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It's been what, a week since the last invasion?

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  • FishermageFishermage Member Posts: 7,562

    people are not reading this whole conversation now, and are thinking that I think people who don't leave a country they disagree with are evil.

    No, I am saying that whole line of reasoning is crap reasoning. People who pay for evil are not evil. Everyone pays for evil every day of their lives -- we all sanction far greater evil than SOE on a daily basis in this sinful world. That is my point.

    It is how we treat one another as individuals within that matrix (the matrix of an inherently sinful world that we must be a part of) that defines us. Like hating people who play a game made by company we may think is evil, now that's downright evil. It's the hate not the money involved.

    People need to stop hating if they want to change anything. Maybe the hate here has made you fail. Maybe we should try and work for change with love in our hearts not hate? Just a thought.

  • ObeeObee Member Posts: 1,550
    Originally posted by Fishermage


     

    Originally posted by Obee


    Originally posted by Fishermage
     
     





    Originally posted by Obee




    Originally posted by Fishermage

     

     

     
     

     
    Originally posted by Obee



     
    Originally posted by Fishermage

     

     



     
     

     

     

     

     



    Oh no, don't get me wrong; I know I do this -- I know I am helping and enabling. That wasn't my point.

     

    What I am saying is I am not ashamed of it; just as I am not ashamed of funding the evil that my government does, that other businesses do, and all the evil in the world I have helped out by giving my money to people. It's all part of living in a sinful world.

     

     

     

     

     

     





     

    I'm going to take a bit of issue with that part of your statement.  The reason equating paying taxes to paying SOE is a completely false comparison is that if you cancel your SWG account, people with guns aren't going to show up at your doorstep and attempt to coerce you to fork out the money.  Even if you feel paying taxes is enabling your government to do evil, there is a threat of force behind it.

    Just a quick question to put things in perspective:

    Would you still be subscribed to SWG if it wasn't based on Star Wars?

     

     

     

     





    You are in this country voluntarily. Anyone can leave America. There is on;y a threat of force if you choose to stay here, which is just as much your choice as anything else. Now, if we lived in the old Soviet Union, where people were coerced into staying -- sure. But not here.

     

    We are Americans BY CHOICE, not by force. Thus the analogy is perfect.

    EDIT: I have said many times I probably would not be subscribed if was Star Wars; in fact, that is the only reason the game still exists. I think everyone knows this.

     

     





     

    What countries don't collect taxes through the threat of force?  That isn't something that is easy to escape.  It certianly isn't as simple as packing your bags and going somewhere else.  The analogy doesn't hold up, specially considering that the USA is much less oppressive towards its citizens than any other place on Earth (what has been going on in Canada and England lately is scary).

    As to the the reason you still subscrib, it is what I thought.  That is the only reason I can think of that isn't extremely unethical, considering the development history of the game.  Frankly, the whole "It's Star Wars" is the only reason I can understand.

     





    Oh, so if it is EASY to not pay for evil, you are evil, and if it is INCONVENIENT -- you are good?

     

    Please review how we got here more carefully.





     

    How did I claim it was easy not to pay for evil?  I said it was damned hard not to, as far as government is concerned.  It isn't just inconvenient, it is damned near impossible.  There is the whole lesser of evils thing, which I consider the US to be, but there is no chance of SOE being a lesser evil among MMO companies.

     




    So if it is damned near impossible to NOT pay for evil, you are good, but if it is easy to not pay for evil, you are evil? It is the EASE that makes it evil, not the thing itself?

     

     

    I think the who inclusion of "good" and "evil" is really getting the discussion off track.  I only objected to the idea that paying taxes is the same as subscribing to SWG, as far as analogies is concerned.  Paying taxes is compulsory, no matter where you reside.  Subscribing to an MMO is not.

     

  • FishermageFishermage Member Posts: 7,562


    Originally posted by Obee
    Originally posted by Fishermage  

    Originally posted by Obee

    Originally posted by Fishermage
     
     Originally posted by Obee
    Originally posted by Fishermage
     
     
     
     

     
    Originally posted by Obee
     
    Originally posted by Fishermage
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    Oh no, don't get me wrong; I know I do this -- I know I am helping and enabling. That wasn't my point.
     
    What I am saying is I am not ashamed of it; just as I am not ashamed of funding the evil that my government does, that other businesses do, and all the evil in the world I have helped out by giving my money to people. It's all part of living in a sinful world.
     
     
     
     
     
     



     
    I'm going to take a bit of issue with that part of your statement.  The reason equating paying taxes to paying SOE is a completely false comparison is that if you cancel your SWG account, people with guns aren't going to show up at your doorstep and attempt to coerce you to fork out the money.  Even if you feel paying taxes is enabling your government to do evil, there is a threat of force behind it.
    Just a quick question to put things in perspective:
    Would you still be subscribed to SWG if it wasn't based on Star Wars?
     
     
     
     



    You are in this country voluntarily. Anyone can leave America. There is on;y a threat of force if you choose to stay here, which is just as much your choice as anything else. Now, if we lived in the old Soviet Union, where people were coerced into staying -- sure. But not here.
     
    We are Americans BY CHOICE, not by force. Thus the analogy is perfect.
    EDIT: I have said many times I probably would not be subscribed if was Star Wars; in fact, that is the only reason the game still exists. I think everyone knows this.
     
     



     
    What countries don't collect taxes through the threat of force?  That isn't something that is easy to escape.  It certianly isn't as simple as packing your bags and going somewhere else.  The analogy doesn't hold up, specially considering that the USA is much less oppressive towards its citizens than any other place on Earth (what has been going on in Canada and England lately is scary).
    As to the the reason you still subscrib, it is what I thought.  That is the only reason I can think of that isn't extremely unethical, considering the development history of the game.  Frankly, the whole "It's Star Wars" is the only reason I can understand.
     



    Oh, so if it is EASY to not pay for evil, you are evil, and if it is INCONVENIENT -- you are good?
     
    Please review how we got here more carefully.



     
    How did I claim it was easy not to pay for evil?  I said it was damned hard not to, as far as government is concerned.  It isn't just inconvenient, it is damned near impossible.  There is the whole lesser of evils thing, which I consider the US to be, but there is no chance of SOE being a lesser evil among MMO companies.
     


    So if it is damned near impossible to NOT pay for evil, you are good, but if it is easy to not pay for evil, you are evil? It is the EASE that makes it evil, not the thing itself?
     


     
    I think the who inclusion of "good" and "evil" is really getting the discussion off track.  I only objected to the idea that paying taxes is the same as subscribing to SWG, as far as analogies is concerned.  Paying taxes is compulsory, no matter where you reside.  Subscribing to an MMO is not.
     

    If paying for evil makes you evil, everyone is evil, no matter where you reside. What brought this up was the idiotic notion that people who play are saying it is okay to lie and steal (which are evil). That they should be ashamed (one is ashamed of a MORAL BREACH; ie evil).

    The point is if it is evil to give sanction to evil; it is evil. There are tax resisters in jail now. Are we all evil; and they are the only moral ones? That is my point. The whole argument are crap. The analogy is taking the idea to its final conclusion; the compulsory nature of taxation matters not -- one should be willing to go to jail for one's principles -- to sanction evil is to sanction it, period. Again, coming from the reasoning I am arguing against.

    remember I don't believe in any of this. My point is this whole line of reasoning, this whole method to discerning what is moral, is crap. I am showing WHY it is crap with an extreme example.

  • FishermageFishermage Member Posts: 7,562

    anyway, I'm getting sleepy and now people are no longer reading the thread, and arguing against things that aren't really part of the substance of the argument.

    Oh well, people just can't hande analogies on EITHER side of this discussion.

    My suggestion to BOTH sides: hate not. Fight the good fight with love in your hearts -- lest you become as bad as the enemy you fight against.

    that is what I see happening here, on both sides. As someone who watches both sides carefully because he sympathizes with both sides, I can see what's going on, and it's not good.

    Love thy neighbor as thyself, the rest is details.

    Now I lay me down to sleep in a country that I feel is far from the least of evils; but rather, the greatest of goods within a world full of sin and glory that I and we all pay for every day, the moment we get out of bed and participate.

  • darkwondererdarkwonderer Member Posts: 42
    Originally posted by Fishermage


     

    Originally posted by darkwonderer

    You can not reason with passion. This is fundamentally flawed logic. For they are fundamentally different.

    Although you did an admirable job in trying.

     

    Since you didn't quote, it's impossible to know what you are referring to. But if you meant me...

    One can easily reason with passion. Passion is NON-rational, not IR-rational. The emotions one feels while one is reasoning is irrelevant to the reasoning itself. Some folks can't deal with it, others can. Einstein passionately LOVED physics, and if you read his reasoning, you will find they are full of passion.

    I LOVE reasoning, and do so passionately. Instead of making false platitudes, how about DEFENDING your case instead of making a bald-faced assertion.

    At any rate, I am not reasoning with passion, I am reasoning with reason. How are they fundamentally different?, in the careful context I have drawn? If it is evil to pay for evil; everyone is evil because everyone, to a greater or lesser extent, pays for evil.



     

  • ObeeObee Member Posts: 1,550
    Originally posted by Fishermage


     

    Originally posted by Obee


    Originally posted by Fishermage
     
     





    Originally posted by Obee




    Originally posted by Fishermage

     

     

     
     

     
    Originally posted by Obee



     
    Originally posted by Fishermage

     

     

     

     





     

    Originally posted by Obee

     
     



     

    Originally posted by Fishermage

     

     

     
     



     

     

     

     

     

     

     
     



    Oh no, don't get me wrong; I know I do this -- I know I am helping and enabling. That wasn't my point.

     

    What I am saying is I am not ashamed of it; just as I am not ashamed of funding the evil that my government does, that other businesses do, and all the evil in the world I have helped out by giving my money to people. It's all part of living in a sinful world.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     





     

    I'm going to take a bit of issue with that part of your statement.  The reason equating paying taxes to paying SOE is a completely false comparison is that if you cancel your SWG account, people with guns aren't going to show up at your doorstep and attempt to coerce you to fork out the money.  Even if you feel paying taxes is enabling your government to do evil, there is a threat of force behind it.

    Just a quick question to put things in perspective:

    Would you still be subscribed to SWG if it wasn't based on Star Wars?

     

     

     

     

     

     





    You are in this country voluntarily. Anyone can leave America. There is on;y a threat of force if you choose to stay here, which is just as much your choice as anything else. Now, if we lived in the old Soviet Union, where people were coerced into staying -- sure. But not here.

     

    We are Americans BY CHOICE, not by force. Thus the analogy is perfect.

    EDIT: I have said many times I probably would not be subscribed if was Star Wars; in fact, that is the only reason the game still exists. I think everyone knows this.

     

     

     

     





     

    What countries don't collect taxes through the threat of force?  That isn't something that is easy to escape.  It certianly isn't as simple as packing your bags and going somewhere else.  The analogy doesn't hold up, specially considering that the USA is much less oppressive towards its citizens than any other place on Earth (what has been going on in Canada and England lately is scary).

    As to the the reason you still subscrib, it is what I thought.  That is the only reason I can think of that isn't extremely unethical, considering the development history of the game.  Frankly, the whole "It's Star Wars" is the only reason I can understand.

     

     

     





    Oh, so if it is EASY to not pay for evil, you are evil, and if it is INCONVENIENT -- you are good?

     

    Please review how we got here more carefully.

     

     





     

    How did I claim it was easy not to pay for evil?  I said it was damned hard not to, as far as government is concerned.  It isn't just inconvenient, it is damned near impossible.  There is the whole lesser of evils thing, which I consider the US to be, but there is no chance of SOE being a lesser evil among MMO companies.

     





    So if it is damned near impossible to NOT pay for evil, you are good, but if it is easy to not pay for evil, you are evil? It is the EASE that makes it evil, not the thing itself?

     





     

    I think the who inclusion of "good" and "evil" is really getting the discussion off track.  I only objected to the idea that paying taxes is the same as subscribing to SWG, as far as analogies is concerned.  Paying taxes is compulsory, no matter where you reside.  Subscribing to an MMO is not.

     




    If paying for evil makes you evil, everyone is evil, no matter where you reside. What brought this up was the idiotic notion that people who play are saying it is okay to lie and steal (which are evil). That they should be ashamed (one is ashamed of a MORAL BREACH; ie evil).

     

    The point is if it is evil to give sanction to evil; it is evil. There are tax resisters in jail now. Are we all evil; and they are the only moral ones? That is my point. The whole argument are crap. The analogy is taking the idea to its final conclusion; the compulsory nature of taxation matters not -- one should be willing to go to jail for one's principles -- to sanction evil is to sanction it, period. Again, coming from the reasoning I am arguing against.

    remember I don't believe in any of this. My point is this whole line of reasoning, this whole method to discerning what is moral, is crap. I am showing WHY it is crap with an extreme example.

     

    Okay, taking away all the "good" and "evil" talk, do you think SOE would be more or less likely to do mini-NGEs to their other prodicts if everyone had quit SWG due to the NGE (or due to any of the random min-NGEs since)?  They have been making such changes to both EQ2 and Vanguard (especially Vanguard, which was intended to be an EQ style 'hardcore' MMO, that is becomming more and more a WoW style 'accessible' MMO).

    I don't hold the position that subscribing to SWG is giving approval to what SOE does.  I do however believe it make the folks at SOE more inclined to take such actions, since they have been shown that there are people who will accept such behavior.

    SOE is in need of significant changes.  I don't see those changes happening until enough of their customers tell them they won't accept such behavior.

     Edited to add:

    People who resist paying taxes go to jail.  What bad thing happenes to people who refuse to subscribe to SWG?  There is coersion involved when the government does it, with the threat of actual consequences, beyond the never followed through 'we might delete your character' you find from companies.  There is no threat of consequences from refusing to sibscribe to a game.  That is where the 'taxes = subscribing to SWG' comparison falls down.  If I was threatened with going to jail, or being shot, I might reconsider my non-subscription to SWG.

     

  • darkwondererdarkwonderer Member Posts: 42
    Originally posted by Fishermage


     

    Originally posted by darkwonderer

    You can not reason with passion. This is fundamentally flawed logic. For they are fundamentally different.

    Although you did an admirable job in trying.

     

    Since you didn't quote, it's impossible to know what you are referring to. But if you meant me...

    One can easily reason with passion. Passion is NON-rational, not IR-rational. The emotions one feels while one is reasoning is irrelevant to the reasoning itself. Some folks can't deal with it, others can. Einstein passionately LOVED physics, and if you read his reasoning, you will find they are full of passion.

    I LOVE reasoning, and do so passionately. Instead of making false platitudes, how about DEFENDING your case instead of making a bald-faced assertion.

    At any rate, I am not reasoning with passion, I am reasoning with reason. How are they fundamentally different?, in the careful context I have drawn? If it is evil to pay for evil; everyone is evil because everyone, to a greater or lesser extent, pays for evil.

     

     

    You are using reason against their passion (emotion). And passion(emotion) can be very ir-rational. People make insane assertions constantly just because they "feel" vehemently for their stance. The best you can hope to accomplish is to reduce their passion for the subject matter. Or, if you are really skilled (or they are not as passionate about their stance) you can sway the argument to one of reason. This is not the case in this instance.

    The reason they do not understand your argument is because they are passionate (full of emotion) about their feelings of the subject matter. It does not matter what you say.

    And the kind of passion for reasoning you are refering to is not the same I am. Your so called "love" for arguing does not equate to their blind hate of what this game (company) has done to them.. Emotional response is devoid of reason. And because of this can be very irrational, (as well as rational(thus making it non-rational)).

    Imagine the guy with a girl who everyone around him knows is wrong for him. They make their cases, but until he can seperate himself from the situation (become less emotionally involved) it matters little what they say. This is but one limited example of what I am saying.

    I was not insulting you. You simply misunderstood.  My point still stands. You cannot combat passion with reason. Merely try and make them less passionate or, from their point of view, they can try and sweep you up in their passion.

  • HastorHadronHastorHadron Member Posts: 187
    Originally posted by Obee

    Originally posted by Fishermage


     

    Originally posted by Obee


    Originally posted by Fishermage
     
     





    Originally posted by Obee




    Originally posted by Fishermage

     

     

     
     

     
    Originally posted by Obee



     
    Originally posted by Fishermage

     

     

     

     





     

    Originally posted by Obee

     
     



     

    Originally posted by Fishermage

     

     

     
     



     

     

     

     

     

     

     
     





     

     

     

     

     

     





     

    I

     

     

     

     

     







     

     

     





     



     

     

     





     





     













     








     

    Okay, taking away all the "good" and "evil" talk, do you think SOE would be more or less likely to do mini-NGEs to their other prodicts if everyone had quit SWG due to the NGE (or due to any of the random min-NGEs since)? 

     

    I apologize for the editing but the whole string of quotes was way too long for me. Here is what I think. The NGE did cripple SWG. I think that was enough to discourage others from even attempting another NGE on another game... that is, unless greed blinds them.

    Look if your friend got permanently disfigured and mauled by peeing on a Grizzly Bear's head, I would think that would convey the same message as if they had been killed.

    So at the end of the day, I do not think it would have changed anything if everyone quit, the vast majority did.

    Some hardheaded pride still exists, SOE still continues to miss out on all the revenue a classic server would generate. . . BUT they have not attempted another NGE to my knowledge on another game. So even if they do not admit it, it clear to those around them that did indeed get mauled by peeing on the Grizzlies head.

  • ArcheusCrossArcheusCross Member Posts: 793
    Originally posted by Tzimiscechi


    There are so many things that interest me here.
    Firstly: why do players of ANY game think they need to promote it? Isn't that SOE marketing's job? I mean I could understand someone trying to talk their friends in to playing, but this guy is suggesting that they coordinate to try to sell this to everyone.
    If you're going to seriously sell me something, you should oh I don't know, DEAL WITH MY CONCERNS AND LISTEN TO ME. This is something Sony simply won't do and they have proved it time and time and time again.
    Secondly: It's interesting that this poster FREELY ADMITS that the numbers of players were higher in the pre CU/CU times.
    Thirdly: It's interesting to me that these people who claim the NGE is so great can't get over the vet population leaving. The way they talk, the vets are just a "vocal minority" and it wasn't any big deal that these losers left....and yet two years later they're still mad at us, still trying to figure out how to coax us back, still upset that we won't play their stupid game. I guess the NGE isn't good enough to distract them from us. :)
    Lastly: If you like the NGE, then you'll love World of Warcrap. It's more interesting, more active, has a larger community and is less buggy. But don't take my word for it - It's what the Sony development team plays. :)
     

     

    Ha.. exactly.. pure gold.

    "Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria

    "The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci

  • ObeeObee Member Posts: 1,550
    Originally posted by HastorHadron

    Originally posted by Obee



     

    Okay, taking away all the "good" and "evil" talk, do you think SOE would be more or less likely to do mini-NGEs to their other prodicts if everyone had quit SWG due to the NGE (or due to any of the random min-NGEs since)? 

     

    I apologize for the editing but the whole string of quotes was way too long for me. Here is what I think. The NGE did cripple SWG. I think that was enough to discourage others from even attempting another NGE on another game... that is, unless greed blinds them.

    Look if your friend got permanently disfigured and mauled by peeing on a Grizzly Bear's head, I would think that would convey the same message as if they had been killed.

    So at the end of the day, I do not think it would have changed anything if everyone quit, the vast majority did.

    Some hardheaded pride still exists, SOE still continues to miss out on all the revenue a classic server would generate. . . BUT they have not attempted another NGE to my knowledge on another game. So even if they do not admit it, it clear to those around them that did indeed get mauled by peeing on the Grizzlies head.

     

    They did it to EQ2 (it is much more like WoW than it was three years ago) and they arein the process of doing it to Vanguard (adding in bonus XP and making the game generally easier to advance in).  Neither of those game were revamped all at once, but they were revamped (well, Vanguard is in the process).  The only thing SOE learned from the NGE is to not do the revamp all at once.

    Even Fishermage has complained about what he has called mini-NGEs that have been done to SWG since the Smed claimed that they had learned their lesson and would never do anything like it again..  He has called them out for not actually having learned anything from the NGE, more than once.

    The only lessons SOE learned from the fallout over the NGE have been the wrong ones.  SOE got mauled by peeing on the grizzly's head, but the lesson they took away was that they wouldn't have been mauled if they had pissed on the grizzly's head a little at a time, or had communicated to the grizzly that they were gong to piss on its head better.  They then called the grizzly an idiot and a conspiracy theorist, and implied that the only reason it got mad in the first place was because it didn't give being pissed on a chance.

     

     

  • swgtester1swgtester1 Member Posts: 85

    i look at it like this. if anyone gives $OE money to play the nge they are no better then those who stole the pre-cu from us.

    and i will use any tactic i can to run fanbois and fanbots off and to show people that we not the fanbois or the devs are in the right. and we are in the right we had our game stolen from us we had gotten conned by those who we gave money too and trusted.

    to anyone who went out and got swg back in 2003 and 2004 we all did pay $50 for that game and that is the game that it still should be.

    and any fanboi or fanbot who thinks he can tell me to get over it needs to go back to watching mtv and playing games on his xbox. we don't want fanbois or fanbots we want pre-cu swg back.

  • FishermageFishermage Member Posts: 7,562


    Originally posted by Obee
    Originally posted by Fishermage  

    Originally posted by Obee

    Originally posted by Fishermage
     
     Originally posted by Obee
    Originally posted by Fishermage
     
     
     
     

     
    Originally posted by Obee
     
    Originally posted by Fishermage
     
     
     
      
    Originally posted by Obee
     
     
     
    Originally posted by Fishermage
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    Oh no, don't get me wrong; I know I do this -- I know I am helping and enabling. That wasn't my point.
     
    What I am saying is I am not ashamed of it; just as I am not ashamed of funding the evil that my government does, that other businesses do, and all the evil in the world I have helped out by giving my money to people. It's all part of living in a sinful world.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     



     
    I'm going to take a bit of issue with that part of your statement.  The reason equating paying taxes to paying SOE is a completely false comparison is that if you cancel your SWG account, people with guns aren't going to show up at your doorstep and attempt to coerce you to fork out the money.  Even if you feel paying taxes is enabling your government to do evil, there is a threat of force behind it.
    Just a quick question to put things in perspective:
    Would you still be subscribed to SWG if it wasn't based on Star Wars?
     
     
     
     
     
     



    You are in this country voluntarily. Anyone can leave America. There is on;y a threat of force if you choose to stay here, which is just as much your choice as anything else. Now, if we lived in the old Soviet Union, where people were coerced into staying -- sure. But not here.
     
    We are Americans BY CHOICE, not by force. Thus the analogy is perfect.
    EDIT: I have said many times I probably would not be subscribed if was Star Wars; in fact, that is the only reason the game still exists. I think everyone knows this.
     
     
     
     



     
    What countries don't collect taxes through the threat of force?  That isn't something that is easy to escape.  It certianly isn't as simple as packing your bags and going somewhere else.  The analogy doesn't hold up, specially considering that the USA is much less oppressive towards its citizens than any other place on Earth (what has been going on in Canada and England lately is scary).
    As to the the reason you still subscrib, it is what I thought.  That is the only reason I can think of that isn't extremely unethical, considering the development history of the game.  Frankly, the whole "It's Star Wars" is the only reason I can understand.
     
     
     



    Oh, so if it is EASY to not pay for evil, you are evil, and if it is INCONVENIENT -- you are good?
     
    Please review how we got here more carefully.
     
     



     
    How did I claim it was easy not to pay for evil?  I said it was damned hard not to, as far as government is concerned.  It isn't just inconvenient, it is damned near impossible.  There is the whole lesser of evils thing, which I consider the US to be, but there is no chance of SOE being a lesser evil among MMO companies.
     



    So if it is damned near impossible to NOT pay for evil, you are good, but if it is easy to not pay for evil, you are evil? It is the EASE that makes it evil, not the thing itself?
     



     
    I think the who inclusion of "good" and "evil" is really getting the discussion off track.  I only objected to the idea that paying taxes is the same as subscribing to SWG, as far as analogies is concerned.  Paying taxes is compulsory, no matter where you reside.  Subscribing to an MMO is not.
     


    If paying for evil makes you evil, everyone is evil, no matter where you reside. What brought this up was the idiotic notion that people who play are saying it is okay to lie and steal (which are evil). That they should be ashamed (one is ashamed of a MORAL BREACH; ie evil).
     
    The point is if it is evil to give sanction to evil; it is evil. There are tax resisters in jail now. Are we all evil; and they are the only moral ones? That is my point. The whole argument are crap. The analogy is taking the idea to its final conclusion; the compulsory nature of taxation matters not -- one should be willing to go to jail for one's principles -- to sanction evil is to sanction it, period. Again, coming from the reasoning I am arguing against.
    remember I don't believe in any of this. My point is this whole line of reasoning, this whole method to discerning what is moral, is crap. I am showing WHY it is crap with an extreme example.


     
    Okay, taking away all the "good" and "evil" talk, do you think SOE would be more or less likely to do mini-NGEs to their other prodicts if everyone had quit SWG due to the NGE (or due to any of the random min-NGEs since)?  They have been making such changes to both EQ2 and Vanguard (especially Vanguard, which was intended to be an EQ style 'hardcore' MMO, that is becomming more and more a WoW style 'accessible' MMO).
    I don't hold the position that subscribing to SWG is giving approval to what SOE does.  I do however believe it make the folks at SOE more inclined to take such actions, since they have been shown that there are people who will accept such behavior.
    SOE is in need of significant changes.  I don't see those changes happening until enough of their customers tell them they won't accept such behavior.
     Edited to add:
    People who resist paying taxes go to jail.  What bad thing happenes to people who refuse to subscribe to SWG?  There is coersion involved when the government does it, with the threat of actual consequences, beyond the never followed through 'we might delete your character' you find from companies.  There is no threat of consequences from refusing to sibscribe to a game.  That is where the 'taxes = subscribing to SWG' comparison falls down.  If I was threatened with going to jail, or being shot, I might reconsider my non-subscription to SWG.
     

    WE can't go away from the good and evil talk, since that is all I am concerned with here. I was responding to a particular personal moral attack on the playerabase.

    If everyone had quit, the game would have been shut down, and there almost certainly would never have been a SWG MMO ever again.

    The fact that most quit, and the hardcore star wars fans remained even though the game still sucked is probably what has convinced the LA that it was the NGE that failed and a newer better star wars MMO done by a better company. We will all get wat we want hopefully in the future, and that will be due to both sides, regardless of the hatred spit at one another.

    Now, as to your edit, so, the consequences of actions determine one is good or evil? If you do evil, it is okay if the consequences are harsh?

    The analogy is perfect if the theory is absolute; I was dealing with an absolutist statement -- therefore, consequences should have no relevancve to the debate. If something is evil, it is evil, regardless of government threats or consequences.

  • FishermageFishermage Member Posts: 7,562


    Originally posted by darkwonderer
    Originally posted by Fishermage

     



    Originally posted by darkwonderer
    You can not reason with passion. This is fundamentally flawed logic. For they are fundamentally different.
    Although you did an admirable job in trying.

     
    Since you didn't quote, it's impossible to know what you are referring to. But if you meant me...
    One can easily reason with passion. Passion is NON-rational, not IR-rational. The emotions one feels while one is reasoning is irrelevant to the reasoning itself. Some folks can't deal with it, others can. Einstein passionately LOVED physics, and if you read his reasoning, you will find they are full of passion.
    I LOVE reasoning, and do so passionately. Instead of making false platitudes, how about DEFENDING your case instead of making a bald-faced assertion.
    At any rate, I am not reasoning with passion, I am reasoning with reason. How are they fundamentally different?, in the careful context I have drawn? If it is evil to pay for evil; everyone is evil because everyone, to a greater or lesser extent, pays for evil.
     


     
    You are using reason against their passion (emotion). And passion(emotion) can be very ir-rational. People make insane assertions constantly just because they "feel" vehemently for their stance. The best you can hope to accomplish is to reduce their passion for the subject matter. Or, if you are really skilled (or they are not as passionate about their stance) you can sway the argument to one of reason. This is not the case in this instance.
    The reason they do not understand your argument is because they are passionate (full of emotion) about their feelings of the subject matter. It does not matter what you say.
    And the kind of passion for reasoning you are refering to is not the same I am. Your so called "love" for arguing does not equate to their blind hate of what this game (company) has done to them.. Emotional response is devoid of reason. And because of this can be very irrational, (as well as rational(thus making it non-rational)).
    Imagine the guy with a girl who everyone around him knows is wrong for him. They make their cases, but until he can seperate himself from the situation (become less emotionally involved) it matters little what they say. This is but one limited example of what I am saying.
    I was not insulting you. You simply misunderstood.  My point still stands. You cannot combat passion with reason. Merely try and make them less passionate or, from their point of view, they can try and sweep you up in their passion.

    actually, I have combatted "passion" with reason, and whooped its sorry arse. It's too bad their passion OVERRIDES their reason and they can't even see it.

    Thanks for the clarification. I don't have a passion for arguing at all; by the way, merely for reason an discourse. Actually, I find arguing quite frustrating and it tries my patience, especially when people show they don't know how to debate reasonably.

    Sorry for my misunderstanding.

  • FishermageFishermage Member Posts: 7,562


    Originally posted by Obee
    Originally posted by HastorHadron
    Originally posted by Obee

     
    Okay, taking away all the "good" and "evil" talk, do you think SOE would be more or less likely to do mini-NGEs to their other prodicts if everyone had quit SWG due to the NGE (or due to any of the random min-NGEs since)? 



     
    I apologize for the editing but the whole string of quotes was way too long for me. Here is what I think. The NGE did cripple SWG. I think that was enough to discourage others from even attempting another NGE on another game... that is, unless greed blinds them.
    Look if your friend got permanently disfigured and mauled by peeing on a Grizzly Bear's head, I would think that would convey the same message as if they had been killed.
    So at the end of the day, I do not think it would have changed anything if everyone quit, the vast majority did.
    Some hardheaded pride still exists, SOE still continues to miss out on all the revenue a classic server would generate. . . BUT they have not attempted another NGE to my knowledge on another game. So even if they do not admit it, it clear to those around them that did indeed get mauled by peeing on the Grizzlies head.


     
    They did it to EQ2 (it is much more like WoW than it was three years ago) and they arein the process of doing it to Vanguard (adding in bonus XP and making the game generally easier to advance in).  Neither of those game were revamped all at once, but they were revamped (well, Vanguard is in the process).  The only thing SOE learned from the NGE is to not do the revamp all at once.
    Even Fishermage has complained about what he has called mini-NGEs that have been done to SWG since the Smed claimed that they had learned their lesson and would never do anything like it again..  He has called them out for not actually having learned anything from the NGE, more than once.
    The only lessons SOE learned from the fallout over the NGE have been the wrong ones.  SOE got mauled by peeing on the grizzly's head, but the lesson they took away was that they wouldn't have been mauled if they had pissed on the grizzly's head a little at a time, or had communicated to the grizzly that they were gong to piss on its head better.  They then called the grizzly an idiot and a conspiracy theorist, and implied that the only reason it got mad in the first place was because it didn't give being pissed on a chance.
     
     

    If you make it your life mission to change a corporation, you will most probably be disappointed. If you try and make a bad game better; or encourage a good game to be made, one might have more success.

    If you try and enjoy life, love your neighbor and have some fun in this world...well, now you are on the right track.

    All I want is a Star Wars MMO I can enjoy. In terms of lofty goals, I am out to save the world through loving one neighbor at a time, not damage one pesky little corporation.

    That won't however stop me from discussing it nor from criticizing them when they do wrong, and complimenting them when they do right. Fair and balanced all the way, no matter which side flames me.

  • Esquire1980Esquire1980 Member UncommonPosts: 568

    The entire problem here is that there is basicly no replacement for SWG, in ANY of it's incarnations.  If there was, not many would scream that SOE, or it's employees should be tared and feathered, they would be playing the game.  Even Kobie (barrahm) states that most people that are there haven't found anything else, along with Fisher, and they are both probably 100% correct.

    WoW started the mess.  SOE has never figured out that if past or present customers wanted to play WoW, they would play WoW.  Especially after the game was CHANGED so radiclly time and time again.  The OPs analgy is 100% correct in the "lessons learned"   via NGE.  The "peeing on the head" hit the nail on the head.

    If $OE would put up a "classic server", most of these arguments would simply go away.  Most people would be playing the game and not have all that much time for making these arguments.  Instead, they fuel the fire.  If another gaming company put up anything, with all the key assets that SWG has or had, that would probably surfice also.  Neither has been done.  And the people that played have basiclly nothing to go to.  Hopefully, Bioware/LA is working on this.

    Personally, I have made the decision to be done with $OE as far as my wallet goes.  If they make a MASSIVE CHANGE or many mini CHANGES that amount to a MASSIVE CHANGE over a year, it really make no difference.  The game CHANGES in a massive manner.  This is why there IS no in-game population in SWG and the small playerbase they have left is screaming for something (anything) to be done about it.  I really believe that $OE really knows they have no potential new customers out there anymore and what little attempts at creating a larger customers base is aimed totally at former players that had shown an interest, at least once.  Problem is, in $OEs massive ego, they still haven't figured out why all the people left, yet.

  • stinneystinney Member Posts: 35

    Lets say there is only one shop that sells food.

    You go there because there is no-where else to go. You like the food but only becuase you have never eathen any other food.

    No amount of opinion will change the fact that the food is bad. Even if you like it.

     

  • stinneystinney Member Posts: 35
    Originally posted by AveBethos


    They can bring it on.  They have no valid or logical argument.  SWG is one of the worst MMO games on the market.  It's impossible to make a valid point in defense of a game so putrid. 



     

    What an awesome post. My sentiments exactly.

  • stinneystinney Member Posts: 35
    Originally posted by Malickiebloo

    Originally posted by Obee

    Originally posted by Fishermage


     




    Oh no, don't get me wrong; I know I do this -- I know I am helping and enabling. That wasn't my point.

     

    What I am saying is I am not ashamed of it; just as I am not ashamed of funding the evil that my government does, that other businesses do, and all the evil in the world I have helped out by giving my money to people. It's all part of living in a sinful world.



     

     

    Just a quick question to put things in perspective:

    Would you still be subscribed to SWG is it wasn't based on Star Wars?

     

     

     

    Yep , In that scneario the game would be intact  ,Theoretically that is.

    There is no way a sane person would play  SWG NGE if it wasn't Star Wars.

     

  • stinneystinney Member Posts: 35
    Originally posted by Obee

    Originally posted by Dreamion


    Around a year ago SOE hired a new "worker" to the SWG project, i mean, seriously, if more people would have cancelled their sub they wouldnt hire more people or try to make it better, wich they never will. I've also heard that they are releasing a new planet or expansion for it? (hoth), first of all, they should considering fixing the game as it is. I've tried NGE and it wasnt easy lurking around by myself trying to do some quests at high-end level, and its empty everywhere. STOP PAYING THEIR SUBS.

     

    SOE hired three people for SWG, which was claimed to be a net gain for the dev team.  The three that were hired were systems designers, and the net gain was nullified when a couple of the SWG dev team members with more seniority were bumped up to the DCUO project (after they showed the new guys the ins and outs of the 'heroic' instance toolset).  The net gain was changed to a net loss when Pex was moved to the Free Realms project.  Don't worry though, having less people on the development team allows the team to be even more agile, so they can respond to wht the players want even faster than before!

     

    Are you serious? Less development staff means they can respond quicker?

     

    Tell me how, and I'll tell you how it does not.

  • stinneystinney Member Posts: 35
    Originally posted by Obee

    Originally posted by HastorHadron

    Originally posted by Obee



     

    Okay, taking away all the "good" and "evil" talk, do you think SOE would be more or less likely to do mini-NGEs to their other prodicts if everyone had quit SWG due to the NGE (or due to any of the random min-NGEs since)? 

     

    I apologize for the editing but the whole string of quotes was way too long for me. Here is what I think. The NGE did cripple SWG. I think that was enough to discourage others from even attempting another NGE on another game... that is, unless greed blinds them.

    Look if your friend got permanently disfigured and mauled by peeing on a Grizzly Bear's head, I would think that would convey the same message as if they had been killed.

    So at the end of the day, I do not think it would have changed anything if everyone quit, the vast majority did.

    Some hardheaded pride still exists, SOE still continues to miss out on all the revenue a classic server would generate. . . BUT they have not attempted another NGE to my knowledge on another game. So even if they do not admit it, it clear to those around them that did indeed get mauled by peeing on the Grizzlies head.

     

    They did it to EQ2 (it is much more like WoW than it was three years ago) and they arein the process of doing it to Vanguard (adding in bonus XP and making the game generally easier to advance in).  Neither of those game were revamped all at once, but they were revamped (well, Vanguard is in the process).  The only thing SOE learned from the NGE is to not do the revamp all at once.

    Even Fishermage has complained about what he has called mini-NGEs that have been done to SWG since the Smed claimed that they had learned their lesson and would never do anything like it again..  He has called them out for not actually having learned anything from the NGE, more than once.

    The only lessons SOE learned from the fallout over the NGE have been the wrong ones.  SOE got mauled by peeing on the grizzly's head, but the lesson they took away was that they wouldn't have been mauled if they had pissed on the grizzly's head a little at a time, or had communicated to the grizzly that they were gong to piss on its head better.  They then called the grizzly an idiot and a conspiracy theorist, and implied that the only reason it got mad in the first place was because it didn't give being pissed on a chance.

     

     



     

    ROFL!  I LOVE THIS POST!!! This is exactly what has happened. Perfect 10/10

  • KylrathinKylrathin Member Posts: 426
    Originally posted by stinney

    Originally posted by Obee

    Originally posted by Dreamion


    Around a year ago SOE hired a new "worker" to the SWG project, i mean, seriously, if more people would have cancelled their sub they wouldnt hire more people or try to make it better, wich they never will. I've also heard that they are releasing a new planet or expansion for it? (hoth), first of all, they should considering fixing the game as it is. I've tried NGE and it wasnt easy lurking around by myself trying to do some quests at high-end level, and its empty everywhere. STOP PAYING THEIR SUBS.

     

    SOE hired three people for SWG, which was claimed to be a net gain for the dev team.  The three that were hired were systems designers, and the net gain was nullified when a couple of the SWG dev team members with more seniority were bumped up to the DCUO project (after they showed the new guys the ins and outs of the 'heroic' instance toolset).  The net gain was changed to a net loss when Pex was moved to the Free Realms project.  Don't worry though, having less people on the development team allows the team to be even more agile, so they can respond to wht the players want even faster than before!

     

    Are you serious? Less development staff means they can respond quicker?

     

    Tell me how, and I'll tell you how it does not.

     

    No, he's not serious.  But our happy friends at SOE claimed a major reason for the NGE was to simplify things which would allow the dev team to respond quicker to what players want.  They also trimmed their dev team for the exact same stated reason.  Obee was just reminding us how cool, new, iconic, and Star-Warsy the dev team changes are.  Oh, and iconic.  Did I mention they were cool and iconic?

    There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Originally posted by Obee

    Originally posted by Malickiebloo

    Originally posted by Obee

    Originally posted by Fishermage


     




    Oh no, don't get me wrong; I know I do this -- I know I am helping and enabling. That wasn't my point.

     

    What I am saying is I am not ashamed of it; just as I am not ashamed of funding the evil that my government does, that other businesses do, and all the evil in the world I have helped out by giving my money to people. It's all part of living in a sinful world.



     

     

    Just a quick question to put things in perspective:

    Would you still be subscribed to SWG is it wasn't based on Star Wars?

     

     

     

    Yep , In that scneario the game would be intact  ,Theoretically that is.

     

    I'm asking about the current version of the game, including the lies and borderline fraud that was involved in getting the game to the point it is in now.

    Tell me, do you think the current game, if it a brand new game launched in the current state it is in, without the Star Wars IP, would be a successful MMO?  Do you think it would have more or less players then it currently does now?

     

    In it's current state no , Not at all as far as successful. I have no clue how many people play ,so I can't answer your second question. But it surely does not have the pop you would expect for something bearing the Star Wars I.P. The numbers seem more in line with a bad game without a major I.P supporting it , So it's possible but definitely not certain.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Originally posted by stinney

    Originally posted by Malickiebloo

    Originally posted by Obee

    Originally posted by Fishermage


     




    Oh no, don't get me wrong; I know I do this -- I know I am helping and enabling. That wasn't my point.

     

    What I am saying is I am not ashamed of it; just as I am not ashamed of funding the evil that my government does, that other businesses do, and all the evil in the world I have helped out by giving my money to people. It's all part of living in a sinful world.



     

     

    Just a quick question to put things in perspective:

    Would you still be subscribed to SWG is it wasn't based on Star Wars?

     

     

     

    Yep , In that scneario the game would be intact  ,Theoretically that is.

    There is no way a sane person would play  SWG NGE if it wasn't Star Wars.

     

    I was talking about Pre-cu

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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