OP : I am glad you're not in the development business. Please stay out of the games industry. No hard feelings, but about 99.9% of the people on MMORPG.COM should play instead of designing sandboxes. ))
Funny how you assume. I am actually working on my Computer Science degree with the intent of going into the gaming industry. And don't you worry, I have already been working on an extensive outline for an open world, sandbox MMORPG that I want to make one day.
No hard feelings, but I won't be offended if you can't grasp the complexity and depth of my game.
OP: Either you are straight up lying or you are self made billionaire. I will say right now that your 'ideas' will never see the light of day. You obviously don't think before you speak all of these ideas have been in games before one way shape or form...tested for playability and found to be impossible to implement as live content. While every single one of your points are bogus, I will just focus on one...
Honestly I should have just stopped reading right here. You're are either a troll(a bad one at that), or a complete moron. All of my features were found to be impossible to implement as live content? LOL. There all bogus? LOL. Let me just go through the run down of games that have what I asked for that had them as live content.
1) No levels.
Eve, SWG pre-CU.
2) Crafter based economies
Eve, SWG pre-cu.
3) Simplicity
I don't even know how to respond to this one. Clearly there have been many complex games in the past, but according to you all of my points are bogus or found that they were unable to be implemented into live... LOL.
But for the sake of proving you wrong, Eve.
4) XP penalties for grouping
I know SWG pre-nge didn't have a penalty for grouping. In fact they had a bonus for grouping. Imagine that.
5) Boring linear gameplay
Obviously many games have avoided this by either not having linear gameplay or not having boring game play. Guild Wars was pretty linear questing, but extremely entertaining with good cut scenes and story. Pretty much any sandbox will not have linear gameplay.
6) Fantasy
Clearly, there have been other themes besides fantasy in mmos, CoX with super hero theme, many sci -fi games, yeah you are wrong again.
7) Official forums
Guild wars doesn't have official forums and it works quite nicely. A lot less whining.
8) No instancing
Many games have been seemless worlds with no instancing. Eve, SWG Pre-cu to stay with the theme.
9) Small scale pvp
Again, many games have been able to go live with no small scale instanced PvP.
Wow, I just proved you wrong on every single one of my points that you called "Bogus" or "Impossible to implement as live content". Maybe you should take your own advice, and think before you open your mouth.
XP while grouping: I know you might not be able to grasp the complexity and depth of this explaination but I will try anyway.
This will be the example: killing mob X solo will get you 200xp and it takes you 1 min. to kill. Now you group with someone and there is no penalty for grouping, now 2 people are killing that same mob in 30secs each getting 200xp. So essentially cutting your leveling time in half. So with only 2 in a group you will level twice as fast. Now lets make it a group of 6 that same mob now takes only 10secs to kill and everyone gets 200xp WOW now you can level 6 times as fast. So giving that rate you could make a char. and level them to cap in a few days days...But wait...o yes I do recall you saying you want the Simplicity taken out of games....hmm leveling to cap in a few days thats pretty simple. So maybe now you can grasp the complexity of xp sharing in a group...its not a penalty as you call it.
To further make my point in Everquest there was no 'xp penalty' for grouping wtih high levels which resulted in new people getting power leveled to cap in about 1 1/2 days....All of your points have been done in games and they don't work its that simple.
So this brings me back to my original statement you must be lying because you don't have a clue about developing a playable game. So please just stop with your self-righteous BS.
Congratulations, your clever command of simple division has really stumped me. Now, how to explain this in terms you can understand...
There are two, yes two, ways to explain how no xp penalties for grouping can and have worked. Now you will have to step out of the WoW box for a moment and run with me here.
1) XP is tuned for groups. Now get this, the amount of xp you need to level is actually tuned for the amount of xp you get in a group. Perhaps the xp amounts are tuned for having half a group. Having more people gives you a slight bonus to the xp you get, since your amazing use of division has already proven that the more people in the group, the faster you kill. Now, you might get a slight reduction in the amount of xp you get if you go solo because you won't kill as fast. In this scenario, people won't be power leveling because the game is actually designed to give people a bonus for grouping.
Now for scenario number 2, and this one might blow your little WoW mind...
2) Leveling isn't the primary content of the game! Perhaps a game isn't really about "leveling" your character to max, but about what you can do with your character once it is max. I know this sounds crazy, but making specific content for while you level actually reduces the amount of content you have when you are max.(Your great math skills can easily figure out why this is). So if a game were designed to make leveling a sort of short "Get to know your class/spec" instead of a "bore you to death while you grind out quests until you get to max level to actually start having fun", you could actually spend more time adding things to do in the game once your character is maxed, as oppose to wasting the time of the developers on making content that will only be seen by characters briefly as they race through their levels to get to max anyway. If you create a game around leveling, players might get pretty bored doing it, and end game content will suffer. With characters having finished a boring level grind, and finding nothing to do at max level, customer longevity will be missing.
I truly hope you are just a bad troll... Because that was just bad.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Challenge me with the world content, not the user interface. The user interface should be simple and user friendly.
Challenging (or complex) game content is good, but a different issue from the actual client interface. I do prefer games where you have to take a tactical approach when fighting; where just wading in and trying to kill everything will get you killed.
I truly hope you are just a bad troll... Because that was just bad.
Wow, I just proved you wrong on every single one of my points that you called "Bogus" or "Impossible to implement as live content". Maybe you should take your own advice, and think before you open your mouth.
This is too funny you proved me wrong?....to quote you yet again...your 'points' to prove me wrong were EVE and SWG pre cu?
Did I miss something because I'm pretty sure both of those games have a very small playerbase..so um yeah people are just flocking to both those games....woah lookout you got me those gamebreaking ideas you came up with man I can't believe I missed those to steller examples of mmorpgs. Too funny.
There are two, yes two, ways to explain how no xp penalties for grouping can and have worked. Now you will have to step out of the WoW box for a moment and run with me here.
1) XP is tuned for groups. Now get this, the amount of xp you need to level is actually tuned for the amount of xp you get in a group. Perhaps the xp amounts are tuned for having half a group. Having more people gives you a slight bonus to the xp you get, since your amazing use of division has already proven that the more people in the group, the faster you kill. Now, you might get a slight reduction in the amount of xp you get if you go solo because you won't kill as fast. In this scenario, people won't be power leveling because the game is actually designed to give people a bonus for grouping.
Again lol so instead of making xp less in groups (because you are killing faster essentially increasing your xp per hour) and leaving the xp to level the same...you want to increase group xp and also increase the xp to level...wow brilliant...so the same thing is effectively accomplished...yes your brilliance is just overwheming.
Now for scenario number 2, and this one might blow your little WoW mind...
2) Leveling isn't the primary content of the game! Perhaps a game isn't really about "leveling" your character to max, but about what you can do with your character once it is max. I know this sounds crazy, but making specific content for while you level actually reduces the amount of content you have when you are max.(Your great math skills can easily figure out why this is). So if a game were designed to make leveling a sort of short "Get to know your class/spec" instead of a "bore you to death while you grind out quests until you get to max level to actually start having fun", you could actually spend more time adding things to do in the game once your character is maxed, as oppose to wasting the time of the developers on making content that will only be seen by characters briefly as they race through their levels to get to max anyway. If you create a game around leveling, players might get pretty bored doing it, and end game content will suffer. With characters having finished a boring level grind, and finding nothing to do at max level, customer longevity will be missing.
As afraid I am to say it I understand what you are saying here but you never metioned this under your ' xp group penalty removed' heading. But it its still a concept that contradicts what makes an rpg an rpg.
So what you want is to.... buy new game, load game, login, create char., play a few days are at level cap with all your new abilities and then play all the content?...1) Sounds like a console game. 2) Again you just contradict yourself on the simpicity issue.....you want to have a max char./class in a 'short' amount of time yet you want it complex?...Well in order for you to understand your char./class it will have to be simple enough to learn in a few days, so you can 'enjoy' all the end game content or on the flip side the end game content will have to be simple in order for it to be 'fun' to play with a few day old maxed out char./class.
But I'm sure you will have some comeback so it really doesn't matter how much I or anyone else explains simple gameplay mechanics and the reason these concepts are not persued anymore. As far as the fantasy theme goes....unfortunately other genre's don't have enought char/class diversity to make it appealing to everyone. Maybe a post-apocalyptic theme with magic as well as sci-fi but I digress.
O and btw thanks for assuming I play WoW not that it really matters but I don't play that game...at all...lol. Too funny.
I truly hope you are just a bad troll... Because that was just bad.
This is too funny you proved me wrong?....to quote you yet again...your 'points' to prove me wrong were EVE and SWG pre cu?
Did I miss something because I'm pretty sure both of those games have a very small playerbase..so um yeah people are just flocking to both those games....woah lookout you got me those gamebreaking ideas you came up with man I can't believe I missed those to steller examples of mmorpgs. Too funny.
Back before SWG was ruined by SOE, they had over 200k subs. This was pre-WoW days, so yeah, that was highly respectable. Eve is up to 250k subs. For a niche game that hasn't been advertised and has a lot of the features that you claim are "bogus" or "impossible", yeah I would say 250k subs is awesome.
Again lol so instead of making xp less in groups (because you are killing faster essentially increasing your xp per hour) and leaving the xp to level the same...you want to increase group xp and also increase the xp to level...wow brilliant...so the same thing is effectively accomplished...yes your brilliance is just overwheming.
Hmmph... Once again you fail to comprehend what this would actually lead to. I don't know If I should even bother responding anymore. Think(I know this is tough for you) about it a little more... What is DIFFERENT about an xp penalty for a group as compared to no xp penalty with raised xp amounts needed.... think about it...
An xp bonus for groups encourages grouping, while an xp penalty encourages solo play. Ahhh that was a toughy. You see, if more xp is needed to level, but there is no group xp penalty, then people are more inclined to group because it will actually be the fastest. Where as, with an xp penalty for grouping, it is actually quite slower to level. I'll explain this part too, since independent thinking just isn't your style. It is slower because when xp is shared among members, essentially you should be killing, in a group of 5 lets say, 5 times faster, but getting 1/5 of the xp. Now, that sounds like its the same speed as solo play, but take into account the time it takes to find the group, get the group together, make sure everyone is on the same quests, get everyone to the same quests, and bam, grouping just become slower grinding then solo. So a system that gives a bonus for grouping actually encourages grouping, while a system which gives no bonus(shared xp) actually encourages solo play.
Change that around to where you get full XP for grouping or going solo with raised xp limits, and grouping almost becomes necessary and forced(not necessarily saying I support forced grouping).
As afraid I am to say it I understand what you are saying here but you never metioned this under your ' xp group penalty removed' heading. But it its still a concept that contradicts what makes an rpg an rpg.
So what you want is to.... buy new game, load game, login, create char., play a few days are at level cap with all your new abilities and then play all the content?...1) Sounds like a console game. 2) Again you just contradict yourself on the simpicity issue.....you want to have a max char./class in a 'short' amount of time yet you want it complex?...Well in order for you to understand your char./class it will have to be simple enough to learn in a few days, so you can 'enjoy' all the end game content or on the flip side the end game content will have to be simple in order for it to be 'fun' to play with a few day old maxed out char./class.
I seem to be noticing a trend here... Again, your going to have to think outside of the box just a smidge. Have you ever heard the saying "Easy to learn, hard to master"? For any game to be successful, it needs to be easy to learn. You can have games that are easy to learn, but still be complex. Sure, you can build a character in a week or so, but this doesn't mean you fully understand everything about that character, or have mastered it's play. You see, players may build a character in a short amount of time, but it doesn't mean they built it right. I can remember in SWG I built a pretty crappy build the first time I leveled. After seeing how the build wasn't working out, I changed it around to something that I liked a lot better, and did a lot better with.
But I'm sure you will have some comeback so it really doesn't matter how much I or anyone else explains simple gameplay mechanics and the reason these concepts are not persued anymore. As far as the fantasy theme goes....unfortunately other genre's don't have enought char/class diversity to make it appealing to everyone. Maybe a post-apocalyptic theme with magic as well as sci-fi but I digress.
When you reply to a complete stranger's personal opinion like a complete ass-hat, your going to get a vile response back. If you would have come into the thread saying "I see what you are saying, but disagree and here is why", then we can have a civil conversation. But you came into this thread with a hostile attitude, and as such are being treated like the douche you are representing yourself to be.
O and btw thanks for assuming I play WoW not that it really matters but I don't play that game...at all...lol. Too funny.
Sorry, couldn't help but assume since your maturity level and creative thinking match those of the "WoW is my first and only MMO" players.
And that is in no way a dis on WoW, that is a dis on their players. The community in that game is really bad. I personally think the game, for what it is, is pretty good. Not exactly my cup of tea, but for what it is they did a pretty good job.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Sigh it sounds like you need to think outside the box. Because the only game you claim is worth playing is SWG pre-cu. Not that it makes my points anymore valid or not but I played EQ for years...BETA'd SWG and went through that whole nightmare...so I know exactly what you are wanting in a game. Not to mention the other AAA titles that I have played to level cap looking for the game to home.
Let me give you my opinion on the whole 'make a game like SWG-pre cu'
The so called vetrans have short term memory. The game they constantantly whine to have back (SWG pre-cu) is the same game they (at the time) were whining to change and fix. They didn't like the game PRE-CU either but it wasn't until after CU that they realized...'O wait the original SWG wasn't so bad, and suddenly lost all recollection as to why the disliked the game in its original state because CU was so bad.' Which resulted in the 'Community' screaming that SOE took away the game they loved....the game was never loved, as a tester and active voice on the forums then, very few liked the original game. But it is funny to see everyone now say how great SWG pre cu was and wish they had that back, eventhough those same people at the time were on the forums everyday screaming for change....
Eve is a niche game the only combat is space and that is tatical. Not appealing to most.
Any group based game that comes out... which yourself says is what you want...to group. will have to have 3 base classes......Meat shield, DPS/Nuker, and healer
In order for people to group there needs to be group dynamics SWG had none....that whole game especially in its Pre- CU days was entirely solo, there was no reason to group. There was no tank or true healing class just variations on DPS. The only time you would group was to PVP or Zerg something.
And your xp idea which however you want to insult me this time, anyway you want to spin it...it is the same concept.....and why will grouping be easier all of a sudden when you give an xp boost? You should talk to a veteran FFXI player it has your group xp bonus...which forces grouping after level 5 and its still near impossible to find a group and level.
It sounds like to me the only games you've played seriously was SWG and WOW. One you love and one you love to hate. If you truly are a critical thinking developer to be, then study the games that have gone before...all of them and you will find each of your 'ideas' implemented and if you care to peel the SWG Pre-cu blinders off your eyes you will see why most likely you wont see them again.
Good luck trying to get into the games industry while calling the most succesful games crap. That stuff may fly in highschool or college, but in the REAL world, professionals will laugh at you and not take you serious. Just a warning to all the fledgling game designers prowling the boards.
If you're going to mock everyone's ideas that are proven to WORK, just be prepared when those people don't want to work with you. Nobody likes a kid with no experience telling them how to do everything, esspecially when your ideas have been thought up many times, whether you beleive it or not.
People who haven't liked certain ideas for years aren't going to change their tune. Millions of people aren't going to suddenly LOVE features from games that have already proved to be niche. Saying niche status is good enough is one thing. Admit the ideas are not main stream, highly succesful or enjoyed by the masses. But saying the entire industry should change to cater to the hardcore few is simply stupid and naive.
How about give options...? You just say: remove X. How about say: remove X, replace with Y. Hmm? Too hard for you? Hardly ever seen anyone complaining about X, and giving a acceptable Y. Normally they replace it with crap ideas, that on one agrees with...
lol you need to actually read the whole post. On nearly everything on the list that I wanted removed, I gave the alternative(if there was one) I preferred. But I did enjoy your misinformed, stuck up sarcasm.
i r drunk/high like i havent been in years -.o
HAHAHAHAH... hehe... ehe.
LMAO Have one for me today and five on Saturday for me. then next week while i am having Surgery you can have the hangover LOL.
Good luck trying to get into the games industry while calling the most succesful games crap. That stuff may fly in highschool or college, but in the REAL world, professionals will laugh at you and not take you serious. Just a warning to all the fledgling game designers prowling the boards. You are absolutely right. I didn't mean to come off as saying that the successful features are crap, just that, as the title says, this is MY list of what MMO's should get rid of. This was basically a list of what I like and don't like about MMO's, not just saying that everything I don't like is crap. If you're going to mock everyone's ideas that are proven to WORK, just be prepared when those people don't want to work with you. Nobody likes a kid with no experience telling them how to do everything, esspecially when your ideas have been thought up many times, whether you beleive it or not. True again, none of the things I listed were ground breaking, almost all of them were in games long ago and seem to have been forgotten about. That is why I want to see a new game with these features. People who haven't liked certain ideas for years aren't going to change their tune. Millions of people aren't going to suddenly LOVE features from games that have already proved to be niche. Saying niche status is good enough is one thing. Admit the ideas are not main stream, highly succesful or enjoyed by the masses. But saying the entire industry should change to cater to the hardcore few is simply stupid and naive. You are right. What I would hope for, is that these millions of people haven't even seen these features before, since if we are referring to millions, they are probably WoW players. There is a chance that quite a bit of the masses that have never seen features such as these might actually like them. I know the ideas I posted aren't main stream, probably wouldn't be a booming success such as WoW, and probably wouldn't be enjoyed by the masses. I don't think the entire industry should cater to the few hardcore. But I do not like the fact that nearly every game coming out is trying to appeal to the masses in the way WoW does, while a fairly nice chunk of "Niche" audience is being somewhat left out in the cold. At this point, I think that if a company really put effort into a sandbox "niche" game, they could rack up way more subscribers then the already watered down WoW style market. Hell look at Eve, its beating Lotro in subscriptions. If that doesn't tell you something... Thanks for your input though, and sorry I came off the wrong way.(I think I was a tad bit frustrated when I wrote this anyway :P )
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I disagree. I could go into a big lengthy discussion of why I disagree but about 7 of your 10 opinions are completely offbase with mine including #1. Level based vs skill based is a complete non issue as both types of games end up exactly the same.
1) Levels. Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems! I don't mind level based systems, but I would like to see some better options in skill set based games. Levels have been around since the dawn of RPG's and I seriously doubt you will ever see them go away. Developers could add more to them though.
2) Loot based economies Loot based economies essential make time in game take precedence over skill. Being able to devote more of your life to a game shouldn't mean you automatically dominate those who can't play as much. Allow player skill to actually play a part in a fight, not just how many purples each person has. Loot also makes people run the same boring awful dungeons over and over again just so they can get that one item to drop. Loot based systems more often then not make crafting a pointless hobby for the select few that enjoy it. Very rarely do you see a loot based system with a creative, meaningful crafting system. Remove loot based systems and make crafters the major suppliers! You kinda touch on a few things here. Time vs reward, Loot systems, and Crafting systems. First Loot system need to get way better. You should not have to endlessly run something just to get that one drop you need. Smarter loot system are a must IMO.
Crafting systems also need to improve drastically. Most games crafting sucks and you end up making crap just to level up. Most games the stuff you can make from most crafting is crap compared to drops. Developers need to do better with crafting.
Time vs reward is never going to change. Remember you are playing an RPG. The main point of an RPG is to advance your character. That takes time, so those with more free time will always advance faster then those with less. It sucks and I agree that developers could balance it better, but you are stuck with this system. 3) Simplicity Why has simple become better? Some of us out here still like to think when we play our games. Some of us are more than mindless drones waiting to be spoon fed what to do next in my epic pre-determined saga of heroism that everyone else will endure. I want to think, I want to be challenged! Remove simplicity and challenge me! Not really sure what you mean by this. I think some of the best games keep things simple, but offer a vast array of play styles withing a simple rule set. I agree that it needs to be challenging, but remember that the more you over complicate things, the less fun it becomes. 4) XP penalties for grouping This one makes no sense to me. Why punish people for grouping up and working together in an online game designed for people to group up and work together? All XP penalties do is encourage solo play defeats the purpose of MMORPGs. Remove XP penalties for grouping and encourage social interaction again! I never understood why companies do this. Group penalties are one of the banes of MMORPG's. These game are supposed to be about community and this helps kill a community. 5) Boring linear gameplay I absolutely despise questing. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and because of number 3 on my list, lonely. I also hate being forced to quest. Occasionally I'll quest with someone, but it doesn't make much sense when all it does is slow you down. The worst part of forced questing to level is, if you decide to level another character, you have to do the same horrible quests again. My favorite way to level was the ways of Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, it was boring repetitive grinding on mobs, but the difference is that I was with a full group of people, and just interacting with them was far more entertaining then any static repetitive quest could ever be. Remove boring linear gameplay and figure other ways to progress! I disagree with removing quests, but I do miss having the option to mob grind at set camps. I do think quests need to be more in depth and have far FAR more variety. Having to do the same quests over makes playing an alt very VERY boring. Again I go back to having options. 6) FANTASY! For god's sake how many fantasy MMO's do we have to drown in every single year? I was never a big fan of fantasy, but lately that's all we see. Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Give us a good Sci-fi MMO, or think of some theme completely different! Remove the fantasy and be original! I like Fantasy, but agree that there are way too many. I am dieing for another good Sci-fi based game. Mechwarrior MMORPG, Robotech/Macross, Shadowrun, Warhammer 40K, hell there are so many cool IP's out there someone just needs to take a chance on one. 7) Official forums Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it! I have a love hate relationship with forums. They can be great, but honestly are only as good as the community. I don't think they are required for a good game and think money would be better spent on other things then forum management. 8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree) Instancing seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult. A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot. Instancing is not completely bad, but companies over user the hell out of it. They need to do a better job of mixing open and instanced dungeons. 9) Small Scale PvP Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP! I call these side games. It is fun to sit down and play a quick game, but making them the main focus sucks. It honestly feeds the over user of instancing. I don't think they need to get rid of them all together, but they should not be the main focus of a games PvP system. I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.
I would add faction grinding to this list. If I ever meet the person who created this rediculous mechanic I will have to beet them.
How about give options...? You just say: remove X. How about say: remove X, replace with Y. Hmm? Too hard for you? Hardly ever seen anyone complaining about X, and giving a acceptable Y. Normally they replace it with crap ideas, that on one agrees with...
Totally agree here for example I have heard a million times over on sites like this how level based is a "poor" system that needs to be replaced, ok if its so poor tell us how we would be replacing it with what if it's poor you guys should easily have a system in mind but I never hear one suggestion as if with all the games they create for us they can each have some "miracle" advancement system in place.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
How about give options...? You just say: remove X. How about say: remove X, replace with Y. Hmm? Too hard for you? Hardly ever seen anyone complaining about X, and giving a acceptable Y. Normally they replace it with crap ideas, that on one agrees with...
Amen.
Simplicity is there to attract the masses for SALES. Sure there are enough gamers out there to provide decent profit with a complex game, but all those millions upon millions of people. WoW set a standard with simplicity and they instantly dominated the market. now all other MMO games want to tap into that resource and they struggle to do it because Blizzard is a beast when it comes to publicity and polish. A good company will make something simple but add a good depth of compleity to it for the hardcore player.
Instancing. Damnit I hated in DAOC, I would go into the darkness falls or vendo caverns with a team only to find the entrance camped. Go in deeper and you find another area camped. Get to the point where you have quest and you camp one little spot as you wait for monsters to spawn. BORING. Plus all those tactics and CC were never used as you killed mobs as they spawned.
Instanced dungeons provide a set guantlet, that your team must have SKILLS to get through. No other players get in the way of your challenge. No one else to dull the experience. also you can experience epic cutscene storylines through instancing.
No levels, no dependancy on items. honestly you can only do without one or the other. How the hell are players going to gain power for the harder challenges in the game if they don't recieve level ups or item bonuses. Without either of these you cold basically have a level one character trek into the ultimate doom dungeon with a pertner and see the best the game has to offer right at day one. Even a skill based game is one of leveling in a sense.
You show me a game where you could encounter awesome awe inspiring battles of doom, rewards for players, in depth questing, exploration of new areas with danger; yet no levels and no powerful itemization.
Even real life has "level ups" you learn a skill, you focus on it, you get better, then you move up in life and afford better things. Even fallout 2 had friggin levels. I just don't understand how a game is not supposed to have these 2 things.
Linear gamplay. you kind of need a set path of progression for players. The more open a game is the fewer set challenges there will be. You'll get a lot of quest like, kill 10 of these for farmer Jon. craft this item for maid Sue. Woopy doo!
I am in favor of a more open game world with a wide variety of challenges in each area. But having level 1/ noob quest at the Ultimate Demon Gods fortress is a little odd. Every area can't have noob quest and every area cant have high end content. you would have to somehow section off these different difficulty quest so noob players don't get trapped in over their head.
Nearly everything you guys want to get rid of in todays mmo market are needed to make games engaging and complete. Old school games with bland graphics and a stagnat world, frozen in time, were able to support non instanced dungeons, non linear gameplay. Todays games are too graphically intense to support super huge dungeons that could house hundreds of people at once and STILL remain visually interesting. todays game tell a story and that every player should experience, no matter when they join the game.
Amen!
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
How about give options...? You just say: remove X. How about say: remove X, replace with Y. Hmm? Too hard for you? Hardly ever seen anyone complaining about X, and giving a acceptable Y. Normally they replace it with crap ideas, that on one agrees with...
Totally agree here for example I have heard a million times over on sites like this how level based is a "poor" system that needs to be replaced, ok if its so poor tell us how we would be replacing it with what if it's poor you guys should easily have a system in mind but I never hear one suggestion as if with all the games they create for us they can each have some "miracle" advancement system in place.
Star Wars Galaxies Skill box based system. Done.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Whats wrong with what he was asking? They're all wonderful ideas. He's just tired of the watered down, made for the masses, shallow games designed to suck up as much money as possible. WoW, Age of Conan, ect ect...
The problem used to be grinding mobs took forever and was boring. So they gave us quests. Now quests are even worse of a grind, and destroy community. No one has to group together anymore.
Quests should give some EXP, but it shouldn't be the only way to level. Groups should be given MORE experience for being together (as was the case in Dark Age of Camelot) and quests should be fewer, and more in depth. It would be nice if people would actually be together again in MMOs.
ther ein fact are games out like this CoH/V is a game that comes to mind besides the fact that you get bonus exp for grouping groups can usually work at such a faster pace that they would out gain solo anyway, but I don't really see any big conspiracy to design games that try to make people group less every game I've ever played has had some sort of content that could not be tackled without a group but I'd say it's just good business because I couldn't see myself playing a game depandant upon grouping more than solo because there is nothing worse than not even being able to do something in game unless someone else wants to do what you want to.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Comments
Funny how you assume. I am actually working on my Computer Science degree with the intent of going into the gaming industry. And don't you worry, I have already been working on an extensive outline for an open world, sandbox MMORPG that I want to make one day.
No hard feelings, but I won't be offended if you can't grasp the complexity and depth of my game.
OP: Either you are straight up lying or you are self made billionaire. I will say right now that your 'ideas' will never see the light of day. You obviously don't think before you speak all of these ideas have been in games before one way shape or form...tested for playability and found to be impossible to implement as live content. While every single one of your points are bogus, I will just focus on one...
Honestly I should have just stopped reading right here. You're are either a troll(a bad one at that), or a complete moron. All of my features were found to be impossible to implement as live content? LOL. There all bogus? LOL. Let me just go through the run down of games that have what I asked for that had them as live content.
1) No levels.
Eve, SWG pre-CU.
2) Crafter based economies
Eve, SWG pre-cu.
3) Simplicity
I don't even know how to respond to this one. Clearly there have been many complex games in the past, but according to you all of my points are bogus or found that they were unable to be implemented into live... LOL.
But for the sake of proving you wrong, Eve.
4) XP penalties for grouping
I know SWG pre-nge didn't have a penalty for grouping. In fact they had a bonus for grouping. Imagine that.
5) Boring linear gameplay
Obviously many games have avoided this by either not having linear gameplay or not having boring game play. Guild Wars was pretty linear questing, but extremely entertaining with good cut scenes and story. Pretty much any sandbox will not have linear gameplay.
6) Fantasy
Clearly, there have been other themes besides fantasy in mmos, CoX with super hero theme, many sci -fi games, yeah you are wrong again.
7) Official forums
Guild wars doesn't have official forums and it works quite nicely. A lot less whining.
8) No instancing
Many games have been seemless worlds with no instancing. Eve, SWG Pre-cu to stay with the theme.
9) Small scale pvp
Again, many games have been able to go live with no small scale instanced PvP.
Wow, I just proved you wrong on every single one of my points that you called "Bogus" or "Impossible to implement as live content". Maybe you should take your own advice, and think before you open your mouth.
XP while grouping: I know you might not be able to grasp the complexity and depth of this explaination but I will try anyway.
This will be the example: killing mob X solo will get you 200xp and it takes you 1 min. to kill. Now you group with someone and there is no penalty for grouping, now 2 people are killing that same mob in 30secs each getting 200xp. So essentially cutting your leveling time in half. So with only 2 in a group you will level twice as fast. Now lets make it a group of 6 that same mob now takes only 10secs to kill and everyone gets 200xp WOW now you can level 6 times as fast. So giving that rate you could make a char. and level them to cap in a few days days...But wait...o yes I do recall you saying you want the Simplicity taken out of games....hmm leveling to cap in a few days thats pretty simple. So maybe now you can grasp the complexity of xp sharing in a group...its not a penalty as you call it.
To further make my point in Everquest there was no 'xp penalty' for grouping wtih high levels which resulted in new people getting power leveled to cap in about 1 1/2 days....All of your points have been done in games and they don't work its that simple.
So this brings me back to my original statement you must be lying because you don't have a clue about developing a playable game. So please just stop with your self-righteous BS.
Congratulations, your clever command of simple division has really stumped me. Now, how to explain this in terms you can understand...
There are two, yes two, ways to explain how no xp penalties for grouping can and have worked. Now you will have to step out of the WoW box for a moment and run with me here.
1) XP is tuned for groups. Now get this, the amount of xp you need to level is actually tuned for the amount of xp you get in a group. Perhaps the xp amounts are tuned for having half a group. Having more people gives you a slight bonus to the xp you get, since your amazing use of division has already proven that the more people in the group, the faster you kill. Now, you might get a slight reduction in the amount of xp you get if you go solo because you won't kill as fast. In this scenario, people won't be power leveling because the game is actually designed to give people a bonus for grouping.
Now for scenario number 2, and this one might blow your little WoW mind...
2) Leveling isn't the primary content of the game! Perhaps a game isn't really about "leveling" your character to max, but about what you can do with your character once it is max. I know this sounds crazy, but making specific content for while you level actually reduces the amount of content you have when you are max.(Your great math skills can easily figure out why this is). So if a game were designed to make leveling a sort of short "Get to know your class/spec" instead of a "bore you to death while you grind out quests until you get to max level to actually start having fun", you could actually spend more time adding things to do in the game once your character is maxed, as oppose to wasting the time of the developers on making content that will only be seen by characters briefly as they race through their levels to get to max anyway. If you create a game around leveling, players might get pretty bored doing it, and end game content will suffer. With characters having finished a boring level grind, and finding nothing to do at max level, customer longevity will be missing.
I truly hope you are just a bad troll... Because that was just bad.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
3) Simplicity
Challenge me with the world content, not the user interface. The user interface should be simple and user friendly.
Challenging (or complex) game content is good, but a different issue from the actual client interface. I do prefer games where you have to take a tactical approach when fighting; where just wading in and trying to kill everything will get you killed.
Wow, I just proved you wrong on every single one of my points that you called "Bogus" or "Impossible to implement as live content". Maybe you should take your own advice, and think before you open your mouth.
This is too funny you proved me wrong?....to quote you yet again...your 'points' to prove me wrong were EVE and SWG pre cu?
Did I miss something because I'm pretty sure both of those games have a very small playerbase..so um yeah people are just flocking to both those games....woah lookout you got me those gamebreaking ideas you came up with man I can't believe I missed those to steller examples of mmorpgs. Too funny.
There are two, yes two, ways to explain how no xp penalties for grouping can and have worked. Now you will have to step out of the WoW box for a moment and run with me here.
1) XP is tuned for groups. Now get this, the amount of xp you need to level is actually tuned for the amount of xp you get in a group. Perhaps the xp amounts are tuned for having half a group. Having more people gives you a slight bonus to the xp you get, since your amazing use of division has already proven that the more people in the group, the faster you kill. Now, you might get a slight reduction in the amount of xp you get if you go solo because you won't kill as fast. In this scenario, people won't be power leveling because the game is actually designed to give people a bonus for grouping.
Again lol so instead of making xp less in groups (because you are killing faster essentially increasing your xp per hour) and leaving the xp to level the same...you want to increase group xp and also increase the xp to level...wow brilliant...so the same thing is effectively accomplished...yes your brilliance is just overwheming.
Now for scenario number 2, and this one might blow your little WoW mind...
2) Leveling isn't the primary content of the game! Perhaps a game isn't really about "leveling" your character to max, but about what you can do with your character once it is max. I know this sounds crazy, but making specific content for while you level actually reduces the amount of content you have when you are max.(Your great math skills can easily figure out why this is). So if a game were designed to make leveling a sort of short "Get to know your class/spec" instead of a "bore you to death while you grind out quests until you get to max level to actually start having fun", you could actually spend more time adding things to do in the game once your character is maxed, as oppose to wasting the time of the developers on making content that will only be seen by characters briefly as they race through their levels to get to max anyway. If you create a game around leveling, players might get pretty bored doing it, and end game content will suffer. With characters having finished a boring level grind, and finding nothing to do at max level, customer longevity will be missing.
As afraid I am to say it I understand what you are saying here but you never metioned this under your ' xp group penalty removed' heading. But it its still a concept that contradicts what makes an rpg an rpg.
So what you want is to.... buy new game, load game, login, create char., play a few days are at level cap with all your new abilities and then play all the content?...1) Sounds like a console game. 2) Again you just contradict yourself on the simpicity issue.....you want to have a max char./class in a 'short' amount of time yet you want it complex?...Well in order for you to understand your char./class it will have to be simple enough to learn in a few days, so you can 'enjoy' all the end game content or on the flip side the end game content will have to be simple in order for it to be 'fun' to play with a few day old maxed out char./class.
But I'm sure you will have some comeback so it really doesn't matter how much I or anyone else explains simple gameplay mechanics and the reason these concepts are not persued anymore. As far as the fantasy theme goes....unfortunately other genre's don't have enought char/class diversity to make it appealing to everyone. Maybe a post-apocalyptic theme with magic as well as sci-fi but I digress.
O and btw thanks for assuming I play WoW not that it really matters but I don't play that game...at all...lol. Too funny.
This is too funny you proved me wrong?....to quote you yet again...your 'points' to prove me wrong were EVE and SWG pre cu?
Did I miss something because I'm pretty sure both of those games have a very small playerbase..so um yeah people are just flocking to both those games....woah lookout you got me those gamebreaking ideas you came up with man I can't believe I missed those to steller examples of mmorpgs. Too funny.
Back before SWG was ruined by SOE, they had over 200k subs. This was pre-WoW days, so yeah, that was highly respectable. Eve is up to 250k subs. For a niche game that hasn't been advertised and has a lot of the features that you claim are "bogus" or "impossible", yeah I would say 250k subs is awesome.
Again lol so instead of making xp less in groups (because you are killing faster essentially increasing your xp per hour) and leaving the xp to level the same...you want to increase group xp and also increase the xp to level...wow brilliant...so the same thing is effectively accomplished...yes your brilliance is just overwheming.
Hmmph... Once again you fail to comprehend what this would actually lead to. I don't know If I should even bother responding anymore. Think(I know this is tough for you) about it a little more... What is DIFFERENT about an xp penalty for a group as compared to no xp penalty with raised xp amounts needed.... think about it...An xp bonus for groups encourages grouping, while an xp penalty encourages solo play. Ahhh that was a toughy. You see, if more xp is needed to level, but there is no group xp penalty, then people are more inclined to group because it will actually be the fastest. Where as, with an xp penalty for grouping, it is actually quite slower to level. I'll explain this part too, since independent thinking just isn't your style. It is slower because when xp is shared among members, essentially you should be killing, in a group of 5 lets say, 5 times faster, but getting 1/5 of the xp. Now, that sounds like its the same speed as solo play, but take into account the time it takes to find the group, get the group together, make sure everyone is on the same quests, get everyone to the same quests, and bam, grouping just become slower grinding then solo. So a system that gives a bonus for grouping actually encourages grouping, while a system which gives no bonus(shared xp) actually encourages solo play.
Change that around to where you get full XP for grouping or going solo with raised xp limits, and grouping almost becomes necessary and forced(not necessarily saying I support forced grouping).
As afraid I am to say it I understand what you are saying here but you never metioned this under your ' xp group penalty removed' heading. But it its still a concept that contradicts what makes an rpg an rpg.
So what you want is to.... buy new game, load game, login, create char., play a few days are at level cap with all your new abilities and then play all the content?...1) Sounds like a console game. 2) Again you just contradict yourself on the simpicity issue.....you want to have a max char./class in a 'short' amount of time yet you want it complex?...Well in order for you to understand your char./class it will have to be simple enough to learn in a few days, so you can 'enjoy' all the end game content or on the flip side the end game content will have to be simple in order for it to be 'fun' to play with a few day old maxed out char./class.
I seem to be noticing a trend here... Again, your going to have to think outside of the box just a smidge. Have you ever heard the saying "Easy to learn, hard to master"? For any game to be successful, it needs to be easy to learn. You can have games that are easy to learn, but still be complex. Sure, you can build a character in a week or so, but this doesn't mean you fully understand everything about that character, or have mastered it's play. You see, players may build a character in a short amount of time, but it doesn't mean they built it right. I can remember in SWG I built a pretty crappy build the first time I leveled. After seeing how the build wasn't working out, I changed it around to something that I liked a lot better, and did a lot better with.
But I'm sure you will have some comeback so it really doesn't matter how much I or anyone else explains simple gameplay mechanics and the reason these concepts are not persued anymore. As far as the fantasy theme goes....unfortunately other genre's don't have enought char/class diversity to make it appealing to everyone. Maybe a post-apocalyptic theme with magic as well as sci-fi but I digress.
When you reply to a complete stranger's personal opinion like a complete ass-hat, your going to get a vile response back. If you would have come into the thread saying "I see what you are saying, but disagree and here is why", then we can have a civil conversation. But you came into this thread with a hostile attitude, and as such are being treated like the douche you are representing yourself to be.
O and btw thanks for assuming I play WoW not that it really matters but I don't play that game...at all...lol. Too funny.
Sorry, couldn't help but assume since your maturity level and creative thinking match those of the "WoW is my first and only MMO" players.
And that is in no way a dis on WoW, that is a dis on their players. The community in that game is really bad. I personally think the game, for what it is, is pretty good. Not exactly my cup of tea, but for what it is they did a pretty good job.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Sigh it sounds like you need to think outside the box. Because the only game you claim is worth playing is SWG pre-cu. Not that it makes my points anymore valid or not but I played EQ for years...BETA'd SWG and went through that whole nightmare...so I know exactly what you are wanting in a game. Not to mention the other AAA titles that I have played to level cap looking for the game to home.
Let me give you my opinion on the whole 'make a game like SWG-pre cu'
The so called vetrans have short term memory. The game they constantantly whine to have back (SWG pre-cu) is the same game they (at the time) were whining to change and fix. They didn't like the game PRE-CU either but it wasn't until after CU that they realized...'O wait the original SWG wasn't so bad, and suddenly lost all recollection as to why the disliked the game in its original state because CU was so bad.' Which resulted in the 'Community' screaming that SOE took away the game they loved....the game was never loved, as a tester and active voice on the forums then, very few liked the original game. But it is funny to see everyone now say how great SWG pre cu was and wish they had that back, eventhough those same people at the time were on the forums everyday screaming for change....
Eve is a niche game the only combat is space and that is tatical. Not appealing to most.
Any group based game that comes out... which yourself says is what you want...to group. will have to have 3 base classes......Meat shield, DPS/Nuker, and healer
In order for people to group there needs to be group dynamics SWG had none....that whole game especially in its Pre- CU days was entirely solo, there was no reason to group. There was no tank or true healing class just variations on DPS. The only time you would group was to PVP or Zerg something.
And your xp idea which however you want to insult me this time, anyway you want to spin it...it is the same concept.....and why will grouping be easier all of a sudden when you give an xp boost? You should talk to a veteran FFXI player it has your group xp bonus...which forces grouping after level 5 and its still near impossible to find a group and level.
It sounds like to me the only games you've played seriously was SWG and WOW. One you love and one you love to hate. If you truly are a critical thinking developer to be, then study the games that have gone before...all of them and you will find each of your 'ideas' implemented and if you care to peel the SWG Pre-cu blinders off your eyes you will see why most likely you wont see them again.
Good luck trying to get into the games industry while calling the most succesful games crap. That stuff may fly in highschool or college, but in the REAL world, professionals will laugh at you and not take you serious. Just a warning to all the fledgling game designers prowling the boards.
If you're going to mock everyone's ideas that are proven to WORK, just be prepared when those people don't want to work with you. Nobody likes a kid with no experience telling them how to do everything, esspecially when your ideas have been thought up many times, whether you beleive it or not.
People who haven't liked certain ideas for years aren't going to change their tune. Millions of people aren't going to suddenly LOVE features from games that have already proved to be niche. Saying niche status is good enough is one thing. Admit the ideas are not main stream, highly succesful or enjoyed by the masses. But saying the entire industry should change to cater to the hardcore few is simply stupid and naive.
lol you need to actually read the whole post. On nearly everything on the list that I wanted removed, I gave the alternative(if there was one) I preferred. But I did enjoy your misinformed, stuck up sarcasm.
i r drunk/high like i havent been in years -.o
HAHAHAHAH... hehe... ehe.
LMAO Have one for me today and five on Saturday for me.
then next week while i am having Surgery you can have the hangover LOL.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I disagree. I could go into a big lengthy discussion of why I disagree but about 7 of your 10 opinions are completely offbase with mine including #1. Level based vs skill based is a complete non issue as both types of games end up exactly the same.
and nudity.
but add cupcakes! ^_^
I would add faction grinding to this list. If I ever meet the person who created this rediculous mechanic I will have to beet them.
Totally agree here for example I have heard a million times over on sites like this how level based is a "poor" system that needs to be replaced, ok if its so poor tell us how we would be replacing it with what if it's poor you guys should easily have a system in mind but I never hear one suggestion as if with all the games they create for us they can each have some "miracle" advancement system in place.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Amen.
Simplicity is there to attract the masses for SALES. Sure there are enough gamers out there to provide decent profit with a complex game, but all those millions upon millions of people. WoW set a standard with simplicity and they instantly dominated the market. now all other MMO games want to tap into that resource and they struggle to do it because Blizzard is a beast when it comes to publicity and polish. A good company will make something simple but add a good depth of compleity to it for the hardcore player.
Instancing. Damnit I hated in DAOC, I would go into the darkness falls or vendo caverns with a team only to find the entrance camped. Go in deeper and you find another area camped. Get to the point where you have quest and you camp one little spot as you wait for monsters to spawn. BORING. Plus all those tactics and CC were never used as you killed mobs as they spawned.
Instanced dungeons provide a set guantlet, that your team must have SKILLS to get through. No other players get in the way of your challenge. No one else to dull the experience. also you can experience epic cutscene storylines through instancing.
No levels, no dependancy on items. honestly you can only do without one or the other. How the hell are players going to gain power for the harder challenges in the game if they don't recieve level ups or item bonuses. Without either of these you cold basically have a level one character trek into the ultimate doom dungeon with a pertner and see the best the game has to offer right at day one. Even a skill based game is one of leveling in a sense.
You show me a game where you could encounter awesome awe inspiring battles of doom, rewards for players, in depth questing, exploration of new areas with danger; yet no levels and no powerful itemization.
Even real life has "level ups" you learn a skill, you focus on it, you get better, then you move up in life and afford better things. Even fallout 2 had friggin levels. I just don't understand how a game is not supposed to have these 2 things.
Linear gamplay. you kind of need a set path of progression for players. The more open a game is the fewer set challenges there will be. You'll get a lot of quest like, kill 10 of these for farmer Jon. craft this item for maid Sue. Woopy doo!
I am in favor of a more open game world with a wide variety of challenges in each area. But having level 1/ noob quest at the Ultimate Demon Gods fortress is a little odd. Every area can't have noob quest and every area cant have high end content. you would have to somehow section off these different difficulty quest so noob players don't get trapped in over their head.
Nearly everything you guys want to get rid of in todays mmo market are needed to make games engaging and complete. Old school games with bland graphics and a stagnat world, frozen in time, were able to support non instanced dungeons, non linear gameplay. Todays games are too graphically intense to support super huge dungeons that could house hundreds of people at once and STILL remain visually interesting. todays game tell a story and that every player should experience, no matter when they join the game.
Amen!
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Totally agree here for example I have heard a million times over on sites like this how level based is a "poor" system that needs to be replaced, ok if its so poor tell us how we would be replacing it with what if it's poor you guys should easily have a system in mind but I never hear one suggestion as if with all the games they create for us they can each have some "miracle" advancement system in place.
Star Wars Galaxies Skill box based system. Done.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Whats wrong with what he was asking? They're all wonderful ideas. He's just tired of the watered down, made for the masses, shallow games designed to suck up as much money as possible. WoW, Age of Conan, ect ect...
The problem used to be grinding mobs took forever and was boring. So they gave us quests. Now quests are even worse of a grind, and destroy community. No one has to group together anymore.
Quests should give some EXP, but it shouldn't be the only way to level. Groups should be given MORE experience for being together (as was the case in Dark Age of Camelot) and quests should be fewer, and more in depth. It would be nice if people would actually be together again in MMOs.
ther ein fact are games out like this CoH/V is a game that comes to mind besides the fact that you get bonus exp for grouping groups can usually work at such a faster pace that they would out gain solo anyway, but I don't really see any big conspiracy to design games that try to make people group less every game I've ever played has had some sort of content that could not be tackled without a group but I'd say it's just good business because I couldn't see myself playing a game depandant upon grouping more than solo because there is nothing worse than not even being able to do something in game unless someone else wants to do what you want to.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
i agree with almost everything on that list