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Blizzard : "We dont balance the game for 1v1"
fizzle322
Member Posts: 723
As long as you have ppl like Tom Chilton working for Blizzard, PvP will NEVER be balanced.
4 classes totally dominate battlegrounds, and the rest are just free honor kills.
You got invisible people walking around that can stun you for damn near the whole fight, so you can't even fight back, and if they start losing no problem they just vanish into thin air.
You got Warlocks running around doing dot dot dot fear dot dot dot fear dot dot dot fear.
Basically they put insta-cast damage over time spells on you, and then fear you so you just run around and can't control your character.
Their felpuppy pet can solo a mage by itself because it eats mana.
You got Warrior/Pally combos running around, Warrior swinging a big axe that does 3k damage a swing, Pally running behind healing him.
If you attack the pally he bubbles himself and becomes invincible while the Warrior 3-shots you.
Meanwhile Mages can only enter battlegrounds with 1 tree, frost, because it gives you ice barrier and two ice blocks for when you meet Mr Rogue Mr Warlock Mr Warrior and Mr Hunter.
Basic strategy Mage vs Warlock, just run away, you are a free kill, you won't even get a spell off before you get dotted up and feared.
Mage version of crowd control? Sheep, WHICH HEALS YOUR OPPONENTS TO FULL.
So if the warrior is wailing on you, and if you can cast sheep, you can breath easy for 6 seconds, while sheep heals him to full.
Mage main nukes are 3 second cast fireball and 2.5 second cast frost bolt, but almost nobody uses them. You can't use 3 second cast spells in battlegrounds, because of spell pushback, if someone attacks you you start recasting from the beginning.
You try to explain all this on the Blizzard forums you get the same answer from blue all the time.
"We don't balance the game for 1v1"
Which basically means "yeah we know the game isn't balanced."
Bottom line if you love PvP or like to play Mage characters in games, then just find another game.
Their lead game balance guy basically hates Mages.
Basic logic dictates that if a character has the LOWEST armor and LOWEST health in the game, he should do the most damage right?
Instead Blizzard has implemented a policy of "equalization."
What that means is that hybrid classes, leather classes, mail classes, even plate classes, can ALL do as much if not more dps than a guy wearing a robe.
Yes the plate wearing warrior with 12000 hp with the right spec can outdps a robe-wearing Mage with 7000 hp.
But wait there's more.
Basic logic dictates that if your main tool is stealth, then you can't also have the best damage in the game, because then why would anyone want to be visible and also do LESS damage? That just doesn't make sense.
And yet, the class that walks around invisible is also the one with the highest dps in the game.
Thats like cloakers in Planetside carrying Jackhammers while ppl in Rexo armor carry pistols.
Thats like covert ops in Eve carrying a Doomsday Device while Battleships all have 2 small railguns.
I have never seen such complete lack of balance in any game.
And Blizz justifies it with 7 simple words : "We dont balance the game for 1v1"
More like you don't balance the game at ALL.
Comments
Three words:
Dueling asshats suck
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
I dunno. So far Rogues, restro druids and warlocks seem to be OP. Throw in Pallies and warriors that are present in every Arena team. I personally play a frost mage and rarely get killed in BG's.
Which class is left? Isn't it obvious.. all classes are OP!!!!
ironically, rogues give me the least amount of trouble, and the class that is supposedly the weakest at PVP gives me the most trouble (enhance shaman).
I think if you only play one class then you will feel ike a certain other class is OP.. but once you play enough classes you realize they all have trouble with one class or another.
The hardest part of PVP is when you realize that when you fight an equally geared and skilled player, you are going to lose 50% of the time.. that doesn't seem right, does it?
Looks like smbody got owned
(Btw the warrior is very bad example against a mage in 1 v 1. Mage can kill a warrior so that the warrior cant even touch him. )
You see, to me this is the essence of the stupidity of the "waaah, it's not balanced" point of view.
You can always play the class that keeps pwning your whatever, and then discover that the pwning class gets pwned by someone else.
You can't satisfy the duellists unless that particular player has an "I win" button that works on every other player in the game, regardless of the class either player is playing.
Then, and only then, will there be "balance" for that player.
Blizz has told the whining baby duellists to stick it.
Good for Blizz.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
I don't know, he seems to be doing a pretty good job if you ask me. I don't think Blizzard is too upset with having 10 million plus subscribers, being ranked #1 MMO by the likes of Gamerankings.com and having held the #1 spot for players on Xfire for 1059 days and counting. Perhaps things are bit better than you believe and you're over reacting just a bit?
I don't know, he seems to be doing a pretty good job if you ask me. I don't think Blizzard is too upset with having 10 million plus subscribers, being ranked #1 MMO by the likes of Gamerankings.com and having held the #1 spot for players on Xfire for 1059 days and counting. Perhaps things are bit better than you believe and you're over reacting just a bit?
Success doesn't mean the PvP is balanced.
I don't know, he seems to be doing a pretty good job if you ask me. I don't think Blizzard is too upset with having 10 million plus subscribers, being ranked #1 MMO by the likes of Gamerankings.com and having held the #1 spot for players on Xfire for 1059 days and counting. Perhaps things are bit better than you believe and you're over reacting just a bit?
How does that have anything to do with PvP? How do you know that half of those people playing are only playing because their friends are, and their friends are playing because of PvE? See, there's so many factors, but I highly doubt that anything you just said proves WoW has "balanced" PvP.
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
Just because you suck at your class doesn't mean everyone else is overpowered.
Do you know for certain?
Then make an arena team, Get a good partner, get better, and be the #1 team in your battlegroup.
There are an ENDLESS number of these posts on the blizz forums. If pvp isnt balenced, dont do pvp.
Paper is fine, Nerf rock. ~Scissors
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And quite frankly, he is right. You can NOT balance any MMO perfectly for 1 on 1 PvP.
You will always have tiers. Some classes will always be netter and some will always be worse, that is inevitable.
Fighting games don't have perfect balance and that whole genre was built off 1 on 1 fighting.
Perfect balance would mean every one being the same class and the same spec and having the same gear. There, there is your perfect 1 on 1 balance.
You're right, they balance for 2v2 arena.
a lot of it comes down to skill. as a hunter (when we were "overpowered" in pvp) i found myself killing most classes ( a nice mix really but i tended to go for softer targets (rogues out of stealth, mages, warlocks and priests) and i got nailed by every class out there (rogues did not bother me as i usually positioned myself so that my teammates would be the first to feel the daggers of doom
.
i think a lot of the problems with this kind of PvP is people expect to stand around (or do the same thing over and over) and expect things to work for them, for their opponents to follow a set path (like AI's). get that out of your head and start thinking properly and you wont die so much, you wont have trouble with certain classes and you wont be frustrated (i found it enjoyable to kill 1-3 guys in a row before getting 2 or 3 shotted by a rogue or mage, it did not bother me in the slightest). you have to also think about it from a lore perspective. some classes are supposed to be killers (rogues, hunters and mages). yes it is a game and yes its supposed to be fair (or close to). the devs are only human and you have to accept that some classes will always be better against your class than others.
yes atm there are 4 really OP classes and the others can hardly kill each other, thats a problem. however only 1-2 OP classes and everyone else able to kill each other is fine in my eyes.
anyway what would i know? i only played the pvp for 4 weeks before the BC (guess why) and never went back
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Such predefined game can never have balance. There are and always will be only few successful combinations with exact specs. Is it the balance? No! Thats why Blizzard make so much changes named "class balance" almost every patch already for 4 years, and often with terrible results. Balance in MMO can be done only by players in good sandbox game.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
wow...the saddest thing ever in a WoW thread...a bunch of fanbois flaming the OP cuz hes right. OP I totally agree with you sir..because Ive seen it my self. The OP knows what he is talking about to the T...I mean I play a rogue and agree that the class is pretty over powered since mine hasnt even hit 70 yet, but I can sure take down a nicely geared 70 since like the OP mentioned..they cant kill what they cant see. I play in BG all the time and I always see basically everything that the OP mentioned...its not balanced and with the DK coming with the new expansion...its just going to get worse.
Ah, I remember when I use to play WoW a long time ago. Played various classes and won often in duels, BGs etc. kept winning against combos I shouldn't win with different classes. hell, even traded classes with a friend and beat my own class with his.
I realized what was wrong. All the classes were not overpowered, but I was! So I quit, hehe.
Actually quit because I got bored. I had friends who won with "weak" classes at the time all the time and saw others who had the overpowered classes lose. Sure there was some imbalance and I am sure there still is, although i don't know to what extent it is currently, but a good player who knows his class inside out can beat another good player. Of course usually, there are some classes that aren't really meant for another to win consistently.
I remember when playing a rogue that hunters and warriors at the time should always beat them and I would constantly win, against good players, or a friend druid who beat everyone almost all the time, but lost 60% of the time against me. Skill and equipment and not following blindly a cookie cutter spec can do wonders.
If you're getting beat consistently, try some tactics that aren't the proscribed way of fighting. Might just find a weakness. Be creative!
95% of us are agreeing with the OP. I know what the OP is talking about and I agree with him. Please read all the threads and not just the ones that dont agree with him.
While yes blizzards pvp isnt completely balenced, there are other factors too. Gear is a huge factor, and so is skill. Just because as a mage your "supposed" to kill warriors, if you have s1 gear and he has s3/4 gear chances are he is going to win. Of course if you have the same gear (lets say you both have s2) and you duel and he wins, Its because he is a skilled player.
Only the average pvper uses the balence as an excuse. Try and adapt and find a way to beat your opponent.
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The OP isn't wrong for saying classes aren't balanced 1v1. The OP is wrong for expecting the game to balance around 1v1 fights. If you want to 'judge' the devs on their ability to balance pvp.. look at class representation of 2000+ ranked 5v5 teams. The classes are actually pretty evenly distributed.
I cant wait to see 1000 news DK coming with the new expansion lol
it s gonna be the World of DK
You ppl who call me a "duelist" are tools.
I was specifically talking about Battlegrounds which is nothing more than 1v1 on a mass scale.
Yeah you have 40 people fighting each other, but once you pick out a target or someone picks YOU out, it BECOMES a 1 on 1.
I'm not saying the game should be perfectly balanced for this, of course %100 balance is a wet dream.
I'm saying that at least the devs can /try/ to make classes balanced 1v1.
At least give me the tools to stand a CHANCE against trouble classes, in case I have to fight them alone in a tower in Warsong Gulch.
Of course you are supposed to have disadvantages against certain classes, but not on the ridiculous scale we see in WoW.
I don't get mad when Rogues pwn me, I just wish I could control my character %50 of the time, maybe get a few spells off, then die.
I don't get mad when Warlocks pwn me, I just wish I wasn't slowly dying to a DoT while walking around feared.
All I'm saying is that all classes should have a fighting CHANCE against each other.
Not a straight [class X] beats [class Y] which beats [class Z]
That goes against the spirit of PvP and the spirit of competition.
I'll give you guys another expample :
Can you give me ONE good reason why Mages have the lowest health in the game considering that half the classes in the game do better damage?
From a balance perspective it makes ZERO sense.
You could make Mages have 12,000 hp and wear plate and it wouldn't be unbalanced, because other characters who wear plate can do the same DPS.
You could give Mages a real Invisibility spell, on par with Rogue stealth, and it would not be unbalanced, because Rogues still do double the DPS of Mages and wear Leather and have more health.
Now Blizzard claims it wants WoW PvP to be an e-sport.
Who are you kidding?
An e-sport??
If the Olympics were like the PvP in WoW, Jackie-Joyner Kursey would get sapped at 200 meters and get feared off the racetrack with 4 DoT's.
Of course you can say "roll those classes" but don't we already have enough Rogues?
On PvP servers Rogues are like %40 of the population, everybody wants to be an invisible ninja.
Also what ever happened to ENJOYING a theme and playing it?
So I gotta roll a theme I dont like in order to be competative in your e-sport?
Yes, WoW is commercially successful, thats not to say it wouldn't be MORE commercially successful if they actually made an EFFORT to balance the classes for PvP.
I'm not saying it should be %100 balanced.
I'm just saying "make an effort."
Dont just throw your hands up and say "we dont balance the game for 1v1" because that's a complete cop-out.
Put your design minds to work and TRY to balance them.
As I said from a balance standpoint, it would NOT be overpowering if Mages had 12000 HP and wore plate and could walk around Invisible.
Of course it would be thematically stupid, but purely balance-wise it would make sense.
But instead of doing that, how about looking into buffing MANA SHIELD (the most uselsss spell in the game which is considered by most Mages to be a DE-BUFF) or ICE ARMOR?
How about looking into buffing INVIS?
How about Ooooooh I dunno, having sheep NOT HEAL THE TARGET just like every other CC.
But no, sheep is supposed to heal you, but when you CC me, I'm still taking damage and that's balanced right?
WoW PvP will NEVER be an e-sport until more than 4 classes can participate in it.
I wish Blizz would just concentrate on what its good at, PvE content, but since you went down the PvP road YOU HAVE TO DO IT RIGHT.
And who gives a rat's tush about little 1 versus 1 fights in a MMORPG? If that is what I wanted I would play counterstrike.
Blizzard can't help if people pvp stupidly. Blizzard can't fix stupid players. If a team is all scattered targetting different targets .... then they just don't understand the game.
When I played WoW my Mage was always in the top 3 in most kills in bg's. I guess it was because I never tried to fight people right in their face like I see alot of noob mages do.I used the grps to my advantage and did my duty as a nuker and nuked alot of folks into oblivion.I agree there are some balance issues ,but it was not that bad if you played in a grp. Solo now that was a different story,but I always like grp and world pvp anyway.One more thing I have yet to find a mmo that is balance among all its classes :P
You see, to me this is the essence of the stupidity of the "waaah, it's not balanced" point of view.
You can always play the class that keeps pwning your whatever, and then discover that the pwning class gets pwned by someone else.
You can't satisfy the duellists unless that particular player has an "I win" button that works on every other player in the game, regardless of the class either player is playing.
Then, and only then, will there be "balance" for that player.
Blizz has told the whining baby duellists to stick it.
Good for Blizz.
Perfect Answer and I agree most players want the I Win Button,and I want it me me me. LOL Kidding.
The OP isn't wrong for saying classes aren't balanced 1v1. The OP is wrong for expecting the game to balance around 1v1 fights. If you want to 'judge' the devs on their ability to balance pvp.. look at class representation of 2000+ ranked 5v5 teams. The classes are actually pretty evenly distributed.
No actually thats not balance.
Of course every class is "fine" if its carried by 4 other classes.
Every class has a certain "worth", based on stats like health, dps, armor, and their abilities, like the ability to heal, the ability to be invis, and so forth.
Mages currently have the lowest "worth" in PvP.
Yeah you can be fine if you are carried by 4 other players, even if you cannot stand on your own 2 feet.
I totally admit that I'm not the best PvPer in the world, but I'm also not the worst.
I've had other Mages completely destroy me and shut me down, my hat's off to them.
I've also had Warlocks who play WORSE than me kill me just because they rolled my "problem class."
If you can get a Warlock down to %10 health and die to his DoT, that guy sucks, if he played his class properly I wouldn't even be able to get 1 spell off.
I shouldn't have to play twice as well just because someone clicked "Warlock" on the character selection screen.
And by the way yes I do have a Warlock alt and a Rogue alt and a Hunter alt.
They are powerful but they're just not fun to play.
I want to play what *I* find fun and to be able to compete with that class, but Blizz has made that impossible for me.
Problem isn't the balance. Its people who dont know how to pvp or pvp as a team. Ive taken more than my share of classes and done fine with all. Mage is far from easy as one may think but it certainly doesn't have the problems that you would say it has.