I was talking to my wife last night, and she's still enamored enough with WoW that she plays regularly, why bother with the grindpak?
We've all ready done this once before, it's called TBC, and frankly, it was both a nice addition, and a complete let down. It was nice that it added new content, but it also added so many different grinds that I quit caring. To the point now my account has 6 weeks left on it and I haven't logged in since June.
Why bother grinding to 80? Why bother running 10 man arthas? Get more gear that, in 18-24 months will be pointless again? To do endless arena seasons all in hopes of getting some welfare epics? More rep grinds and endless hours running instances over and over in hopes of either getting that lucky gear drop, or enough DKP to get your gear?
Bah and humbug to all that! I know, the PVP!!! Wait, this is WoW. WoW + PVP = dull, boring and pointless.
I'm seriously confounded as to why anyone would pay money to do the same things all over again, for the third time. Just because they re-skinned it, added a pretty, if pointless pvp zone? For the Lore? (HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH Lore.. WoW... ROFL!)
Anyway, why bother? There are new games coming, with new objectives, new twists, new mechanics and new focus. Wouldn't months spent playing be better spent on something new, not just the same old mechanics with new skins and a few new twists?
One last thing, "Deathknight LFG!" Will be a rolling spam, and you first have to go back and burn through the old world, then through TBC just to play in the new zones.
Sounds like.. just... so... much... fun.
I think the problem here is that you are looking at it the wrong way. Instead of saying "hey, they are adding all this content and in the end these are the rewards" you are looking at it like "these are all the rewards I want and this is all the stuff I HAVE TO DO in order to get it.
To me it's just your point of reference that seems to be getting in your way.
This seems to be a large downfall of WoW in that there are players who are more concerned with rewards and less about just playing. I hear about all these grinds but to be honest none of it seems to really bother me as I just log in for a bit, play a small bit and log off. I have my fun and move on.
But many WoW players have become so enamored of the rewards and making sure that they have all the highest rewards at all times that they have skewed their game play and have created a horrible treadmill for themselves which seems to have created some self fullfilling prophecy of doom.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What's sad is the same 4 BGs and arena in PvP that concerns me. They just upgrade the gear and make you grind again the same PvP content. There is a lack of options out there right now, but there is a large void to fill for PvP. That's why so many wanted to try AOC, they wanted better PvP among other things. If a game can come and fill that void it will pull a large demographic of WoW away. At least you admit WoW PvP is not massive. Another problem is it is all instanced, with no endgame world objectives other than PvE driven ones.
"Better" PVP won't be enough and shouldn't be enough, what we should hope and ask for is better PVP AND better PVE.
Pre-toa daoc was nowhere as grindy as wow. "You mean, WoW and every other MMO?:" I didn't put the blame on WoW just the fact that there is grind in it. I meant WoW had it, I didn't make a sweeping statement that every MMO had it. WoW has more grind than pre-toa daoc for sure. I managed to get through daoc pretty much without any grinding whatsoever after I max leveled. That's definitely less "grindy" than having to farm rep or instances. Even though you didn't consider fury an mmo, it was and did not have as much grind. "Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now" DAOC classic servers definitely have less grind than WoW. Once again reading comprehension. I never said WoW caused the whole genre's problems, merely that it followed suit. It does disguise the grind better than most but it's still there. I'm saying MMO's as a whole need to focus less on grind and extend true content with less repetition, and the fact that the a whole lot of past effort is being totally ignored after every xpac hits. What's sad is the same 4 BGs and arena in PvP that concerns me. They just upgrade the gear and make you grind again the same PvP content. There is a lack of options out there right now, but there is a large void to fill for PvP. That's why so many wanted to try AOC, they wanted better PvP among other things. If a game can come and fill that void it will pull a large demographic of WoW away. At least you admit WoW PvP is not massive. Another problem is it is all instanced, with no endgame world objectives other than PvE driven ones.
You examples as you put them consisted of a PvP centric game that had to remove PvE content due the it being widely considered as one of the worst grinds ever, another PvP centric game that is closing down in the next 48 hours due to many reasons and a game that is more like diablo online with arenas than an MMO.
So when you make a comment that WoW as if it is different than just about every other MMO, those aren't very convincing examples.
I completely agree with you that there are a lack of options in the genre right now and that is why WoW is so successful. The PvP while not massive is better than just about any other games right now, as well as the PvE. WoW is introducing more/better world objective PvP with some actual innovations, but it is still a game that offers more options than just one like so many one trick pony games. I don't expect WoW to turn into some PvP focused game anytime soon though. Likewise I don't expect some PvP based game to offer impressive PvE, but will be surprised if they do.
The one thing I think we essentially differ on is that you feel blizzard "makes" you do something. I do the things I enjoy in a game and stop them when they are no longer fun. I could care less about the rewards if the activities are not enjoyable, I do something else. Thats why I think WoW has a good model, it offers so many things to do. You seem to look at the end game options as if they are some chore you must endure to get whatever satisfaction is at the end of work.
Originally posted by fuzzylojik Pre-toa daoc was nowhere as grindy as wow. "You mean, WoW and every other MMO?:" I didn't put the blame on WoW just the fact that there is grind in it. I meant WoW had it, I didn't make a sweeping statement that every MMO had it. WoW has more grind than pre-toa daoc for sure. I managed to get through daoc pretty much without any grinding whatsoever after I max leveled. That's definitely less "grindy" than having to farm rep or instances. Even though you didn't consider fury an mmo, it was and did not have as much grind. "Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now" DAOC classic servers definitely have less grind than WoW. Once again reading comprehension. I never said WoW caused the whole genre's problems, merely that it followed suit. It does disguise the grind better than most but it's still there. I'm saying MMO's as a whole need to focus less on grind and extend true content with less repetition, and the fact that the a whole lot of past effort is being totally ignored after every xpac hits. What's sad is the same 4 BGs and arena in PvP that concerns me. They just upgrade the gear and make you grind again the same PvP content. There is a lack of options out there right now, but there is a large void to fill for PvP. That's why so many wanted to try AOC, they wanted better PvP among other things. If a game can come and fill that void it will pull a large demographic of WoW away. At least you admit WoW PvP is not massive. Another problem is it is all instanced, with no endgame world objectives other than PvE driven ones.
You examples as you put them consisted of a PvP centric game that had to remove PvE content due the it being widely considered as one of the worst grinds ever, another PvP centric game that is closing down in the next 48 hours due to many reasons and a game that is more like diablo online with arenas than an MMO.
So when you make a comment that WoW as if it is different than just about every other MMO, those aren't very convincing examples.
I completely agree with you that there are a lack of options in the genre right now and that is why WoW is so successful. The PvP while not massive is better than just about any other games right now, as well as the PvE. WoW is introducing more/better world objective PvP with some actual innovations, but it is still a game that offers more options than just one like so many one trick pony games. I don't expect WoW to turn into some PvP focused game anytime soon though. Likewise I don't expect some PvP based game to offer impressive PvE, but will be surprised if they do.
The one thing I think we essentially differ on is that you feel blizzard "makes" you do something. I do the things I enjoy in a game and stop them when they are no longer fun. I could care less about the rewards if the activities are not enjoyable, I do something else. Thats why I think WoW has a good model, it offers so many things to do. You seem to look at the end game options as if they are some chore you must endure to get whatever satisfaction is at the end of work.
Pre-toa daoc is still valid a example which did very well, a lot of pve content was only added post toa. Fury was touted as an MMO be developers and is on the left column of this website in "Released Games" in MMORPG. If you don't consider it an MMO take it up with MMORPG.com to remove it from the list. I never said WoW was different from just about every other MMOs anywhere? Stop making stuff up.
Just as you said, WoW is a PvE centric game with limited PvP options and it is what it is. A mainly PvE game.
Thing are only fun when they are not repeated a gajillion times. Playing the same 4 BGs and arenas so many times to me gets boring. I'm a PvPer, so I only look at the PvP aspects. There are some like me who like PvP more than PvE.
End-game options are not supposed to be a chore, but when PvP is small scale, repetitive, instanced and gear-centric with lack of options it gets tiring and people quit. Bliz realised they needed more PvP content and is adding a new PvP zone but it will probably be gear-centric, 'loot and scoot' affair too little too late for the PvPers.
Even in PvE, some people enjoy grinding for rep repeatedly or doing the same heroic dungeon over and over. Others don't that's why they quit.
What is it with all the nerd rage today. If you enjoy it then its just called progressing through the game. If you dont then its called "grind." So if you dont like it um don't play. Quit whining about a game you dont even like. What do you expect them to do, just give you a full set of level 80 purples? What do you do in every other game you play? Do you not grind? Of course you grind. Bottom line is alot of ppl have been playing for 4+ years and they're burned out.
I suspect you will just end up back here in 1-2-3 years saying the same things about the new games expanion.
It's entirely possible, if the new game fails to evolve and instead just layers more of the same on with no meaning.
Yes.
But only when we hit Xpansion #2. First expansion is always a chance to get in stuff that couldn't/wouldn't make release and to tidy up things.
Expansion Pack 2 is where a dev team is judged. Is the game enhanced, altered in a positive way or just more of the same?
Which game has ever evolved?
{ Mod Edit }
First off there is no video game that you play for your whole life.
Video games are content, like movies. You pop it in, you play it, you toss the disk in the trash. Sometimes you can go back and watch it again, but eventually you've seen Terminator 2 like 800 times.
I'm not tired of WoW yet, so I will keep playing it.
I suspect you will just end up back here in 1-2-3 years saying the same things about the new games expanion.
It's entirely possible, if the new game fails to evolve and instead just layers more of the same on with no meaning.
Yes.
But only when we hit Xpansion #2. First expansion is always a chance to get in stuff that couldn't/wouldn't make release and to tidy up things.
Expansion Pack 2 is where a dev team is judged. Is the game enhanced, altered in a positive way or just more of the same?
Which game has ever evolved?
{ Mod Edit }
First off there is no video game that you play for your whole life.
Video games are content, like movies. You pop it in, you play it, you toss the disk in the trash. Sometimes you can go back and watch it again, but eventually you've seen Terminator 2 like 800 times.
I'm not tired of WoW yet, so I will keep playing it.
When it stops being fun, stop playing.
Well, actually uncle who's now like 40+ has played pac-man and still does for most of his life. Now he's playing some weird new version of it so it's entirely possible.
I think its possible for a game to evolve. WoW for instance has areas, instances, BG, arena, rep grinds and abilities not available in release. It has evolved to be a game with more content and the grahics will "evolve" in the next expansion as well.
Yeah, when a game stops being fun its time to stop playing. Some people just cling on cos they have "too much invested" even when they are not having fun anymore. That's just kinda sad
The latest guilds wars expansion is all reputation grinds and the like and really isn't a traditional MMO. Fury is a dead game and widely considered not a 'real mmo' either. Original DAOC was about as grindy as WoW is now and only got worse. I wouldn't say your examples are fine by any means.
When someone asked you "You mean, WoW and every other MMO?", you responded "Nope i mean WoW.". You can try to color all your other comments however you want, but you sure go the extra mile to put all the blame on one game for something you admit is a widespread problem in the entire genre. Honestly all fantasy MMOs right now are built on the same foundation of level up, adventure, acquire items, repeat or carrot on a stick as you put it.
Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now and offers more choices of activities at end game than the next closest competitor. WoW has great PvE and while it isn't some massive PvP game, it sure does better PvP than just about any other game our right now. That is a pretty big accomlishment especially if you compare it to many of the other games that are at best a one trick pony.
Are you really trying to discuss the lightbulb of just singling out one game for the faults of the entire genre?
Pre-toa daoc was nowhere as grindy as wow.
"You mean, WoW and every other MMO?:"
I didn't put the blame on WoW just the fact that there is grind in it. I meant WoW had it, I didn't make a sweeping statement that every MMO had it. WoW has more grind than pre-toa daoc for sure. I managed to get through daoc pretty much without any grinding whatsoever after I max leveled. That's definitely less "grindy" than having to farm rep or instances. Even though you didn't consider fury an mmo, it was and did not have as much grind.
"Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now"
DAOC classic servers definitely have less grind than WoW.
Once again reading comprehension. I never said WoW caused the whole genre's problems, merely that it followed suit. It does disguise the grind better than most but it's still there.
I'm saying MMO's as a whole need to focus less on grind and extend true content with less repetition, and the fact that the a whole lot of past effort is being totally ignored after every xpac hits.
What's sad is the same 4 BGs and arena in PvP that concerns me. They just upgrade the gear and make you grind again the same PvP content. There is a lack of options out there right now, but there is a large void to fill for PvP. That's why so many wanted to try AOC, they wanted better PvP among other things. If a game can come and fill that void it will pull a large demographic of WoW away. At least you admit WoW PvP is not massive. Another problem is it is all instanced, with no endgame world objectives other than PvE driven ones.
{ Mod Edit }
Pray tell, what do you do in DaoC at max level, wise guy?
What is there besides : more content vs repetition?
Wait I know. PvP.
That is the same answer every game has to "not enough content" when you hit max level you fight other players and the "content never ends."
Dont even mention Eve, Eve doesnt HAVE any content.
If Blizz is guilty of anything they're guilty of being TOO good, the instances they gave us were so well done, we did them all a hundred times and wanted more.
But they dont have the capacity to give us more content that fast.
The whole basis of raiding is to see the next content, but you also need the gear to progress, you're not getting the gear for its own sake, its just a tool to get to the next area.
So when you hit level 71 and replace purple with green, big deal.
You didnt get the purple because its purple, you got it to see the inside of Black Temple.
Only like %1 of the playerbase will ever see Mt Hyjal or Black Temple.
Only like %2 of the playerbase will ever see SSC.
It's not about purples, it's about seeing more content.
The latest guilds wars expansion is all reputation grinds and the like and really isn't a traditional MMO. Fury is a dead game and widely considered not a 'real mmo' either. Original DAOC was about as grindy as WoW is now and only got worse. I wouldn't say your examples are fine by any means.
When someone asked you "You mean, WoW and every other MMO?", you responded "Nope i mean WoW.". You can try to color all your other comments however you want, but you sure go the extra mile to put all the blame on one game for something you admit is a widespread problem in the entire genre. Honestly all fantasy MMOs right now are built on the same foundation of level up, adventure, acquire items, repeat or carrot on a stick as you put it.
Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now and offers more choices of activities at end game than the next closest competitor. WoW has great PvE and while it isn't some massive PvP game, it sure does better PvP than just about any other game our right now. That is a pretty big accomlishment especially if you compare it to many of the other games that are at best a one trick pony.
Are you really trying to discuss the lightbulb of just singling out one game for the faults of the entire genre?
Pre-toa daoc was nowhere as grindy as wow.
"You mean, WoW and every other MMO?:"
I didn't put the blame on WoW just the fact that there is grind in it. I meant WoW had it, I didn't make a sweeping statement that every MMO had it. WoW has more grind than pre-toa daoc for sure. I managed to get through daoc pretty much without any grinding whatsoever after I max leveled. That's definitely less "grindy" than having to farm rep or instances. Even though you didn't consider fury an mmo, it was and did not have as much grind.
"Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now"
DAOC classic servers definitely have less grind than WoW.
Once again reading comprehension. I never said WoW caused the whole genre's problems, merely that it followed suit. It does disguise the grind better than most but it's still there.
I'm saying MMO's as a whole need to focus less on grind and extend true content with less repetition, and the fact that the a whole lot of past effort is being totally ignored after every xpac hits.
What's sad is the same 4 BGs and arena in PvP that concerns me. They just upgrade the gear and make you grind again the same PvP content. There is a lack of options out there right now, but there is a large void to fill for PvP. That's why so many wanted to try AOC, they wanted better PvP among other things. If a game can come and fill that void it will pull a large demographic of WoW away. At least you admit WoW PvP is not massive. Another problem is it is all instanced, with no endgame world objectives other than PvE driven ones.
{ Mod Edit }
Pray tell, what do you do in DaoC at max level, wise guy?
What is there besides : more content vs repetition?
Wait I know. PvP.
That is the same answer every game has to "not enough content" when you hit max level you fight other players and the "content never ends."
Dont even mention Eve, Eve doesnt HAVE any content.
If Blizz is guilty of anything they're guilty of being TOO good, the instances they gave us were so well done, we did them all a hundred times and wanted more.
But they dont have the capacity to give us more content that fast.
The whole basis of raiding is to see the next content, but you also need the gear to progress, you're not getting the gear for its own sake, its just a tool to get to the next area.
So when you hit level 71 and replace purple with green, big deal.
You didnt get the purple because its purple, you got it to see the inside of Black Temple.
Only like %1 of the playerbase will ever see Mt Hyjal or Black Temple.
Only like %2 of the playerbase will ever see SSC.
It's not about purples, it's about seeing more content.
Yeah exactly PvP and RvR at max level was tons of fun at least it was massive and not all instanced and item-centric.
You can have more PvP content. Why not, just add it like you would PvE content. More world objectives and quests etc. The problem is WoW hasn't got any of that progression.
I never had a problem with their PvE instances, just lack of PvP content. Getting gear to get to the next area doesn't apply in PvP. They make you play the same 4 BGs and arenas, don't add anything and just put in new gear every cycle. I don't want to see more PvE content, I want to PvP and see more of that content which is.... non-existent. Which is the main problem, the lack of world PvP objectives and content.
If in every xpac they made PvEr's play the Naxx over and over again for upgraded loot how would you feel? Well playing the same BGs over and over is the same for PvPers. It's somewhat better because it against players but even then the content get old after a while. You probably don't have to add PvP content as fast as PvE content but seriously 4 BG and arenas in 4 years vs how many PvE instances in TBC alone?
On a side note....so it's ok that 1% and 2% of players see MH/BT and SSC respectively? LMAO. Like I said if you are having fun with the raiding that's fine, go have fun. If you on the other hand like the OP feel that your effort was for nothing because it gets replaced every xpac then you have an issue. To each his own.
You have to respect people opinions and not fling derogatory terms around like "on drugs", "nerd rage" and "wise guy" and debate stuff in a more mature way.
This thread was posted about why play the expansion and you are complaining about there being no world objectives and lack of PvP.
You do know that Blizzard is adding in a world PvP zone with destructable environment, world objectives, seige engines/vehicles, air combat, new rewards systems, new incentives to world PvP, etc?
I don't know all the details, but it sounds like they are doing the exact thing you are screaming that they don't do. The complete details I don't know first hand, but will tell all I can when I get there in beta. For a PvE centric game it sure sounds like they are adding in lots of good PvP elements.
Also a side note, way more than a fraction of players get to see high end raids in WoW. Raid progression isn't very different in WoW than it was in EQ as far as how guilds take their time advancing.
The thing about DAoC was that you went out, and mattered! You didn't matter for yourself, and your gear. you mattered for your REALM! Your actions helped you and your buds WIN something. Sure it wasn't permanant, yes we all desired greatly to storm the enemy capital and teach those thugs from Midgard the error of messing with Albion...
But the thing is, I never felt bored doing it. I never had to log in, group up in the big raid, get everyone sorted, listen to the same twerp repeat the same instructions on "how to do this encounter" and how we should really work harder to beat this boss this time. There were no DKP fights, no worries about loot. You just went out with your friends, and had fun.
We went out, we killed, we conquered... and sometimes we got our butts handed to us. It was NEVER the same fight. Sure the area was the same, sure the keep was the same... but instead of a bunch of Melee fighters with healers this tiem it was healers and AoE casters! Damn and we had little ranged support! it was ALWAYS a new encounter. Or we had the keep and Midgard would bring in the heavy hitters and we'd fight for almost an hour, back and forth till either we were over run or they gave up.
It MATTERED to the REALM. It wasn't about me, it was about us.
WoW perfected, and plays on the greed, the arrogance and the base desires of players to be individually successful. YOUR achievements matter more then anyhting else.
I was honestly hoping they would focus more on "Horde Vs. Alliance" and harness the sides against each in a way that mattered. Obviously that was a pipe dream. They have perfected the art of Greed in an MMO and well...
That's just not something I am willing to spend time, effort or money on. I merely ask why anyone else would waste their time. So ya, I'll be playing WAR, and thank GOODNESS they aren't about the individual.
Fuzzy, This thread was posted about why play the expansion and you are complaining about there being no world objectives and lack of PvP. You do know that Blizzard is adding in a world PvP zone with destructable environment, world objectives, seige engines/vehicles, air combat, new rewards systems, new incentives to world PvP, etc?
I don't know all the details, but it sounds like they are doing the exact thing you are screaming that they don't do. The complete details I don't know first hand, but will tell all I can when I get there in beta. For a PvE centric game it sure sounds like they are adding in lots of good PvP elements.
Also a side note, way more than a fraction of players get to see high end raids in WoW. Raid progression isn't very different in WoW than it was in EQ as far as how guilds take their time advancing.
Actually they merely added a new PVP grind that doesn't matter, you miss the point.
The GAME has no point beyond your personal gain of gear. Many of us were hoping for more then that.
Fuzzy, This thread was posted about why play the expansion and you are complaining about there being no world objectives and lack of PvP. You do know that Blizzard is adding in a world PvP zone with destructable environment, world objectives, seige engines/vehicles, air combat, new rewards systems, new incentives to world PvP, etc? I don't know all the details, but it sounds like they are doing the exact thing you are screaming that they don't do. The complete details I don't know first hand, but will tell all I can when I get there in beta. For a PvE centric game it sure sounds like they are adding in lots of good PvP elements. Also a side note, way more than a fraction of players get to see high end raids in WoW. Raid progression isn't very different in WoW than it was in EQ as far as how guilds take their time advancing.
Daff,
OP posted: "Bah and humbug to all that! I know, the PVP!!! Wait, this is WoW. WoW + PVP = dull, boring and pointless."
They are adding a PvP zone, but only after 4 years which is a little late and only as a reactionary measure to WAR.
As for the PvP aspect, I was responding to this line the OPs original post and agreeing with him. The problem with the new zone will be that its gear centric again so people will just grind the gear and then not play it, after which they will add new gear and the cycle continues.
Hopefully, it won't be like that but with blizz track record on item-based PvP it probably will. Again it's hard to restructure wow because it has been so item-centric and grind for so long so to make a PvP zone that actually means something besides gear is going to be really hard, but who knows maybe they will surprise us and add some PvP objectives that matter beyond gear and PvE.
As for the side note, I hope that's true, it would be sad if the numbers of 1% and 2% the other poster put up were true lmao.
Again, what game isn't item centric and on top of that offers PvP? I think you are yet again singling out one game amongst the pack. You say people will get their gear and never return? There are still hundred and hundreds of Arathi Basin, Alterac Vally and War Song Gultch games going every day. It isn't like it is taking people years and years to get the gear there is it? Despite your personal dislike, many do enjoy the PvP as noted by the popularity of PvP servers and such.
As for Warhammer, yes! Competition will be a good thing as Blizzard will finally have someone to put pressure on the gaming market. Kudos to both companies if Warhammer doesn't flop like most games the last four years. I don't blame Blizzard for taking their time considering they are top dog and for 4 years. Why rush to make something that may or may not work. Part of Blizzard [not WoW] successful strategy is they take their time to ensure a completed product. It isn't like you can just slap some super complex PvP system on the top of a PvE game and have it turn out awesome. Look at EQ2/Vanguard and see how that turned out.
Like I said DAOC pre-toa wasn't item centric. I liked that model much more where one can PvP and not worry about gear. I'm not singling it out, just talking about it as one of many. Many got burnt out of Pvp and quit. You're telling me you know no friends who got bored of WoW PvP and quit?
I know a ton of PvPers who got bored with the sparse selection of BGs, the death of world PvP and lack of world PvP objectives in end game wow. These hundreds of games you talk about is fine but its because of lack of options in the MMO genre right now. I'm sure some still enjoy the same BGs over and over but again many don't.
Hopefully, WAR will offer a good alternative for MMO PvP. However much time blizzard has taken, 4 BGs and arena in 4 years is way too little content.
Basically the problem with almost all PVE games is that they are gear centric. Wow is largely a PVE. Unless the game is nothing but people enjoing killing mobs and bosses for nothing that is bascially what a PVE game is. Those games attract people that like to quest and get a shiny new sword or piece of armor or something. With out a reward why go out and kill it. So the op is right in one regard it is a grind for gear fest. All expansions will be geared for just that. WoW success has been that its masted that part of an mmo. PVE rewards and tons of instances and raids which some will never see even after the expansion comes out.
PVP then has to fit within this context of a gear/reward pve system. Wow can't just wake up and become RvR the next day. Sure they could have released new battlegrounds. That is a legitimate critique. In the end though PVP has no true meaning unless it is put in a strategic sense. Meaning RvR type of mmo. The ultimate goal of conquering your opponent is capturing his lands. That type of competition is about the only thing that in "my opinion" make killing my opponent worth wild if I am not going to get some type of reward like gear. Loot of some sort is still always expected. So in some since its still a grind. Kill your opponent for some reason or another. Then repeat the killing.
WoW is a PVE game and if it goes to far into the PVP side it will no doubt turn off many of the PVEers would are just wanting to grind for gear. Not wanting to walk into a zone where they have to quest and get ganked or killed a billion times. Or be forced to have to PVP. Of course if you don't like that don't sign up to a PVP server. I however don't mind the dangers but still Wow because of its large base of players no matter what it does is going to get complaints from one side or the other has to walk a line between the two concepts.
Sure there are things I wish WoW would done in the expansion. Wish they done some things sooner. Wish for a whole ton of things. If one wants true pvp with a point they should try WAR or another RVR. Which I am going to do, but still play Wow. Ugh sorry for babbling on.
I never played DAoC, except the free trial, but can someone tell me howmuch PVP content was added to that game in it's life cycle? I know it's called RvR and there were keeps to fight over, that's it. I would like to know some numbers about that, also the benefits.
DAOC started off as a PvP centric game with the PvE portion of the game very unfinshed at launch. I'm only familiar with the earlier parts of the games life, but they added level bracketed battlegrounds, relic keeps with artifacts to fight over, and dungeons that were controlled by outcome of some PvP events or had PvP in them . Stuff like that. I'm sure someone else could do a much better job describing the actual changes.
The PvE in the game has always been problematic and often clashed directly with the PvPness of the game.
I think I see what you are getting at and I suspect you are correct.
Yada yada yada yada. What's the matter. Wifey so into wow you aren't getting any? This: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=38633#modelviewer is one reason I'll be getting the expansion. The theme including item art is much better than TBC.
Yeah we can expect more of these troll posts as war looms closer to release. It's only a matter of time. Once war releases satifaction will belong to the blizzard fans.
Yada yada yada yada. What's the matter. Wifey so into wow you aren't getting any? This: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=38633#modelviewer is one reason I'll be getting the expansion. The theme including item art is much better than TBC. Yeah we can expect more of these troll posts as war looms closer to release. It's only a matter of time. Once war releases satifaction will belong to the blizzard fans.
How is my thread a troll thread? I've stuck around, answered questions and debated the issue without attacking people. Is that not the purpose of a forum? To discuss issues of mutual interest?
Yada yada yada yada. What's the matter. Wifey so into wow you aren't getting any? This: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=38633#modelviewer is one reason I'll be getting the expansion. The theme including item art is much better than TBC. Yeah we can expect more of these troll posts as war looms closer to release. It's only a matter of time. Once war releases satifaction will belong to the blizzard fans.
How is my thread a troll thread? I've stuck around, answered questions and debated the issue without attacking people. Is that not the purpose of a forum? To discuss issues of mutual interest?
It looked more like an anti-wow rant to me which hey I support your right to rant but let's call it what it was... very trolling. If you want to start discussing then let's start by letting us know which upcoming games you think are going to do everything wow hasn't and how you think they'll accomplish this.
I don't think it was trolling. He had valid concerns and stated his opinions in a logical and polite manner. This is the whole point of a public forum? Why is he trolling?
This is an small example of what he was trying to say, here are the new hair styles what a joke. http://deathknight.info/2008/08/new-hairstyles-datamined/ All they did was take the hair from the other races only about 7 new styles lol. For a company that makes all this money they sure don't have the best and brightest working there, and watch the new dances will be done the same way as well. When they went from wow to tbc all the mobs toke steroids. They all got bigger, guess what in wotlk they got even bigger. So i guess bigger is better LOL. It's the same old thing in a new shell,to get more epics, epics that come so freely now no effort sign up for bg and ping you are on your way to getting your new shinny epics. As for me i don't hate the game i just out grew it.
The man speaks the truth.
Taking hairstyles from other races and transplanting them is most cheap ass thing I've ever seen, lol.
If they have done that with the dances as well then it's shameful tbh.
I decided i was not gonna play wotlk when I saw that most of the models were exactly the same as existing monster models with a slightly different colour, same as TBC.
Considering how much money Blizzard makes it's shocking how little effort they put into a expansion that's taken 2 years.
I mean, how many man hours does it take to make a few new zones and dungeons when your using existing models and scenery?
They obviously do them on the cheap and then charge people nearly the same as a brand new game.
Comments
I think the problem here is that you are looking at it the wrong way. Instead of saying "hey, they are adding all this content and in the end these are the rewards" you are looking at it like "these are all the rewards I want and this is all the stuff I HAVE TO DO in order to get it.
To me it's just your point of reference that seems to be getting in your way.
This seems to be a large downfall of WoW in that there are players who are more concerned with rewards and less about just playing. I hear about all these grinds but to be honest none of it seems to really bother me as I just log in for a bit, play a small bit and log off. I have my fun and move on.
But many WoW players have become so enamored of the rewards and making sure that they have all the highest rewards at all times that they have skewed their game play and have created a horrible treadmill for themselves which seems to have created some self fullfilling prophecy of doom.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
QFT. Why do you keep playing a game you are bored with ? Cant find something to keep you entertain elsewhere ?
"Better" PVP won't be enough and shouldn't be enough, what we should hope and ask for is better PVP AND better PVE.
You examples as you put them consisted of a PvP centric game that had to remove PvE content due the it being widely considered as one of the worst grinds ever, another PvP centric game that is closing down in the next 48 hours due to many reasons and a game that is more like diablo online with arenas than an MMO.
So when you make a comment that WoW as if it is different than just about every other MMO, those aren't very convincing examples.
I completely agree with you that there are a lack of options in the genre right now and that is why WoW is so successful. The PvP while not massive is better than just about any other games right now, as well as the PvE. WoW is introducing more/better world objective PvP with some actual innovations, but it is still a game that offers more options than just one like so many one trick pony games. I don't expect WoW to turn into some PvP focused game anytime soon though. Likewise I don't expect some PvP based game to offer impressive PvE, but will be surprised if they do.
The one thing I think we essentially differ on is that you feel blizzard "makes" you do something. I do the things I enjoy in a game and stop them when they are no longer fun. I could care less about the rewards if the activities are not enjoyable, I do something else. Thats why I think WoW has a good model, it offers so many things to do. You seem to look at the end game options as if they are some chore you must endure to get whatever satisfaction is at the end of work.
You examples as you put them consisted of a PvP centric game that had to remove PvE content due the it being widely considered as one of the worst grinds ever, another PvP centric game that is closing down in the next 48 hours due to many reasons and a game that is more like diablo online with arenas than an MMO.
So when you make a comment that WoW as if it is different than just about every other MMO, those aren't very convincing examples.
I completely agree with you that there are a lack of options in the genre right now and that is why WoW is so successful. The PvP while not massive is better than just about any other games right now, as well as the PvE. WoW is introducing more/better world objective PvP with some actual innovations, but it is still a game that offers more options than just one like so many one trick pony games. I don't expect WoW to turn into some PvP focused game anytime soon though. Likewise I don't expect some PvP based game to offer impressive PvE, but will be surprised if they do.
The one thing I think we essentially differ on is that you feel blizzard "makes" you do something. I do the things I enjoy in a game and stop them when they are no longer fun. I could care less about the rewards if the activities are not enjoyable, I do something else. Thats why I think WoW has a good model, it offers so many things to do. You seem to look at the end game options as if they are some chore you must endure to get whatever satisfaction is at the end of work.
Pre-toa daoc is still valid a example which did very well, a lot of pve content was only added post toa. Fury was touted as an MMO be developers and is on the left column of this website in "Released Games" in MMORPG. If you don't consider it an MMO take it up with MMORPG.com to remove it from the list. I never said WoW was different from just about every other MMOs anywhere? Stop making stuff up.
Just as you said, WoW is a PvE centric game with limited PvP options and it is what it is. A mainly PvE game.
Thing are only fun when they are not repeated a gajillion times. Playing the same 4 BGs and arenas so many times to me gets boring. I'm a PvPer, so I only look at the PvP aspects. There are some like me who like PvP more than PvE.
End-game options are not supposed to be a chore, but when PvP is small scale, repetitive, instanced and gear-centric with lack of options it gets tiring and people quit. Bliz realised they needed more PvP content and is adding a new PvP zone but it will probably be gear-centric, 'loot and scoot' affair too little too late for the PvPers.
Even in PvE, some people enjoy grinding for rep repeatedly or doing the same heroic dungeon over and over. Others don't that's why they quit.
What is it with all the nerd rage today.
If you enjoy it then its just called progressing through the game.
If you dont then its called "grind."
So if you dont like it um don't play.
Quit whining about a game you dont even like.
What do you expect them to do, just give you a full set of level 80 purples?
What do you do in every other game you play? Do you not grind? Of course you grind.
Bottom line is alot of ppl have been playing for 4+ years and they're burned out.
Nerd rage over nerd rage is funny.
It's entirely possible, if the new game fails to evolve and instead just layers more of the same on with no meaning.
Yes.
But only when we hit Xpansion #2. First expansion is always a chance to get in stuff that couldn't/wouldn't make release and to tidy up things.
Expansion Pack 2 is where a dev team is judged. Is the game enhanced, altered in a positive way or just more of the same?
Which game has ever evolved?
{ Mod Edit }
First off there is no video game that you play for your whole life.
Video games are content, like movies. You pop it in, you play it, you toss the disk in the trash. Sometimes you can go back and watch it again, but eventually you've seen Terminator 2 like 800 times.
I'm not tired of WoW yet, so I will keep playing it.
When it stops being fun, stop playing.
It's entirely possible, if the new game fails to evolve and instead just layers more of the same on with no meaning.
Yes.
But only when we hit Xpansion #2. First expansion is always a chance to get in stuff that couldn't/wouldn't make release and to tidy up things.
Expansion Pack 2 is where a dev team is judged. Is the game enhanced, altered in a positive way or just more of the same?
Which game has ever evolved?
{ Mod Edit }
First off there is no video game that you play for your whole life.
Video games are content, like movies. You pop it in, you play it, you toss the disk in the trash. Sometimes you can go back and watch it again, but eventually you've seen Terminator 2 like 800 times.
I'm not tired of WoW yet, so I will keep playing it.
When it stops being fun, stop playing.
Well, actually uncle who's now like 40+ has played pac-man and still does for most of his life. Now he's playing some weird new version of it so it's entirely possible.
I think its possible for a game to evolve. WoW for instance has areas, instances, BG, arena, rep grinds and abilities not available in release. It has evolved to be a game with more content and the grahics will "evolve" in the next expansion as well.
Yeah, when a game stops being fun its time to stop playing. Some people just cling on cos they have "too much invested" even when they are not having fun anymore. That's just kinda sad
Pre-toa daoc was nowhere as grindy as wow.
"You mean, WoW and every other MMO?:"
I didn't put the blame on WoW just the fact that there is grind in it. I meant WoW had it, I didn't make a sweeping statement that every MMO had it. WoW has more grind than pre-toa daoc for sure. I managed to get through daoc pretty much without any grinding whatsoever after I max leveled. That's definitely less "grindy" than having to farm rep or instances. Even though you didn't consider fury an mmo, it was and did not have as much grind.
"Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now"
DAOC classic servers definitely have less grind than WoW.
Once again reading comprehension. I never said WoW caused the whole genre's problems, merely that it followed suit. It does disguise the grind better than most but it's still there.
I'm saying MMO's as a whole need to focus less on grind and extend true content with less repetition, and the fact that the a whole lot of past effort is being totally ignored after every xpac hits.
What's sad is the same 4 BGs and arena in PvP that concerns me. They just upgrade the gear and make you grind again the same PvP content. There is a lack of options out there right now, but there is a large void to fill for PvP. That's why so many wanted to try AOC, they wanted better PvP among other things. If a game can come and fill that void it will pull a large demographic of WoW away. At least you admit WoW PvP is not massive. Another problem is it is all instanced, with no endgame world objectives other than PvE driven ones.
{ Mod Edit }
Pray tell, what do you do in DaoC at max level, wise guy?
What is there besides : more content vs repetition?
Wait I know. PvP.
That is the same answer every game has to "not enough content" when you hit max level you fight other players and the "content never ends."
Dont even mention Eve, Eve doesnt HAVE any content.
If Blizz is guilty of anything they're guilty of being TOO good, the instances they gave us were so well done, we did them all a hundred times and wanted more.
But they dont have the capacity to give us more content that fast.
The whole basis of raiding is to see the next content, but you also need the gear to progress, you're not getting the gear for its own sake, its just a tool to get to the next area.
So when you hit level 71 and replace purple with green, big deal.
You didnt get the purple because its purple, you got it to see the inside of Black Temple.
Only like %1 of the playerbase will ever see Mt Hyjal or Black Temple.
Only like %2 of the playerbase will ever see SSC.
It's not about purples, it's about seeing more content.
Pre-toa daoc was nowhere as grindy as wow.
"You mean, WoW and every other MMO?:"
I didn't put the blame on WoW just the fact that there is grind in it. I meant WoW had it, I didn't make a sweeping statement that every MMO had it. WoW has more grind than pre-toa daoc for sure. I managed to get through daoc pretty much without any grinding whatsoever after I max leveled. That's definitely less "grindy" than having to farm rep or instances. Even though you didn't consider fury an mmo, it was and did not have as much grind.
"Personally I think WoW is about the least grind centric fantasy game on the market right now"
DAOC classic servers definitely have less grind than WoW.
Once again reading comprehension. I never said WoW caused the whole genre's problems, merely that it followed suit. It does disguise the grind better than most but it's still there.
I'm saying MMO's as a whole need to focus less on grind and extend true content with less repetition, and the fact that the a whole lot of past effort is being totally ignored after every xpac hits.
What's sad is the same 4 BGs and arena in PvP that concerns me. They just upgrade the gear and make you grind again the same PvP content. There is a lack of options out there right now, but there is a large void to fill for PvP. That's why so many wanted to try AOC, they wanted better PvP among other things. If a game can come and fill that void it will pull a large demographic of WoW away. At least you admit WoW PvP is not massive. Another problem is it is all instanced, with no endgame world objectives other than PvE driven ones.
{ Mod Edit }
Pray tell, what do you do in DaoC at max level, wise guy?
What is there besides : more content vs repetition?
Wait I know. PvP.
That is the same answer every game has to "not enough content" when you hit max level you fight other players and the "content never ends."
Dont even mention Eve, Eve doesnt HAVE any content.
If Blizz is guilty of anything they're guilty of being TOO good, the instances they gave us were so well done, we did them all a hundred times and wanted more.
But they dont have the capacity to give us more content that fast.
The whole basis of raiding is to see the next content, but you also need the gear to progress, you're not getting the gear for its own sake, its just a tool to get to the next area.
So when you hit level 71 and replace purple with green, big deal.
You didnt get the purple because its purple, you got it to see the inside of Black Temple.
Only like %1 of the playerbase will ever see Mt Hyjal or Black Temple.
Only like %2 of the playerbase will ever see SSC.
It's not about purples, it's about seeing more content.
Yeah exactly PvP and RvR at max level was tons of fun at least it was massive and not all instanced and item-centric.
You can have more PvP content. Why not, just add it like you would PvE content. More world objectives and quests etc. The problem is WoW hasn't got any of that progression.
I never had a problem with their PvE instances, just lack of PvP content. Getting gear to get to the next area doesn't apply in PvP. They make you play the same 4 BGs and arenas, don't add anything and just put in new gear every cycle. I don't want to see more PvE content, I want to PvP and see more of that content which is.... non-existent. Which is the main problem, the lack of world PvP objectives and content.
If in every xpac they made PvEr's play the Naxx over and over again for upgraded loot how would you feel? Well playing the same BGs over and over is the same for PvPers. It's somewhat better because it against players but even then the content get old after a while. You probably don't have to add PvP content as fast as PvE content but seriously 4 BG and arenas in 4 years vs how many PvE instances in TBC alone?
On a side note....so it's ok that 1% and 2% of players see MH/BT and SSC respectively? LMAO. Like I said if you are having fun with the raiding that's fine, go have fun. If you on the other hand like the OP feel that your effort was for nothing because it gets replaced every xpac then you have an issue. To each his own.
You have to respect people opinions and not fling derogatory terms around like "on drugs", "nerd rage" and "wise guy" and debate stuff in a more mature way.
Fuzzy,
This thread was posted about why play the expansion and you are complaining about there being no world objectives and lack of PvP.
You do know that Blizzard is adding in a world PvP zone with destructable environment, world objectives, seige engines/vehicles, air combat, new rewards systems, new incentives to world PvP, etc?
I don't know all the details, but it sounds like they are doing the exact thing you are screaming that they don't do. The complete details I don't know first hand, but will tell all I can when I get there in beta. For a PvE centric game it sure sounds like they are adding in lots of good PvP elements.
Also a side note, way more than a fraction of players get to see high end raids in WoW. Raid progression isn't very different in WoW than it was in EQ as far as how guilds take their time advancing.
The thing about DAoC was that you went out, and mattered! You didn't matter for yourself, and your gear. you mattered for your REALM! Your actions helped you and your buds WIN something. Sure it wasn't permanant, yes we all desired greatly to storm the enemy capital and teach those thugs from Midgard the error of messing with Albion...
But the thing is, I never felt bored doing it. I never had to log in, group up in the big raid, get everyone sorted, listen to the same twerp repeat the same instructions on "how to do this encounter" and how we should really work harder to beat this boss this time. There were no DKP fights, no worries about loot. You just went out with your friends, and had fun.
We went out, we killed, we conquered... and sometimes we got our butts handed to us. It was NEVER the same fight. Sure the area was the same, sure the keep was the same... but instead of a bunch of Melee fighters with healers this tiem it was healers and AoE casters! Damn and we had little ranged support! it was ALWAYS a new encounter. Or we had the keep and Midgard would bring in the heavy hitters and we'd fight for almost an hour, back and forth till either we were over run or they gave up.
It MATTERED to the REALM. It wasn't about me, it was about us.
WoW perfected, and plays on the greed, the arrogance and the base desires of players to be individually successful. YOUR achievements matter more then anyhting else.
I was honestly hoping they would focus more on "Horde Vs. Alliance" and harness the sides against each in a way that mattered. Obviously that was a pipe dream. They have perfected the art of Greed in an MMO and well...
That's just not something I am willing to spend time, effort or money on. I merely ask why anyone else would waste their time. So ya, I'll be playing WAR, and thank GOODNESS they aren't about the individual.
Always change your signature.
Actually they merely added a new PVP grind that doesn't matter, you miss the point.
The GAME has no point beyond your personal gain of gear. Many of us were hoping for more then that.
Always change your signature.
Daff,
OP posted: "Bah and humbug to all that! I know, the PVP!!! Wait, this is WoW. WoW + PVP = dull, boring and pointless."
They are adding a PvP zone, but only after 4 years which is a little late and only as a reactionary measure to WAR.
As for the PvP aspect, I was responding to this line the OPs original post and agreeing with him. The problem with the new zone will be that its gear centric again so people will just grind the gear and then not play it, after which they will add new gear and the cycle continues.
Hopefully, it won't be like that but with blizz track record on item-based PvP it probably will. Again it's hard to restructure wow because it has been so item-centric and grind for so long so to make a PvP zone that actually means something besides gear is going to be really hard, but who knows maybe they will surprise us and add some PvP objectives that matter beyond gear and PvE.
As for the side note, I hope that's true, it would be sad if the numbers of 1% and 2% the other poster put up were true lmao.
Again, what game isn't item centric and on top of that offers PvP? I think you are yet again singling out one game amongst the pack. You say people will get their gear and never return? There are still hundred and hundreds of Arathi Basin, Alterac Vally and War Song Gultch games going every day. It isn't like it is taking people years and years to get the gear there is it? Despite your personal dislike, many do enjoy the PvP as noted by the popularity of PvP servers and such.
As for Warhammer, yes! Competition will be a good thing as Blizzard will finally have someone to put pressure on the gaming market. Kudos to both companies if Warhammer doesn't flop like most games the last four years. I don't blame Blizzard for taking their time considering they are top dog and for 4 years. Why rush to make something that may or may not work. Part of Blizzard [not WoW] successful strategy is they take their time to ensure a completed product. It isn't like you can just slap some super complex PvP system on the top of a PvE game and have it turn out awesome. Look at EQ2/Vanguard and see how that turned out.
Like I said DAOC pre-toa wasn't item centric. I liked that model much more where one can PvP and not worry about gear. I'm not singling it out, just talking about it as one of many. Many got burnt out of Pvp and quit. You're telling me you know no friends who got bored of WoW PvP and quit?
I know a ton of PvPers who got bored with the sparse selection of BGs, the death of world PvP and lack of world PvP objectives in end game wow. These hundreds of games you talk about is fine but its because of lack of options in the MMO genre right now. I'm sure some still enjoy the same BGs over and over but again many don't.
Hopefully, WAR will offer a good alternative for MMO PvP. However much time blizzard has taken, 4 BGs and arena in 4 years is way too little content.
I never played DAoC, except the free trial, but can someone tell me howmuch PVP content was added to that game in it's life cycle?
I know it's called RvR and there were keeps to fight over, that's it. I would like to know some numbers about that, also the benefits.
Basically the problem with almost all PVE games is that they are gear centric. Wow is largely a PVE. Unless the game is nothing but people enjoing killing mobs and bosses for nothing that is bascially what a PVE game is. Those games attract people that like to quest and get a shiny new sword or piece of armor or something. With out a reward why go out and kill it. So the op is right in one regard it is a grind for gear fest. All expansions will be geared for just that. WoW success has been that its masted that part of an mmo. PVE rewards and tons of instances and raids which some will never see even after the expansion comes out.
PVP then has to fit within this context of a gear/reward pve system. Wow can't just wake up and become RvR the next day. Sure they could have released new battlegrounds. That is a legitimate critique. In the end though PVP has no true meaning unless it is put in a strategic sense. Meaning RvR type of mmo. The ultimate goal of conquering your opponent is capturing his lands. That type of competition is about the only thing that in "my opinion" make killing my opponent worth wild if I am not going to get some type of reward like gear. Loot of some sort is still always expected. So in some since its still a grind. Kill your opponent for some reason or another. Then repeat the killing.
WoW is a PVE game and if it goes to far into the PVP side it will no doubt turn off many of the PVEers would are just wanting to grind for gear. Not wanting to walk into a zone where they have to quest and get ganked or killed a billion times. Or be forced to have to PVP. Of course if you don't like that don't sign up to a PVP server. I however don't mind the dangers but still Wow because of its large base of players no matter what it does is going to get complaints from one side or the other has to walk a line between the two concepts.
Sure there are things I wish WoW would done in the expansion. Wish they done some things sooner. Wish for a whole ton of things. If one wants true pvp with a point they should try WAR or another RVR. Which I am going to do, but still play Wow. Ugh sorry for babbling on.
DAOC started off as a PvP centric game with the PvE portion of the game very unfinshed at launch. I'm only familiar with the earlier parts of the games life, but they added level bracketed battlegrounds, relic keeps with artifacts to fight over, and dungeons that were controlled by outcome of some PvP events or had PvP in them
. Stuff like that. I'm sure someone else could do a much better job describing the actual changes.
The PvE in the game has always been problematic and often clashed directly with the PvPness of the game.
I think I see what you are getting at and I suspect you are correct.
Yada yada yada yada. What's the matter. Wifey so into wow you aren't getting any? This: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=38633#modelviewer is one reason I'll be getting the expansion. The theme including item art is much better than TBC.
Yeah we can expect more of these troll posts as war looms closer to release. It's only a matter of time. Once war releases satifaction will belong to the blizzard fans.
How is my thread a troll thread? I've stuck around, answered questions and debated the issue without attacking people. Is that not the purpose of a forum? To discuss issues of mutual interest?
Always change your signature.
How is my thread a troll thread? I've stuck around, answered questions and debated the issue without attacking people. Is that not the purpose of a forum? To discuss issues of mutual interest?
It looked more like an anti-wow rant to me which hey I support your right to rant but let's call it what it was... very trolling. If you want to start discussing then let's start by letting us know which upcoming games you think are going to do everything wow hasn't and how you think they'll accomplish this.
I don't think it was trolling. He had valid concerns and stated his opinions in a logical and polite manner. This is the whole point of a public forum? Why is he trolling?
The man speaks the truth.
Taking hairstyles from other races and transplanting them is most cheap ass thing I've ever seen, lol.
If they have done that with the dances as well then it's shameful tbh.
I decided i was not gonna play wotlk when I saw that most of the models were exactly the same as existing monster models with a slightly different colour, same as TBC.
Considering how much money Blizzard makes it's shocking how little effort they put into a expansion that's taken 2 years.
I mean, how many man hours does it take to make a few new zones and dungeons when your using existing models and scenery?
They obviously do them on the cheap and then charge people nearly the same as a brand new game.