Gamer's Bill of Rights

Kryogenic · August 2008

I just finished reading this article on The Gamer's Bill of Rights. For those that don't wish to click a blind link here is a copy and paste of the Gamer's Bill of Rights:

The Gamer's Bill of Rights:

1) Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.

2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.

3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.

4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.

5) Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.

6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.

7) Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.

8) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.

9) Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.

10) Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.

This was created by some people at an indie company called Stardock. They aim to make PC game developers step up the quality of the PC gaming industry as a whole. I think that it's a very noble and idealistic goal to aspire to, but the major companies, who have been steadily flushing crappy games our way, aren't going to turn over a new leaf without some sort of major profit loss.

PC gaming has really gone down hill, and when it comes to MMORPGs it's glaringly obvious. Too many games get released that are blatantly unfinished. These companies ask for not only a box purchase, but a monthly subscription rate, and the customers end up paying to beta test an unfinished and buggy game. There are also examples outside the MMORPG genre. A big one was Vivendi releasing Tribes Vengeance as a full product. You install the game, load it up, and realize that you can't even make a Tribe (aka a Guild or Clan) in Tribes Vengeance. There was also no anti-hacking measures included. The players were promised a patch to add punkbuster and to add in the missing features of a game we paid full price for.

4 years later and not only has that patch not come, but you can still occasionally see the Tribes Vengeance boxes in stores.

All in all, the PC gaming industry's treatment of it's customers has gone from bad to worse. The good news is that the potential for change exists, but it will never happen unless we the consumers, we the gamers, unite and stop supporting these negative actions buy purchasing and paying to play unfinished, buggy games, with little to none, or poor customer support.

skeaser · August 2008

Originally posted by Kryogenic

I just finished reading this article on The Gamer's Bill of Rights. For those that don't wish to click a blind link here is a copy and paste of the Gamer's Bill of Rights:
The Gamer's Bill of Rights:
1) Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
Agreed
2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
You have the right to demand whatever you want now. The right to actually getting finished games is something else.
3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
We talking MMOs or all games? I mean should gamers expect meaningful updates to Halo3? Also, again, you already have the right to expect whatever you want, getting it is another matter.
4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.
Same, demand what you want, you have that right. And with MMOs how do you expect to run it without going through the updater? Client HAS TO match server.
5) Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.
Same about expectations. Most games will run on the minimum requirement machines, just on low settings. A lot of issues are user config.
6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.
This I can agree with, but again, you can expect what you want.
7) Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.
While I would like this idea, in all fairness, I could see a smaller fee for redownloads because bandwidth aint free. Again with the expect thing.
8) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.
Everyone is a potential criminal. Finally it doesn't say expect or demand
9) Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.
Again with the right to demand. Suggest a better method of DRM.
10) Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.
This is horrible DRM anyway, it's very easy to spoof and doesn't protect the company. They are trying to keep from losing money, but hackers are always a step ahead it seems.

This was created by some people at an indie company called Stardock. They aim to make PC game developers step up the quality of the PC gaming industry as a whole. I think that it's a very noble and idealistic goal to aspire to, but the major companies, who have been steadily flushing crappy games our way, aren't going to turn over a new leaf without some sort of major profit loss.
PC gaming has really gone down hill, and when it comes to MMORPGs it's glaringly obvious. Too many games get released that are blatantly unfinished. These companies ask for not only a box purchase, but a monthly subscription rate, and the customers end up paying to beta test an unfinished and buggy game. There are also examples outside the MMORPG genre. A big one was Vivendi releasing Tribes Vengeance as a full product. You install the game, load it up, and realize that you can't even make a Tribe (aka a Guild or Clan) in Tribes Vengeance. There was also no anti-hacking measures included. The players were promised a patch to add punkbuster and to add in the missing features of a game we paid full price for.
4 years later and not only has that patch not come, but you can still occasionally see the Tribes Vengeance boxes in stores.
All in all, the PC gaming industry's treatment of it's customers has gone from bad to worse. The good news is that the potential for change exists, but it will never happen unless we the consumers, we the gamers, unite and stop supporting these negative actions buy purchasing and paying to play unfinished, buggy games, with little to none, or poor customer support.

While I commend their actions as noble, all I see are more words that won't lead to anything.

Omega3 · August 2008

Originally posted by Kryogenic

I just finished reading this article on The Gamer's Bill of Rights. For those that don't wish to click a blind link here is a copy and paste of the Gamer's Bill of Rights:
The Gamer's Bill of Rights:
1) Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
Ridiculous, it's like a refunding a guy who bought a X360 game while he has a PS3
2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
Or read reviews and not buy it.
3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
Agree.
4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.
Unrealistic. if an update, even minor, is made to the game, it must be applied to everyone's client before entering the gameworld, otherwise some people have an advantage, and others do not. Or it could concern a bug or an exploit that needed a fix.
5) Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.
Agree, because honestly, min requirements never ran any game properly. All lies to make people buy games.
6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.
Does it exist? never heard of it.
7) Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.
see 6.
8) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.
Right to copy? Account banning? what's the problem...
9) Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.
Examples please.
10) Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.
WoW? he..

Except good will of the developpers/publishers, i don't see how any pressure could be made on them. Those who make the law don't care about petty gamers request, it's therefore a customer service issue.

Jenneroflok · August 2008

As someone who started playing computer games on an IBM PCjr that I bought within a few weeks of it's release and has been playing all type of Computer games Since Wizardry 1. I can tell you, short of a 100% boycott of the industry none of those demands will be adopted by the industry as a whole. And even if we do get a 100% boycott going, they industry will more then likely turn to the console market and let the PC game indusrty die.

skeaser · August 2008

Originally posted by Omega3

Originally posted by Kryogenic

I just finished reading this article on The Gamer's Bill of Rights. For those that don't wish to click a blind link here is a copy and paste of the Gamer's Bill of Rights:
The Gamer's Bill of Rights:
1) Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
Ridiculous, it's like a refunding a guy who bought a X360 game while he has a PS3
2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
Or read reviews and not buy it.
3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
Agree.
4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.
Unrealistic. if an update, even minor, is made to the game, it must be applied to everyone's client before entering the gameworld, otherwise some people have an advantage, and others do not. Or it could concern a bug or an exploit that needed a fix.
5) Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.
Agree, because honestly, min requirements never ran any game properly. All lies to make people buy games.
6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.
Does it exist? never heard of it.
7) Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.
see 6.
8) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.
Right to copy? Account banning? what's the problem...
9) Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.
Examples please.

10) Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.
WoW? he..

Except good will of the developpers/publishers, i don't see how any pressure could be made on them. Those who make the law don't care about petty gamers request, it's therefore a customer service issue.

For number 6, Bioshock installed a rootkit and some other games have as well. Hidden software that is practically malware.

For number 9, http://games.slashdot.org/games/08/05/07/1523242.shtml Spore and Mass Effect, for example require the game to "call home" periodically to verify legit.

For number 5, I disagree, minimum specs normally will work at lowest settings only and only if the computer is configured properly. If it requires 512 MB RAM and you have 512 MB but you try to run in windowed mode on Vista with Aero on, you will have problems.

For number 10, I haven't had a game in a while that required CD in drive. Last I remember was Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft.

BaronJuJu · August 2008

My reply from another post on this:

"That Bill of Rights is worthless. Its so vague and generic that NO company out there that bought into it would be releasing games at all."

Its nice that the indie developers are thinking about the customer, but lets be honest here, there is no way any major gaming company will even come close to adopting that. Just take a look on these forums as an example. Have someone describe what a "finished state" game or "meaningful updates" is and you are going to get about 1,000 different replies and none of them agreeing.

Again, nice to see, but its just wishful thinking.

CactusmanX · August 2008

I can only agree to 6, other than that I don't see players have a right to the other points, this is mostly wanting to tell other game companies how they should run themselves. And the whole right to demand thing is silly, you can demand whatever you want, you are not barred from doing so, I take that it means right to force companies to :fill in the blank:.

If they want to improve the quality of games lead by example.

Blodpls · August 2008

Stardock make some quality games as well, Sins of the Solar Empire was number 1 in the UK/US sales charts for ages. Nice to see companies respect their customers.

altairzq · August 2008

This is a very good iniciative. Surprisingly, many gamers are against their own rights. Guess that makes them feel they are very cool and self suficient.

tvalentine · August 2008

why should we have rights? The only right we should and do have is the right to decide to buy or not to buy a game.

skeaser · August 2008

Originally posted by tvalentine

why should we have rights? The only right we should and do have is the right to decide to buy or not to buy a game.

I agree with you, but there are a couple of other things.

1. Getting what you pay for. If I go buy a game because the box says it has "X FEATURE" and it doesn't, that's not right, but that's consumer rights in general.

2. I also should not have to worry about software installing malware against my will with no mention in the EULA or elsewhere of these activities.

Other than that, I agree with you. If companies can get people to buy crap of their own free will, then I say no harm no foul.

bahamut1 · August 2008

Originally posted by skeaser
For number 6, Bioshock installed a rootkit and some other games have as well. Hidden software that is practically malware.

WoW installs TWO programs. One is Malware, and the other is anti-spamware. In fact, it is one of these that allows them to sue gold sellers with no worries about whether or not they will win. They are guaranteed a successful case as gold sellers spam clearly violates existing software legalities. Big brother is watching, logging, and will slam dunk you if you do wrong.

DragonMyth88 · August 2008

I like this and maybe we should have rules on how the community should act just becuase you hide behind a screen doesnt mean you need to act like you lost all sanity.

Loben · August 2008

This is possibly one of the nerdiest things I have ever read, and that's saying a lot.

Torak · August 2008

You know what "rights" you have?

You have the right not to buy a game. You have the ability to act like a responsible consumer and research a game before you spend money on it.

You have the "right" not to listen to advertising and fanboi hype and read reviews and articles about the game.

You have the "right" not to a blind fanboi if you chose and be objective about what you spend your money on.

You have the "right" NOT to pre-order.

You have the "right" to play something else if you don't like any aspect of a game.

EDIT

You have the "right" to try demos and free trials if they are available before you purchase a game and to NOT buy a game that doesn't have one.

Gamers bill of rights, whatever. Companies only care about ONE thing, your money. They could give a flying f**k about a bill of rights to make you the consumer happy. As long as gamers continue to act like f**king consumer knotheads, companies will continue to do what they want.

Go ahead, pre-order something else.

"Age of Generic Evergrind in World of Horizons: Battle for the Lineage of the Burning Sea Saga Edition",is coming out soon. It comes with a free "sucker born every minute hat" for every character you make that gives you a +0.01 to your Wisdom score...and a map...and something shiny.

Theocritus · August 2008

Well number 1 would be shot down right off the bat......I dont think hardly anyone takes back open software, especially games, because then you'd just have people buy it, load it on their PC, then claim it doesn't work and demand their money back......There is no way you could ever offer money back for PC games.....The only thing I have ever seen any store do is offer to give you another copy of the same game if they think the disk might be bad......Other than that its buyer beware.....

Unknown · August 2008

The only right we will ever have is the right to vote with our wallet and spread good or bad word of mouth. That's really all we need. After all, it never costs you more then $50 or so to risk on a game, so it's not like it breaks your wallet to get a lemon of a game.

That being said, every point mentioned adds value to a game, which in a competitive marketplace will often result in competitive advantage. Maybe your list should be changed to elements that add value to the gaming experience...

DeserttFoxx · August 2008

A lot of people have no clue what DRM is, they have no idea what half of these protection programs install onto their comptuer.

The thing is, i pay attention to a lot of the games i buy, and i buy very few these days, but ive played everything. I have zero fath, religious or otherwise, i dont believe in god so i sure as hell dont believe in a game company that releases a broken game. If a game is broken in open beta, it will be broken at launch and i have no plans on playing the game for 3-6 months while i hope it gets fixed.

I agree wit a lot of these rights, unfortuantly a lot of gamers are too dim to do the same, PC gaming has gone down, because they have relied heavily on the patch process, because patching is so acceptable they are testing the water on what is an acceptable ommisison at launch. Vanguard left out their player models, age of conan left out the DX10 engine support, warhammer basically did a lot of false advertising.

Single player games are getting even more braizen, having no ideaon how to go about combatting pirating, they are going about including a lot of intrusive software programs, programs that basically act as trojans. Forcing you to be online to play a single player game, forcing you to contantly sign int a website, stelth checking your computer for any program they dont find acceptable, not even hack programs but any program.

These anti piracy programs conflict with most operating systems, and people who are completly computer illterate end up spending 60 bucks ona game they cant play, and dev companies dont tell them shit, and these people are forced to download cracks, to play the games they paid for.

tvalentine · August 2008

Originally posted by Torak

You know what "rights" you have?
You have the right not to buy a game. You have the ability to act like a responsible consumer and research a game before you spend money on it.
You have the "right" not to listen to advertising and fanboi hype and read reviews and articles about the game.
You have the "right" not to a blind fanboi if you chose and be objective about what you spend your money on.
You have the "right" NOT to pre-order.
You have the "right" to play something else if you don't like any aspect of a game.
EDIT
You have the "right" to try demos and free trials if they are available before you purchase a game and to NOT buy a game that doesn't have one.

Gamers bill of rights, whatever. Companies only care about ONE thing, your money. They could give a flying f**k about a bill of rights to make you the consumer happy. As long as gamers continue to act like f**king consumer knotheads, companies will continue to do what they want.
Go ahead, pre-order something else.
"Age of Generic Evergrind in World of Horizons: Battle for the Lineage of the Burning Sea Saga Edition",is coming out soon. It comes with a free "sucker born every minute hat" for every character you make that gives you a +0.01 to your Wisdom score...and a map...and something shiny.

i totally agree, i dont know why people want more of these "rights", what we have now is sufficient and people need to quit complaining.

tvalentine · August 2008

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

I agree wit a lot of these rights, unfortuantly a lot of gamers are too dim to do the same, PC gaming has gone down, because they have relied heavily on the patch process, because patching is so acceptable they are testing the water on what is an acceptable ommisison at launch. Vanguard left out their player models, age of conan left out the DX10 engine support, warhammer basically did a lot of false advertising.

LOL pc gaming gone down? Are you high? PC Gaming and gaming in general is the highest its ever been, your just making wrong assumptions

Tuxide · August 2008

I bought Tribes Vengeance and Homeworld 2 right when they first came out. Both ended up not being anywhere near as successful as their predecessors and became major flops because they alienated way too many newcomers to the franchises.

DeserttFoxx · August 2008

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

I agree wit a lot of these rights, unfortuantly a lot of gamers are too dim to do the same, PC gaming has gone down, because they have relied heavily on the patch process, because patching is so acceptable they are testing the water on what is an acceptable ommisison at launch. Vanguard left out their player models, age of conan left out the DX10 engine support, warhammer basically did a lot of false advertising.

LOL pc gaming gone down? Are you high? PC Gaming and gaming in general is the highest its ever been, your just making wrong assumptions

Ive played every game that ha scome out in the past 6 years, if you think pc gaming this year is the highest its ever been, you are the one who is clearly delusional.

Name one PC game that was good and not just a graphical cock tease, focusing on looks and nothing else.

rawRzorz · August 2008

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

I agree wit a lot of these rights, unfortuantly a lot of gamers are too dim to do the same, PC gaming has gone down, because they have relied heavily on the patch process, because patching is so acceptable they are testing the water on what is an acceptable ommisison at launch. Vanguard left out their player models, age of conan left out the DX10 engine support, warhammer basically did a lot of false advertising.

LOL pc gaming gone down? Are you high? PC Gaming and gaming in general is the highest its ever been, your just making wrong assumptions

Ive played every game that ha scome out in the past 6 years, if you think pc gaming this year is the highest its ever been, you are the one who is clearly delusional.

Name one PC game that was good and not just a graphical cock tease, focusing on looks and nothing else.

It wasn't released this year, however Half Life 2 is in my opinion an excellant game, and its not a game focusing on looks.

Angelbound · August 2008

I agree with everything except the fact that an online game should be a single player game if the customer wants to play it single player, some designs are meant to be played online and not single player at all I dont see how anyone could come up with this bill of right in the first place.

Sadly we the consumers are taking alot of abuse in the gaming world including consoles there is so much shovelware on consoles now days even since ps2 that its dumb, of course there are still alot of good games out there, but most of all pc games are the worst when it comes to being unfinished, we really do need to do something about this, we need to stand up for change and unite against this greedy companys in many forms but in a civilized way.

Also there is alot of abuse when it comes to companys not just in the gaming industry but about 10 years ago it snuck its way into the gaming industry as well and it grew but I dont think it will for much longer ive realized in stores lately they are taking pc games off the shelfs or lowering the selection quite a bit, I have a feeling a few companys will arise over these jerks. I can name one company which is turbine they are truly excellent with lotro right now, and are not afraid to appeal to a certain crowd.

Also cryptic isnt bad either they always do there own thing instead of what the players want all the time.

Torak · August 2008

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by Torak

You know what "rights" you have?
You have the right not to buy a game. You have the ability to act like a responsible consumer and research a game before you spend money on it.
You have the "right" not to listen to advertising and fanboi hype and read reviews and articles about the game.
You have the "right" not to a blind fanboi if you chose and be objective about what you spend your money on.
You have the "right" NOT to pre-order.
You have the "right" to play something else if you don't like any aspect of a game.
EDIT
You have the "right" to try demos and free trials if they are available before you purchase a game and to NOT buy a game that doesn't have one.

Gamers bill of rights, whatever. Companies only care about ONE thing, your money. They could give a flying f**k about a bill of rights to make you the consumer happy. As long as gamers continue to act like f**king consumer knotheads, companies will continue to do what they want.
Go ahead, pre-order something else.
"Age of Generic Evergrind in World of Horizons: Battle for the Lineage of the Burning Sea Saga Edition",is coming out soon. It comes with a free "sucker born every minute hat" for every character you make that gives you a +0.01 to your Wisdom score...and a map...and something shiny.

i totally agree, i dont know why people want more of these "rights", what we have now is sufficient and people need to quit complaining.

You know whats funny? The "rights" that thing is asking for, much of it was caused by players pirating games to begin with like the limited downloads / installs, the intrusive software, the online varification for singleplayer modes, the required internet connections, disk in the drive...

The PC gaming community did this to themselves. Its estimated that something like 80% of PC games being played online are pirated copies.

And players wonder why companies always try for consoles and PC's are always last in line for everything.

Angelbound · August 2008

Please thats not why, its because the companys want sales it was an excuse so they can look good while doing it in some form justifying what they are doing but that is far from there intentions trust me.

And we should not have to pay for what the pc community has done in the past in the first place.

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