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SWG's EULA, a chance to give some feedback (poll)

ArcAngel3ArcAngel3 Member Posts: 2,931

Here's a poll to allow gamers to give SOE some feedback about their EULA.  SOE supporters have told people, if you don't like the EULA don't play.  I wonder if they understand just how many people are taking their advice, and that this could be yet another reason the game is so empty.  Here's the poll:

 

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Comments

  • daeandordaeandor Member UncommonPosts: 2,693

    You need to go hire yourself a damned lawyer, stop asking for layman's opinions, and find out what the real courts have to say about your obsession with EULAs, SOE, and everything else you are upset with.

  • GorairGorair Member Posts: 959

    the catch .. you have to open the software to get to the EULA ..

    you cant return opened software most places,so if you dont accept it tough luck , you are out whatever you paid.

     if you are inyterested in trying anything legal go for that ground , that just buying the software = accepting a EULA agreement without having a chance to read and/or agree to it since there is no possible way to get a refund.

    I not a legal guy but i cant really see how being forced into anything can bind you ... i mean if a cop beats a confession out of you , even if you DID the crime they cant use the confession against you. So what makes people think they can actually enforce a EULA since its coerced ( meaning you lose money or you agree at time of purchase the coercion being the loss of money if you do not accept it after the fact)?

    Doubt it  would stand up but its an idea. Why anyone would do this NOW is beyond me, The cost would FAR outweigh any settlement /agreement etc ...and it would take 3-5 years .

     

    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

  • BaronJuJuBaronJuJu Member UncommonPosts: 1,832

    You put a poll to give SOE some feedback on SWG EULA in the MMORPG.com SWG Vet forum? Yeah, I'm sure that will be unbiased and a true depiction of the current players desires.

    "If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"

  • MickeyMannMickeyMann Member Posts: 66

    Originally posted by daeandor


    You need to go hire yourself a damned lawyer, stop asking for layman's opinions, and find out what the real courts have to say about your obsession with EULAs, SOE, and everything else you are upset with.



       I disagree, just because SOE likes to treat us like mindless monkeys, there is no reason why we can not have a kangroo court on the issue of EULA's ( They make me hopping mad).

  • ArcAngel3ArcAngel3 Member Posts: 2,931

     

    Originally posted by daeandor


    You need to go hire yourself a damned lawyer, stop asking for layman's opinions, and find out what the real courts have to say about your obsession with EULAs, SOE, and everything else you are upset with.



    Lol changes in practices around things like EULAs generally start at the grass roots level.  That's us.  Forums like this are an excellent vehicle for gamers to share their thoughts on matters that concern them.

     

    It was a recent gamers conference that had discussions on EULAs that got me thinking about these issues.  Tbh, lots of gamers are thinking about them, and this is a great place to compare notes.

    Also, if I want to explore other avenues regarding gamer's rights I can certainly do that while I'm posting here.  It's not an either or scenario.

    Further, I'm not particularly upset at this point, I'm at the "motivated to do something about it" stage :)

    Oh, and also, I have a number of friends and colleagues who are lawyers in criminal and civil court settings.  I already have their input on these issues.  I'm not looking for that here.  I'm looking for gamers views on EULAs, since they are the U in EULA.  Ultimately, MMO companies should be concerned with the views of those who wil either choose to pay and play, or not.

  • daeandordaeandor Member UncommonPosts: 2,693

    Okay, I'll bite that you are being legit about a real interest in what gamers think about EULAs.  If that's the case, then give me a poll with some options that aren't complete polar opposites and don't load the side of the poll you disagree on with an option that is condescending to anyone who chooses it.  Polls are best when kept simple:

    Choose the sentence that best describes your position on EULAs:

    1.  Eulas are needed in the gaming industry and don't require any change.

    2.  Eulas are needed in the gaming industry, but require minor changes.

    3.  Eulas are needed in the gaming industry, but require major changes.

    4.  Eulas are not needed in the gaming industry.

    (etc)

     

    I feel that in order to address EULAs, you have to address virtual property.  Sure you can harp all day about how a EULA isn't fair, but until gamers can prove that their game avatars are actually theirs, then I don't feel gamers have a leg to stand on in regards to EULAs.  To keep this short:  I don't think EULAs are fair to gamers, but I don't feel that is enough to force a change.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465

    Originally posted by daeandor


    Okay, I'll bite that you are being legit about a real interest in what gamers think about EULAs.  If that's the case, then give me a poll with some options that aren't complete polar opposites and don't load the side of the poll you disagree on with an option that is condescending to anyone who chooses it.  Polls are best when kept simple:
    Choose the sentence that best describes your position on EULAs:
    1.  Eulas are needed in the gaming industry and don't require any change.
    2.  Eulas are needed in the gaming industry, but require minor changes.
    3.  Eulas are needed in the gaming industry, but require major changes.
    4.  Eulas are not needed in the gaming industry.
    (etc)
     
    I feel that in order to address EULAs, you have to address virtual property.  Sure you can harp all day about how a EULA isn't fair, but until gamers can prove that their game avatars are actually theirs, then I don't feel gamers have a leg to stand on in regards to EULAs.  To keep this short:  I don't think EULAs are fair to gamers, but I don't feel that is enough to force a change.

    Just wait until the next batch of RMT games hit, when companies start charging on a per item basis for items from a mall, they are putting a dollar value on virtual property, making it, for all intents and purposes real property. Keep in mind, that property need not be a physical thing, under already existing law.  Patented ideas, proprietary production methods and other intellectual property, are just the same as a Buick, as far as most litigation is concerned.

    The big difference with RMT for items, is that the game companies will be acknowledging that they are selling property (and property rights) to customers, by their own actions, and be opening themselves up to possible litigation, if/when a game update breaks or degrades the usefulness or utility on items people paid money for.

    There are two factors that come onto play for 'tort" litigation: The plaintiff must prove that the defendant is responsible for damage someone's property (intentional or unintentional, doesn't matter), and that the damage to the item has a quantifiable, monetary loss value. No one could say that the company wasn't responsible for putting out a patch that "broke" customer items, and in the case of RMT, the companies THEMSELVES have determined the value of the virtual property, when they put a price tag on it in the item mall.

    In the end, the companies would lose, the players would be entitled to a refund after several years of litigation, and the lawyers on both sides would be paid the most individually.

    So, who is the real winner?

  • SuvrocSuvroc Member Posts: 2,383

    Originally posted by BaronJuJu


    You put a poll to give SOE some feedback on SWG EULA in the MMORPG.com SWG Vet forum? Yeah, I'm sure that will be unbiased and a true depiction of the current players desires.

    True, but I don't think any other group of gamers has been so affected (either negatively or positively depending on what side of the fence you're sitting on) by a EULA. Most gamers I would imagine are blissfully unaware of what a EULA says because they haven't had to really pay attention to it.

    It's only through SoE using the EULA as a defense that I've become more aware of what a EULA is. I've not experienced that awareness through any other MMO.

  • MathosMathos Member Posts: 897

    I did learn one good thing from $OE I dont play there games anymore lol

  • ArcAngel3ArcAngel3 Member Posts: 2,931
    Originally posted by Suvroc


     
    Originally posted by BaronJuJu


    You put a poll to give SOE some feedback on SWG EULA in the MMORPG.com SWG Vet forum? Yeah, I'm sure that will be unbiased and a true depiction of the current players desires.

     

    True, but I don't think any other group of gamers has been so affected (either negatively or positively depending on what side of the fence you're sitting on) by a EULA. Most gamers I would imagine are blissfully unaware of what a EULA says because they haven't had to really pay attention to it.

    It's only through SoE using the EULA as a defense that I've become more aware of what a EULA is. I've not experienced that awareness through any other MMO.



    My experience exactly.

  • demented669demented669 Member Posts: 402

    you really don't have to read any EULA-EUA from any game couse there all the same they want to be able to do what ever they want and have no one telling them they can't, is that fair? i think so its there game, they can do what ever they like to it i really don't care but what they don't seem to understand is we the people have the right to tell them to take there game that they totaly changed to somthing we would never had paid for in the first place and stick it where the sun does not shine

    what they "LA-SOE" have done to there fans and players, is like  going and buying  a red car,  then they come to you house and change it for a blue car then comming back a few months later and give you a go cart ! so for all that don't understand why vets hate what they did, hope this will help you to understand our feelings

  • ArcAngel3ArcAngel3 Member Posts: 2,931

     

    Originally posted by daeandor


    Okay, I'll bite that you are being legit about a real interest in what gamers think about EULAs.  If that's the case, then give me a poll with some options that aren't complete polar opposites and don't load the side of the poll you disagree on with an option that is condescending to anyone who chooses it.  Polls are best when kept simple:
    Choose the sentence that best describes your position on EULAs:
    1.  Eulas are needed in the gaming industry and don't require any change.
    2.  Eulas are needed in the gaming industry, but require minor changes.
    3.  Eulas are needed in the gaming industry, but require major changes.
    4.  Eulas are not needed in the gaming industry.
    (etc)
     
    I feel that in order to address EULAs, you have to address virtual property.  Sure you can harp all day about how a EULA isn't fair, but until gamers can prove that their game avatars are actually theirs, then I don't feel gamers have a leg to stand on in regards to EULAs.  To keep this short:  I don't think EULAs are fair to gamers, but I don't feel that is enough to force a change.

    O.k., I think I hear what you're saying.  Thanks for the dialogue.  Tbh, what I'm attempting to do more specifically is give people a chance to tell SOE what they think of particular aspects of their EULA.  I'm also trying to give them a chance to indicate whether or not these aspects of the EULA are linked to their decision not to subscribe.

     

    So far it seems that the majority of people don't like the aspects I've listed.  It also seems that people choose not to pay or play in part because the EULA is so lopsided, and because of what it has been used to justify.

    I think that's an important message for SOE.  What I would say to SOE is this: "Sure you can use your EULA to justify things that others are very upset about.  You can also tell people that the EULA they're reading today may not exist tomorrow, since it can be changed on a whim.  You can also tell people to return opened software for a refund, even though most of us know you can't get a refund on opened software.  BUT, if you keep your EULA as it is, and continue to treat customers as you do, your game is going to stay empty.  It's really that simple.  Who benefits by that?   Certainly not SOE and certainly not their customers.

  • ArcAngel3ArcAngel3 Member Posts: 2,931

    Thanks for all of the votes and feedback guys.  93.3 % of you (sample size of 30) have indicated that you don't like these parts of SOE's EULA:

    -used to justify wholesale deletions of professions and progress,

    -can be changed at anytime at SOE's sole discretion,

    -recommends returning OPENED software for a refund if you don't like the EULA, even though open softward in my entire country, and possibly yours, cannot be returned for a refund.

    93.3% of you have also indicated that these aspects of the EULA have influenced your decision not to subscribe to the game.

    IF SOE really wants to solve their game population problems, they SHOULD pay attention to this kind of player feedback.  It IS highly relevant to their low populations, low customer satisfaction and low revenues.

     

  • doelmodoelmo Member Posts: 11

    We all have been fooled once with combat upgrade...why are you surprised they did it again?

     

  • ArcAngel3ArcAngel3 Member Posts: 2,931
    Originally posted by doelmo


    We all have been fooled once with combat upgrade...why are you surprised they did it again?
     

    Speaking for myself, I got over the surprise in 2005.  I've moved on to look at aspects of the MMO industry that have been used to justify behaviour that has had a negative impact on gamers in general.  In this case, I'm highlighting three specific aspects of SOE's EULA for StarWars Galaxies.  If gamers want a better experience, issues like these will need to be addressed. 

    This poll sends the message to SOE, "change the way you do business if you want people to subscribe to your games."

  • doelmodoelmo Member Posts: 11

    If they didnt get them message with me and 80% of people leaving after combat upgrade,why do you think they will now?

     

  • ArcAngel3ArcAngel3 Member Posts: 2,931

    Originally posted by doelmo


    If they didnt get them message with me and 80% of people leaving after combat upgrade,why do you think they will now?
     
    Frankly, I won't be surprised if they don't get the message.  If they do, it will probably because Smed is now accountable to someone else at Sony.  That may or may not be a significant change.  Time will tell.

    I suppose Smed might get a visit from the ghosts of Life Day past, present and future lol, but I'm not holding my breath.

    If they do listen and change their overall philosophy, nice.  Less pain and suffering for anyone who stumbles into any of their games.

    If they don't listen, at least this thread, and many others highlight how SOE does business, so people can make an informed decision about doing business with them.

     

  • doelmodoelmo Member Posts: 11

    I feel for you.I really do.But I am your ghost from the past,been there done that ,started a 100 threads,wrote a 100 e-mails,started doz's of petitions.never going to change sony.

  • stinneystinney Member Posts: 35

    I think the EULA is going to be water-tight in a legal capacity.

     

    However I definately think there is a legal case for them obtaining money through deception.



    The player base was told on many many different occasions, about many different subjects that some things (content, fixes, balances etc) were on the way and in fact "Just around the corner". None of this was ever done.

    I believe that they deliberatly concealed their intentions and built up false hope to keep us paying money.



    In that respect they obtained money through deception which I think is against the law.







    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception_offences

  • ArcAngel3ArcAngel3 Member Posts: 2,931
    Originally posted by stinney


    I think the EULA is going to be water-tight in a legal capacity.
     
    However I definately think there is a legal case for them obtaining money through deception.



    The player base was told on many many different occasions, about many different subjects that some things (content, fixes, balances etc) were on the way and in fact "Just around the corner". None of this was ever done.

    I believe that they deliberatly concealed their intentions and built up false hope to keep us paying money.



    In that respect they obtained money through deception which I think is against the law.







    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception_offences



     

    Complaints of this nature are currently being tracked by the Federal Trade Commission.  If you wish to add your own experience to this database, you can use the following link:

    https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/FTC_Wizard.aspx?Lang=en#last

    You can also report your experience more directly to the appropriate federal authorities here:

    http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

     

  • icyredicyred Member Posts: 138

    Well the problem is that they have been screwing up the game since the end of the first year. I think that this is fair what they are doing cause they are doing this for the players that are left in there that still want too play. those who quit because of this is just not interested enought too want too continue and SWG knows they have competition comming with SWtoR comming out in the next 2-3 years.

  • Contracts (which is what a EULA is), in order to be valid CANNOT be one sided, have to be made between equal parties, and cannot have clauses where one side has the unilateral right to alter it at will.

    Which is why no EULA is worth the paper it wasn't printed on.

     

     

  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    Originally posted by salvaje


    Contracts (which is what a EULA is), in order to be valid CANNOT be one sided, have to be made between equal parties, and cannot have clauses where one side has the unilateral right to alter it at will.
    Which is why no EULA is worth the paper it wasn't printed on.
     
     

     

    You are right on target with this one. A few players from my old guild were lawyers and law students and they all said the same thing.

    The first time one of these EULAs goes to court, it is going to get blown out of the water. One of the primary reasons this has not happened yet, is that the money the customers spend has been relatively small, $15/mo. But when larger and larger amounts of money come into the game, someone is much more likely to sue at some point.

    But if I were one of these people spending $100s of dollars/euros on "cards" and all of a sudden they went poof, I would be much more inclined to do something about and get others to do the same.

     

    As a side FYI, the courts have already found that "software license agreements" and the contention that people "use" software and not "own" it is in fact defective under the law. The case in Washington state revolved around someone who was reselling a copy of some piece of software he bought legally, and was sued by the manufacturer who said that act violated the terms of service for that software. The court turned around and said that buying a piece of software was no different from buying a Buick, and became real property once the guy bought it, and could resell it legally. The maker of the software is appealing.

     

  • SuvrocSuvroc Member Posts: 2,383
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    Originally posted by salvaje


    Contracts (which is what a EULA is), in order to be valid CANNOT be one sided, have to be made between equal parties, and cannot have clauses where one side has the unilateral right to alter it at will.
    Which is why no EULA is worth the paper it wasn't printed on.
     
     

     

    You are right on target with this one. A few players from my old guild were lawyers and law students and they all said the same thing.

    The first time one of these EULAs goes to court, it is going to get blown out of the water. One of the primary reasons this has not happened yet, is that the money the customers spend has been relatively small, $15/mo. But when larger and larger amounts of money come into the game, someone is much more likely to sue at some point.

    But if I were one of these people spending $100s of dollars/euros on "cards" and all of a sudden they went poof, I would be much more inclined to do something about and get others to do the same.

     

    As a side FYI, the courts have already found that "software license agreements" and the contention that people "use" software and not "own" it is in fact defective under the law. The case in Washington state revolved around someone who was reselling a copy of some piece of software he bought legally, and was sued by the manufacturer who said that act violated the terms of service for that software. The court turned around and said that buying a piece of software was no different from buying a Buick, and became real property once the guy bought it, and could resell it legally. The maker of the software is appealing.

     



     

    I'm sure it has come up at some point but it's likely been delt with by means of an out of court settlement with a non-disclosure agreement attached to it.

  • Originally posted by Suvroc


     
    I'm sure it has come up at some point but it's likely been delt with by means of an out of court settlement with a non-disclosure agreement attached to it.

     

    Most likely there.  If any publisher has been sued over the issue of their EULA, they probably threw money at it to make it go away. 

    No publisher who sues someone for, say piracy or copyright violation, for example, EVER does so on the basis of their EULA as well, they do so based on copyright law, for two reasons.  First, it'd get tossed out, second, it'd get a court precedent that would strike down the validity of the EULA.  They can't afford to HAVE an up or down ruling on EULA's, because that would destroy their "real" power: To make the customer THINK that they are valid and that the publisher actually HAS the power they say they do.

    The EULA serves only as their means of justifying banning you from their servers, etc, which is a far different issue than suing you for copyright violation.  However, as SOE moves further and further into the RMT realm (and the TCG amounts to RMT) sooner or later the issue of who OWNS virtual property and what is it's real VALUE will have to be settled.  I can't see the courts holding that the publishers can claim to be able to sell virtual property while at the same time retaining complete ownership of it.

    Once this gets enshrined in law, guess what happens?  Publishers lose ANY control over their customers, they won't be able to ban someone, for example, without at the very least refunding their virtual property purchases.  That would be theft by unlawful taking if they did so without due process (ie: the courts) and would be a nightmare.  Imagine if SOE had to justify their GM actions to a 3rd party...

    This is why, IMHO, MMO publishers should STAY THE HELL AWAY from RMT, it's a huge ticking time bomb.  But SOE never thinks as far ahead as the rest of TODAY, much less the future.  If their corporate legal staff haven't at least advised them of this potential pitfall, then they have fools for attorneys. 

    In the pure subscription model, the publisher has blanket authority to choose who they do business with, since you are paying for play time, not for property.  They can say "no mas" so long as they refund the balance of prepaid time.  In RMT, they can't say that you are paying only for subscription time, you've bought property as well, since it has monetary value, indisputably because real money changed hands for it.  This changes things completely.

     

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