Id love to say NGE and CU but I just cant find it my heart to do so the true wrecker of the game was Jedi once introduced everything revolved around them.
With OOP/modular programming, yeah there was a team there,
Data abstraction means someone can produce a function/procedure...and only have to worry about the format of arguments that are passed between it and main programs.
This stuff is normally divided into different grps.
Koster was in charge of the project.
It was his ideas they were implementing.
You say the code wasnt efficient...but how many times is that the case on any program? Is there ever truly a "perfect" program coder out there?
You may use a boolean flag to check for a negative condition...I may reference the same looking for a positive. Does one run better on an AMD...is it the same on the Intel machine?
There are so many ways to skin a cat when it comes to programming. Granted you wanna keep to the least amount of commands if possible. But then again, there are cases where clock cycles may actually take longer on the "shorter" program due to extreme calculations.
I havent worked with Assembler since the 486 days. My most recent work was with an interfacing program known as Labview, and some visual basic. I have been out of everything almost 7 yrs now(disability)
Now I dont know squat about DB programming. I just know they had TONS of information being passed vs generic data sets that would be seen on fixed items in other games. HUGE lag material from everyone needing to tap the DB for the various non-standard/uniform data.
Throw some blame at Smedley, throw some at the coders if you want...it still doesnt change that this was Kosters baby.
It wasnt the first MMO he worked on either. He had background in what he could get away with from UO...and he still put more into game than what he would be able to have ready.
You say he shouldnt of worried about any directed content? Ok...then where were all the neat sandbox toys to make your own stuff with?
And Fisher...if I lived in Texas rather than Michigan, I would drive over to SOE this instant, camp out at the front door, and not leave till I got you those papers you wanna see. Smed would hand em over just so he wouldnt have to see me at the front door daily waiting for him to walk by.
Since I dont live in Texas though...too friggen bad. Get em yourself bro :P
And one last thing...I actually did some machine code programming on a Motorola 6800 trainer when I was working on my Associates in Electronics degree back in 91. We got to do a little motorola assembler on a 68000 also...but semester come to end pretty quick. Built a frequency counter out of TTL chips in that class...good to 1Mhz.
Was my favorite class from my degree...and what helped pave the way to me taking up programming. Should of been done by now with Bachelor in Computer Science if my health hadnt landed me on disability. Had like 10 classes left.
You are making the claim that it is too expensive to make a good sandbox with toys. I don't believe you. I feel it is not only doable, but it's the Next Big Thing. WoW is the big thing now because it comes closest to that. the game that comes closer to that ideal will beat WoW, and so on, until we are there. The money is there because Blizzard came close and only spent 30 million, If I recall correctly.
Fisher
You are putting words in my mouth bro, or I am not coming across with what I am trying to say very well.
Let me try to break it down into 2 areas...
I am saying he put too much variation into game for that day/age. I may not have a background with actual DBs, but I sure as hell wrote ascii/binary files as input/output for various programs I worked on. It doesnt take Rocket Science to realize that when you got 2 or 3k users on a server, all looking for unique data in a data-base, that it is going to be a bottle neck...vs those 2 or 3k folks searching for generic items.
Maybe...just maybe they could of gotten away with it utilizing todays technology. Back when they started in 98ish, he over-bit on what he could chew. Remember that in 93/94, a 486 with 2M RAM was considered a good machine. By 98 the standards had gone up, but nothing like todays standards.
I dont know how popular that type of sand box game will be when it is made correctly. I am sure depending on theme, it will do decent enough. WoW killer? I dont know I would make a claim of that...but who is to say?
I see NWN 1 and 2, and they have the mod sets to create content. I happen to like both games, but havent been one to download a bunch of the user stuff. SOme folks say it is pretty good material...well some of it at least.
SO perhaps I would be one to enjoy a proper sandbox. I cant say one way or another since I havent played one. The world sim stuff though I know I wouldnt enjoy. Being able to run cool dungeons/whatever created by others...yeah I could get into liking that stuff if done properly.
SWG wasnt a proper sandbox. The tools for all that great user content wasnt there. Let alone the fixed content that should of been there besides. I dont consider lair missions "good" fixed content.
Instead Koster ran around in circles during dev time trying to balance 45 bajillion items(classes/tradeskill stuff/etc etc).
Bugs/content/user created content never got the proper attention. Had he kept the tradeskill/class count down, he would of had time for other things. It was too much back then, and might still be till this very day. 32(?) classes is a ton to keep up with...let alone the rest of a game.
As far as the cost too much....yes I feel to make a game that not only is the sand box variety, but also offers the tons of pregenerated content ala EQ is too much even for today in terms of Dev time/costs. 2 different concepts here bro. Thus I seperated the ideas.
We have talked about the "ultimate" sandbox/PVE game before Fisher. Think the 2 ideas are kind of getting mixed up in this thread. We have both agreed if someone ever makes a game that covers both bases it should rule the MMO world...especially if it had a SW tag on it.
We wont see this game for 5 to 10 more yrs. Too much is involved.
You are seeing gaming companies using pre-generated engines from other companies to cut down dev time on games. I would have to think eventually sand box material will be offered in pre-generated form as well.
When that happens, then you will see the 2 types of gaming styles incorporated IMO. Just not before, as I have indicated prior, as it is too much to do.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
After reading the threads, I won't join. Why didn't the game designers see this as clearly and then WHY didn't they change it back to the initial setup of a few knights and only the elite players?
It's such a shame. Is it still worth playing at all?
People, including at least one former dev from SOE, have suggested that marketting types began suggesting radical changes to the game that would be sure to make the game a success. Many of these radical changes would copy WoW outright, others seemed to copy another successful game at the time, StarWars Battlefront.
So, instead of following through on their original vision, and implementing the bug fixes that players and devs worked on together, SOE tried to tap into WoW's audience via two rushed, bug-ridden, unwanted entire game revamps. The second revamp was arguably the worst, in that much of the players' progress up to that point was simply deleted, along with most of the game's professions.
Add to that the idea that the second revamp was a surprise, and that it invalidated much of a new expansion people just paid for two weeks earlier, and you have an MMO catastrophe.
Since all of that has happened, SOE has slowly added back some of the features that used to make the game enjoyable. They have also addressed some bugs and issues, but many still remain, and the playerbase has been put through a meat grinder.
Now there's talk of a new StarWars MMO coming out in a couple of years, and people wonder if SWG will survive.
So, I think a lot of the devs knew what needed to be done, but they weren't sitting in the big chair. In fact, some devs warned management that their strategy was going to cost them much of their current playerbase. A minority of the devs present were pitching some of the whacky ideas that ended up in the second, hated revamp, but many (probably most) were not. Some developers left SOE when they learned what was going on, and others asked for transfers to other projects.
So, what went wrong? In summary, everything I've seen suggests that with WoW's success, management hit the panic button and decided upon a poorly thought out "copy wow" strategy, instead of sticking with their original vision and making it a success. In so doing, they turned a game with some problems into a nightmare, alienated most of their players and damaged their reputation in the industry.
And this is one reason I am getting sick of MMORPGS. They are always sacrificing the original vision that got them the success they have. This doesn't just apply to SOE, even though they are the worse for doing this. WoW has ruined there own game by trying to add features of new games that are percieved threats. Seige weapons? Flying mounts? A pure focus on PVP? Yep, WoW is just a crumbling game now trying to be something it isn't. They should remember how they got their success, it was the original game design they put forth. Same goes for SOE and there games, EQ, SWG.
I wish a game company would stop trying to change the structure of a great game mid through with expansions. I can go back and play the great game of Baldur's Gate but I can not go back and play EQ because it is no longer the great game it was. You know what, Baldur's Gate still is there playable as the original vision intended it to be and it is still great. It is it's own game. MMORPGs do not go down in history gracefully they go down crumbling.
With OOP/modular programming, yeah there was a team there, Data abstraction means someone can produce a function/procedure...and only have to worry about the format of arguments that are passed between it and main programs. This stuff is normally divided into different grps. Koster was in charge of the project. It was his ideas they were implementing. You say the code wasnt efficient...but how many times is that the case on any program? Is there ever truly a "perfect" program coder out there? You may use a boolean flag to check for a negative condition...I may reference the same looking for a positive. Does one run better on an AMD...is it the same on the Intel machine? There are so many ways to skin a cat when it comes to programming. Granted you wanna keep to the least amount of commands if possible. But then again, there are cases where clock cycles may actually take longer on the "shorter" program due to extreme calculations. I havent worked with Assembler since the 486 days. My most recent work was with an interfacing program known as Labview, and some visual basic. I have been out of everything almost 7 yrs now(disability) Now I dont know squat about DB programming. I just know they had TONS of information being passed vs generic data sets that would be seen on fixed items in other games. HUGE lag material from everyone needing to tap the DB for the various non-standard/uniform data. Throw some blame at Smedley, throw some at the coders if you want...it still doesnt change that this was Kosters baby. It wasnt the first MMO he worked on either. He had background in what he could get away with from UO...and he still put more into game than what he would be able to have ready. You say he shouldnt of worried about any directed content? Ok...then where were all the neat sandbox toys to make your own stuff with? And Fisher...if I lived in Texas rather than Michigan, I would drive over to SOE this instant, camp out at the front door, and not leave till I got you those papers you wanna see. Smed would hand em over just so he wouldnt have to see me at the front door daily waiting for him to walk by. Since I dont live in Texas though...too friggen bad. Get em yourself bro :P And one last thing...I actually did some machine code programming on a Motorola 6800 trainer when I was working on my Associates in Electronics degree back in 91. We got to do a little motorola assembler on a 68000 also...but semester come to end pretty quick. Built a frequency counter out of TTL chips in that class...good to 1Mhz. Was my favorite class from my degree...and what helped pave the way to me taking up programming. Should of been done by now with Bachelor in Computer Science if my health hadnt landed me on disability. Had like 10 classes left.
You are making the claim that it is too expensive to make a good sandbox with toys. I don't believe you. I feel it is not only doable, but it's the Next Big Thing. WoW is the big thing now because it comes closest to that. the game that comes closer to that ideal will beat WoW, and so on, until we are there. The money is there because Blizzard came close and only spent 30 million, If I recall correctly.
Fisher
You are putting words in my mouth bro, or I am not coming across with what I am trying to say very well.
Let me try to break it down into 2 areas...
I am saying he put too much variation into game for that day/age. I may not have a background with actual DBs, but I sure as hell wrote ascii/binary files as input/output for various programs I worked on. It doesnt take Rocket Science to realize that when you got 2 or 3k users on a server, all looking for unique data in a data-base, that it is going to be a bottle neck...vs those 2 or 3k folks searching for generic items. Maybe...just maybe they could of gotten away with it utilizing todays technology. Back when they started in 98ish, he over-bit on what he could chew. Remember that in 93/94, a 486 with 2M RAM was considered a good machine. By 98 the standards had gone up, but nothing like todays standards. I dont know how popular that type of sand box game will be when it is made correctly. I am sure depending on theme, it will do decent enough. WoW killer? I dont know I would make a claim of that...but who is to say? I see NWN 1 and 2, and they have the mod sets to create content. I happen to like both games, but havent been one to download a bunch of the user stuff. SOme folks say it is pretty good material...well some of it at least. SO perhaps I would be one to enjoy a proper sandbox. I cant say one way or another since I havent played one. The world sim stuff though I know I wouldnt enjoy. Being able to run cool dungeons/whatever created by others...yeah I could get into liking that stuff if done properly. SWG wasnt a proper sandbox. The tools for all that great user content wasnt there. Let alone the fixed content that should of been there besides. I dont consider lair missions "good" fixed content. Instead Koster ran around in circles during dev time trying to balance 45 bajillion items(classes/tradeskill stuff/etc etc). Bugs/content/user created content never got the proper attention. Had he kept the tradeskill/class count down, he would of had time for other things. It was too much back then, and might still be till this very day. 32(?) classes is a ton to keep up with...let alone the rest of a game. It shipped as a POS...and has remained as such. ************************************************************************************ As far as the cost too much....yes I feel to make a game that not only is the sand box variety, but also offers the tons of pregenerated content ala EQ is too much even for today in terms of Dev time/costs. 2 different concepts here bro. Thus I seperated the ideas. We have talked about the "ultimate" sandbox/PVE game before Fisher. Think the 2 ideas are kind of getting mixed up in this thread. We have both agreed if someone ever makes a game that covers both bases it should rule the MMO world...especially if it had a SW tag on it. We wont see this game for 5 to 10 more yrs. Too much is involved. You are seeing gaming companies using pre-generated engines from other companies to cut down dev time on games. I would have to think eventually sand box material will be offered in pre-generated form as well. When that happens, then you will see the 2 types of gaming styles incorporated IMO. Just not before, as I have indicated prior, as it is too much to do.
I disagree. I feel it can be done, could have been done, and should have been done. A simple sandbox with toys is hardly ultimate and it is completely do-able. All it takes is someone who doesn't try toi do so on the cheap, as Smedley and SONY do.
I see no support for what you are saying. The "it's too haaaaaaaaard" argument doesn't sell me.
Indeed... if people quit trying to accomplish things because "it's too hard," where would we be today?
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
The Emu is legal so just play that, it's actually quite good now with lots of stuff missing but still combat and classes are all there and lots of items.
---------------------------------------- Talking about SWG much?
I remember when the Jedi system was first implemented, and it basically involved grinding nearly every profession to unlock your jedi slot. This totally trashed the game. No one cared about anything but grinding. The community events stopped because everyone was grinding.
The biggest thing that SWG held was a fantastic community based game. Everything was based on the player base and there were no instances. This allowed for very high interactivity. Also, houses were super cool, even before cities were released. People threw partties and made bands/damce troupes etc. This was the true cohesiveness of the game. Once everyone and their mother spent all their time grinding the 20 professions or w/e it killed the game.
I remember when the Jedi system was first implemented, and it basically involved grinding nearly every profession to unlock your jedi slot. This totally trashed the game. No one cared about anything but grinding. The community events stopped because everyone was grinding.
That didn't happen when the Jedi system was implemented. It happened when the developes and marketing got antsy because nobody was unlocking Jedi, and decided to to expalin how Jedi was unlocked, and then gave away holocrons to point everyone in that direction. The hologrind killed the game for almost everyone who wasn't interested in unlocking Jedi. Grouping died out, and many of the entertainers and doctors stoped playing the game in favor of grinding out professions.
The hologrind introduced the mallet. The CU added the stake. The NGE drove it through the heart, decapitated the corpse, pissed on it, and buried it face down. The current dev team has dug the corpse up a few times, but only to steal the jewlrey it was buried with. Even then, they reomove the precious stones and replace them with glass. They don't even bother to use quality glass...
I remember when the Jedi system was first implemented, and it basically involved grinding nearly every profession to unlock your jedi slot. This totally trashed the game. No one cared about anything but grinding. The community events stopped because everyone was grinding.
The biggest thing that SWG held was a fantastic community based game. Everything was based on the player base and there were no instances. This allowed for very high interactivity. Also, houses were super cool, even before cities were released. People threw partties and made bands/damce troupes etc. This was the true cohesiveness of the game. Once everyone and their mother spent all their time grinding the 20 professions or w/e it killed the game.
umincredeagle--eclipse
Me and my brother use to play together. After the jedi grind, he dissapeared to grind for his jedi. The armorer I sold hides to (I was a ranger) dissapeared to grind for his jedi. I unsubscribed.
A couple of years ago I wanted to come back to the game, 1 week earlier the NGE was released so I didn't resubscribe. I came here to these forums to find out what was new about the game, good and bad, read about the NGE and said "no way Jose."
I could really go on with how the game was wrecked. * Longstanding, Unresolved Bugs / Issues: Stuff that NEVER has been fixed with the game. I also lump in the lack of updates / fixing / revamps of some professions that really, really needed it: Ranger, Squad Leader, Commando, etc. * Increasing disregard for Star Wars Canon / Lore: Jedi implementation is a major factor here, but I'll get into that later. When the last Prequels were being released, the devs made a HUGE push in promoting anything related to the Old Republic / Clone Wars. Example: It would have been fine to throw in gear from the older eras in. But to make them dominate the game was insane. The disregard for canon only grew as time progressed. The canon / lore of any IP is always important, IMO. That background, that theme... is what makes that property what it is, be it Star Wars, Middle Earth, Star Trek, Babylon 5, etc. * Jedi: In the early, early days of SWG, there wasn't really a problem with them. Developed ones were powerful, but they all had to worry about visibility, and of course, Permadeath. This kept the Jedi population humble, hidden, and... revered. There was a point in SWG's history where Jedi were held in awe. Seeing one in action was a game-stopping moment to behold. This compromise in gameplay with Star Wars lore was fitting. But things changed ever since Publish 9. Jedi no longer worried about Permadeath. They began to parade around in the open, in front of the Empire. You saw more and more of them. It got to a point where there were so many Jedi that they absolutely dominated the game, especially the GCW. If you were a "normal" character, you were a liability. There finally emerged a point where you could have more Jedi onscreen than Stormtroopers. You could have more Lightsabers swinging than blaster fire exchanges. Then there was the eventual Publish / Patching dedication towards Jedi. Jedi received tremendous attention from the devs Publish after Publish. All while many other Professions have not received a single pass for fixes. All this led to a point where Jedi were now *despised* Amazing how SOE did that, turning something from Star Wars that was widely revered into something hated. * Piss-Poor Actions by SOE: This is my catch-all for all the BS SOE did to its playerbase. Everything from implementing the CU and NGE, and the insults thrown at its own PAYING playerbase when they were up for interviews and such. When they developed the NGE, they KNEW alot of us would leave once they released it. They still went through it despite widespread protest by their paying customers. They were expecting us to leave so that we would be replaced by a rampaging horde of brand new players. Well, that hilariously didn't turn out the way SOE wanted. F**k SOE. "You go to hell... you go to hell and you DIE!"
I luv posts like this.
"It didnt match up to the lore".
Um was the game recognized as canon? I sure dont remember it being so. Perhaps I am wrong.
The main thing is that to the majority of SW fans, the Jedi is the symbol of the franchise.
So that means either everyone can be them...or no one can.
And not seeing it here...but in other posts you sometimes see "I deserved to have an alpha character"
You did...then why not everyone else?
Alpha classes dont work
Basing a game around the sims doesnt work.
Releasing a game not worthy of the SW name doesnt work.
Releasing a bunch of broken content doesnt work.
Allowing recursive macroing in a game doesnt work.
Heck there was a multitude of reasons why it didnt appeal to most. The most basic to me will always be...cause they didnt make EQ in space.
Limited number of professions, along with lots of content(and more easily produced new content) would done wonders.
Heck you could even of stayed with the skill tree set up(although my fav is lvls plus skill pts).
I dont agree with how the NGE was pulled, or even that a FPS was needed.
That said, SWG always suffered from Koster biting off more than he could chew. The 6 bazillion classes being a shining example. Housing being another drain on server resources.
If a game for any certain IP disregards the very themes of what makes that IP then what good is it? **A bunch of us joined SWG for the simple fact of this: It was Star Wars. We wanted to LIVE in the Star Wars universe, and for fans of the Original Trilogy like me, this was supposed to be a big deal.**
SWG eventually turned out like a 3 headed fish with a leg growing out the side of its head in the local lake. Weird as hell. You had Stormtroopers running around, yet platoons of Jedi gathering. You had more Lightsabers swinging than blaster fire being exchanged. It was supposed to be the era of Palpatine's Empire, yet Jedi were running around with no worries whatsoever.
For those of us that love the setting and theme of the Original Trilogy... this isn't Star Wars. You have Lightsabers. You have Jedi. You have the occasional Stormtrooper. Yet, how this was all implemented... was NOT Star Wars.
The game looked like it didn't know what it wanted to be.
Also, you're assuming the majority of Star Wars fans think Jedi = Star Wars.
I beg to differ, especially the SW fans who grew up on the Original Trilogy.
Largest indication: Take a look at all Star Wars merchandise that has ever been or is currently being sold. How much of it is Jedi? How much of it is composed of guys like Boba Fett, the numerous troopers? The vehicles / ships / starcraft of Star Wars? Take a look also at the guys who dress up in Star Wars costumes for various conventions. They're not mostly suited up as Jedi. The more dedicated, organized ones were "Trooper" types.
In Pre-NGE SWG, some of the best guilds I ran into were "Imperial Trooper" types. These guys were structured, uniforrmed, equipped, etc. to bring a great feel of a unit of Stormtroopers. Even better were the RP Trooper guilds. The same but they talked and acted like Troopers in-game. One of the things that scream Star Wars is a unit of Stormtroopers doing patrols through Mos Eisley and the dunes of Tatooine.
Also, I'm still a firm believer in the old professions for the Sandbox / Skillpoint / Template System. Freedom of gameplay was one of the major things that kept me playing this flawed game until the NGE. Limiting our choices with fewer professions means taking the very thing that allowed variety in the Templates.
Dont start the patronizing bs about "those of us around in 78 dont like Jedi" or whatever other BS ya wanna spew. Was 10 in 78....thank ye very much.
The precious sucked.
It wasnt a game...it was a sim.
Do we really need to re-hash this? Sure... some of the SW fan base appreciated it. Especially those that never played a MMO before.
But the rest of the SW fan base DWARFS the few that did enjoy the precious. Which is what just chaps so many arses around here. You folks dont consider a person a "fan" if their feelings on SWG dont agree with ya.
I am glad you wanted a sim...most MMO players dont. And if in your little world 250k accounts, held by 100 to 125k-ish folks, equates to the entire SW fanbase, then give me some of what you are smoking.
That must be some good chit. Better than the precious anyways.
You cant make a world sim...trying to juggle 4.37 Bajillion items...and expect it to turn out good. Let alone function properly for that matter.
Instead of Ralph building it...they should of went with a Dev team that would of aimed for an "entertaining game". And NO...that doesnt mean that standing in lines for ents/docs....or regrinding your template are considered "fun" to most.
The SWG crowd that are found in this forum are a niche fraction of the SW fanbase.
Would be cool if they could recognize it...then we wouldnt have the precious always being brought up.
Bottom line...the precious failed cause Ralph built it. Hopefully he builds another world sim with his own company. So this time when his "wonderfull" ideas crash and burn, it will be his finances taking the hit over it.
They should treat him like they do Brad....OK for getting ideas from...but dont let em have control. Train wreck waiting to happen.
ANd just in case you are still day-dreaming...it was all those professions you enjoyed so much that kept the game constantly being balanced. Rather than just being able to kick out new expansions if they had kept the game smaller scale.
4 or 5 EQ size expansions would of done wonders for lack of content in the game.
I've enjoyed Hickman's and Wies stories in the Dragonlance world (Dungeons and Dragons), but I won't buy a piece of crap game like D&D Online. Being a fan doesn't mean you are going to buy anything based on that theme, in fact those types of people are called "nerds" or "fanbois", and fanboyism is frowned upon.
Oh I wish someone would make a game based on the Deathgate Cycle universe. Oh yeah. And make it be a sandbox like old SWG was.
I like Dungeons and Dragons. I was really excited to hear about DDO. I joined their board before the game came out. The Devs said they wanted our feedback and I wanted to help them make the best game possible.
But after a few weeks, it became obvious that just like Sony, the Devs only wanted feedback that agreed with how they envisioned the game. Namely there was an argument over forced grouping.
I'm a casual player. I like games where I can go on and play no matter what. I don't have a lot of time and energy to sink in to finding a group. I know that this probably means that I won't get the best items in game - and that's fine.
But when me and people like me said this on the DDO boards, we were viciously flamed by the hardcore gamers that wanted forced grouping. It turned in to a nasty board war and after a short period, it was obvious the Devs favored the groupers.
The whole argument echoed of Sony and their various SWG changes and I didn't feel like going through that again. I've already been through the gut wrench of dealing with a company that didn't give a flying f**k about what I wanted as a player. I don't need this stress again.
After DDO was released, I knew people who played it and even sort of enjoyed it. But I got a steady stream of complaints about how a lot of the quests were almost impossible to complete because you need a Wizard (not just a sorcerer) of such and such alignment, with an intelligence of X and you need a Warrior (not a Paladin or a Ranger) with a strength of Y and an alignment of such and such. Having a group wasn't enough - you had to have the right kind of group. Thus a lot of my friends were getting bored/frustrated and quitting the game.
I'll never forget the ads for the first DDO expansion. What was the first thing they listed? New content? No. Being able to play a Drow? No. All the new quests and storylines? No. The first thing listed in the ad was "More Solo Content".
The a$$hole$ should have listened to us to begin with. Screw the solo content - the Turbine didn't listen to us, their potential customer base when it mattered. So it's just like Sony. If tomorrow they decide that this completely different way of playing would be better, they'd do it over the protests of their customer base. Turbine has already lost me. It's very unlikely they'll re-woo my interest.
It saddens me that something so easy as listening to your customer base is so wholley ignored by so many online companies. I think a LARGE part of the success of World of Warcraft is that Blizzard ACTUALLY CARES ABOUT THEIR PLAYERS AND WHAT THEIR PLAYERS THINK.
I didn't play WoW for very long, but I was stunned by how Blizzard treated me as a customer. It was like they actually wanted me playing their game. When I cancelled my account they not only wanted to know exactly what I didn't like, they offered to email me if they ever fixed the issues!!!
A little customer service goes so very, very far....
I like Dungeons and Dragons. I was really excited to hear about DDO. I joined their board before the game came out. The Devs said they wanted our feedback and I wanted to help them make the best game possible. But after a few weeks, it became obvious that just like Sony, the Devs only wanted feedback that agreed with how they envisioned the game. Namely there was an argument over forced grouping. I'm a casual player. I like games where I can go on and play no matter what. I don't have a lot of time and energy to sink in to finding a group. I know that this probably means that I won't get the best items in game - and that's fine. But when me and people like me said this on the DDO boards, we were viciously flamed by the hardcore gamers that wanted forced grouping. It turned in to a nasty board war and after a short period, it was obvious the Devs favored the groupers. The whole argument echoed of Sony and their various SWG changes and I didn't feel like going through that again. I've already been through the gut wrench of dealing with a company that didn't give a flying f**k about what I wanted as a player. I don't need this stress again. After DDO was released, I knew people who played it and even sort of enjoyed it. But I got a steady stream of complaints about how a lot of the quests were almost impossible to complete because you need a Wizard (not just a sorcerer) of such and such alignment, with an intelligence of X and you need a Warrior (not a Paladin or a Ranger) with a strength of Y and an alignment of such and such. Having a group wasn't enough - you had to have the right kind of group. Thus a lot of my friends were getting bored/frustrated and quitting the game. I'll never forget the ads for the first DDO expansion. What was the first thing they listed? New content? No. Being able to play a Drow? No. All the new quests and storylines? No. The first thing listed in the ad was "More Solo Content". The a$$hole$ should have listened to us to begin with. Screw the solo content - the Turbine didn't listen to us, their potential customer base when it mattered. So it's just like Sony. If tomorrow they decide that this completely different way of playing would be better, they'd do it over the protests of their customer base. Turbine has already lost me. It's very unlikely they'll re-woo my interest. It saddens me that something so easy as listening to your customer base is so wholley ignored by so many online companies. I think a LARGE part of the success of World of Warcraft is that Blizzard ACTUALLY CARES ABOUT THEIR PLAYERS AND WHAT THEIR PLAYERS THINK. I didn't play WoW for very long, but I was stunned by how Blizzard treated me as a customer. It was like they actually wanted me playing their game. When I cancelled my account they not only wanted to know exactly what I didn't like, they offered to email me if they ever fixed the issues!!! A little customer service goes so very, very far....
Beta testers jump from one game to another, probably the same group of dorks and nerds. It is probably why most of these games...
I haven't played all of those games. But of the ones I do have experience with, Eve was the most different of them all (followed by the original SWG and The Sims Online)....
But you're right - I am tired of the same crappy game in different packages...
Comments
Id love to say NGE and CU but I just cant find it my heart to do so the true wrecker of the game was Jedi once introduced everything revolved around them.
Fisher
You are putting words in my mouth bro, or I am not coming across with what I am trying to say very well.
Let me try to break it down into 2 areas...
I am saying he put too much variation into game for that day/age. I may not have a background with actual DBs, but I sure as hell wrote ascii/binary files as input/output for various programs I worked on. It doesnt take Rocket Science to realize that when you got 2 or 3k users on a server, all looking for unique data in a data-base, that it is going to be a bottle neck...vs those 2 or 3k folks searching for generic items.
Maybe...just maybe they could of gotten away with it utilizing todays technology. Back when they started in 98ish, he over-bit on what he could chew. Remember that in 93/94, a 486 with 2M RAM was considered a good machine. By 98 the standards had gone up, but nothing like todays standards.
I dont know how popular that type of sand box game will be when it is made correctly. I am sure depending on theme, it will do decent enough. WoW killer? I dont know I would make a claim of that...but who is to say?
I see NWN 1 and 2, and they have the mod sets to create content. I happen to like both games, but havent been one to download a bunch of the user stuff. SOme folks say it is pretty good material...well some of it at least.
SO perhaps I would be one to enjoy a proper sandbox. I cant say one way or another since I havent played one. The world sim stuff though I know I wouldnt enjoy. Being able to run cool dungeons/whatever created by others...yeah I could get into liking that stuff if done properly.
SWG wasnt a proper sandbox. The tools for all that great user content wasnt there. Let alone the fixed content that should of been there besides. I dont consider lair missions "good" fixed content.
Instead Koster ran around in circles during dev time trying to balance 45 bajillion items(classes/tradeskill stuff/etc etc).
Bugs/content/user created content never got the proper attention. Had he kept the tradeskill/class count down, he would of had time for other things. It was too much back then, and might still be till this very day. 32(?) classes is a ton to keep up with...let alone the rest of a game.
It shipped as a POS...and has remained as such.
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As far as the cost too much....yes I feel to make a game that not only is the sand box variety, but also offers the tons of pregenerated content ala EQ is too much even for today in terms of Dev time/costs. 2 different concepts here bro. Thus I seperated the ideas.
We have talked about the "ultimate" sandbox/PVE game before Fisher. Think the 2 ideas are kind of getting mixed up in this thread. We have both agreed if someone ever makes a game that covers both bases it should rule the MMO world...especially if it had a SW tag on it.
We wont see this game for 5 to 10 more yrs. Too much is involved.
You are seeing gaming companies using pre-generated engines from other companies to cut down dev time on games. I would have to think eventually sand box material will be offered in pre-generated form as well.
When that happens, then you will see the 2 types of gaming styles incorporated IMO. Just not before, as I have indicated prior, as it is too much to do.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I am on the trial right now. ( old pre CU vet)
I enjoy star wars in any form.
I am having fun.
I have grouped and it makes it very enjoyable.
It is not the game it was back then at all.
I would sub to this game if the rest of the game was what i have seen so far.
I hear that is it not
I will play this until War hits and decide if i want two subs or SWG gets the hack.
Playing: Nothing
Retired:Too many to list.
LA getting greedy and sticking their hand in the honey jar ruined the game.
People, including at least one former dev from SOE, have suggested that marketting types began suggesting radical changes to the game that would be sure to make the game a success. Many of these radical changes would copy WoW outright, others seemed to copy another successful game at the time, StarWars Battlefront.
So, instead of following through on their original vision, and implementing the bug fixes that players and devs worked on together, SOE tried to tap into WoW's audience via two rushed, bug-ridden, unwanted entire game revamps. The second revamp was arguably the worst, in that much of the players' progress up to that point was simply deleted, along with most of the game's professions.
Add to that the idea that the second revamp was a surprise, and that it invalidated much of a new expansion people just paid for two weeks earlier, and you have an MMO catastrophe.
Since all of that has happened, SOE has slowly added back some of the features that used to make the game enjoyable. They have also addressed some bugs and issues, but many still remain, and the playerbase has been put through a meat grinder.
Now there's talk of a new StarWars MMO coming out in a couple of years, and people wonder if SWG will survive.
So, I think a lot of the devs knew what needed to be done, but they weren't sitting in the big chair. In fact, some devs warned management that their strategy was going to cost them much of their current playerbase. A minority of the devs present were pitching some of the whacky ideas that ended up in the second, hated revamp, but many (probably most) were not. Some developers left SOE when they learned what was going on, and others asked for transfers to other projects.
So, what went wrong? In summary, everything I've seen suggests that with WoW's success, management hit the panic button and decided upon a poorly thought out "copy wow" strategy, instead of sticking with their original vision and making it a success. In so doing, they turned a game with some problems into a nightmare, alienated most of their players and damaged their reputation in the industry.
And this is one reason I am getting sick of MMORPGS. They are always sacrificing the original vision that got them the success they have. This doesn't just apply to SOE, even though they are the worse for doing this. WoW has ruined there own game by trying to add features of new games that are percieved threats. Seige weapons? Flying mounts? A pure focus on PVP? Yep, WoW is just a crumbling game now trying to be something it isn't. They should remember how they got their success, it was the original game design they put forth. Same goes for SOE and there games, EQ, SWG.
I wish a game company would stop trying to change the structure of a great game mid through with expansions. I can go back and play the great game of Baldur's Gate but I can not go back and play EQ because it is no longer the great game it was. You know what, Baldur's Gate still is there playable as the original vision intended it to be and it is still great. It is it's own game. MMORPGs do not go down in history gracefully they go down crumbling.
I disagree. I feel it can be done, could have been done, and should have been done. A simple sandbox with toys is hardly ultimate and it is completely do-able. All it takes is someone who doesn't try toi do so on the cheap, as Smedley and SONY do.
I see no support for what you are saying. The "it's too haaaaaaaaard" argument doesn't sell me.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Indeed... if people quit trying to accomplish things because "it's too hard," where would we be today?
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Watching the sunrise on mars as I polished my jet pack.
fishermage.blogspot.com
The Emu is legal so just play that, it's actually quite good now with lots of stuff missing but still combat and classes are all there and lots of items.
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Talking about SWG much?
I remember when the Jedi system was first implemented, and it basically involved grinding nearly every profession to unlock your jedi slot. This totally trashed the game. No one cared about anything but grinding. The community events stopped because everyone was grinding.
The biggest thing that SWG held was a fantastic community based game. Everything was based on the player base and there were no instances. This allowed for very high interactivity. Also, houses were super cool, even before cities were released. People threw partties and made bands/damce troupes etc. This was the true cohesiveness of the game. Once everyone and their mother spent all their time grinding the 20 professions or w/e it killed the game.
umincredeagle--eclipse
That didn't happen when the Jedi system was implemented. It happened when the developes and marketing got antsy because nobody was unlocking Jedi, and decided to to expalin how Jedi was unlocked, and then gave away holocrons to point everyone in that direction. The hologrind killed the game for almost everyone who wasn't interested in unlocking Jedi. Grouping died out, and many of the entertainers and doctors stoped playing the game in favor of grinding out professions.
The hologrind introduced the mallet. The CU added the stake. The NGE drove it through the heart, decapitated the corpse, pissed on it, and buried it face down. The current dev team has dug the corpse up a few times, but only to steal the jewlrey it was buried with. Even then, they reomove the precious stones and replace them with glass. They don't even bother to use quality glass...
Me and my brother use to play together. After the jedi grind, he dissapeared to grind for his jedi. The armorer I sold hides to (I was a ranger) dissapeared to grind for his jedi. I unsubscribed.
A couple of years ago I wanted to come back to the game, 1 week earlier the NGE was released so I didn't resubscribe. I came here to these forums to find out what was new about the game, good and bad, read about the NGE and said "no way Jose."
So say we all.
I luv posts like this.
"It didnt match up to the lore".
Um was the game recognized as canon? I sure dont remember it being so. Perhaps I am wrong.
The main thing is that to the majority of SW fans, the Jedi is the symbol of the franchise.
So that means either everyone can be them...or no one can.
And not seeing it here...but in other posts you sometimes see "I deserved to have an alpha character"
You did...then why not everyone else?
Alpha classes dont work
Basing a game around the sims doesnt work.
Releasing a game not worthy of the SW name doesnt work.
Releasing a bunch of broken content doesnt work.
Allowing recursive macroing in a game doesnt work.
Heck there was a multitude of reasons why it didnt appeal to most. The most basic to me will always be...cause they didnt make EQ in space.
Limited number of professions, along with lots of content(and more easily produced new content) would done wonders.
Heck you could even of stayed with the skill tree set up(although my fav is lvls plus skill pts).
I dont agree with how the NGE was pulled, or even that a FPS was needed.
That said, SWG always suffered from Koster biting off more than he could chew. The 6 bazillion classes being a shining example. Housing being another drain on server resources.
If a game for any certain IP disregards the very themes of what makes that IP then what good is it? **A bunch of us joined SWG for the simple fact of this: It was Star Wars. We wanted to LIVE in the Star Wars universe, and for fans of the Original Trilogy like me, this was supposed to be a big deal.**
SWG eventually turned out like a 3 headed fish with a leg growing out the side of its head in the local lake. Weird as hell. You had Stormtroopers running around, yet platoons of Jedi gathering. You had more Lightsabers swinging than blaster fire being exchanged. It was supposed to be the era of Palpatine's Empire, yet Jedi were running around with no worries whatsoever.
For those of us that love the setting and theme of the Original Trilogy... this isn't Star Wars. You have Lightsabers. You have Jedi. You have the occasional Stormtrooper. Yet, how this was all implemented... was NOT Star Wars.
The game looked like it didn't know what it wanted to be.
Also, you're assuming the majority of Star Wars fans think Jedi = Star Wars.
I beg to differ, especially the SW fans who grew up on the Original Trilogy.
Largest indication: Take a look at all Star Wars merchandise that has ever been or is currently being sold. How much of it is Jedi? How much of it is composed of guys like Boba Fett, the numerous troopers? The vehicles / ships / starcraft of Star Wars? Take a look also at the guys who dress up in Star Wars costumes for various conventions. They're not mostly suited up as Jedi. The more dedicated, organized ones were "Trooper" types.
In Pre-NGE SWG, some of the best guilds I ran into were "Imperial Trooper" types. These guys were structured, uniforrmed, equipped, etc. to bring a great feel of a unit of Stormtroopers. Even better were the RP Trooper guilds. The same but they talked and acted like Troopers in-game. One of the things that scream Star Wars is a unit of Stormtroopers doing patrols through Mos Eisley and the dunes of Tatooine.
Also, I'm still a firm believer in the old professions for the Sandbox / Skillpoint / Template System. Freedom of gameplay was one of the major things that kept me playing this flawed game until the NGE. Limiting our choices with fewer professions means taking the very thing that allowed variety in the Templates.
Dont start the patronizing bs about "those of us around in 78 dont like Jedi" or whatever other BS ya wanna spew. Was 10 in 78....thank ye very much.
The precious sucked.
It wasnt a game...it was a sim.
Do we really need to re-hash this? Sure... some of the SW fan base appreciated it. Especially those that never played a MMO before.
But the rest of the SW fan base DWARFS the few that did enjoy the precious. Which is what just chaps so many arses around here. You folks dont consider a person a "fan" if their feelings on SWG dont agree with ya.
I am glad you wanted a sim...most MMO players dont. And if in your little world 250k accounts, held by 100 to 125k-ish folks, equates to the entire SW fanbase, then give me some of what you are smoking.
That must be some good chit. Better than the precious anyways.
You cant make a world sim...trying to juggle 4.37 Bajillion items...and expect it to turn out good. Let alone function properly for that matter.
Instead of Ralph building it...they should of went with a Dev team that would of aimed for an "entertaining game". And NO...that doesnt mean that standing in lines for ents/docs....or regrinding your template are considered "fun" to most.
The SWG crowd that are found in this forum are a niche fraction of the SW fanbase.
Would be cool if they could recognize it...then we wouldnt have the precious always being brought up.
Bottom line...the precious failed cause Ralph built it. Hopefully he builds another world sim with his own company. So this time when his "wonderfull" ideas crash and burn, it will be his finances taking the hit over it.
They should treat him like they do Brad....OK for getting ideas from...but dont let em have control. Train wreck waiting to happen.
ANd just in case you are still day-dreaming...it was all those professions you enjoyed so much that kept the game constantly being balanced. Rather than just being able to kick out new expansions if they had kept the game smaller scale.
4 or 5 EQ size expansions would of done wonders for lack of content in the game.
I've enjoyed Hickman's and Wies stories in the Dragonlance world (Dungeons and Dragons), but I won't buy a piece of crap game like D&D Online. Being a fan doesn't mean you are going to buy anything based on that theme, in fact those types of people are called "nerds" or "fanbois", and fanboyism is frowned upon.
Oh I wish someone would make a game based on the Deathgate Cycle universe. Oh yeah. And make it be a sandbox like old SWG was.
I like Dungeons and Dragons. I was really excited to hear about DDO. I joined their board before the game came out. The Devs said they wanted our feedback and I wanted to help them make the best game possible.
But after a few weeks, it became obvious that just like Sony, the Devs only wanted feedback that agreed with how they envisioned the game. Namely there was an argument over forced grouping.
I'm a casual player. I like games where I can go on and play no matter what. I don't have a lot of time and energy to sink in to finding a group. I know that this probably means that I won't get the best items in game - and that's fine.
But when me and people like me said this on the DDO boards, we were viciously flamed by the hardcore gamers that wanted forced grouping. It turned in to a nasty board war and after a short period, it was obvious the Devs favored the groupers.
The whole argument echoed of Sony and their various SWG changes and I didn't feel like going through that again. I've already been through the gut wrench of dealing with a company that didn't give a flying f**k about what I wanted as a player. I don't need this stress again.
After DDO was released, I knew people who played it and even sort of enjoyed it. But I got a steady stream of complaints about how a lot of the quests were almost impossible to complete because you need a Wizard (not just a sorcerer) of such and such alignment, with an intelligence of X and you need a Warrior (not a Paladin or a Ranger) with a strength of Y and an alignment of such and such. Having a group wasn't enough - you had to have the right kind of group. Thus a lot of my friends were getting bored/frustrated and quitting the game.
I'll never forget the ads for the first DDO expansion. What was the first thing they listed? New content? No. Being able to play a Drow? No. All the new quests and storylines? No. The first thing listed in the ad was "More Solo Content".
The a$$hole$ should have listened to us to begin with. Screw the solo content - the Turbine didn't listen to us, their potential customer base when it mattered. So it's just like Sony. If tomorrow they decide that this completely different way of playing would be better, they'd do it over the protests of their customer base. Turbine has already lost me. It's very unlikely they'll re-woo my interest.
It saddens me that something so easy as listening to your customer base is so wholley ignored by so many online companies. I think a LARGE part of the success of World of Warcraft is that Blizzard ACTUALLY CARES ABOUT THEIR PLAYERS AND WHAT THEIR PLAYERS THINK.
I didn't play WoW for very long, but I was stunned by how Blizzard treated me as a customer. It was like they actually wanted me playing their game. When I cancelled my account they not only wanted to know exactly what I didn't like, they offered to email me if they ever fixed the issues!!!
A little customer service goes so very, very far....
Beta testers jump from one game to another, probably the same group of dorks and nerds. It is probably why most of these games...
Anarchy Online ArchLord Asheron's Call City of Heroes City of Villains D&D Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark and Light EVE Online Everquest Everquest II Face of Mankind Final Fantasy XI Guild Wars Hellgate: London Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Knight Online Lineage II Lord of the Rings Online MapleStory The Matrix Online Phantasy Star Universe Pirates of the Burning Sea Planetside RF Online Ragnarok Online Roma Victor The Saga of Ryzom Second Life Shadowbane Silkroad Online Star Wars Galaxies Tabula Rasa Ultima Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes World War II Online World of Warcraft
Aion Champions Online The Chronicles of Spellborn Darkfall Earthrise Fallen Earth Huxley Jumpgate Evolution SUN Star Trek Online Stargate Worlds WAR (Warhammer Online)
...are exactly the same except for skins and lore.
I haven't played all of those games. But of the ones I do have experience with, Eve was the most different of them all (followed by the original SWG and The Sims Online)....
But you're right - I am tired of the same crappy game in different packages...