Originally posted by efefia Originally posted by Fishermage
It could have been done, over the past few years, had the DEVs practiced the fine old art of repentance, and actually changed their ways. Had they practiced the art of honesty, and showed players that they valued them as customers and cared about their past efforts, and didn't keep changing the whole game on people every few months, and didn't coninually nerf gameplay in an attempt to solve perceived problems, they WOULD have built up population. Now, it's way too late for that. They have proven time and again they have learned nothing from the debacle of the NGE. I doubt they even want to admit or realzie what they did that was wrong. Pity, They had a chance to turn this around and they blew it.
The problem SOE have always had is their retention rate on the dev team, the original beta devs were let go too easily, the pre-cu devs all packed up and shipped out and it's a cycle that hasn't really relented all the way through the games existence. The devs that have worked on the game throughout it's lifespan probably have learned a lesson or two, the problem is they don't stick around long enough to put those lessons into practice and before you know it, you've got a fresh dev team that have to learn the same lessons over again, making the same mistakes as the last lot. Blix is probably one of the longest serving members left and he was little more than a bit part player in the CU as I recall. Also factor in the scaling down of the dev team over time and you've got a nice mix for continued fuck ups. Natural attrition of staff is something all companies have to face but it seems worse at SOE and they compound the problem by shifting people to other projects as well. Fine example of that is Pex, that guy was much loved by the SWG community both past and present and they move him to their new freebie kiddie focused mmo, mismanagement par excellence.
Good point. Also I feel that SWG is their "training room" for new DEVs. The NGE clicky combat system was little more than a test bed for their new game, one that they actually care about, the Agency. I imagine we shall see many of the features brought out during the NGE period incorporated into the Agency and DC Online.
Although of course, since they actually care about those games and want them to succeed rather than be loss leaders, those features will work well in those new games.
Players on many servers have been reporting a significant increase in new and returning players with the last few chapters and updates drawing in more and more people.
I play on high, medium and low population servers and have seen this myself, hopefully this is a trend that will continue.
It would seem that Obraik doesn't have anything to worry about.
And your just coming off yet another free month for everyone that ever had an account with SWG. Didn't that happen after another CHANGE you wanted, the Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade? How'd that work out for you? As I remember, just before C7, the population dropped to a new all time low.
It seems every time they CHANGE the game in a drastic fashion, they have to give free trials to have the paying players see any1 else in game. This time, it was GU-whatever that supplied the MASSIVE CHANGE, they lost subs again, and again, they had another free trial. This will be exactly the same as all the others. After the free trials clear out, you'll be left with even less on the servers. You think it's so great? Go back to Kauri and tell them how it's so great. Just why then is there still all the "we want server merges" threads?
But, you can use your new "grouping" system to find no1 on the game now.
It could have been done, over the past few years, had the DEVs practiced the fine old art of repentance, and actually changed their ways. Had they practiced the art of honesty, and showed players that they valued them as customers and cared about their past efforts, and didn't keep changing the whole game on people every few months, and didn't coninually nerf gameplay in an attempt to solve perceived problems, they WOULD have built up population. Now, it's way too late for that. They have proven time and again they have learned nothing from the debacle of the NGE. I doubt they even want to admit or realzie what they did that was wrong. Pity, They had a chance to turn this around and they blew it.
The problem SOE have always had is their retention rate on the dev team, the original beta devs were let go too easily, the pre-cu devs all packed up and shipped out and it's a cycle that hasn't really relented all the way through the games existence. The devs that have worked on the game throughout it's lifespan probably have learned a lesson or two, the problem is they don't stick around long enough to put those lessons into practice and before you know it, you've got a fresh dev team that have to learn the same lessons over again, making the same mistakes as the last lot. Blix is probably one of the longest serving members left and he was little more than a bit part player in the CU as I recall. Also factor in the scaling down of the dev team over time and you've got a nice mix for continued fuck ups. Natural attrition of staff is something all companies have to face but it seems worse at SOE and they compound the problem by shifting people to other projects as well. Fine example of that is Pex, that guy was much loved by the SWG community both past and present and they move him to their new freebie kiddie focused mmo, mismanagement par excellence.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Originally posted by Esquire1980 Originally posted by efefia Originally posted by Fishermage
It could have been done, over the past few years, had the DEVs practiced the fine old art of repentance, and actually changed their ways. Had they practiced the art of honesty, and showed players that they valued them as customers and cared about their past efforts, and didn't keep changing the whole game on people every few months, and didn't coninually nerf gameplay in an attempt to solve perceived problems, they WOULD have built up population. Now, it's way too late for that. They have proven time and again they have learned nothing from the debacle of the NGE. I doubt they even want to admit or realzie what they did that was wrong. Pity, They had a chance to turn this around and they blew it.
The problem SOE have always had is their retention rate on the dev team, the original beta devs were let go too easily, the pre-cu devs all packed up and shipped out and it's a cycle that hasn't really relented all the way through the games existence. The devs that have worked on the game throughout it's lifespan probably have learned a lesson or two, the problem is they don't stick around long enough to put those lessons into practice and before you know it, you've got a fresh dev team that have to learn the same lessons over again, making the same mistakes as the last lot. Blix is probably one of the longest serving members left and he was little more than a bit part player in the CU as I recall. Also factor in the scaling down of the dev team over time and you've got a nice mix for continued fuck ups. Natural attrition of staff is something all companies have to face but it seems worse at SOE and they compound the problem by shifting people to other projects as well. Fine example of that is Pex, that guy was much loved by the SWG community both past and present and they move him to their new freebie kiddie focused mmo, mismanagement par excellence.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Originally posted by Fishermage Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
As Blix calls it "Mudflation", rendering past achievements as useless or meaningless, thinking the players will just scrap their previous valuables and work towards the next thing Blix and the devs introduce, what they're missing is that people actually like to keep their valuables with some value and point of achievements as "look, I made it this far and I got it" type thing. Taking away a previously achieved goal and turning it into junk or accessable to a 1 day old player is just plain stupid and definitely causes a downfall in population just as it did. Not just Jedi going from unlockable slot to starting profession but turning something like the anti-decay kit into a prof restart kit (nobody dares uses that), turning Krayt/Ackley weapons into worse than newly crafted ones, turning tamed CH pets into stuffed pets, etc.
That's one reason why SOE made the biggest mistake and now they're struggling to recover from that, regarldess of what the fanbois are saying, it's far too little far too late, it isn't getting better enough.
Originally posted by sookster54 Originally posted by Fishermage Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
As Blix calls it "Mudflation", rendering past achievements as useless or meaningless, thinking the players will just scrap their previous valuables and work towards the next thing Blix and the devs introduce, what they're missing is that people actually like to keep their valuables with some value and point of achievements as "look, I made it this far and I got it" type thing. Taking away a previously achieved goal and turning it into junk or accessable to a 1 day old player is just plain stupid and definitely causes a downfall in population just as it did. Not just Jedi going from unlockable slot to starting profession but turning something like the anti-decay kit into a prof restart kit (nobody dares uses that), turning Krayt/Ackley weapons into worse than newly crafted ones, turning tamed CH pets into stuffed pets, etc.
That's one reason why SOE made the biggest mistake and now they're struggling to recover from that, regarldess of what the fanbois are saying, it's far too little far too late, it isn't getting better enough.
the issue starts with ethics. If you actually care about your players as human beings, you would never even dream of doing such a thing. When you don't give a damn about anyone, it's easy.
It could have been done, over the past few years, had the DEVs practiced the fine old art of repentance, and actually changed their ways. Had they practiced the art of honesty, and showed players that they valued them as customers and cared about their past efforts, and didn't keep changing the whole game on people every few months, and didn't coninually nerf gameplay in an attempt to solve perceived problems, they WOULD have built up population.
Now, it's way too late for that. They have proven time and again they have learned nothing from the debacle of the NGE. I doubt they even want to admit or realzie what they did that was wrong. Pity, They had a chance to turn this around and they blew it.
The problem SOE have always had is their retention rate on the dev team, the original beta devs were let go too easily, the pre-cu devs all packed up and shipped out and it's a cycle that hasn't really relented all the way through the games existence. The devs that have worked on the game throughout it's lifespan probably have learned a lesson or two, the problem is they don't stick around long enough to put those lessons into practice and before you know it, you've got a fresh dev team that have to learn the same lessons over again, making the same mistakes as the last lot. Blix is probably one of the longest serving members left and he was little more than a bit part player in the CU as I recall. Also factor in the scaling down of the dev team over time and you've got a nice mix for continued fuck ups. Natural attrition of staff is something all companies have to face but it seems worse at SOE and they compound the problem by shifting people to other projects as well. Fine example of that is Pex, that guy was much loved by the SWG community both past and present and they move him to their new freebie kiddie focused mmo, mismanagement par excellence.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I think Ledaye summed it up best. He stated on a "stratics" chat I had with him;
"I agree that a product that radically changes after launch was badly designed or managed by people who tend to panic."
So with that line of thought, the C6CD was designed badly being they had to go back and throw in diminshing returns to attributes. Blix admitting C6CD was bad design? And we all know SOE Austin is in panic mode about 90% of the time.
Originally posted by Esquire1980 Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by Esquire1980
Originally posted by efefia
Originally posted by Fishermage
It could have been done, over the past few years, had the DEVs practiced the fine old art of repentance, and actually changed their ways. Had they practiced the art of honesty, and showed players that they valued them as customers and cared about their past efforts, and didn't keep changing the whole game on people every few months, and didn't coninually nerf gameplay in an attempt to solve perceived problems, they WOULD have built up population. Now, it's way too late for that. They have proven time and again they have learned nothing from the debacle of the NGE. I doubt they even want to admit or realzie what they did that was wrong. Pity, They had a chance to turn this around and they blew it.
The problem SOE have always had is their retention rate on the dev team, the original beta devs were let go too easily, the pre-cu devs all packed up and shipped out and it's a cycle that hasn't really relented all the way through the games existence. The devs that have worked on the game throughout it's lifespan probably have learned a lesson or two, the problem is they don't stick around long enough to put those lessons into practice and before you know it, you've got a fresh dev team that have to learn the same lessons over again, making the same mistakes as the last lot. Blix is probably one of the longest serving members left and he was little more than a bit part player in the CU as I recall. Also factor in the scaling down of the dev team over time and you've got a nice mix for continued fuck ups. Natural attrition of staff is something all companies have to face but it seems worse at SOE and they compound the problem by shifting people to other projects as well. Fine example of that is Pex, that guy was much loved by the SWG community both past and present and they move him to their new freebie kiddie focused mmo, mismanagement par excellence.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset. Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I think Ledaye summed it up best. He stated on a "stratics" chat I had with him; "I agree that a product that radically changes after launch was badly designed or managed by people who tend to panic."
So with that line of thought, the C6CD was designed badly being they had to go back and throw in diminshing returns to attributes. Blix admitting C6CD was bad design? And we all know SOE Austin is in panic mode about 90% of the time.
They never admit to bad design, until they can blame it on the last guy before them. When Blix gets replaced, that guy will blame design; just as they did to Raph Koster after the fact. They NEVER suck it up and actually assume responsibility. Smedley taught them well.
It could have been done, over the past few years, had the DEVs practiced the fine old art of repentance, and actually changed their ways. Had they practiced the art of honesty, and showed players that they valued them as customers and cared about their past efforts, and didn't keep changing the whole game on people every few months, and didn't coninually nerf gameplay in an attempt to solve perceived problems, they WOULD have built up population.
Now, it's way too late for that. They have proven time and again they have learned nothing from the debacle of the NGE. I doubt they even want to admit or realzie what they did that was wrong. Pity, They had a chance to turn this around and they blew it.
The problem SOE have always had is their retention rate on the dev team, the original beta devs were let go too easily, the pre-cu devs all packed up and shipped out and it's a cycle that hasn't really relented all the way through the games existence. The devs that have worked on the game throughout it's lifespan probably have learned a lesson or two, the problem is they don't stick around long enough to put those lessons into practice and before you know it, you've got a fresh dev team that have to learn the same lessons over again, making the same mistakes as the last lot. Blix is probably one of the longest serving members left and he was little more than a bit part player in the CU as I recall. Also factor in the scaling down of the dev team over time and you've got a nice mix for continued fuck ups. Natural attrition of staff is something all companies have to face but it seems worse at SOE and they compound the problem by shifting people to other projects as well. Fine example of that is Pex, that guy was much loved by the SWG community both past and present and they move him to their new freebie kiddie focused mmo, mismanagement par excellence.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I think Ledaye summed it up best. He stated on a "stratics" chat I had with him;
"I agree that a product that radically changes after launch was badly designed or managed by people who tend to panic."
So with that line of thought, the C6CD was designed badly being they had to go back and throw in diminshing returns to attributes. Blix admitting C6CD was bad design? And we all know SOE Austin is in panic mode about 90% of the time.
They never admit to bad design, until they can blame it on the last guy before them. When Blix gets replaced, that guy will blame design; just as they did to Raph Koster after the fact. They NEVER suck it up and actually assume responsibility. Smedley taught them well.
ROFL I might even renew my sub if Blix was fired. The only thing he should be saying on his next bout of employment is "Would you like frys with that"?
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Originally posted by Esquire1980 Originally posted by Suvroc Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by Esquire1980
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Yeah, he also said as much during the NJE robe fiasco. Lost a few over that one as well, even though that wasn't all that bad. That's the problem with creating a bad rep for yourself. Even your minor errors become major ones. Things that would normally be forgiven damn you further.
They still believe it was COMMUNICATION that was the problem with the NGE. They are clueless as to what they actually did that was wrong. This is what happens when you simply don't give a damn about people, and act as if that were normal. Sooner or later such a mindset catches up with you.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Yeah, he also said as much during the NJE robe fiasco. Lost a few over that one as well, even though that wasn't all that bad. That's the problem with creating a bad rep for yourself. Even your minor errors become major ones. Things that would normally be forgiven damn you further.
They still believe it was COMMUNICATION that was the problem with the NGE. They are clueless as to what they actually did that was wrong. This is what happens when you simply don't give a damn about people, and act as if that were normal. Sooner or later such a mindset catches up with you.
/agree
It's now really easy to see the development plan that DM and blix put on the table before C6CD. They again, planned on NGEing the game, they just did it in increments this time.
They knew what the next patch was, in fact several patched ahead of themselves, didn't budge off the "plan". So all NGE taught them was not do it all at once.
Still, they got the same effect off of their year of CHANGES as NGE did with it's "one patch CHANGE. I'll bet time all the lost subs are counted, the percentages of playerbase lost are about the same as it was with NGE.
Players on many servers have been reporting a significant increase in new and returning players with the last few chapters and updates drawing in more and more people.
I play on high, medium and low population servers and have seen this myself, hopefully this is a trend that will continue.
It would seem that Obraik doesn't have anything to worry about.
Hey all, On server transfers, I think that free transfers will just cause more problems for servers with low population as there will always be people that don't want to move, that means full mergers would be needed as in the case of the Japanese Server mergers and that really didn't go very well, very few Japanese players took the option to transfer, they just stopped playing. We've got DevH working on what I assume is some form of Cross-Server instancing and improvments to the paid character transfer service to support more items so that should help with this issue.
I don't think I ever alluded to the fact that I thought the enhanced player search tool would completely solve this issue, I initially pushed for it to encourage grouping for experience gain, I have heard from players that have found it very useful and have used it myself on low population servers to set up full groups for experience gain and to find guilds to join, so it can be useful in that regard. The fight against unattended play continues, we've got some fixes coming up to discourage AFKing and I've been spreading the word on some Simple solutions for unattended macroing.
For Suvroc, I was appointed as the Pistoleer Correspondent in the Combat Upgrade and spent three years as an SWG community leader, I was very happy to be replaced as Game Play Senator by MasterCosmo who will be excellent for the job. I asked Valara, the Community manager, to return me to normal player status, I was made a Blue Glowie after they removed my Pistoleer profession with the NGE and it has bad memories associated with that forum title. I still continue to push for better Game Play in SWG but without the ties to the Senate I can speak more freely which is very useful. Over the years I've built up a lot of influence and communication links that I can use to help players get their bugs and issues resolved and I'll still be using them. Smuggler does indeed rock now, credit there goes to the Smuggler Community and Hanse for hooking up some cool new abilities, most of what I did for Smuggler was earlier on, after the NGE when it was a really broken profession. Sookster54, Smuggler excels in bypassing defensive combat rolls like block by using skills such as Off the Cuff, False Hope and Pistol Whip which all give the target zero chance of rolling anything defensive. And to ArcAngel3, Smuggler is the profession that requires the most timing and tactics of all professions in SWG, it's a lot of fun to play. Hope that addresses some of your questions, let me know if there is anything I can help with.
Heya Badger. I always like when you pop in here. Our viewpoints diverged after the NGE on some key areas I think, but one thing I always appreciated were your bug threads. Man you really put the serious issues out on the board for all to see. I acknowledge and appreciate the effort there.
As for your lfg tool, for the most part those are a standard feature in MMOs, and certainly not a bad thing. What's a shame though is that Smed specifically promised server mergers at a face to face summit with players, and then went back on his word...again. The lfg tool was then held up as one way SOE intended to address the population issues. So, once again you have SOE saying one thing, and doing another. The "other" in this case just happens to be the lfg tool that you were advocating. I think it's this context that draws the most criticism, and I think that's understandable.
Tbh, if Smed learned to stop saying one thing and doing another, there would be a lot less frustrated gamers out there, and a lot less criticism of SOE and SWG.
Also regarding the Japanese servers. I don't think you can gain a lot of generalizable information from that scenario. Remember that was NGE time. It wasn't just the Japanese playerbase that was quitting. It was most of us. The game was an absolute wreck. If SOE thinks that this example is a representative sample of what server mergers/transfers are likely to look like, they still need to hire someone who has a clue about social/market research. This has been a huge skill deficit area for them as an organization in my view.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Yeah, he also said as much during the NJE robe fiasco. Lost a few over that one as well, even though that wasn't all that bad. That's the problem with creating a bad rep for yourself. Even your minor errors become major ones. Things that would normally be forgiven damn you further.
They still believe it was COMMUNICATION that was the problem with the NGE. They are clueless as to what they actually did that was wrong. This is what happens when you simply don't give a damn about people, and act as if that were normal. Sooner or later such a mindset catches up with you.
I'm inclined to agree that there are some deep-rooted philosophical issues at work in SOE. Even Freeman said 99% of the MMO companies would never even think of doing an NGE, BEFORE it was such a failure. AFTER, he said it would now be 100%. What does that say about SOE's ethics if they're the 1% that would do it?
Remember, after it bombed, the official (and later personal) response was that they were proud to work for a company that was willing to take risks. That's some scary thinking right there.
Risks in technical innovation are one thing, but they were talking about ethical risks. They were talking about literally wiping out all that their players had built together over the past two years. They were also talking about marketting revamps for professions that they would then go ahead and delete INSTEAD of revamping. And, they were talking about marketting and implementing an expansion that they would then gut 14 days after it went live. Those are not the "kind" of risks one should be proud of--at all, ever.
Their willingness to do these things to people, and then their boasting about it after they saw the negative impact it had, is frankly shocking to me, still.
Not surprisingly I completely disagree with the notion that MMOs need to change their business model. It's not the model that is the problem (points to WoW). It's the philosophy at SOE that needs to change, badly. If it doesn't, I think they'll find themselves capable of alienating their customers no matter what model they choose.
It's an unfortunate and very disturbing reality though, that people with this ethical blindness are generally the last ones to ever see it in themselves. I'm sure some people at SOE still think that the NGE was a courageous act and something they should take pride in--frightening and sad really. As long as they think this, they're capable--even likely--to do something similar again.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by Esquire1980
Originally posted by Suvroc
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by Esquire1980
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Yeah, he also said as much during the NJE robe fiasco. Lost a few over that one as well, even though that wasn't all that bad. That's the problem with creating a bad rep for yourself. Even your minor errors become major ones. Things that would normally be forgiven damn you further. They still believe it was COMMUNICATION that was the problem with the NGE. They are clueless as to what they actually did that was wrong. This is what happens when you simply don't give a damn about people, and act as if that were normal. Sooner or later such a mindset catches up with you.
I'm inclined to agree that there are some deep-rooted philosophical issues at work in SOE. Even Freeman said 99% of the MMO companies would never even think of doing an NGE, BEFORE it was such a failure. AFTER, he said it would now be 100%. What does that say about SOE's ethics if they're the 1% that would do it? Remember, after it bombed, the official (and later personal) response was that they were proud to work for a company that was willing to take risks. That's some scary thinking right there. Risks in technical innovation are one thing, but they were talking about ethical risks. They were talking about literally wiping out all that their players had built together over the past two years. They were also talking about marketting revamps for professions that they would then go ahead and delete INSTEAD of revamping. And, they were talking about marketting and implementing an expansion that they would then gut 14 days after it went live. Those are not the "kind" of risks one should be proud of--at all, ever. Their willingness to do these things to people, and then their boasting about it after they saw the negative impact it had, is frankly shocking to me, still. Not surprisingly I completely disagree with the notion that MMOs need to change their business model. It's not the model that is the problem (points to WoW). It's the philosophy at SOE that needs to change, badly. If it doesn't, I think they'll find themselves capable of alienating their customers no matter what model they choose. It's an unfortunate and very disturbing reality though, that people with this ethical blindness are generally the last ones to ever see it in themselves. I'm sure some people at SOE still think that the NGE was a courageous act and something they should take pride in--frightening and sad really. As long as they think this, they're capable--even likely--to do something similar again.
yeah Brenlo, their director of communications, said it was a "bold move" and that "honestly, I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different."
What a reprehensible position. He is also ADAMANT about the failure was due to failed communication. These folks are truly defective when it comes to understanding the basics of business ethics.
I ams till amazed that a person who calls himself a human being can even think like that. I can understand crazy philosophical doctrines and how they can influence people to do abominable things, I can understand how religious outlooks can turn nice, normal people into zealous crazies, but THIS, such total vacancy when it comes to caring about human beings -- this I find completely alien.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Yeah, he also said as much during the NJE robe fiasco. Lost a few over that one as well, even though that wasn't all that bad. That's the problem with creating a bad rep for yourself. Even your minor errors become major ones. Things that would normally be forgiven damn you further.
They still believe it was COMMUNICATION that was the problem with the NGE. They are clueless as to what they actually did that was wrong. This is what happens when you simply don't give a damn about people, and act as if that were normal. Sooner or later such a mindset catches up with you.
I'm inclined to agree that there are some deep-rooted philosophical issues at work in SOE. Even Freeman said 99% of the MMO companies would never even think of doing an NGE, BEFORE it was such a failure. AFTER, he said it would now be 100%. What does that say about SOE's ethics if they're the 1% that would do it?
Remember, after it bombed, the official (and later personal) response was that they were proud to work for a company that was willing to take risks. That's some scary thinking right there.
Risks in technical innovation are one thing, but they were talking about ethical risks. They were talking about literally wiping out all that their players had built together over the past two years. They were also talking about marketting revamps for professions that they would then go ahead and delete INSTEAD of revamping. And, they were talking about marketting and implementing an expansion that they would then gut 14 days after it went live. Those are not the "kind" of risks one should be proud of--at all, ever.
Their willingness to do these things to people, and then their boasting about it after they saw the negative impact it had, is frankly shocking to me, still.
Not surprisingly I completely disagree with the notion that MMOs need to change their business model. It's not the model that is the problem (points to WoW). It's the philosophy at SOE that needs to change, badly. If it doesn't, I think they'll find themselves capable of alienating their customers no matter what model they choose.
It's an unfortunate and very disturbing reality though, that people with this ethical blindness are generally the last ones to ever see it in themselves. I'm sure some people at SOE still think that the NGE was a courageous act and something they should take pride in--frightening and sad really. As long as they think this, they're capable--even likely--to do something similar again.
yeah Brenlo, their director of communications, said it was a "bold move" and that "honestly, I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different."
What a reprehensible position. He is also ADAMANT about the failure was due to failed communication. These folks are truly defective when it comes to understanding the basics of business ethics.
I ams till amazed that a person who calls himself a human being can even think like that. I can understand crazy philosophical doctrines and how they can influence people to do abominable things, I can understand how religious outlooks can turn nice, normal people into zealous crazies, but THIS, such total vacancy when it comes to caring about human beings -- this I find completely alien.
Yes, and Rubenfield was still saying how proud he was of their boldness just a couple of months ago, while calling players whackjobs and telling them to go eat d*ck. Lead designer on the NGE if I remember right--not surprising.
I'm speculating here, but I think it has something to do with losing sight of the customers, ceasing to actually value them as people. It seems that customers just become a sliver on a pie graph that shows your dimishing market share. Then the customer becomes a means to an end. Some faceless entity that you need to hook somehow in order to increase your profit margin. After that, when this approach inevitably backfires, the customer becomes the scapegoat for your failure as you seek to protect your self-image, your reputation and your job.
One upon a time, providing something meaningful or beneficial to other valuable human beings was the goal. If you were good at this, you would be well compensated financially, and you could rightfully be pleased with your accomplishments. SOE leadership truly seems to have lost this vision.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
I'm actually more inclined to stick up for the dev team responsible for Ch.6, what they had prior to Ch.6 was essentially a single player game, every bit of "content" was soloable, even high end stuff like the vette and DWB. They had half a game and no way to add any further content that could be balanced so that it could present any sort of challenge. So then in their own way they tried to implemented the good old holy trinity class mechanism, while deplorable and something of another NGE at the time for people playing the game, it also meant that they could more easily add content that would be somewhat of a challenge. It's an oft overlooked fact that by making that change it enabled them to add the content that they have since, if Ch.6 had never happened the heroics would likely have never made it into the game and even if they had they wouldn't have offered any kind of a challenge if every class could tank, dps and heal.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
Players on many servers have been reporting a significant increase in new and returning players with the last few chapters and updates drawing in more and more people.
I play on high, medium and low population servers and have seen this myself, hopefully this is a trend that will continue.
It would seem that Obraik doesn't have anything to worry about.
And we have your word on that?
Pull your head out of SOE's colon.
The game is worse now that it was at launch. It has been 5 years and where is the progress?
I'm inclined to agree that there are some deep-rooted philosophical issues at work in SOE. Even Freeman said 99% of the MMO companies would never even think of doing an NGE, BEFORE it was such a failure. AFTER, he said it would now be 100%. What does that say about SOE's ethics if they're the 1% that would do it?
Remember, after it bombed, the official (and later personal) response was that they were proud to work for a company that was willing to take risks. That's some scary thinking right there.
Risks in technical innovation are one thing, but they were talking about ethical risks. They were talking about literally wiping out all that their players had built together over the past two years. They were also talking about marketting revamps for professions that they would then go ahead and delete INSTEAD of revamping. And, they were talking about marketting and implementing an expansion that they would then gut 14 days after it went live. Those are not the "kind" of risks one should be proud of--at all, ever.
Their willingness to do these things to people, and then their boasting about it after they saw the negative impact it had, is frankly shocking to me, still.
Not surprisingly I completely disagree with the notion that MMOs need to change their business model. It's not the model that is the problem (points to WoW). It's the philosophy at SOE that needs to change, badly. If it doesn't, I think they'll find themselves capable of alienating their customers no matter what model they choose.
It's an unfortunate and very disturbing reality though, that people with this ethical blindness are generally the last ones to ever see it in themselves. I'm sure some people at SOE still think that the NGE was a courageous act and something they should take pride in--frightening and sad really. As long as they think this, they're capable--even likely--to do something similar again.
If I could 5-star your post, I would. Anyone who questions why SWG veterans are still upset and still continue to rail against SOE should read every word of this post for the answer. Among many others, this is the core reason why most of us are still holding SOE accountable for their actions, something current players who are also vets fail to do. Those who never played prior to NGE don't have the perspective, understandably, but should still be aware of what the company did to make so many people mad. The fact that the company was ever of the mindset to do this, in the fashion described above, should be enough to make most people run screaming into the night. The fact that they don't just tells you some people are not only willing to be treated like garbage, but they enjoy it and ask for more.
I can't believe the amount of stupidity on SOE's part concerning low populated servers for SWG. Just take the plunge and allow 2 months worth of free transfers.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by Esquire1980
Originally posted by Suvroc
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by Esquire1980
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Yeah, he also said as much during the NJE robe fiasco. Lost a few over that one as well, even though that wasn't all that bad. That's the problem with creating a bad rep for yourself. Even your minor errors become major ones. Things that would normally be forgiven damn you further. They still believe it was COMMUNICATION that was the problem with the NGE. They are clueless as to what they actually did that was wrong. This is what happens when you simply don't give a damn about people, and act as if that were normal. Sooner or later such a mindset catches up with you.
I'm inclined to agree that there are some deep-rooted philosophical issues at work in SOE. Even Freeman said 99% of the MMO companies would never even think of doing an NGE, BEFORE it was such a failure. AFTER, he said it would now be 100%. What does that say about SOE's ethics if they're the 1% that would do it? Remember, after it bombed, the official (and later personal) response was that they were proud to work for a company that was willing to take risks. That's some scary thinking right there. Risks in technical innovation are one thing, but they were talking about ethical risks. They were talking about literally wiping out all that their players had built together over the past two years. They were also talking about marketting revamps for professions that they would then go ahead and delete INSTEAD of revamping. And, they were talking about marketting and implementing an expansion that they would then gut 14 days after it went live. Those are not the "kind" of risks one should be proud of--at all, ever. Their willingness to do these things to people, and then their boasting about it after they saw the negative impact it had, is frankly shocking to me, still. Not surprisingly I completely disagree with the notion that MMOs need to change their business model. It's not the model that is the problem (points to WoW). It's the philosophy at SOE that needs to change, badly. If it doesn't, I think they'll find themselves capable of alienating their customers no matter what model they choose. It's an unfortunate and very disturbing reality though, that people with this ethical blindness are generally the last ones to ever see it in themselves. I'm sure some people at SOE still think that the NGE was a courageous act and something they should take pride in--frightening and sad really. As long as they think this, they're capable--even likely--to do something similar again. Pretty much spot on to what most of us has been saying to why SOE fails. Smedley did apologize, but he apologized on the wrong terms, he didn't apologize about the NGE but he apologized about the bad timing and lack of communicaiton- what lack of communication?? Funny thing is the forums were in an uproar the very minute the NGE were announced by some randomly picked "testers".
Those of us that paid attention to the forums back in 2003-2004 all knew about the future planned JTL and CU, and SOE made their first mistake by announcing that the CU will come before the JTL expansion, SOE's second mistake is stating at publish 9 that Jedi were balanced for the upcoming CU (which got revamped again during the CU). If you followed every word SOE devs has spoken to the players from 2003-2005, you would have seen the "dangling carrot on the stick" method to make players keep subscribing and looking forward to these "awesome" plans, which half of them didn't even happen (capital ship demo anyone?).
Comments
The problem SOE have always had is their retention rate on the dev team, the original beta devs were let go too easily, the pre-cu devs all packed up and shipped out and it's a cycle that hasn't really relented all the way through the games existence. The devs that have worked on the game throughout it's lifespan probably have learned a lesson or two, the problem is they don't stick around long enough to put those lessons into practice and before you know it, you've got a fresh dev team that have to learn the same lessons over again, making the same mistakes as the last lot. Blix is probably one of the longest serving members left and he was little more than a bit part player in the CU as I recall. Also factor in the scaling down of the dev team over time and you've got a nice mix for continued fuck ups. Natural attrition of staff is something all companies have to face but it seems worse at SOE and they compound the problem by shifting people to other projects as well. Fine example of that is Pex, that guy was much loved by the SWG community both past and present and they move him to their new freebie kiddie focused mmo, mismanagement par excellence.
Good point. Also I feel that SWG is their "training room" for new DEVs. The NGE clicky combat system was little more than a test bed for their new game, one that they actually care about, the Agency. I imagine we shall see many of the features brought out during the NGE period incorporated into the Agency and DC Online.
Although of course, since they actually care about those games and want them to succeed rather than be loss leaders, those features will work well in those new games.
fishermage.blogspot.com
And your just coming off yet another free month for everyone that ever had an account with SWG. Didn't that happen after another CHANGE you wanted, the Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade? How'd that work out for you? As I remember, just before C7, the population dropped to a new all time low.
It seems every time they CHANGE the game in a drastic fashion, they have to give free trials to have the paying players see any1 else in game. This time, it was GU-whatever that supplied the MASSIVE CHANGE, they lost subs again, and again, they had another free trial. This will be exactly the same as all the others. After the free trials clear out, you'll be left with even less on the servers. You think it's so great? Go back to Kauri and tell them how it's so great. Just why then is there still all the "we want server merges" threads?
But, you can use your new "grouping" system to find no1 on the game now.
The problem SOE have always had is their retention rate on the dev team, the original beta devs were let go too easily, the pre-cu devs all packed up and shipped out and it's a cycle that hasn't really relented all the way through the games existence. The devs that have worked on the game throughout it's lifespan probably have learned a lesson or two, the problem is they don't stick around long enough to put those lessons into practice and before you know it, you've got a fresh dev team that have to learn the same lessons over again, making the same mistakes as the last lot. Blix is probably one of the longest serving members left and he was little more than a bit part player in the CU as I recall. Also factor in the scaling down of the dev team over time and you've got a nice mix for continued fuck ups. Natural attrition of staff is something all companies have to face but it seems worse at SOE and they compound the problem by shifting people to other projects as well. Fine example of that is Pex, that guy was much loved by the SWG community both past and present and they move him to their new freebie kiddie focused mmo, mismanagement par excellence.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
The problem SOE have always had is their retention rate on the dev team, the original beta devs were let go too easily, the pre-cu devs all packed up and shipped out and it's a cycle that hasn't really relented all the way through the games existence. The devs that have worked on the game throughout it's lifespan probably have learned a lesson or two, the problem is they don't stick around long enough to put those lessons into practice and before you know it, you've got a fresh dev team that have to learn the same lessons over again, making the same mistakes as the last lot. Blix is probably one of the longest serving members left and he was little more than a bit part player in the CU as I recall. Also factor in the scaling down of the dev team over time and you've got a nice mix for continued fuck ups. Natural attrition of staff is something all companies have to face but it seems worse at SOE and they compound the problem by shifting people to other projects as well. Fine example of that is Pex, that guy was much loved by the SWG community both past and present and they move him to their new freebie kiddie focused mmo, mismanagement par excellence.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
As Blix calls it "Mudflation", rendering past achievements as useless or meaningless, thinking the players will just scrap their previous valuables and work towards the next thing Blix and the devs introduce, what they're missing is that people actually like to keep their valuables with some value and point of achievements as "look, I made it this far and I got it" type thing. Taking away a previously achieved goal and turning it into junk or accessable to a 1 day old player is just plain stupid and definitely causes a downfall in population just as it did. Not just Jedi going from unlockable slot to starting profession but turning something like the anti-decay kit into a prof restart kit (nobody dares uses that), turning Krayt/Ackley weapons into worse than newly crafted ones, turning tamed CH pets into stuffed pets, etc.
That's one reason why SOE made the biggest mistake and now they're struggling to recover from that, regarldess of what the fanbois are saying, it's far too little far too late, it isn't getting better enough.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
As Blix calls it "Mudflation", rendering past achievements as useless or meaningless, thinking the players will just scrap their previous valuables and work towards the next thing Blix and the devs introduce, what they're missing is that people actually like to keep their valuables with some value and point of achievements as "look, I made it this far and I got it" type thing. Taking away a previously achieved goal and turning it into junk or accessable to a 1 day old player is just plain stupid and definitely causes a downfall in population just as it did. Not just Jedi going from unlockable slot to starting profession but turning something like the anti-decay kit into a prof restart kit (nobody dares uses that), turning Krayt/Ackley weapons into worse than newly crafted ones, turning tamed CH pets into stuffed pets, etc.
That's one reason why SOE made the biggest mistake and now they're struggling to recover from that, regarldess of what the fanbois are saying, it's far too little far too late, it isn't getting better enough.
the issue starts with ethics. If you actually care about your players as human beings, you would never even dream of doing such a thing. When you don't give a damn about anyone, it's easy.
fishermage.blogspot.com
The problem SOE have always had is their retention rate on the dev team, the original beta devs were let go too easily, the pre-cu devs all packed up and shipped out and it's a cycle that hasn't really relented all the way through the games existence. The devs that have worked on the game throughout it's lifespan probably have learned a lesson or two, the problem is they don't stick around long enough to put those lessons into practice and before you know it, you've got a fresh dev team that have to learn the same lessons over again, making the same mistakes as the last lot. Blix is probably one of the longest serving members left and he was little more than a bit part player in the CU as I recall. Also factor in the scaling down of the dev team over time and you've got a nice mix for continued fuck ups. Natural attrition of staff is something all companies have to face but it seems worse at SOE and they compound the problem by shifting people to other projects as well. Fine example of that is Pex, that guy was much loved by the SWG community both past and present and they move him to their new freebie kiddie focused mmo, mismanagement par excellence.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I think Ledaye summed it up best. He stated on a "stratics" chat I had with him;
"I agree that a product that radically changes after launch was badly designed or managed by people who tend to panic."
So with that line of thought, the C6CD was designed badly being they had to go back and throw in diminshing returns to attributes. Blix admitting C6CD was bad design? And we all know SOE Austin is in panic mode about 90% of the time.
The problem SOE have always had is their retention rate on the dev team, the original beta devs were let go too easily, the pre-cu devs all packed up and shipped out and it's a cycle that hasn't really relented all the way through the games existence. The devs that have worked on the game throughout it's lifespan probably have learned a lesson or two, the problem is they don't stick around long enough to put those lessons into practice and before you know it, you've got a fresh dev team that have to learn the same lessons over again, making the same mistakes as the last lot. Blix is probably one of the longest serving members left and he was little more than a bit part player in the CU as I recall. Also factor in the scaling down of the dev team over time and you've got a nice mix for continued fuck ups. Natural attrition of staff is something all companies have to face but it seems worse at SOE and they compound the problem by shifting people to other projects as well. Fine example of that is Pex, that guy was much loved by the SWG community both past and present and they move him to their new freebie kiddie focused mmo, mismanagement par excellence.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I think Ledaye summed it up best. He stated on a "stratics" chat I had with him;
"I agree that a product that radically changes after launch was badly designed or managed by people who tend to panic."
So with that line of thought, the C6CD was designed badly being they had to go back and throw in diminshing returns to attributes. Blix admitting C6CD was bad design? And we all know SOE Austin is in panic mode about 90% of the time.
They never admit to bad design, until they can blame it on the last guy before them. When Blix gets replaced, that guy will blame design; just as they did to Raph Koster after the fact. They NEVER suck it up and actually assume responsibility. Smedley taught them well.
fishermage.blogspot.com
The problem SOE have always had is their retention rate on the dev team, the original beta devs were let go too easily, the pre-cu devs all packed up and shipped out and it's a cycle that hasn't really relented all the way through the games existence. The devs that have worked on the game throughout it's lifespan probably have learned a lesson or two, the problem is they don't stick around long enough to put those lessons into practice and before you know it, you've got a fresh dev team that have to learn the same lessons over again, making the same mistakes as the last lot. Blix is probably one of the longest serving members left and he was little more than a bit part player in the CU as I recall. Also factor in the scaling down of the dev team over time and you've got a nice mix for continued fuck ups. Natural attrition of staff is something all companies have to face but it seems worse at SOE and they compound the problem by shifting people to other projects as well. Fine example of that is Pex, that guy was much loved by the SWG community both past and present and they move him to their new freebie kiddie focused mmo, mismanagement par excellence.
Blixtev did learn a few things. He made a post a while back that "MMOs have to CHANGE". He learned via CU and NGE and he continues in that exact mindset.
Indeed, but what he failed to realize was there is positive change, which is adding features and content that people like, and negative change, which involves erasing past efforts or nerfing gameplay aspects that people enjoy. The first one generates a growing game, the second, a dying one.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I think Ledaye summed it up best. He stated on a "stratics" chat I had with him;
"I agree that a product that radically changes after launch was badly designed or managed by people who tend to panic."
So with that line of thought, the C6CD was designed badly being they had to go back and throw in diminshing returns to attributes. Blix admitting C6CD was bad design? And we all know SOE Austin is in panic mode about 90% of the time.
They never admit to bad design, until they can blame it on the last guy before them. When Blix gets replaced, that guy will blame design; just as they did to Raph Koster after the fact. They NEVER suck it up and actually assume responsibility. Smedley taught them well.
ROFL I might even renew my sub if Blix was fired. The only thing he should be saying on his next bout of employment is "Would you like frys with that"?
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Yeah, he also said as much during the NJE robe fiasco. Lost a few over that one as well, even though that wasn't all that bad. That's the problem with creating a bad rep for yourself. Even your minor errors become major ones. Things that would normally be forgiven damn you further.
They still believe it was COMMUNICATION that was the problem with the NGE. They are clueless as to what they actually did that was wrong. This is what happens when you simply don't give a damn about people, and act as if that were normal. Sooner or later such a mindset catches up with you.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Yeah, he also said as much during the NJE robe fiasco. Lost a few over that one as well, even though that wasn't all that bad. That's the problem with creating a bad rep for yourself. Even your minor errors become major ones. Things that would normally be forgiven damn you further.
They still believe it was COMMUNICATION that was the problem with the NGE. They are clueless as to what they actually did that was wrong. This is what happens when you simply don't give a damn about people, and act as if that were normal. Sooner or later such a mindset catches up with you.
/agree
It's now really easy to see the development plan that DM and blix put on the table before C6CD. They again, planned on NGEing the game, they just did it in increments this time.
They knew what the next patch was, in fact several patched ahead of themselves, didn't budge off the "plan". So all NGE taught them was not do it all at once.
Still, they got the same effect off of their year of CHANGES as NGE did with it's "one patch CHANGE. I'll bet time all the lost subs are counted, the percentages of playerbase lost are about the same as it was with NGE.
LOL
ah no that gets the
ROFL
Heya Badger. I always like when you pop in here. Our viewpoints diverged after the NGE on some key areas I think, but one thing I always appreciated were your bug threads. Man you really put the serious issues out on the board for all to see. I acknowledge and appreciate the effort there.
As for your lfg tool, for the most part those are a standard feature in MMOs, and certainly not a bad thing. What's a shame though is that Smed specifically promised server mergers at a face to face summit with players, and then went back on his word...again. The lfg tool was then held up as one way SOE intended to address the population issues. So, once again you have SOE saying one thing, and doing another. The "other" in this case just happens to be the lfg tool that you were advocating. I think it's this context that draws the most criticism, and I think that's understandable.
Tbh, if Smed learned to stop saying one thing and doing another, there would be a lot less frustrated gamers out there, and a lot less criticism of SOE and SWG.
Also regarding the Japanese servers. I don't think you can gain a lot of generalizable information from that scenario. Remember that was NGE time. It wasn't just the Japanese playerbase that was quitting. It was most of us. The game was an absolute wreck. If SOE thinks that this example is a representative sample of what server mergers/transfers are likely to look like, they still need to hire someone who has a clue about social/market research. This has been a huge skill deficit area for them as an organization in my view.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Yeah, he also said as much during the NJE robe fiasco. Lost a few over that one as well, even though that wasn't all that bad. That's the problem with creating a bad rep for yourself. Even your minor errors become major ones. Things that would normally be forgiven damn you further.
They still believe it was COMMUNICATION that was the problem with the NGE. They are clueless as to what they actually did that was wrong. This is what happens when you simply don't give a damn about people, and act as if that were normal. Sooner or later such a mindset catches up with you.
I'm inclined to agree that there are some deep-rooted philosophical issues at work in SOE. Even Freeman said 99% of the MMO companies would never even think of doing an NGE, BEFORE it was such a failure. AFTER, he said it would now be 100%. What does that say about SOE's ethics if they're the 1% that would do it?
Remember, after it bombed, the official (and later personal) response was that they were proud to work for a company that was willing to take risks. That's some scary thinking right there.
Risks in technical innovation are one thing, but they were talking about ethical risks. They were talking about literally wiping out all that their players had built together over the past two years. They were also talking about marketting revamps for professions that they would then go ahead and delete INSTEAD of revamping. And, they were talking about marketting and implementing an expansion that they would then gut 14 days after it went live. Those are not the "kind" of risks one should be proud of--at all, ever.
Their willingness to do these things to people, and then their boasting about it after they saw the negative impact it had, is frankly shocking to me, still.
Not surprisingly I completely disagree with the notion that MMOs need to change their business model. It's not the model that is the problem (points to WoW). It's the philosophy at SOE that needs to change, badly. If it doesn't, I think they'll find themselves capable of alienating their customers no matter what model they choose.
It's an unfortunate and very disturbing reality though, that people with this ethical blindness are generally the last ones to ever see it in themselves. I'm sure some people at SOE still think that the NGE was a courageous act and something they should take pride in--frightening and sad really. As long as they think this, they're capable--even likely--to do something similar again.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Yeah, he also said as much during the NJE robe fiasco. Lost a few over that one as well, even though that wasn't all that bad. That's the problem with creating a bad rep for yourself. Even your minor errors become major ones. Things that would normally be forgiven damn you further.
They still believe it was COMMUNICATION that was the problem with the NGE. They are clueless as to what they actually did that was wrong. This is what happens when you simply don't give a damn about people, and act as if that were normal. Sooner or later such a mindset catches up with you.
I'm inclined to agree that there are some deep-rooted philosophical issues at work in SOE. Even Freeman said 99% of the MMO companies would never even think of doing an NGE, BEFORE it was such a failure. AFTER, he said it would now be 100%. What does that say about SOE's ethics if they're the 1% that would do it?
Remember, after it bombed, the official (and later personal) response was that they were proud to work for a company that was willing to take risks. That's some scary thinking right there.
Risks in technical innovation are one thing, but they were talking about ethical risks. They were talking about literally wiping out all that their players had built together over the past two years. They were also talking about marketting revamps for professions that they would then go ahead and delete INSTEAD of revamping. And, they were talking about marketting and implementing an expansion that they would then gut 14 days after it went live. Those are not the "kind" of risks one should be proud of--at all, ever.
Their willingness to do these things to people, and then their boasting about it after they saw the negative impact it had, is frankly shocking to me, still.
Not surprisingly I completely disagree with the notion that MMOs need to change their business model. It's not the model that is the problem (points to WoW). It's the philosophy at SOE that needs to change, badly. If it doesn't, I think they'll find themselves capable of alienating their customers no matter what model they choose.
It's an unfortunate and very disturbing reality though, that people with this ethical blindness are generally the last ones to ever see it in themselves. I'm sure some people at SOE still think that the NGE was a courageous act and something they should take pride in--frightening and sad really. As long as they think this, they're capable--even likely--to do something similar again.
yeah Brenlo, their director of communications, said it was a "bold move" and that "honestly, I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different."
What a reprehensible position. He is also ADAMANT about the failure was due to failed communication. These folks are truly defective when it comes to understanding the basics of business ethics.
I ams till amazed that a person who calls himself a human being can even think like that. I can understand crazy philosophical doctrines and how they can influence people to do abominable things, I can understand how religious outlooks can turn nice, normal people into zealous crazies, but THIS, such total vacancy when it comes to caring about human beings -- this I find completely alien.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Yeah, he also said as much during the NJE robe fiasco. Lost a few over that one as well, even though that wasn't all that bad. That's the problem with creating a bad rep for yourself. Even your minor errors become major ones. Things that would normally be forgiven damn you further.
They still believe it was COMMUNICATION that was the problem with the NGE. They are clueless as to what they actually did that was wrong. This is what happens when you simply don't give a damn about people, and act as if that were normal. Sooner or later such a mindset catches up with you.
I'm inclined to agree that there are some deep-rooted philosophical issues at work in SOE. Even Freeman said 99% of the MMO companies would never even think of doing an NGE, BEFORE it was such a failure. AFTER, he said it would now be 100%. What does that say about SOE's ethics if they're the 1% that would do it?
Remember, after it bombed, the official (and later personal) response was that they were proud to work for a company that was willing to take risks. That's some scary thinking right there.
Risks in technical innovation are one thing, but they were talking about ethical risks. They were talking about literally wiping out all that their players had built together over the past two years. They were also talking about marketting revamps for professions that they would then go ahead and delete INSTEAD of revamping. And, they were talking about marketting and implementing an expansion that they would then gut 14 days after it went live. Those are not the "kind" of risks one should be proud of--at all, ever.
Their willingness to do these things to people, and then their boasting about it after they saw the negative impact it had, is frankly shocking to me, still.
Not surprisingly I completely disagree with the notion that MMOs need to change their business model. It's not the model that is the problem (points to WoW). It's the philosophy at SOE that needs to change, badly. If it doesn't, I think they'll find themselves capable of alienating their customers no matter what model they choose.
It's an unfortunate and very disturbing reality though, that people with this ethical blindness are generally the last ones to ever see it in themselves. I'm sure some people at SOE still think that the NGE was a courageous act and something they should take pride in--frightening and sad really. As long as they think this, they're capable--even likely--to do something similar again.
yeah Brenlo, their director of communications, said it was a "bold move" and that "honestly, I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different."
What a reprehensible position. He is also ADAMANT about the failure was due to failed communication. These folks are truly defective when it comes to understanding the basics of business ethics.
I ams till amazed that a person who calls himself a human being can even think like that. I can understand crazy philosophical doctrines and how they can influence people to do abominable things, I can understand how religious outlooks can turn nice, normal people into zealous crazies, but THIS, such total vacancy when it comes to caring about human beings -- this I find completely alien.
Yes, and Rubenfield was still saying how proud he was of their boldness just a couple of months ago, while calling players whackjobs and telling them to go eat d*ck. Lead designer on the NGE if I remember right--not surprising.
I'm speculating here, but I think it has something to do with losing sight of the customers, ceasing to actually value them as people. It seems that customers just become a sliver on a pie graph that shows your dimishing market share. Then the customer becomes a means to an end. Some faceless entity that you need to hook somehow in order to increase your profit margin. After that, when this approach inevitably backfires, the customer becomes the scapegoat for your failure as you seek to protect your self-image, your reputation and your job.
One upon a time, providing something meaningful or beneficial to other valuable human beings was the goal. If you were good at this, you would be well compensated financially, and you could rightfully be pleased with your accomplishments. SOE leadership truly seems to have lost this vision.
these forums get worse everyday.....
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Poor Obraik.
The White House Press Secretary equivalent for SOE.
I'm actually more inclined to stick up for the dev team responsible for Ch.6, what they had prior to Ch.6 was essentially a single player game, every bit of "content" was soloable, even high end stuff like the vette and DWB. They had half a game and no way to add any further content that could be balanced so that it could present any sort of challenge. So then in their own way they tried to implemented the good old holy trinity class mechanism, while deplorable and something of another NGE at the time for people playing the game, it also meant that they could more easily add content that would be somewhat of a challenge. It's an oft overlooked fact that by making that change it enabled them to add the content that they have since, if Ch.6 had never happened the heroics would likely have never made it into the game and even if they had they wouldn't have offered any kind of a challenge if every class could tank, dps and heal.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
And we have your word on that?
Pull your head out of SOE's colon.
The game is worse now that it was at launch. It has been 5 years and where is the progress?
I'm inclined to agree that there are some deep-rooted philosophical issues at work in SOE. Even Freeman said 99% of the MMO companies would never even think of doing an NGE, BEFORE it was such a failure. AFTER, he said it would now be 100%. What does that say about SOE's ethics if they're the 1% that would do it?
Remember, after it bombed, the official (and later personal) response was that they were proud to work for a company that was willing to take risks. That's some scary thinking right there.
Risks in technical innovation are one thing, but they were talking about ethical risks. They were talking about literally wiping out all that their players had built together over the past two years. They were also talking about marketting revamps for professions that they would then go ahead and delete INSTEAD of revamping. And, they were talking about marketting and implementing an expansion that they would then gut 14 days after it went live. Those are not the "kind" of risks one should be proud of--at all, ever.
Their willingness to do these things to people, and then their boasting about it after they saw the negative impact it had, is frankly shocking to me, still.
Not surprisingly I completely disagree with the notion that MMOs need to change their business model. It's not the model that is the problem (points to WoW). It's the philosophy at SOE that needs to change, badly. If it doesn't, I think they'll find themselves capable of alienating their customers no matter what model they choose.
It's an unfortunate and very disturbing reality though, that people with this ethical blindness are generally the last ones to ever see it in themselves. I'm sure some people at SOE still think that the NGE was a courageous act and something they should take pride in--frightening and sad really. As long as they think this, they're capable--even likely--to do something similar again.
If I could 5-star your post, I would. Anyone who questions why SWG veterans are still upset and still continue to rail against SOE should read every word of this post for the answer. Among many others, this is the core reason why most of us are still holding SOE accountable for their actions, something current players who are also vets fail to do. Those who never played prior to NGE don't have the perspective, understandably, but should still be aware of what the company did to make so many people mad. The fact that the company was ever of the mindset to do this, in the fashion described above, should be enough to make most people run screaming into the night. The fact that they don't just tells you some people are not only willing to be treated like garbage, but they enjoy it and ask for more.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
I can't believe the amount of stupidity on SOE's part concerning low populated servers for SWG. Just take the plunge and allow 2 months worth of free transfers.
Pity Blix and Badger do not seem to understand the difference.
I can't say I recall Blix's post, but whenever I hear industry people talk of change all they seem to be refering to is their business models (i.e. RMT's).
Yeah, he made that exact post in a thread over a year ago with C6CD. When i made a post that that is the exact mindset that brought on CU/NGE, he went back into dev oblivian.
Yeah, he also said as much during the NJE robe fiasco. Lost a few over that one as well, even though that wasn't all that bad. That's the problem with creating a bad rep for yourself. Even your minor errors become major ones. Things that would normally be forgiven damn you further.
They still believe it was COMMUNICATION that was the problem with the NGE. They are clueless as to what they actually did that was wrong. This is what happens when you simply don't give a damn about people, and act as if that were normal. Sooner or later such a mindset catches up with you.
I'm inclined to agree that there are some deep-rooted philosophical issues at work in SOE. Even Freeman said 99% of the MMO companies would never even think of doing an NGE, BEFORE it was such a failure. AFTER, he said it would now be 100%. What does that say about SOE's ethics if they're the 1% that would do it?
Remember, after it bombed, the official (and later personal) response was that they were proud to work for a company that was willing to take risks. That's some scary thinking right there.
Risks in technical innovation are one thing, but they were talking about ethical risks. They were talking about literally wiping out all that their players had built together over the past two years. They were also talking about marketting revamps for professions that they would then go ahead and delete INSTEAD of revamping. And, they were talking about marketting and implementing an expansion that they would then gut 14 days after it went live. Those are not the "kind" of risks one should be proud of--at all, ever.
Their willingness to do these things to people, and then their boasting about it after they saw the negative impact it had, is frankly shocking to me, still.
Not surprisingly I completely disagree with the notion that MMOs need to change their business model. It's not the model that is the problem (points to WoW). It's the philosophy at SOE that needs to change, badly. If it doesn't, I think they'll find themselves capable of alienating their customers no matter what model they choose.
It's an unfortunate and very disturbing reality though, that people with this ethical blindness are generally the last ones to ever see it in themselves. I'm sure some people at SOE still think that the NGE was a courageous act and something they should take pride in--frightening and sad really. As long as they think this, they're capable--even likely--to do something similar again.
Pretty much spot on to what most of us has been saying to why SOE fails. Smedley did apologize, but he apologized on the wrong terms, he didn't apologize about the NGE but he apologized about the bad timing and lack of communicaiton- what lack of communication?? Funny thing is the forums were in an uproar the very minute the NGE were announced by some randomly picked "testers".
Those of us that paid attention to the forums back in 2003-2004 all knew about the future planned JTL and CU, and SOE made their first mistake by announcing that the CU will come before the JTL expansion, SOE's second mistake is stating at publish 9 that Jedi were balanced for the upcoming CU (which got revamped again during the CU). If you followed every word SOE devs has spoken to the players from 2003-2005, you would have seen the "dangling carrot on the stick" method to make players keep subscribing and looking forward to these "awesome" plans, which half of them didn't even happen (capital ship demo anyone?).