get more player peple left because of lack of content. only the diehart stayed. we are looking for navarna, utoipa, it cant be found.
Once you get a taste of the forbidden you will always search for it I suppose.
Sandbox to a point is great, but the community dictating everything only is attractive to the 2% of gamers that are hardcore and online 18 hours a day.
Currently the fans of this days mmorpg makes me sad.
They all want simple quick gameplay, they no longer want to invest time into a character and build friendships in game, spending five years in a game is unheard of in this day and age because of these people.
They all want to solo 99% of the time and never talk to anyone.
Once they find out a game requires grouping its deemed unworthy.
WoW has brought these people to us and it's killing the future of MMOs.
We will never again see a MMO like UO, SWg-pre cu, eve and now Ryzom.
Even a game that is new to a lot of people (ryzom) is getting a bad rep for requiring a group to fully explore.
The I have a real life crowd is really pathetic, you can play any mmo little by little if you have a RL.
I personally have a wife, full time job and four children and still get to play my 15-20+ hour a week MMO.
These instant gradification players need to GTFO! of my mmo.
... Number two,player driven economies NEVER work,they ALWAYS alienate new players down the road and ALWAYS become broken.The ONLY way a player driven economy can work is if you have zero RMT activity,witch i have yet to see happen. .....
So I guess EVE Online's player driven economy doesn't work at all??? This post makes absolutely no sense.. I'm not going to bother debunking the rest of your post because this point alone just takes it for me
EVE Online crafting is so well thought out, even Tech II items require the Tech I equivalent. Meaning? Young crafters goods sell on the market. Veterans regularly purchase items produced by new crafters. I know, I've been crafting Tech I items for over a year in EVE Online.
If you are going to try to trash a concept, please play the game in question that uses it past 5 seconds so you have some credibility
Why people want to post crazy stuff about non-EQ clones I have no idea. Some of us like variety in our soup you know
I played EVE Online for one month (I decided to forgo the free two weeks trail and plunge right in). I noticed three things about the game that I really loved: 1) almost no bugs/problems at all (I did get stuck in one of the exits from a base once...but I relogged and the problem was solved.), 2) the skill system is kinda cool, and 3) the economy seemed to be good and balanced.
Unfortunately there were several things that I absolutely hated: 1) being a ship sucks...bad!, 2) travel time in the game is beyond stupid!, 3) the game, at that time at least, was completely devoid of any meaningful content whatsoever! After "playing" the game for about a week and a half I found myself minimizing, more and more frequently, and surfing the interweb instead of playing. After three weeks I felt like a vampire had sucked all the energy from me after every little session...by that time I was only logging on to change skills. By the forth week I realized that the sandbox concept - as it was presented to me in EVE Online - was something I needed to fight hard against!
I just hope and pray that if they do make a Shadowrun MMOG it won't be anything like that nauseatingly awful EVE Online pos!
... Number two,player driven economies NEVER work,they ALWAYS alienate new players down the road and ALWAYS become broken.The ONLY way a player driven economy can work is if you have zero RMT activity,witch i have yet to see happen. .....
So I guess EVE Online's player driven economy doesn't work at all??? This post makes absolutely no sense.. I'm not going to bother debunking the rest of your post because this point alone just takes it for me
EVE Online crafting is so well thought out, even Tech II items require the Tech I equivalent. Meaning? Young crafters goods sell on the market. Veterans regularly purchase items produced by new crafters. I know, I've been crafting Tech I items for over a year in EVE Online.
If you are going to try to trash a concept, please play the game in question that uses it past 5 seconds so you have some credibility
Why people want to post crazy stuff about non-EQ clones I have no idea. Some of us like variety in our soup you know
I played EVE Online for one month (I decided to forgo the free two weeks trail and plunge right in). I noticed three things about the game that I really loved: 1) almost no bugs/problems at all (I did get stuck in one of the exits from a base once...but I relogged and the problem was solved.), 2) the skill system is kinda cool, and 3) the economy seemed to be good and balanced.
Unfortunately there were several things that I absolutely hated: 1) being a ship sucks...bad!, 2) travel time in the game is beyond stupid!, 3) the game, at that time at least, was completely devoid of any meaningful content whatsoever! After "playing" the game for about a week and a half I found myself minimizing, more and more frequently, and surfing the interweb instead of playing. After three weeks I felt like a vampire had sucked all the energy from me after every little session...by that time I was only logging on to change skills. By the forth week I realized that the sandbox concept - as it was presented to me in EVE Online - was something I needed to fight hard against!
I just hope and pray that if they do make a Shadowrun MMOG it won't be anything like that nauseatingly awful EVE Online pos!
If you didn't like being in a spaceship 24/7 why did you keep playing that long?
Eve isn't for everyone saying its a PoS cause you didn't like being in a ships and there wasn't enough hand holding content is stupid imo.
DiD you join a corp? did you fleet up and pvp? or did you just solo 100% of the time and act all anti-social like the rest of the first time MMO wow players?
If you fly solo 100% of the time you wont last long in Eve.
The important thing to realize about the answers that have been given in this thread, and the MMORPG industry as a whole is that things have gotten really, really confusing. We are actually several different customer bases asking for several different genres from the exact same developers. In my opinion, the different customer bases fit into the following camps, with a minor amount of cross-camping: 1) Tourists: These people are just looking for an interactive book to read. They get really upset if things are overly difficult for them to progress and understand the "story." They aren't necessarily interested in grouping that much, as that would require them to work around someone else's schedule and time frames. They actually should be enjoying single player adventure games. 2) Metagamers. Some call them powergamers. These people use the role playing statistics to build "toons" that have high chances of success at whatever part of the game is deemed important, through loot acquisition and adjusting scores to fit the environment. Parts of the game that are deemed important are usually either PvP, or "end game." These players should actually be enjoying a good round of fantasy baseball or football. 3) Achievers. I call them strategists. These people want to see if they can beat whatever gets put in front of them as a challenge. While this group actually fits in pretty decently with any kind of game genre, if these people aren't that interested in the last camp, they might as well be playing any other game. 4) Roleplayers. These are the people for whom the MMORPG genre was invented. They like imaginative, creative games that are not restricted by simple rules. They need the massive player networking to create simulated social environments for their social experimentation and interactive storytelling. Fantasy is usually their preferred style, as mystery, magic, heroic or villanous motives, and technological simplicity are some of the best tools for their style of play. Many people will say that more than one of these playerbases can be appeased by the MMORPG genre. I beg to differ. While the same person can be both a strategist and a roleplayer, anyone who is not in the roleplaying camp is really playing an entirely different game requiring an entirely different development focus. In my humble opinion, the most pressing issue for the MMORPG industry is for all of us to get together and unanimously come to the decision that the playerbases need to go their separate ways.
Interesting write-up and conclusions. I respectfully disagree with you on point 4 and the conclusion though.
Point 4:. MMORPGs are based on C-RPGs (Computer RPGs) which are based on two core elements of pen & paper RPGs; 1. character development, and 2. leaving the result of character actions to random functions (dice). Nowhere in MMORPGs or C-RPGs was role-playing a key factor. Some of the games add a hefty amount of storytelling, but that's not the same as role-playing. We'd be much better off killing that debate/misconception by just referring to these games as MMOGs, and skip the RP part of the name.
Conclusion: it seems to me that you're basically saying that people who play differently can't play together. I think MMOGs have proven that they can. From p&p D&D and Werewolf the Apocalypse to MUDs to UO, EQ and WoW, multi-player RPGs have appealed to many different people, for different reasons; storytelling, role-playing, character advancement, teamwork, competition, etc. Why should not MMOGs support and encourage all these? Because some of us can't accept that others play differently?
Once again, an interesting write-up, and I think it's important to break down the players into distinct groups (while remembering the huge grey area between them all) to try to understand the different motivations we have. However, as a role-player (p&p, LARP, MUDs, C-RPG, MMORPG) through 17 years I have no illusion that those of us who like to actually role-play our characters are in majority or in the right in any type of RPG except LARP. To say that the MMORPG genre was created for us is in my opinion missing the target.
My apologies if I misunderstood you on some parts. If so, I'll let it stand as a comment to those who have the opinion I thought you had. ;-)
Whoever says EvE economy is good got no clue. I mean if you look into the whole T2 prices (especially HAC's) and how to get the BPO's, it's just screwed up.
Currently the fans of this days mmorpg makes me sad. They all want simple quick gameplay, they no longer want to invest time into a character and build friendships in game, spending five years in a game is unheard of in this day and age because of these people. They all want to solo 99% of the time and never talk to anyone. Once they find out a game requires grouping its deemed unworthy. WoW has brought these people to us and it's killing the future of MMOs. We will never again see a MMO like UO, SWg-pre cu, eve and now Ryzom. Even a game that is new to a lot of people (ryzom) is getting a bad rep for requiring a group to fully explore. The I have a real life crowd is really pathetic, you can play any mmo little by little if you have a RL. I personally have a wife, full time job and four children and still get to play my 15-20+ hour a week MMO. These instant gradification players need to GTFO! of my mmo.
OMFG! I'm the happiest man in the gawddamn galaxy!
Point 4:. MMORPGs are based on C-RPGs (Computer RPGs) which are based on two core elements of pen & paper RPGs; 1. character development, and 2. leaving the result of character actions to random functions (dice). Nowhere in MMORPGs or C-RPGs was role-playing a key factor. Some of the games add a hefty amount of storytelling, but that's not the same as role-playing.
What CRPGs are you talking about? Hack-and-slash? That is a genre, but it has nothing to do with RPGs. A RPG is a RPG whether you put a C in front of it or not. You may have chosen to metagame most of your time playing, as did I when I was 15-17 years old playing Bard's Tale I, the Pool of Radiance, and their sequals. I would actually even hack the character files to create the best stats and equipment for my characters that I could.
That is when I found out that it's a really boring way to play a roleplaying game. And those games were about roleplaying, if you paid close attention.
I also used to play MUDs and MMOs in college. This one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon's_Gate) was one of my favorites. I actually ended up playing it for a while again about 15 years later when I found it had been re-established and was available via telnet for about $10/month. It was just as much fun as I remembered it being while in college. If you read the descripton in Wikipedia, you'll note that the game was heavily roleplaying-based and tried to hide numbers whenever it could. I also never ran into any spoonfeeding linear quests while I was playing. I wonder why...
Your impression of the genre is actually antiquated, it's just not antiquated enough. The really old games were all about roleplaying. It was the somewhat newer MMOs (which most people now consider ancient) that really corrupted the industry by catering to certain cliental that they shouldn't have.
Whoever says EvE economy is good got no clue. I mean if you look into the whole T2 prices (especially HAC's) and how to get the BPO's, it's just screwed up.
So the whole entire economy sucks because you want to complain about something being overpriced? It's risk vs reward. You want to fly something overpowered like a Titan/Dread/Carrier, etc fine but if you lose it will cost you a lot more then T1 ships. Encourages veterans to fly cheaper ships to keep warfare balanced out
If you cant see the benefits to that then just go play WoW where everyone always wears their best gear. Perhaps you were not there at launch so let me fill you in. Raiders stomped the living daylights out of pvpers in pvp. This is what happenes when there is no risk vs reward, veterans will stomp the crap out of you 24/7 because they will always bring their best equipment to every fight
Do you want everyone to fly a Titan in EVE? If not then quit complaining. Without the price hikes everyone will be able to fully insure their ships. I fly tech 2 ships all the time and pay the price jumps. Everyone deals with that just fin
It's a perfect balance. Veterans are discouraged from bringing their best equipment due to high risks. Newbies suffer virtually no penalty with fully insurable T1 ships. I don't read anyone at all complaining bout this on the boards
Also I saw overpriced items all the time in World of Warcraft auction house anyway. So even if this is an issue it is one shared across virtually any MMO where goods can be traded.
I think its a really bad sign when peoiple actually defend thier right to not wanting more features and freedom in MMOs.
Dont think i ever have heard that before. Most players talk about what more they want in a MMO, not that they have to much already! And thats especially bad right now, when we have almost feature free MMOs out there.
When i played Pre CU SWG, i had two jobs and a family. I used to play with a 16-19 year old dude from Denmark, and i think he played about 40 hours every week. I played about five. Still we could play togeather and had a lot of fun. Thats something thats would be impossible in a lesser MMOs. You can only do that in a sandbox game.
Point 4:. MMORPGs are based on C-RPGs (Computer RPGs) which are based on two core elements of pen & paper RPGs; 1. character development, and 2. leaving the result of character actions to random functions (dice). Nowhere in MMORPGs or C-RPGs was role-playing a key factor. Some of the games add a hefty amount of storytelling, but that's not the same as role-playing.
What CRPGs are you talking about? Hack-and-slash? That is a genre, but it has nothing to do with RPGs. A RPG is a RPG whether you put a C in front of it or not. You may have chosen to metagame most of your time playing, as did I when I was 15-17 years old playing Bard's Tale I, the Pool of Radiance, and their sequals. I would actually even hack the character files to create the best stats and equipment for my characters that I could.
That is when I found out that it's a really boring way to play a roleplaying game. And those games were about roleplaying, if you paid close attention.
I also used to play MUDs and MMOs in college. This one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon's_Gate) was one of my favorites. I actually ended up playing it for a while again about 15 years later when I found it had been re-established and was available via telnet for about $10/month. It was just as much fun as I remembered it being while in college. If you read the descripton in Wikipedia, you'll note that the game was heavily roleplaying-based and tried to hide numbers whenever it could. I also never ran into any spoonfeeding linear quests while I was playing. I wonder why...
Your impression of the genre is actually antiquated, it's just not antiquated enough. The really old games were all about roleplaying. It was the somewhat newer MMOs (which most people now consider ancient) that really corrupted the industry by catering to certain cliental that they shouldn't have.
I'm actually talking about the very games you mention. You had to remind me of all those hours I spent in Valingen Graveyard and Sokol Keep, didn't you? :-p Sounds like you meta-gamed them a lot more than I did though.
Where you say the really old games were all about role-playing, I say they are all - from p&p D&D to the upcoming WAR - games to be played as each person wishes to play them. That you choose to role-play in them doesn't make that their purpose or intent, nor does the "RP" in the genre name. The RPG stamp on computer games stems from the p&p game systems (in the vast majority of cases - there are always exceptions), not the role-playing part of the p&p games.
In any case, you or I have no right to say people of different mindsets shouldn't be playing the games (or playing others instead), nor that they're playing them wrong. Basically saying "this genre is ours - everybody else get the heck out" is simply not something I will agree to. I'll easily settle for disagreeing though, as I consider the idea of these and other forums to share opinions, not try to force one's own opinions on others (nor insult's others or their opinions, but hey, it's the internet).
I really do hope we'll get more niche games for those of us looking for that game which is exactly right (Dragon's Gate sounds interesting as a concept to turn into an MMOG, btw). That doesn't mean games shouldn't cater to multiple crowds, letting each play it as they please.
To the OP i have NEVER heard any thing about players wanting linear games,so right there not sure what you getting at. I have. *awkward silence* Look harder. In this thread, for instance. Number two,player driven economies NEVER work,they ALWAYS alienate new players down the road and ALWAYS become broken.The ONLY way a player driven economy can work is if you have zero RMT activity,witch i have yet to see happen. Training what you want in a skill based system,is FAKE.It is not a skill system at all, it is just mathematics ,puting numbers into slots.In the end the chat gets spammed with all players asking what is the best build,and players all become the same.Another reason that system stinks is that your MMORPG title just got thrown out the window.There is no such thing as a class anymore,how would like to call every player i nthe game a HYBRID?I for one would like every player to be something different,not a chat full of spam asking "HOW SHOULD I MAKE MY PLAYER".If you have ever played FFXI,you would know that just because you have a class there is different ways to play it...example Dancer,Ninja,even redmage can play various roles.FFXI uses set classes but you can change your subclass anytime,and do have some realistic choices in weapons. What a skill based system allows you to do is create your own class. This is always good for roleplaying, but it's especially important in a game where there is more than one thing to do. How would you work tradeskills into a class system? Most games make them secondary and dependent on your combat level. Everyone has to fight. There's no other way to advance, no player choice. In UO I remember people would make templates for treasure hunters, bounty hunters, paladins, thieves of all sorts, and more. Some of these were practical, some of them for roleplaying. Either way, a certain skill set was required that didn't exactly align with what was pre-programmed. No matter what system is in place i do NOT want to see wizard built players weilding cannons or large swords,it looks out of place and ruins the whole theme of a game.It would be like putting a HEMI into a VOLVO,who in there right mind would do that?. What kind of fiction have you been reading where characters NEVER have unexpected skills or abilities? Just take a well known example, Star Wars. Han's profession is "smuggler", but he's also pretty decent with a blaster. Is that really implicit when you hear someone is involved with the surreptitious transport of illegal goods? He also knew how to hotwire "that thing" in RoTJ. He showed some ability in survival on Hoth. He was a good pilot as well. You may say that these are all smuggler skills, but only because the smuggler we're most familiar with has them. Luke grew up on a farm, gained force abilities, and learned to fly an X-Wing really well. Is his "class" farmboy, jedi, or pilot? Anakin can build droids and vehicles, race pods, pilot, and is a jedi. He probably developed some leadership or command skills during the course of his lordship as well. Back on the skill system again,i can guarantee you it gets real annoying fast,when you see CHAT spammed every 10 seconds by players asking where to put there skills numbers.I mean it takes almost zero thought,yet i still see it over and over in games.At least with set classes ,the noob chat spam is limited to "SO what class has the most damage",another pet peeve i have is seeing that in chat. You're assuming the skills are all equivalent to each other, ie they're all for combat. If each skill is used for something different, the "best" template will depend on what you want to do, and it should be pretty obvious based on that. Also, I hardly consider new players asking for help with the game to be spam.
Second, the player base can't be trusted to control the economy and world. They will screw it up. A few who have far more time than the majority of the other players will control the market. Real skill isn't involved the primary currency is time. If you want a sand box economy go find one of those amazing stock market sim. Prove you're capable of handling a skill based economy, not one based upon time spent.
Not sure what this has to do with anything, but I have played an economic simulator based on real skill, www.miniconomy.nl, and I did fairly decent the two rounds I played.
Don't know why you think "handling" a different style of economy is a big deal.
Sandbox people are non/low achievers...they like the no-level aspect of "sandbox" MMOGs because it hides the fact that they are not very good at achieving things. In EVE Online all one has to do to gain skills is pay a monthly fee...the rest is done for you; your character gains skills whether you're AFK eating, sleeping, pooping, flunking Algabra, surfing porn, touching yourself, posting replies on MMORPG.com, etc., etc....
That's the way the Sandbox people like it...no challange! Sandbox people say that Level based games "hold your hand" but I say sandbox games "pick you up and carry you!".
I suppose it is a challenge to tolerate all that tedium while neglecting your real life and all other hobbies. You're right, I'm not l33t enough to spend all day going *click* *click* *click*. I can't seem to resist the temptation to go to school or work, or just out for some fresh air.
You're right, I'd prefer something easier, like competing with the rest of the playerbase in the economy, or leading a large community towards some common goal like a thriving player city. May not be as glamorous as clicking on mobs while watching a number slowly increment, but I'm just not cool enough for that.
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.
That doesn't mean games shouldn't cater to multiple crowds, letting each play it as they please.
You apparently haven't been witness to the tug-o-wars that are happening everywhere in these new-fangled MMOs (excluding, perhaps, the truly sandbox ones). This is what happens:
1) The game launches fairly successfully, but there is a lot of criticism coming from all four camps.
2) The designers, who have their own biases, adjust something in the game to appease one of the camps.
3) A different camp sees the change as a direct assault on their style of play, and a large number of them quit, complaining loudly as they do it. The ones who remain get even louder.
4) The cycle continues between 2 and 3 until either 1 camp essentially "wins" or the game shuts down from subscribers quiting.
5) If the winning camp isn't roleplayers, the other camps are not self-sustaining and the game dwindles into nothingness from low revenue and declining subscriber base.
I'm ok with developers making a multiplayer online game for the non-roleplaying camps. It's actually been done many times before. They just don't need to be called MMORPGs, or even MMOGs, and they are probably going to have problems with long term sustainability.
Simply put, many gamers have families, jobs/careers, and other real life intresets and don't have time to invest in sandbox style games. Instead of a game taking over most of our time we'd rather play something we can have fun on for an hour or two per day. You don't need to spend most of your free time on a game to forge lasting friendships with the people on said game, but many sandbox style games require a certain devotion to gain accomplishment. A devotion that some people can't give.
I have to disagree with this as I find it a sad excuse. Trust me my rl is far to hectic to spend hours upon hours in a game I would like to play yet I really would love to see and play a sandbox MMORPG. And if people are not able to make fun even if they have like only a few hourse to play they should try other genre's of games where the don't need to spend that much time instead of trying to turn this genre into "just" online games.
LOL .. people do what they find FUN in entertainment. They don't need to justify anything for their choices. You want to be in virtual world != everyone else wants to.
Most people just want online games. And this is exactly what this genre is. Online GAMES. Any developer would lose sight of that would have only a niche market.
People want some easy hack-n-slash with games. They don't want any headaches. I heard that players in Eve Online Corps even have regular meetings. I bet 99.9% of the market won't want to go anywhere close to that.
People want some easy hack-n-slash with games. They don't want any headaches. I heard that players in Eve Online Corps even have regular meetings. I bet 99.9% of the market won't want to go anywhere close to that.
I bet 95% of the games market is actually in Wii/XBox/PS3 sales. I guess we should just shut down production of anything that isn't a console first person shooter...
Comments
Sandbox people are non/low achievers...they like the no-level aspect of "sandbox" MMOGs because it hides the fact that they are not very good at achieving things. In EVE Online all one has to do to gain skills is pay a monthly fee...the rest is done for you; your character gains skills whether you're AFK eating, sleeping, pooping, flunking Algabra, surfing porn, touching yourself, posting replies on MMORPG.com, etc., etc....
That's the way the Sandbox people like it...no challange! Sandbox people say that Level based games "hold your hand" but I say sandbox games "pick you up and carry you!".
If you name achieve next level a challenge
. All you have write can be true only for some level based MMOs but not for sandbox. On WoW release I have leveled to 60 for something like 45 RL days. Thats just a joke to achive level cap for such short time. In any other sandbox mmo it will take you times much more to achive the stat/skill caps. The real challenge come in Sandbox where nothing is predefined and surprise and challenge is everywhere. Thats what ppls do not like in sandbox: they really have to think and know what to do in such game .
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
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LordOfDarkDesire
If you name achieve next level a challenge
. All you have write can be true only for some level based MMOs but not for sandbox. On WoW release I have leveled to 60 for something like 45 RL days. Thats just a joke to achive level cap for such short time. In any other sandbox mmo it will take you times much more to achive the stat/skill caps. The real challenge come in Sandbox where nothing is predefined and surprise and challenge is everywhere. Thats what ppls do not like in sandbox: they really have to think and know what to do in such game .
The only thing I found challeging about EVE Online was trying to have fun!
this is the big point the . wow has its fan bace of those who want defind content. for some we want a world where the players create the content. where players craft all the items. players build the citys. where dungons change. where we can remake our toon . with open skill bace. you know like SWG wan sob sob im about to cry
To the OP i have NEVER heard any thing about players wanting linear games,so right there not sure what you getting at.
Number two,player driven economies NEVER work,they ALWAYS alienate new players down the road and ALWAYS become broken.The ONLY way a player driven economy can work is if you have zero RMT activity,witch i have yet to see happen.
Training what you want in a skill based system,is FAKE.It is not a skill system at all, it is just mathematics ,puting numbers into slots.In the end the chat gets spammed with all players asking what is the best build,and players all become the same.Another reason that system stinks is that your MMORPG title just got thrown out the window.There is no such thing as a class anymore,how would like to call every player i nthe game a HYBRID?I for one would like every player to be something different,not a chat full of spam asking "HOW SHOULD I MAKE MY PLAYER".If you have ever played FFXI,you would know that just because you have a class there is different ways to play it...example Dancer,Ninja,even redmage can play various roles.FFXI uses set classes but you can change your subclass anytime,and do have some realistic choices in weapons.
No matter what system is in place i do NOT want to see wizard built players weilding cannons or large swords,it looks out of place and ruins the whole theme of a game.It would be like putting a HEMI into a VOLVO,who in there right mind would do that?.
Back on the skill system again,i can guarantee you it gets real annoying fast,when you see CHAT spammed every 10 seconds by players asking where to put there skills numbers.I mean it takes almost zero thought,yet i still see it over and over in games.At least with set classes ,the noob chat spam is limited to "SO what class has the most damage",another pet peeve i have is seeing that in chat.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Some of these questions are easy to answer.
Non combat skills, like fishing? Yea, those can be fun, and some games do add them. Usually there's some sort of crafting, and those are non-combat skills.
Avatar customization is good, and most players want it, and most devs know that and work on it.
There's nothing terrible about features like housing, but for players like myself, housing is a non issue. What can I do with a house? Decorate it? I have no desire to decorate a house. Keep stuff in it? Most games have a bank, and that works fine. I simply don't need a house in the game, it serves no purpose for me.
Level appropriate zones. Well, let's say there are mobs in the game that are powerful, and mobs that are weak. For example, in fantasy, let's say a wolf cub and a Dragon. In Sci Fi, let's say a storm trooper, and Darth Vader and hte Emperor.
Now, what if you start the game, and you can kill Darth Vader and the Emperor, or a Dragon? What's the point then, in ever fighting a wolf cub or a storm trooper? The game is over before it starts. I think you should work your way up, and not start at the top. That seems like common sense. You can't just go anywhere you want to, because you can't kill the Dragon, or Darth Vader when you start the game. If you can, then again, what's the point in going anywhere with lesser mobs? I just killed the Emperor. Now I should go fight some bounty hunters in Mos Esiley? Not likely, since I now rule the Galaxy.
The skills vs levels thing, is in my opinion, a red herring.
Both measure power level. I am a level 5 storm trooper. I have skill level 5 in laser pistol. Same thing.
If you can have every skill in the game, then all players are exactly the same. So instead of MORE diversity, it's actually less. Everyone will come up with the same template, and everyone will play that.
If you restrict skills, like you can only have so many, and the more melee skills you have the less healing skills you can have, then you're basically making classes anyway.
It's really not as much difference between skills and classes as people seem to think.
i find you post to be 90% on the money.
the few of us that can handle the "sandbox" type mmo is not the big numbers that game makers are looking for. that is why the WOW frame work has taken over.
swg was NEG to get more player peple left because of lack of content. only the diehart stayed.
we are looking for navarna, utoipa, it cant be found.
So I guess EVE Online's player driven economy doesn't work at all??? This post makes absolutely no sense.. I'm not going to bother debunking the rest of your post because this point alone just takes it for me
EVE Online crafting is so well thought out, even Tech II items require the Tech I equivalent. Meaning? Young crafters goods sell on the market. Veterans regularly purchase items produced by new crafters. I know, I've been crafting Tech I items for over a year in EVE Online.
If you are going to try to trash a concept, please play the game in question that uses it past 5 seconds so you have some credibility
Why people want to post crazy stuff about non-EQ clones I have no idea. Some of us like variety in our soup you know
i find you post to be 90% on the money.
the few of us that can handle the "sandbox" type mmo is not the big numbers that game makers are looking for. that is why the WOW frame work has taken over.
swg was NEG to get more player peple left because of lack of content. only the diehart stayed.
we are looking for navarna, utoipa, it cant be found.
That post was full of talk with no data to support his wild accusations. What failed was LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, DDO, City of Heroes, and the list goes on and on if we are talking pure subscriber data listed on MMO Charts. EVE Online has more subs then those and many more
And don't even discuss Second Life which has incredible yearly revenues.
If players cannot handle sandbox then I wonder why EVE Online has done so well- outgrossing countless EQ clones?
Could it be gamers actually like to see fresh new concepts every once in awhile? NOOOOOO! That can't be it right? Surely EVERYONE wants to play the same game over and over and over? I'm being sarcastic of course. I like to try different games and see new things
Anyway, if you want to say sandbox has failed then show me how eVE Online has failed. Show me how Second Life has failed. Show me hard data that excludes World of Warcraft of course. Any chart I have ever seen, EVE Online has taken the pie from linear mmorpgs. And I suspect it will of course take out Age of Conan once the remaining subscribers bounce in the next few months
i find you post to be 90% on the money.
the few of us that can handle the "sandbox" type mmo is not the big numbers that game makers are looking for. that is why the WOW frame work has taken over.
swg was NEG to get more player peple left because of lack of content. only the diehart stayed.
we are looking for navarna, utoipa, it cant be found.
Once you get a taste of the forbidden you will always search for it I suppose.
Sandbox to a point is great, but the community dictating everything only is attractive to the 2% of gamers that are hardcore and online 18 hours a day.
Currently the fans of this days mmorpg makes me sad.
They all want simple quick gameplay, they no longer want to invest time into a character and build friendships in game, spending five years in a game is unheard of in this day and age because of these people.
They all want to solo 99% of the time and never talk to anyone.
Once they find out a game requires grouping its deemed unworthy.
WoW has brought these people to us and it's killing the future of MMOs.
We will never again see a MMO like UO, SWg-pre cu, eve and now Ryzom.
Even a game that is new to a lot of people (ryzom) is getting a bad rep for requiring a group to fully explore.
The I have a real life crowd is really pathetic, you can play any mmo little by little if you have a RL.
I personally have a wife, full time job and four children and still get to play my 15-20+ hour a week MMO.
These instant gradification players need to GTFO! of my mmo.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
So I guess EVE Online's player driven economy doesn't work at all??? This post makes absolutely no sense.. I'm not going to bother debunking the rest of your post because this point alone just takes it for me
EVE Online crafting is so well thought out, even Tech II items require the Tech I equivalent. Meaning? Young crafters goods sell on the market. Veterans regularly purchase items produced by new crafters. I know, I've been crafting Tech I items for over a year in EVE Online.
If you are going to try to trash a concept, please play the game in question that uses it past 5 seconds so you have some credibility
Why people want to post crazy stuff about non-EQ clones I have no idea. Some of us like variety in our soup you know
I played EVE Online for one month (I decided to forgo the free two weeks trail and plunge right in). I noticed three things about the game that I really loved: 1) almost no bugs/problems at all (I did get stuck in one of the exits from a base once...but I relogged and the problem was solved.), 2) the skill system is kinda cool, and 3) the economy seemed to be good and balanced.
Unfortunately there were several things that I absolutely hated: 1) being a ship sucks...bad!, 2) travel time in the game is beyond stupid!, 3) the game, at that time at least, was completely devoid of any meaningful content whatsoever! After "playing" the game for about a week and a half I found myself minimizing, more and more frequently, and surfing the interweb instead of playing. After three weeks I felt like a vampire had sucked all the energy from me after every little session...by that time I was only logging on to change skills. By the forth week I realized that the sandbox concept - as it was presented to me in EVE Online - was something I needed to fight hard against!
I just hope and pray that if they do make a Shadowrun MMOG it won't be anything like that nauseatingly awful EVE Online pos!
So I guess EVE Online's player driven economy doesn't work at all??? This post makes absolutely no sense.. I'm not going to bother debunking the rest of your post because this point alone just takes it for me
EVE Online crafting is so well thought out, even Tech II items require the Tech I equivalent. Meaning? Young crafters goods sell on the market. Veterans regularly purchase items produced by new crafters. I know, I've been crafting Tech I items for over a year in EVE Online.
If you are going to try to trash a concept, please play the game in question that uses it past 5 seconds so you have some credibility
Why people want to post crazy stuff about non-EQ clones I have no idea. Some of us like variety in our soup you know
I played EVE Online for one month (I decided to forgo the free two weeks trail and plunge right in). I noticed three things about the game that I really loved: 1) almost no bugs/problems at all (I did get stuck in one of the exits from a base once...but I relogged and the problem was solved.), 2) the skill system is kinda cool, and 3) the economy seemed to be good and balanced.
Unfortunately there were several things that I absolutely hated: 1) being a ship sucks...bad!, 2) travel time in the game is beyond stupid!, 3) the game, at that time at least, was completely devoid of any meaningful content whatsoever! After "playing" the game for about a week and a half I found myself minimizing, more and more frequently, and surfing the interweb instead of playing. After three weeks I felt like a vampire had sucked all the energy from me after every little session...by that time I was only logging on to change skills. By the forth week I realized that the sandbox concept - as it was presented to me in EVE Online - was something I needed to fight hard against!
I just hope and pray that if they do make a Shadowrun MMOG it won't be anything like that nauseatingly awful EVE Online pos!
If you didn't like being in a spaceship 24/7 why did you keep playing that long?
Eve isn't for everyone saying its a PoS cause you didn't like being in a ships and there wasn't enough hand holding content is stupid imo.
DiD you join a corp? did you fleet up and pvp? or did you just solo 100% of the time and act all anti-social like the rest of the first time MMO wow players?
If you fly solo 100% of the time you wont last long in Eve.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Interesting write-up and conclusions. I respectfully disagree with you on point 4 and the conclusion though.
Point 4:. MMORPGs are based on C-RPGs (Computer RPGs) which are based on two core elements of pen & paper RPGs; 1. character development, and 2. leaving the result of character actions to random functions (dice). Nowhere in MMORPGs or C-RPGs was role-playing a key factor. Some of the games add a hefty amount of storytelling, but that's not the same as role-playing. We'd be much better off killing that debate/misconception by just referring to these games as MMOGs, and skip the RP part of the name.
Conclusion: it seems to me that you're basically saying that people who play differently can't play together. I think MMOGs have proven that they can. From p&p D&D and Werewolf the Apocalypse to MUDs to UO, EQ and WoW, multi-player RPGs have appealed to many different people, for different reasons; storytelling, role-playing, character advancement, teamwork, competition, etc. Why should not MMOGs support and encourage all these? Because some of us can't accept that others play differently?
Once again, an interesting write-up, and I think it's important to break down the players into distinct groups (while remembering the huge grey area between them all) to try to understand the different motivations we have. However, as a role-player (p&p, LARP, MUDs, C-RPG, MMORPG) through 17 years I have no illusion that those of us who like to actually role-play our characters are in majority or in the right in any type of RPG except LARP. To say that the MMORPG genre was created for us is in my opinion missing the target.
My apologies if I misunderstood you on some parts. If so, I'll let it stand as a comment to those who have the opinion I thought you had. ;-)
Whoever says EvE economy is good got no clue. I mean if you look into the whole T2 prices (especially HAC's) and how to get the BPO's, it's just screwed up.
OMFG! I'm the happiest man in the gawddamn galaxy!
What CRPGs are you talking about? Hack-and-slash? That is a genre, but it has nothing to do with RPGs. A RPG is a RPG whether you put a C in front of it or not. You may have chosen to metagame most of your time playing, as did I when I was 15-17 years old playing Bard's Tale I, the Pool of Radiance, and their sequals. I would actually even hack the character files to create the best stats and equipment for my characters that I could.
That is when I found out that it's a really boring way to play a roleplaying game. And those games were about roleplaying, if you paid close attention.
I also used to play MUDs and MMOs in college. This one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon's_Gate) was one of my favorites. I actually ended up playing it for a while again about 15 years later when I found it had been re-established and was available via telnet for about $10/month. It was just as much fun as I remembered it being while in college. If you read the descripton in Wikipedia, you'll note that the game was heavily roleplaying-based and tried to hide numbers whenever it could. I also never ran into any spoonfeeding linear quests while I was playing. I wonder why...
Your impression of the genre is actually antiquated, it's just not antiquated enough. The really old games were all about roleplaying. It was the somewhat newer MMOs (which most people now consider ancient) that really corrupted the industry by catering to certain cliental that they shouldn't have.
So the whole entire economy sucks because you want to complain about something being overpriced? It's risk vs reward. You want to fly something overpowered like a Titan/Dread/Carrier, etc fine but if you lose it will cost you a lot more then T1 ships. Encourages veterans to fly cheaper ships to keep warfare balanced out
If you cant see the benefits to that then just go play WoW where everyone always wears their best gear. Perhaps you were not there at launch so let me fill you in. Raiders stomped the living daylights out of pvpers in pvp. This is what happenes when there is no risk vs reward, veterans will stomp the crap out of you 24/7 because they will always bring their best equipment to every fight
Do you want everyone to fly a Titan in EVE? If not then quit complaining. Without the price hikes everyone will be able to fully insure their ships. I fly tech 2 ships all the time and pay the price jumps. Everyone deals with that just fin
It's a perfect balance. Veterans are discouraged from bringing their best equipment due to high risks. Newbies suffer virtually no penalty with fully insurable T1 ships. I don't read anyone at all complaining bout this on the boards
Also I saw overpriced items all the time in World of Warcraft auction house anyway. So even if this is an issue it is one shared across virtually any MMO where goods can be traded.
I think its a really bad sign when peoiple actually defend thier right to not wanting more features and freedom in MMOs.
Dont think i ever have heard that before. Most players talk about what more they want in a MMO, not that they have to much already! And thats especially bad right now, when we have almost feature free MMOs out there.
When i played Pre CU SWG, i had two jobs and a family. I used to play with a 16-19 year old dude from Denmark, and i think he played about 40 hours every week. I played about five. Still we could play togeather and had a lot of fun. Thats something thats would be impossible in a lesser MMOs. You can only do that in a sandbox game.
What CRPGs are you talking about? Hack-and-slash? That is a genre, but it has nothing to do with RPGs. A RPG is a RPG whether you put a C in front of it or not. You may have chosen to metagame most of your time playing, as did I when I was 15-17 years old playing Bard's Tale I, the Pool of Radiance, and their sequals. I would actually even hack the character files to create the best stats and equipment for my characters that I could.
That is when I found out that it's a really boring way to play a roleplaying game. And those games were about roleplaying, if you paid close attention.
I also used to play MUDs and MMOs in college. This one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon's_Gate) was one of my favorites. I actually ended up playing it for a while again about 15 years later when I found it had been re-established and was available via telnet for about $10/month. It was just as much fun as I remembered it being while in college. If you read the descripton in Wikipedia, you'll note that the game was heavily roleplaying-based and tried to hide numbers whenever it could. I also never ran into any spoonfeeding linear quests while I was playing. I wonder why...
Your impression of the genre is actually antiquated, it's just not antiquated enough. The really old games were all about roleplaying. It was the somewhat newer MMOs (which most people now consider ancient) that really corrupted the industry by catering to certain cliental that they shouldn't have.
I'm actually talking about the very games you mention. You had to remind me of all those hours I spent in Valingen Graveyard and Sokol Keep, didn't you? :-p Sounds like you meta-gamed them a lot more than I did though.
Where you say the really old games were all about role-playing, I say they are all - from p&p D&D to the upcoming WAR - games to be played as each person wishes to play them. That you choose to role-play in them doesn't make that their purpose or intent, nor does the "RP" in the genre name. The RPG stamp on computer games stems from the p&p game systems (in the vast majority of cases - there are always exceptions), not the role-playing part of the p&p games.
In any case, you or I have no right to say people of different mindsets shouldn't be playing the games (or playing others instead), nor that they're playing them wrong. Basically saying "this genre is ours - everybody else get the heck out" is simply not something I will agree to. I'll easily settle for disagreeing though, as I consider the idea of these and other forums to share opinions, not try to force one's own opinions on others (nor insult's others or their opinions, but hey, it's the internet).
I really do hope we'll get more niche games for those of us looking for that game which is exactly right (Dragon's Gate sounds interesting as a concept to turn into an MMOG, btw). That doesn't mean games shouldn't cater to multiple crowds, letting each play it as they please.
Second, the player base can't be trusted to control the economy and world. They will screw it up. A few who have far more time than the majority of the other players will control the market. Real skill isn't involved the primary currency is time. If you want a sand box economy go find one of those amazing stock market sim. Prove you're capable of handling a skill based economy, not one based upon time spent.
Not sure what this has to do with anything, but I have played an economic simulator based on real skill, www.miniconomy.nl, and I did fairly decent the two rounds I played.
Don't know why you think "handling" a different style of economy is a big deal.
Sandbox people are non/low achievers...they like the no-level aspect of "sandbox" MMOGs because it hides the fact that they are not very good at achieving things. In EVE Online all one has to do to gain skills is pay a monthly fee...the rest is done for you; your character gains skills whether you're AFK eating, sleeping, pooping, flunking Algabra, surfing porn, touching yourself, posting replies on MMORPG.com, etc., etc....
That's the way the Sandbox people like it...no challange! Sandbox people say that Level based games "hold your hand" but I say sandbox games "pick you up and carry you!".
I suppose it is a challenge to tolerate all that tedium while neglecting your real life and all other hobbies. You're right, I'm not l33t enough to spend all day going *click* *click* *click*. I can't seem to resist the temptation to go to school or work, or just out for some fresh air.
You're right, I'd prefer something easier, like competing with the rest of the playerbase in the economy, or leading a large community towards some common goal like a thriving player city. May not be as glamorous as clicking on mobs while watching a number slowly increment, but I'm just not cool enough for that.
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.
You apparently haven't been witness to the tug-o-wars that are happening everywhere in these new-fangled MMOs (excluding, perhaps, the truly sandbox ones). This is what happens:
1) The game launches fairly successfully, but there is a lot of criticism coming from all four camps.
2) The designers, who have their own biases, adjust something in the game to appease one of the camps.
3) A different camp sees the change as a direct assault on their style of play, and a large number of them quit, complaining loudly as they do it. The ones who remain get even louder.
4) The cycle continues between 2 and 3 until either 1 camp essentially "wins" or the game shuts down from subscribers quiting.
5) If the winning camp isn't roleplayers, the other camps are not self-sustaining and the game dwindles into nothingness from low revenue and declining subscriber base.
I'm ok with developers making a multiplayer online game for the non-roleplaying camps. It's actually been done many times before. They just don't need to be called MMORPGs, or even MMOGs, and they are probably going to have problems with long term sustainability.
I have to disagree with this as I find it a sad excuse. Trust me my rl is far to hectic to spend hours upon hours in a game I would like to play yet I really would love to see and play a sandbox MMORPG. And if people are not able to make fun even if they have like only a few hourse to play they should try other genre's of games where the don't need to spend that much time instead of trying to turn this genre into "just" online games.
LOL .. people do what they find FUN in entertainment. They don't need to justify anything for their choices. You want to be in virtual world != everyone else wants to.
Most people just want online games. And this is exactly what this genre is. Online GAMES. Any developer would lose sight of that would have only a niche market.
People want some easy hack-n-slash with games. They don't want any headaches. I heard that players in Eve Online Corps even have regular meetings. I bet 99.9% of the market won't want to go anywhere close to that.
I bet 95% of the games market is actually in Wii/XBox/PS3 sales. I guess we should just shut down production of anything that isn't a console first person shooter...
*sigh*