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MMORPG.com is the bane of MMORPGs
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Nothing getting out of hand here... Admins have nothing to worry about...
Why is selling accounts or selling in-game items a problem? I still don't get it.
If the original owner is playing the character, or if some other guy is playing the character, it is still a character being played in game. Nothing wrong here that should affect the game.
If an item is acquired fairly in game, then why does it matter why I gave it to someone else? For free, or for real life cash, either way, I had it, and now somenbody else has it. I don't see a negative affect to the game.
I understand the concern that a player who does not have the experience may all of a sudden being playing a high level character or have or an item they have no idea how to use. But who does that effect really other than that person? Sure, maybe you grouped with a 55th level cleric and he didn't know what the hell he was doing and got your party killed, so now you know not to party with him. It is also possible that the original owner could have gotten you killed as well.
So, you see a guy running around with great gear. Maybe he didn't earn it. So what? Don't group with him. These MMORPG's are not meant to be who has the best gear the quickest. It is about how much fun YOU have. If you find fun in accomplishing tasks and getting the items yourself, then that is good for you. You will have enjoyed the game more than the guy who bought the uber sword of beer drinking for $100 on eBay.
The important thing to remember is, the game is not who can get to 50th level the fastest, or who can get the best gear first. The game is about whether or not YOU are having fun. So, have fun and let other people have fun their way.
If there is a problem like this (Lineage 2) ruining the game and the devs don't fix it, then quit.
The Adena farmers (or whatever) are an exception to the rule, not the norm. I am not saying it should be OK for the Adena farmers to do what they do. But a problem on such a huge scale should be fixed by the devs. All they need to do is make it not profitable for them.
Oh yes please, give us more rules that hinders our freedom...
The items are mine, i spent the time to get them, regardless of what the company says or if they are "virtual", I will consider all items or characters my own personal property. No one should be able or allowed to tell me what I do with my own stuff. If I wanted that id sexchange to a woman and move to Afghanistan.
I say the companies themself should make this trading more easy, set up a system for doing it for themself, if nothing else so THEY can get the cash that ebay "steals" from them. I am sure that eventually they will to.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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The concept of a game where the 'leaders', 'pioneers' or 'winners' or whatever else you want to call them are decided purely on the basis of how much money you spend on it is totally crap. What kind of game is that? It defo doesn't deserve the acronym mmorpg. If your supposed right to make cash out of a game has to suffer so be it. The gameplay comes first, that's the reason it exists, not to allow you to make money.
Undoubtably, games will apear based on this concept (there are some already). Developers are not angels and are in business to make money. If they see a market for this kind of thing then it's bound to be exploited by someone. These games that will be based on purchasing your items for real money are a totally seperate genre. The 2 different game types should not be mixed.
But lets face it, those people posting saying 'I have the right to sell my stuff' are posting purely out of personal greed and couldn't give a toss about anything else. All arguments about gameplay will completely bypass you because you are focussed on one thing only, $$.
MuHQ :: L2HQ :: LoM HQ :: RYLHQ
MMORPG
I just think you are trying to get the wrong thing out of your MMORPG experience. In an MMORPG, there is no real "winner"? MMORPG's are like a simulation of life, you play how you like and you enjoy yourself. Many people play these games and enjoy being low level and never try to really do much higher level stuff. Some people just like to run around and explore the world. There was a guy in UO that used to do a newspaper type website, he would run around as a ghost so he could go anywhere he wanted to without getting PK'd or attacked by monsters. There is just so much to do, the object of the game is not to be the highest level the quickest or to have the bext gear. It is to have fun, and everybody's idea of having fun is different.
Yes, there are games like this. Project Entropia is one and it is total crap. The game, not the concept. I have not seen a good game with this concept yet, but when one hits, the developers will probably get rich!!!
This is not true, I have never sold an item out of game, or an account. But I still support peoples right to do it. It is their stuff, they can do with it as they want. Again, it is not important why an item changed hands. Why does it matter to you whether a player camped a MOB for 12 hours to get his item, or if he bought it from another player for in-game cash, or if he bought it for out-of-game cash? Either way around, he has the item. How does his method of acquiring it affect you?
One thing you should know is, when you have a game account for any mmorpg, you are leased the account to use. You dont own the account. So it is still the property of the game company. Its like owning a copy of microsoft windows, and trying to sell a copy to someone by burning it on cd. Is that legal? Anyways, I'm not bothered much about account trading as I am with adena selling. Account trading is only un ethical, and does not do that much damage to the game. But flooding the economy with money that is harvested by all these farmers does hurt the economy. Say an extra 20 million comes into the market, does'nt the purchasing power of the adena come down? So a sword that cost 2 million , now costs about 8 million. And you know what else these guys do? there are players right now with character names babyQQ and miniQQ (many more, setup in different towns) that are hired by these online traders on Erica, to hike up the prices in the market. This acts as a catalyst to force people to cosider buying adena from these traders. These hired in game traders craft an item cause they are high levels and obtain the materials easily. Now they set up shops with 3x or 4x prices. When a normal player sees them seeling those items at the hiked prices, he will naturally try to sell the same item at the same price. Ask anyone who plays Lineage 2, they will tell you 2 biggest problem with the games are the economy, and the grind. Now the grind is a design issue. But the economy was ruined by people who flooded the markets with adena that was not naturally earned, but harvested by farmers (in most cases bots). I see people quitting every day because of the bad economy. I am trying hard to stick with the game, because I know it holds a lot of promise at the end of the day. But if the economy gets an worse, there will be consequences with people dropping lineage2 and going to other games. What fun is playing an mmorpg with a handful of people? Thats exactly what I'm scared about. By the way did you guys play Lineage 2 at all? Just curious.
Cstriker
If there is a problem like this (Lineage 2) ruining the game and the devs don't fix it, then quit.
The Adena farmers (or whatever) are an exception to the rule, not the norm. I am not saying it should be OK for the Adena farmers to do what they do. But a problem on such a huge scale should be fixed by the devs. All they need to do is make it not profitable for them.
First, asking me to quit does not help me solve my problem. I'm merely bringing up the issues here on the forums, so I can try to see why some people think online game items sale is not a probelm.
The devs try to ban accounts of people who farm. They usually track the kingpins, and banned their accounts with >50million adena a few times. But that did'nt help. If they can bring up a rule saying, if some one gets this much adena per day, then his harvesting percentage goes down. But this would affect a normal player, who probably does harvest adena for himself. So its a new equation that was not cosidered when the game was on the drawing boards. Would'nt something foreign like that affect the original vision of the game play? It would be nice if people just stopped doing it, and took the time to play the game, and experience the game the way it was meant to be. But again, I know this is not the ideal world. I hope, I answered your questions as to how this affects the economy. Please read my other post today which talks in a little more detail, why this is harmful for the game.
So tell me, what other games do you play
I am not playing any MMORPG at the moment. Can't stand the grind in any of them. I am waiting to see how EQ2 and WOW trun out. Maybe join one of those for a bit. But, I will be jumping into Drak and Light when it finally comes out.
As for seeing your side, I do... I know that the only reason the Adena farmers are there is because they are selling what they make outside of the game. And I understand, if they could not turn it into real cash outside of the game, then they wouldn't be doing it. But it is a large scale problem that is fundamentally wrong with Lineage 2 and not a large scale problem in any other MMORPG. This seems to say that there is something wrong with Lineage 2 that is allowing it.
My guess is that if it is hurting tha game as bad as you say it is, then a huge portion (a majority) of people playing the game must be upset by it. If this is so, then I would bet a large number of people threatening or actually quitting would make the devs do backflips to solve the problem.
But I still believe the fact that it can happen on a large scale like it is in Lineage 2 just means that the game is flawed...
Cool. I can barely stand the grind these days. But hoping to see the good content, I endure it. Not anymore, if games like WoW can get us the eye candy, and the satisfaction at a intellectual level. Lineage 2 has good PvP, and the pet system. And is the only reason I play it. The other game i'm looking forward to is Vanguard Saga of Heroes, and EQ2. Hopefully both will not make me invest 30 hrs a week.
Also, Been playing the counter strike 2 on the half life 2 engine (Beta). Man it rocks. Brought a big smile on my face when I finally played it last night. You can download it for free from www.steampowered.com
try it
Cstriker.
BTW - as per the poll in the other thread, it now shows that 70% of the people that have answered the poll find no problem wtih a business such as www.enotts.com - Understand something about Enotts people.
We aren't based out of China, we are based out of New York. WE buy our items and currency from the open market. We have a 100% completely automated backend system that offers our current prices that we are paying for currency across all platforms, as well as what we sell for.
We employ 10 people to make it easier for the serious enhtusiast with little time (but alot of money
) to play the game they want to play the game.
In dealing with the owner of MMORPG.com, I've always felt that he's been straight forward, 100% honest, and a man of his word. He can't be bought off as this man has integrity. How I know this for a fact will remain between he and I.. However, he has more morals than most anyone I've met in business. To accuse him of anything less than that is very off based, and very misguided..
My two cents worth..
Bart "Enott" Caplin
Vice Presdent / Operations
Enott's Virtual Gear, Inc.
www.enotts.com
Enott -
www.enotts.com
Enotts Virtual Gear, Inc.
Enott -
www.enotts.com
Enotts Virtual Gear, Inc.
I'll give you a totally blunt and honest opinion and hope that the staff here take it not as a personal insult and ban me (or worse resort the the age old last resort comment of "if you don't like it leave").
I'm disgusted that you are even allowed to post here. You would be banned from any site that I run. I notice that you are allowed to make your posts and advertise your stuff here on the forums. Will we all be allowed to post our items for $$ sales threads or will it only be those that give mmorpg.com a peice of the action in the form of cash that are allowed to do so?
Had you stuck to games where the developers themselves haven't banned your kind of activity I probably wouldn't say this... I do genuinely hope that your "business" fails.
MuHQ :: L2HQ :: LoM HQ :: RYLHQ
MMORPG
Don't worry, you just sit back at that "kegger" while mommy and daddy pay for your college tuition so you can make it on your own some day.
It's very unlikely you'd be banned for posting here, that would probably be considered a fierce form of censorship. (Or didn't you learn that while you were busy having others foot your bills) -
More importantly, considering the large amount of the younger players who's parents have wealth to buy them the things they want for the games they play, the 20 somethings, 30 somethings and so on that have the money but not the time, it's unlikely this industry will go away any time soon. I think you'll see a company such as ours take it to the next level, but that's not open for discussion currently.
There are game companies that do not allow this activity and there are those that do. The bottom line is that there is nothing ILLEGAL with what our company does. All respective trademark holders are given title to their products and copyrights. Our company does not claim title to anything we sell or transfer. We merely provide a service. We can legally charge for that service.
I doubt you're old enough in your MMORPG years to remember the days UO was being beta tested.. Then 989 Studios / Verant then SOE came into the picture (yes, we played EQ Beta as well) --
There were no policies back then.. The policies were put into place because while the virtual selling was going on, there were people outright stealing from others. Not delivering items, stealing accounts back. It was a customer service NIGHTMARE for the larger companies. Do you really think that a company such as SOE would NOT do exactly what we do themselves for another revenue stream if it didn't cause the following:
A) Customer Support Issues
C) Whining
Please, they are a company that has to answer to stockholders. If they could generate another 25 million dollars a year by selling their own items, of course they would. But then again, it really wouldn't be acceptable to everyone, and that's the reason they take a hands off approach.
There is no way everyone will ever be happy. There are MMROPG purists out there that feel there shouldn't be a company like ours, and people shouldn't be able to spend real world money on virtual items. Unfortunately, just like the dream of peace on earth and goodwill towards all mankind is a great theory, it's just probably never going to be reality.
This will never be able to be 100% controlled. So instead of fighting it, in my opinion, the people that do want to buy items, should deal with the most reputable company they feel comfortable with.
AS I said earlier, it's alot easier for me to spend $100.00 to get the coin I need to play the way I want then it is to play for 15 or 20 hours.. In all honesty, that's not even a dinner tab for 2 at Peter Lugers
Enott -
www.enotts.com
Enotts Virtual Gear, Inc.
Enott -
www.enotts.com
Enotts Virtual Gear, Inc.
I don't really have a problem with this whole issue, and I thought things were going civilized and well until Enott started with those condescending statements in the last post. They weren't directed at me but I don't think you needed to go that route to back your opinion.
----------------------
Jake
I'd hate to die twice. It's so boring
- Richard P. Feynman, 1988
My comments must have really stung for you reply the way you did. While I've been blunt, I don't think I was personally insulting at any point. Firstly, where exactly in my posts did you get the impression that I "relied on mommy or daddy" or went to college or "have others foot my bills"? I'm aged 33, my parents are working class and anything I ever achieved was done through my own efforts. What has any of this got to do with anything?
You where correct in saying that I wasn't around for UO or even EQ beta (one of your random gambles had to be right by laws of chance). I've been playing mmorpgs for around 4 years which I believe to be sufficient for my opinions to be considered worthy or valid. Your repeated mention of your superior mmorpg playing years is irrelevant.
I agree, games programmers are ruled by investors who's only interest is making money. I've absolutely no doubt that some will see the market in your kind of activity. Some have created games where you can buy items for real money. Those games will most likely fail. Even the people that buy items from sites like yours won't play them. These people are only interested in getting a leap ahead on other players. In games where everyone is allowed to buy stuff, they'd be on a level playing field which they won't like... that'd be a waste of money. No, they'll continue to play games where the activity isn't allowed.
Developers know that the main market will always be for games where control, progress, achievment etc is controlled by players efforts and not by how much real life money people are prepared to spend. People who buy items will always be a minority. It's a sorry day when sites like mmorpg.com help to legitimise your activities when in reality you should be forced to trade in the equivelant of back alleys. I bet most of your customers would rather not make it public ingame that they bought stuff.
When castles are ruled and pvp fights are won and the hunting/adventuring pioneers in a game are decided by people who bought their strength with $$ then that game has been ruined.
MuHQ :: L2HQ :: LoM HQ :: RYLHQ
MMORPG
This thread is not about the opinion of other's involvment or there lack of, but the Marketing and sale of Ingame Items/Currency. You're either for it, or against it. - State your reason's why.
Lets keep the thread clean and clear of personal attacks and I won't have to lock it.
"When you find yourself sinking into Madness, dive" - Malkavian Proverb
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
Forum Stalker
[email protected]
"When you find yourself sinking into Madness, dive"
MuHQ :: L2HQ :: LoM HQ :: RYLHQ
MMORPG
I don't think anyone has advertised specific items for sale here...
ALL you saw was an ad for Enott's, not an ad that said, Uber Sword of EQ, $125.
If you did see an ad like that somewhere, please point it out, and I am wrong.
What is allowed in the forums is trading items in-game. And I believe there are forums setup specifically for that purpose.
Just to clarify...
1) I did not see any blatant advertising...just a URL in a sig - which I am lenient on as long as the poster has something to say before his/her signature appears. However, I would of course be more lenient on a company that pays for advertising here...but still I would never allow them to spam all over the boards. A good example of this is how I allow game companies to post in here about their products...because they are not joe shmoe trying to sell his diet pills or viagra I think there is a difference. This thread is to discuss in-game trading and I feel that Enott's opinions are valid - however his personal jabs at Eraserhead are not needed.
2) Note that we do not allow item trading for money within our forums...only trading for other in game items or in game money. If you wish to sell your items for profit please take that to a site like Enotts. Even though we will advertise for their services I don't want these things happening under this roof as I don't want to be liable for it
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.
I don't think anyone has advertised specific items for sale here...
ALL you saw was an ad for Enott's, not an ad that said, Uber Sword of EQ, $125.
If you did see an ad like that somewhere, please point it out, and I am wrong.
What is allowed in the forums is trading items in-game. And I believe there are forums setup specifically for that purpose.
There where no specific items. Enotts was advertising that it wanted to buy stuff and I saw another by someone called WeBuyStuff which was advertising their services.
On the other thread you stated I hadn't proved that most people are against it. Enotts on this thread claimed the other poll showed 70% in favour of items for $$ on here(the actual figure in the poll on here was 54%).
I made another poll on another site which you can see here.. http://muhq.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=98698&st=0&#entry614857
Only 58 votes as I type. 4 people voted For items for cash. 35 voted Against. 19 voted Don't care. So thats just 7% voting For which is more than a little different from the results on here. I've seen similar results elsewhere. This is what makes me think the users on this site are peculiar in their acceptance of this practice. What's different about the mmorpg.com members demographics?
MuHQ :: L2HQ :: LoM HQ :: RYLHQ
MMORPG
I would say that a poll on a specific game site is not good demographics. For example, I am sure that the L2 community would be strongly against it - because they have seen it at its worst. Then you take a well managed game like EQ - which is not really harmed by currency trading and that community would probably not care as much.
Regardless, I am only seriously concerned with the opinions of my community here at MMORPG.com. The people who call this site their home help support us and if I felt that they were against this I would consider removing these kind of ads...just as I considered them before doing them. IGE approached me on this 18 months ago and I told them no - because at that time most of my members (like 80%) were against it. As time has gone on people are more and more ok with this secondary market and I am pretty confident that within a few years it will be a natural part of MMO's and game companies will enable systems that make is work without harming the community (a la Second Life).
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.
No, your poll here is 68% for... 54% of poeple said they don't mind it, and 14% of people who say they do it themselves. Total, 68% (approximately, little higher actually).
I agree with what Admin said, ask on a specific site and you will get answers specific to the game. This site is general, so you get a more reflective answer.
As I say earlier, out of game trading is bad.
But trying to regulate is even worser unless there is no other ways.
As long as you ask someone to tradeskill to be good in group, solo, raiding or PvP or any other combinaison, you are doomed, and peoples will trade for RL currency, illegally. Cut the 5 aspects into their own aspect of uberness, and you just solve 90% of the issue and you have no work to do to maintain it.
Game staff should be working on the game, not on enforcing stuff on their players because their game lack in 1 aspect (exemple: EQ enforcing raiding on everyone, grouping on raiders if they want the XP, and the list only start...). If you ask your players to do something they dont like, they will trade for RL cash and even if I will not support them in anyway...I find it hard to blame them. Humans take the path of less resistance, and doing an activity they dislike is more resistance then paying money, while doing an activity they like, even if hard, is not seen as resistance, but as entertainment. Any effort they put fighting rogue trading is an effort that could have been put toward improving 1 aspect of the game and is a great loss for the game in itself, yes, not fighting it can be a greater loss in some cases, but a finely designed game dont need that.
''It is so hard to developp many system'', well, fighting trading is certainly a system on it own and you mostly remove it by making a fine game.
CoH find an acceptable ways for grouping and for soloing, althought it would be even better if completely splitted, they rather choose to work on PvP for now, and then maybe something more, which is the way to progress. CoH is just starting on the road, they are, compare to EQ, not even in Kunark era. Give them the time, and it will be marvelous!
Both EQ2 and WoW are enforcing raiding, both will see Ebay prosper! Both will complain and officially fight it instead of solving the real problem that they have only themselves to blame for, if you put your best meal on the floor with your dog and then you blame your dog for eating it...
- "EQ2 or WoW? I wont touch it! Not even with a stick!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Since much was already said about the pro's and con's for real life trading of in-game items and currency I'll not go into detail there. Personally I don't care too much. I get the fun of playing out of getting loot or crafting with the occational buy.
Concerning the topic, I think an ad like Enotts doesn't kill any MMORPG since it is, well a RPG. I would say it might be different for MMO's that focus purely on PvP etc. but for me those are not of interest.
I still have to find the online (or offline) shop that sells the ability to talk in-character and make a worthy appearence in-game. A shiny set of plate armour and a big mean sword doesn't make you a paladin.
Talking about business, IMHO Admin has every right to go for the ad's he wants on his page. I for one am impressed how he manages to go on with this small amount of advertisement I see on his pages. Personally I think these ad's are a small price to pay for an otherwise free to use community site.
Seeing Enott post here I was a little surprised - but positively so. It shows that MMORPG.com does not bann different opinions (though personal accusations) and takes no site. I admire his way of running these forum having known some more, lets say biased sites in the past.
Hope these two-cent are worth their value.
'till swords meet again!
V.
'till swords meet again!
V.
Thanx to these online traders, most of my clan just quit. I'm on the road again to find fun people to play with and all that time spent in the game go to waste. Ask them what destroyed the fun in the game, and they'll tell you it was the bloated economy. People who barely made a profession change, and were compelled to buy adena to get the top gear. Lineag2's adena farmer problem, and companies like Enotts are not two different things. For the most part, all these farmers work their butts to make adena and sell it to these companies. So the argument about any potential benefits brought to mmorpgs by Enotts is just IMO .. naive, or you have'nt faced the problems caused by these Companies. I'm even scared to invest time in a new game, for the fact that these people will make their way into it, and destroy the game..like they did in Lineage 2. Give all the open minded opinions you want, but end of the day, the fact is..these people destroyed a game. You say the Game developers should build a game, so that these problems dont come up. How can they possibly eliminate such wide a spread and discreet system. What do you suggest!! them not allow the concept of ingame money and items? Gosh, this is the most pain I've felt playing a freaking game...and games are supposed to be fun. For the last time, these guys are doing something that the Game companies declare ILLEGIT and punishable by an account BAN. Does'nt that say enough??
MMORPG.com ..tell me, how in the world can the fun be in games, if you SUPPORT the one thing that destroys the objective of a game???
I need to go wuusaa and calm down
.
The problem you are really having is that Lineage 2 is just a bad game...
Find a better one. Once you get bored of looking at the half naked character models, there is no substance to that game except level grinding.