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Why wouldn't you want a player driven "sandbox"
Impacatus
Member Posts: 436
Yes, I know there have been a lot of sandbox threads lately, but I've always wondered about this. Everyone says that most people prefer linear mmos to sandbox mmos, but I really don't understand why, if this is true.
Why wouldn't you want player interaction that goes beyond grouping? Why wouldn't you want a dynamic player economy and politics that make players relevant to each other, that allow even people of different levels to play together? Why wouldn't you want the challenge of having to play people instead of just numbers?
Why wouldn't you want to allow players to make non-combat skills their focus?
What's so terrible about features like player housing and cities, or avatar customization?
Why do you like being forced to stick to the level appropriate zones instead of being allowed to go where you want?
What's so great about being forced to choose your class from a menu instead of just training what you want in a skill based system?
What do linear mmorpgs have that's incompatible with features like these?
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.
Comments
Just because a MMO labels themselves as a sandbox does not make it the end all of MMOs.
Like I said in an earlier post:
50% of all sandbox MMOs Ive played were great
50% of all sandbox MMOs Ive played were shitty.
It depends on how that MMO handles the sandbox experience
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
How many people are really interested in politics? I don't think there are that many in truth.
A realstic economy is nice for some, but most people would prefer something simple like WoWs auction house I believe. Traveling all over looking for people to buy from and getting all your items through real people who craft them is a bit boring for those who are doing the combat/hunting type of role in the game.
The freedom to do lots of different things in the game other then combat is OK with me, but it seems that combat has always been the most popular thing to do in MMOs even with games like Ultima Online and SWG where you could do other things. Perhaps it's because most poeple are not hunters in the real world anymore and they like to experience that role. Combat is also what is written about most in history because that is what most people seem interested in reading about for whatever reason.
The different areas give you a feeling of progression even if it's a fake one. You go to new areas with more powerful creatures and better loot. You can also go back to old zones and whip the monsters but if you like which makes you feel the growth in strength of your character.
A lot of the time it's nice to know what you are when you enter the game. If you start with a generic character and branch out from there you don't really have an identity. If you start with a class you know what to expect and everyone else knows what to expect from you. This makes it easy for developers to balance PvE combat around groups with a specific formation like Healer/Tank/DPS/CC.
My mates are bored of WOW which was their first mmorpg but I tried to egt them into mmorpgs before WOW and they wouldn't play them because of the monthly fee. However WOw broke that barrier for them and they're looking for a new mmorpg but they think everything is a peice of shit compared to WOW and wont try WAR because they don't want a WOW clone.
So really I just think previous good sandbox games were ahead of their time and they liked the complexity of EVE but hated the skill training because it was time based and they want to progress at their own pace and not always be behind veterans.
I wish SOE worked on the pre cu for these 3/4 years instead of ruining it because when I describe what the game was like to them they all love the idea of the player cities and the skill system and want complexity.
Now if someone released a great sandbox game with advertising that WAR has gotten then it will sell very well but the previous ones didn't because people just wernt prepared to pay a monthly fee.
For me it is not a question of sandbox, I favourize the word "content". I like the levels etc in my RPgames as a kind of progress, "you become stronger through enough training and experience".
Content.
City of Heroes/Villains, level based: Finest character-customization, meaningful grouping with all kinds of level.
DAoC, level-based: housing, (boring+expensive) crafting, many places to hunt in your level, controlled+rewarding 3-factions-pvp
Vanguard, level-based: very good crafting, diplomacy-system, virtual world
Horizons (Istaria), level-based: even better housing, good crafting, AND able to play all classes with a single character (EVE with levels *grins*)
WoW, levelbased: very good controls like FPS
and so on
These things into a single MMO and you don´t need sandbox. You want to play another role? Begin another toon. You need to level it? Look at it as a kind of "Skilling" like in EVE.
Of course you can build a house in EVE. It just costs you like 40.000.000.000(.000...not sure now) ingame currency unless you farm it (and skill it).
How many times does this have to come up before people realize there is a good reason that sandboxes are rare?
Sandbox games require independent thinking and creativity.
Most gamers, as in most people in life, need their hands held. Sandbox games typically throw you to the wolves and let you do whatever you want, most people are not built for that sort of thinking.
Tecmo Bowl.
Simply put, many gamers have families, jobs/careers, and other real life intresets and don't have time to invest in sandbox style games. Instead of a game taking over most of our time we'd rather play something we can have fun on for an hour or two per day. You don't need to spend most of your free time on a game to forge lasting friendships with the people on said game, but many sandbox style games require a certain devotion to gain accomplishment. A devotion that some people can't give.
Because sandbox games are much more complex. They need much more research and patience. They are like virutal world where you live outside of RL. Some peoples want just to spend hour or two when in front of the computer, others just want to get their next level/item - to achieve something for their char - to feel the reward for the time they have spend. Sandbox RPGs typically are much more involving than things I already have mentioned, they are much more massive/guild/society oriented - thats what most ppls do not like.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
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LordOfDarkDesire
Ok, so where does this idea come from that sandbox games take more to play than linear games?
Time Investment?
Pre-CU Star Wars Galaxies was one of the most casual friendly games out there. It's the linear games that force you to grind and grind on the leveling treadmill until you're deemed worthy of the next area of content. It's them that segregate players by level, forcing you to keep up with your friends if you want to keep playing with them. Sandbox lets you advance at your own pace and ideally provides roles for all players regardless of level.
Creativity?
Sandbox games encourage, but don't require creativity. You'd do perfectly well just consuming the content of others. Don't know what to do when you enter the game? Join up with someone and let them tell you.
Knowledge and Research?
There may be more to learn, but you don't have to know it all at once. Every game has a learning curve, I'll bet the main reason linear games seem easier to most people is the gameplay is the same as other games they've played. Even so, you learn as you play.
See, that's the point I'm trying to make. I understand that different people have different priorities, but there's no reason to want LESS out of a game.
For the record, I dislike level based not because I want to play more than one role, but because I want to make my own experience, not one packaged by the devs. Class/level reduces players to "level 10 warrior", "level 15 mage", "level 20 cleric". Once the devs start branding players like cattle, it becomes to easy to treat them as such. You start getting content for levels and classes instead of for people.
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.
I want to have some sort of direction.
Not held by the hand, but just a direction.
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Meow
1) Real politics is too much work. i want a game i can go in and play for 30min & quit. I have a real life,you know.
2) No problem about non-combat skills
3) It takes resources away from creating dungeons, quests & adventures zones. I would much rather have a new area to quest in than player housing which there is really nothing u can do with.
4) Unless u make all the zones the same difficulty, i don't see how u can avoid that .. whether it is skill-based or class based.
5) In a skilled based system, everyone will go for the most powerful, highest DPS skill build and everything will be cookie cutter (i.e. tank-mage in UO). I would much rather have the variety of classes.
6) Nope. But these are not good features. They have been tried and failed.
There is pretty much one reason why Developers stick with Classes. 1 reason and it is simple. When you talk to one at a conference they will be frank- they choose Classes because that's all they know
Many developers started out in Everquest- not Ultima Online. Others started out in Class based MUDs as well....
That is all they know. So the answer is simple- they employ Classes because they frankly can't envision anything else
This is why EA ruined Ultima Online with UO:R. They didn't know what they had. This is why Sony ruined SWG with NGE.
Now you have a whole new crop of devs getting influenced by World of Warcraft. sigh, guess what the next onslaught of games will clone.....
Some brave souls will fight against this Attack of the Clones but it will come from small studios that are looking to make their new original IPs to stand out. Look to these guys to take risks. It would be unfair to expect a publisher using an established IP to take any risks considering their Titan budgets
Personally I think any game is what you put into it.
For example I play a level based game, but to me it is close to what has been described as a sandbox. I can craft, adventure, explore, we have housing. player run econonmy (I think most games have that in one form or another). Since I like to explore more than anything else, I can. For me it is fun to run the higher level zones, and not get killed. it is also fun to go to the lower level zones, and find things I missed the first time through.
People who say that a in a sandbox game you need to use your imagination, and I agree you do. but the same holds true to linear based games, especially the roleplayers. You still need to imagine your that race/class and what you do has a meaning. and I think for most people it does.
Since most sandboxes have some form of pvp and I do know it is fairly popular. I say that the majority of those playing mmo's would just rather play a pve game. Maybe a little pvp would be fun for most, but not quite what has been talked about in sandbox games.
As far as Skilled based, I have a problem with that as far as it pertains to fantasy based games.
I am a big fan of fantasy books, and I have never read a book where you could be all things except for paladins, and that is a class
. other than that every books hero was what they were either a warrior, rogue, mage, or a healer of some type. I personally don't think you should combine abilities via skills.
For Sci-fi I have no restrictions, I think it is very possible to have varied skills.
But as to why people may like linear games (You know the hand holding games) Is after a hard day at work/school etc. and the stress of everyday living, they just want to go play a game with others of like mind. They don't want to worry about politics in a game, or so much of a challenge where it feels like work.
But this is just my opinion.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The important thing to realize about the answers that have been given in this thread, and the MMORPG industry as a whole is that things have gotten really, really confusing. We are actually several different customer bases asking for several different genres from the exact same developers. In my opinion, the different customer bases fit into the following camps, with a minor amount of cross-camping:
1) Tourists: These people are just looking for an interactive book to read. They get really upset if things are overly difficult for them to progress and understand the "story." They aren't necessarily interested in grouping that much, as that would require them to work around someone else's schedule and time frames. They actually should be enjoying single player adventure games.
2) Metagamers. Some call them powergamers. These people use the role playing statistics to build "toons" that have high chances of success at whatever part of the game is deemed important, through loot acquisition and adjusting scores to fit the environment. Parts of the game that are deemed important are usually either PvP, or "end game." These players should actually be enjoying a good round of fantasy baseball or football.
3) Achievers. I call them strategists. These people want to see if they can beat whatever gets put in front of them as a challenge. While this group actually fits in pretty decently with any kind of game genre, if these people aren't that interested in the last camp, they might as well be playing any other game.
4) Roleplayers. These are the people for whom the MMORPG genre was invented. They like imaginative, creative games that are not restricted by simple rules. They need the massive player networking to create simulated social environments for their social experimentation and interactive storytelling. Fantasy is usually their preferred style, as mystery, magic, heroic or villanous motives, and technological simplicity are some of the best tools for their style of play.
Many people will say that more than one of these playerbases can be appeased by the MMORPG genre. I beg to differ. While the same person can be both a strategist and a roleplayer, anyone who is not in the roleplaying camp is really playing an entirely different game requiring an entirely different development focus. In my humble opinion, the most pressing issue for the MMORPG industry is for all of us to get together and unanimously come to the decision that the playerbases need to go their separate ways.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
That is amazingly insightful, and I'm very inclined to agree.
Anyways, I'm hearing that skill based systems result in players trying to get the best template. Well, in that case it's a good thing that all the players of linear mmorpgs are true roleplayers who never choose their race, class or equipment for metagame reasons.
I'm also hearing that the presence of player politics makes the game less casual friendly. How? How much of your time does the government demand in real life? Probably a lot if you work for them. Otherwise, you just need to stay out of their way and occasionally deal with some bureaucracy. The nature of mmos would eliminate the need for bureaucracy, so how exactly would an in game government require any extra time?
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.
Reading these posts is so interesting. Its almost as if some people are from amother planet. But of course its just different opinions.
Hmmm honestly im more of a roleplayer and also an achiever, but I also prefer adventuring I dont fully agree with you though and your missing other crowds in there. Many of us prefer a variety of elements in a mmorpg for it to last a long time in our daily lives.
I have to disagree with this as I find it a sad excuse. Trust me my rl is far to hectic to spend hours upon hours in a game I would like to play yet I really would love to see and play a sandbox MMORPG. And if people are not able to make fun even if they have like only a few hourse to play they should try other genre's of games where the don't need to spend that much time instead of trying to turn this genre into "just" online games.
I have to disagree with this as I find it a sad excuse. Trust me my rl is far to hectic to spend hours upon hours in a game I would like to play yet I really would love to see and play a sandbox MMORPG. And if people are not able to make fun even if they have like only a few hourse to play they should try other genre's of games where the don't need to spend that much time instead of trying to turn this genre into "just" online games.
I'd really like to know who started the rumor that sandbox games require a greater time commitment. I see it over and over, and I have no idea where it comes from.
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.
Fear of the unknown.
Important:
* Theres no silver bullets.
Why I wouldnt want a player driven sandbox? Well basically it all comes down to humanity as a whole is filled with psychopaths and douchebags and cant be trusted without serious reprocussusions for their actions. I'm going to go out on a limb and say many of the pro-sandboxers are one and the same as the pro-FFA loot-all-your-shit griefers. Without consequences people will be all the asshole they can be to others.
most people seriously wouldnt know what to do with their "online selves" if they didnt have someone telling them what to do.
First the people constantly asking for a sandbox game are proving they can't handle the sandbox concept. Reason there are free style MMOs out right now. Go and find them. Eve Online, UO, and Second Life, all come to mind.
Second, the player base can't be trusted to control the economy and world. They will screw it up. A few who have far more time than the majority of the other players will control the market. Real skill isn't involved the primary currency is time. If you want a sand box economy go find one of those amazing stock market sim. Prove you're capable of handling a skill based economy, not one based upon time spent.
Third, sandboxes failed in the MMO industry. The player base has proven several times now with high profile games, SWG, SIMS Online, to name two that they can't handle a sandbox game.
Lastly, you can build your own sandbox in NWN. If you're so creative and skilled, build a world in NWN and invite your friends to play it.
So really, stop asking for a sandbox game, you can't handle it.