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Do We Really Need the Star Wars part in Galaxies?
Mackerni
Member Posts: 230
(I hope this thread doesn't get closed because I happen to mention the emu team)
I was wondering why we like Star Wars Galaxies so much. Thinking back on it, everything Star Wars Galaxies was, wasn't really directly tied into Star Wars at all.
Sure, there were Imperials and Rebels in the initial release in the game, but these two forces could be replaced by anything. They are variables like x and y. Good and evil, dictatorship over democracy. Same thing with the planets - they're simply variables within the controlled context of George Lucas and the Expanded Universe. Take a look at the basic professions: scout, entertainer, medic, artisan, brawler, and marksman. Do any of these exist only in the Star Wars universe? No. None of them are can be copywrited. Sure, other than human, the other playable species in the game are copywritten, but anyone can design new races. It doesn't take a genius to do this.
You have to remember that in the initial release of the game, they didn't even create the content for Jedi.
Then I kept thinking about MMORPGs. I do have this 'ultimate idea' for a MMORPG that is basically real life sped up 1000 times faster (think The Sims + Civilization), but I know realistically this would never happen in my lifetime. So I've been thinking what kind of MMORPG I would like. And a lot of the things I want in a MMORPG are basically pre-CU SWG, with some slight variations.
And then I kept thinking about the emulator teams out there trying to make their best version of pre-CU. Because this is Star Wars, they cannot anything to make any money out of this. And then I kept thinking about how many people are bitching about SoE, including me. Let's just face the facts:
THEY WILL NEVER RE-MAKE PRE-CU SWG. THERE IS NO USE AT YELLING AT A FIRE.
So how we get the old Star Wars Galaxies back? We make a game just like it - with sci-fi elements, a practical sandbox style, and add new features that Star Wars couldn't have. We have the ability to make it better than it was. We can name our own universe, an original one that doesn't need to follow any supposed-storyline. And I think this would be for the better.
So if you guys are so serious about wanting to have the same gameplay as pre-CU, make it happen. Get developers that used to make SWG, get the emu developers, make a campaign for a new company, and try to make a profit off doing it. Everything F2P sucks ass anyways - I wouldn't mind paying for a game and a monthly subscription to an original pre-CU gameplay-style with more sandbox-y features (possibly added later).
So, what do you guys think? I think it's the only real viable option to obtaining what we want.
Comments
I've often thought about the above.
I'd play it.
Well, you are in luck...there is a game in alpha that hits on all points!
It is called "Crusades" and you can find it here:
http://www.vizualfxstudios.com/crusades/
Haven't you've seen "levels" and "classes" appear all over the website? Pre-CU had neither of these, pre-CU had mission difficulty (not subject to an individual but the planet itself) and professions, basic and elite professions.
Really good idea.there's been a few posts like this one along.But until you,me or some like minded person hits a really big lottery,there's about 20-50 million reasons against it,most of them having to do with dollars
I would have been just as happy if there had never been a jedi in the game.Or if it had been called the Firefly Verse..The Star Wars name did draw a lot if not most people to it tho.
yes, it did need the star wars part. 98% or more people joined precu in the hopes of unlocking jedi, the rest of the good stuff came with it. even if the people don't admit it that is why they joined.
ok, so you want to take precu and change it to non star wars mmo? that's more than just changing races you have to change basically everything that exists and the models for them within the game.. all armor and weapons, have to rename the planets change housing and building models. most furniture, all pets and mounts and most wild spawns, vehicles.. all that modeling would take forever.....i would totally play it though
Since they didn't even have jedi for the first year or so after go-live (give or take a few months), I'd have to say your 98% figure is way, way off.
Since they didn't even have jedi for the first year or so after go-live (give or take a few months), I'd have to say your 98% figure is way, way off.
Oh yeah.... well i guess you weren't there? We didn't know the jedi system wasn't in place. They told us it was available and it was a huge selling point. Really it was in 6 months for sure cause we all got holo's for christmas. then people started to know what to do. The first unlocks were in november which was 5 months after launch or less...
like really, why would you comment on something you have no clue about?
Then I am pround to be one of the 2% of the people that did not buy the game to be a jedi. I got it to explore the star wars unversie. Happy for the people that got jedi that wanted it but I was happy being a CH. I still remeber fondly my time in the med center healing people and hanging out in the tryena cantina.
I originally bought SWG because it was a sci-fi mmorpg, not because of the IP. Everything that I really enjoyed about it had nothing to do with the "iconic" Star Wars elements. I had no interest in Jedi for example. I loved the CH pets and surveying and bioengineering and exploring. I'd certainly play any form of the game which used the pre-CU game mechanics.
What drew me to SWG was the Star Wars theme. I Love star wars (not the movies mind you. Blegh. ), and so naturally with the announcement of a Star Wars Online game i flocked to it!
But now, i think it's more... addiction to what the game was and not it's theme. I loved the complete sandbox style of gameplay. With the basics provided and everything else left up to you.
If another game came out with the same system as SWG had pre-CU. You better bet your butt i'd play it. Even if it was Galaxies of Warcraft.
The freedom Pre-CU SWG gave you over your character's development and role in the virtual society is unlike any other. A true masterpiece despite flaws in my mind.
So sure. Forget the "Star Wars" part. I want the SWG system is all now.
I want the importance of the community, the 30+ profession options.. all capable of being combined and mixed with one another. I want the open world to explore and a community driven economy.
Bring it on!
Everquest - 2000 - '02
Anarchy Online - '01-'02
Earth and Beyond - '02-'04
Star Wars Galaxies - '03-'06('07)
World of Warcraft - '04-'07
Age of Conan - '08 - shelved.
-Waiting on-
Star Trek Online
SW: The Old Republic
"Do we really need the Star Wars part in Galaxies?"
IMHO, and especially for the time SWG came out and the few months afterwards: YES.
Why? The game came out with an undeniably rocky, troublesome start. It makes AoC's launch day look like LotRO's launch. It was the Star Wars name, IMO, that drew alot of players into the game in the first place. It was for me since I was a big Star Wars fan prior to SWG. Because of those players drawn in by the SW name, we had that awesome player community of the time to build around. Because I was drawn in to SWG because of the Star Wars name, I had the chance to experience the glory of the Sandbox style of MMO gameplay. I never read about it from the few previews that I bothered to read about SWG prior to its release. It is the SW name that people stuck around for as long as they did, it is still the reason why the game still lingers in its zombie-like NGE state: Because it is Star Wars, and it's the only SW MMO.
With SWG's very bad launch, and subsequent problems that we all are familiar with, how do you think the game would have fared if it did NOT have the Star Wars name to it?
=============
Now, to answer the thread's initial question again: "Do we really need the Star Wars part in Galaxies?"
Today, NO. Why?
A) There's more MMO players now than there has ever been compared to SWG's release year in 2003. Lots more discussions about it in various forums. More previews and promotions than in the past because there are TONS of MMOs these days. Word of mouth these days on games is quite strong, IMO, especially if alot of players that try it end up liking it.
C) Here's the big reason, IMO. Because the gameplay style, the Sandbox format, similiar to how Pre-CU SWG was, would truly be unique these days. Practically all MMOs use the Class + Level system. WoW does it. LotRO does it. AoC, the big name, recent entry, does it. And those are only the big name titles. The Sandbox style of MMO gameplay has been absent from big-name MMOs for about 3 YEARS now. Think about that. This style of play would truly set the game apart from the other heavy contenders. On numerous forums where I've described the gameplay format of the Pre-CU system of SWG (I've done it in LotRO and AoC's forums), you'd be surprised with newer players asking about the freedom of play such a system gave.
Right now is the right time for a good, solid Sandbox MMO. Simply because the game community over the net is much more talkative these days (it can help on promotion, it sure as hell did with AoC's hype), and also because it's been forever for anything like it to go mainstream.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
This is a very interesting question and one that companies should pay attention to.
Now, I left EQ to play SWG but the reason I did is because I was very frustrated in EQ. I wanted to see the end game but my guild was too small. I could hardly find a group which meant I didnt get to play...but what was playing in that game? It was really just a grind, but with a group. So I was ripe to switch games....(take note publishers).
THen out comes SWG!! Yes, I love the SW IP, I love science fiction and science fantasy (SW is science fantasy, not fiction) (A definition, offered by Rod Serling, is that "science fiction makes the implausible possible, while science fantasy makes the impossible plausible." )
So, I was ready and there was an opportunity...SWG. But, what kept me in this game?
It was everything...no forced grouping, housing, the most elaborate crafting ever, player based economy, socialization (you end up doing it due to the economy...no way around it), skill trees vice lvls, player cities and housing, mission terminals and the sandbox style. It was those elements that made the game for me. I would play any game that offered those elements again.
In SWG you could play without a group, I never thought I would enjoy a game so much...my only complaint was the "betrayal" from SOE...
Short answer, no...we dont need SW in SWG. In fact, the MMO by Bioware and Lucas will probably not meet their unrealistic expectations....most SW fans are older and older folks prefer the old SWG style...not the wow style.
Well, pre-CU Star Wars Galaxies was not perfect.
I hated the fact that riflemen were a thousand times more powerful than carbineer or pistoleer, since their weapons could pierce armor... Armor itself didn't have enough trade-offs (you HAD to have armor in order to be in combat) and the fact that before the CU you HAD to wear that composite armor (everybody who was in combat worn it, the only difference was the colors they bore). Also, the only weapon in commando that wasn't broken was flamethrower and bounty hunter/smuggler attacks were constantly being over-nerfed.
Also, pre-CU desperately NEEDED to have some more sandbox features included. I've always wanted:
~Player-created mission terminal missions
~ROADS and WALLS to player cities. I'm sorry, without them they still looked like villages.
~More variation to entertainer and artisan. Especially entertainer. What they needed to do is revamp entertainer to have as much depth as artisan, and have artisan have as much variation as entertainer.
~More unique mission terminals, such as a Smuggler's mission terminal for Jabba the Hutt, commando mission terminals where you have to use explosives to destroy a building, a medical mission terminal, and a mercenary terminal with a new system that allows neutral fighters to fight for the Empire or Rebellion for a sum amount.
~How about them actually revamping the smugglers as they promised ... and actually allow them to, I don't know ... smuggle?
More content COULD have been there for the Pre-CU system given time. If the devs had not decided to do the CU route to only scrub it a few months later with the true Death Star Project: The NGE they secretly were putting together.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
More content COULD have been there for the Pre-CU system given time. If the devs had not decided to do the CU route to only scrub it a few months later with the true Death Star Project: The NGE they secretly were putting together.
I still remeber the list of new places to go(corevtte,death watch). I can not rember how many were on there but sometimes I wonder if they had added those new places if that would be enough content for people to say they were moveing forward. I could be wrong but I thought they had 10 places they had planed to make and only got the first 2 or 3 on the list.
I am sorry I do not know were to look and I could be rembering it wrong on the number of places they planed just remeber looking forward to them.
The only thing the NGE did right was introducing new instances, some new quests (with some dubious quality, but they were there).
It would have been nice if such content was added in the Pre-CU system.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
The Star Wars wasn't that important to me. I heard about it earlier then I probably would have because of friends being excited about the Star Wars part, but I much prefer sci fi to fantasy so I'd have tried it when ever I did eventualy hear about it and the parts I loved (the crafting system, no levels, the skill trees, player housing) about preCU had nothing to do with Star Wars so I'd have enjoyed the game just as much without the Star Wars. Past my personal opinion of the game, I think it would have started off slower without the Star Wars but there would have been the added benefits of no LA involvement and I think less attention from SoE thinking they have to be able to "milk" SW better. With those differences, updates might not have happened as fast but they probably have stuck with upgrades that actualy improved what was wrong with the game, unlike the CU and NGE. I'd probably still be playing it!
Uhh ....
NO
Quests SUCK. Instances SUCK. They are LINEAR GAMEPLAY - I.E. NOT SANDBOX.
A sandbox refers to everybody having to share the same land. An instance would be like giant worm hole in a piece of land that duplicates area for a certain amount of people. And when you show me that happening, I'll show you a pig that flies. As well, you have to exit an instance after you're finished, unlike non-instanced caves.
Mission terminals were much better than quests. Once you finish a quest, you cannot do it again, unlike mission terminals. Half of the time you do a quest and your reward is some piece of shit you can't use, and have to trade, but all mission terminal missions had cash as the reward. Anyone can use cash. Plus, when quests give you items as rewards it destroys the inscentives of crafting professions.
All in all, I'm against quests more so than instances. I thought that SWG was starting to fall after the Corellian Corvette was released, but didn't quit because I didn't think they would become so linear as it is today.
I used to play World of Warcraft. I used to get into the fad. But then I realized something. This is basically how WoW operates:
*Choose a server, one name, a gender, a face, a color, and a class*
*From level x to level x+4 do 25 quests, grind, discover two new instances you're able to enter, discover two new countries (or whatever you call them) you're able to fight in, get a new ability, gain 30 points on the skills you choose, randomly get three recipes you cannot use and sell, randomly get three weapons you cannot use and sell, spend almost all of your money on new weapons and armor since the shit you're wearing now is obsolete and it was absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to wear the better armor before, and save up the little money you do have left on TEH NEXT THANG*
If Blizzard really wanted to, they could duplicate any land and quests they wanted, raise the levels of the NPCs by 1-10 levels, raise the level cap ten levels, and call it a new expansion pack. And to stop the smart people from bitching they'll make a, "new" class like "Blood Elf" which is the exact same thing as Night Elf only red and for the opposite faction.
Wait .... they already did this! (And at least six different times in the original game - the same bear, turtle, deer, hydra, and everything else NPC models with different textures, yeah, CONTENT to the MAX)
The ONLY idea that held ANY merit was twitch shooting. But even I think that should have been an option, and not the only way to fight - which it was when NGE first released.
Uhh ....
NO
Quests SUCK. Instances SUCK. They are LINEAR GAMEPLAY - I.E. NOT SANDBOX.
Quests doesn't have to be linear, and instances have NOTHING to do with linear gameplay - the representation of linear gameplay is the premise of level and class, not quests and instances.
A sandbox refers to everybody having to share the same land. An instance would be like giant worm hole in a piece of land that duplicates area for a certain amount of people. And when you show me that happening, I'll show you a pig that flies. As well, you have to exit an instance after you're finished, unlike non-instanced caves.
Mission terminals were much better than quests. Once you finish a quest, you cannot do it again, unlike mission terminals. Half of the time you do a quest and your reward is some piece of shit you can't use, and have to trade, but all mission terminal missions had cash as the reward. Anyone can use cash. Plus, when quests give you items as rewards it destroys the inscentives of crafting professions.
All in all, I'm against quests more so than instances. I thought that SWG was starting to fall after the Corellian Corvette was released, but didn't quit because I didn't think they would become so linear as it is today.
A well designed quests where there can be different results, and only can be done by one person or one group per day/week/month are workable in sandbox, it just have to fit the design. Without that you get people screaming about no contents...
I used to play World of Warcraft. I used to get into the fad. But then I realized something. This is basically how WoW operates:
*Choose a server, one name, a gender, a face, a color, and a class*
*From level x to level x+4 do 25 quests, grind, discover two new instances you're able to enter, discover two new countries (or whatever you call them) you're able to fight in, get a new ability, gain 30 points on the skills you choose, randomly get three recipes you cannot use and sell, randomly get three weapons you cannot use and sell, spend almost all of your money on new weapons and armor since the shit you're wearing now is obsolete and it was absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to wear the better armor before, and save up the little money you do have left on TEH NEXT THANG*
If Blizzard really wanted to, they could duplicate any land and quests they wanted, raise the levels of the NPCs by 1-10 levels, raise the level cap ten levels, and call it a new expansion pack. And to stop the smart people from bitching they'll make a, "new" class like "Blood Elf" which is the exact same thing as Night Elf only red and for the opposite faction.
Wait .... they already did this! (And at least six different times in the original game - the same bear, turtle, deer, hydra, and everything else NPC models with different textures, yeah, CONTENT to the MAX)
The ONLY idea that held ANY merit was twitch shooting. But even I think that should have been an option, and not the only way to fight - which it was when NGE first released.
I say twitch shooting would have merit if it were pushed as a new game, but since the idiots at SOE screwed this up, they take away any merit of it from the NGE.
You had interesting thought here, but do not categorize quests and instances with linear/sandbox game-play. Those really have little or nothing to do with it. Quests may have some relation, but it can be designed for sandbox game-play as well. Instance is another topic altogether...
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Well, I always thought that instead of the NGE it should have been a Battlefront MMOFPS...
Quests and instances are the pinnacle of linear gameplay. What is more linear than, "Do this". And then after you do this, "Do that." And after that you, "Do some more of this." Quests are EXTREMELY linear. They give you NO option. Mission terminals, however, GAVE YOU AN OPTION. They gave you five missions and if you didn't like any of them, you could refresh the screen and get five more missions!
And don't give me it. Instances are created BECAUSE of quests. There would be no instances if there were no quests. The first quests outside the theme parks in Star Wars Galaxies were connected to the Corellian Corvette - AN INSTANCE. Why didn't they make the Corellian Corvette a regular part ol normal space in the game? Because if they had there would always be fifty people in it, killing off any first spawn instantly, and always reaching the end without difficulty. Instances that do not involve quests are usually there for a linear path towards a boss that has a high payout, usually towards an extremely powerful weapon or armorpiece that a crafter could not make - and would destroy the economy of traders in SWG.
Well, I always thought that instead of the NGE it should have been a Battlefront MMOFPS...
Quests and instances are the pinnacle of linear gameplay. What is more linear than, "Do this". And then after you do this, "Do that." And after that you, "Do some more of this." Quests are EXTREMELY linear. They give you NO option. Mission terminals, however, GAVE YOU AN OPTION. They gave you five missions and if you didn't like any of them, you could refresh the screen and get five more missions!
And don't give me it. Instances are created BECAUSE of quests. There would be no instances if there were no quests. The first quests outside the theme parks in Star Wars Galaxies were connected to the Corellian Corvette - AN INSTANCE. Why didn't they make the Corellian Corvette a regular part ol normal space in the game? Because if they had there would always be fifty people in it, killing off any first spawn instantly, and always reaching the end without difficulty. Instances that do not involve quests are usually there for a linear path towards a boss that has a high payout, usually towards an extremely powerful weapon or armorpiece that a crafter could not make - and would destroy the economy of traders in SWG.
If you are using the present form of quests, then I can give you that it is very linear in design, but it doesn't have to be, and shouldn't.
The present form of quests is the compilation of tasks/missions and quests lumped together by the developers and call them "quest", and basically it is static and linear. But quests should never be as linear as it is now, since even though there is a final goal, the path is different, and therefore the result should reflect the decisions made and path taken. However the developers are not making quest to be true to its definition, and instead they take the name of it, and made mundane tasks out of what should be an exciting journey.
As for instance, if you argue that it breaks immersion and that it takes the element away from the open-world feel, I will agree to it, but instances are NOT result of quests, but more or less result of the loot-based game-play (the players camp spawns to gather needed loots, and others can't experience the same content, hence developers focus on making the contents open to all by the use of instances.)
So to say that if there are not quests there are no instance is a false assumption. And as I stated, the issue of linear game-play is in the level/class, and quest had relation to it, not much (all due to design), and instance is open-world and open-contents issue that's linked to the loot-based game-play, not really linked to linear game-play.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
How do you make quests non-linear? I would like to hear your suggestions, because I honestly don't know how you make quests non-linear. Yeah, what they could do is give you an option on what quest to take, or what objectives to do (like a moral choice), but other than that I don't see how they can make non-linear quests.
Hrm. You just pointed out why there shouldn't be instances in SWG - the loot aspect of it. Unless the loot is worth something to the artisan to craft it with, it's going to decrease the role of artisans in any particular given game.
Hmm...
I knew of no one in the community I played with(including RL friends, RP buddies, PvP friends, guildies etc) that joined SWG at launch to wave a glowbat around.
Everyone wanted to "live" in the Star Wars world, make their own person....
Heck, I know of quite a few who QUIT the game, when the first Jedi was unlocked, and the xmas holocube came about... Because that day, the game stopped being "experience the Star Wars world", and became "Jedi glowbat world, looking like something from Star Wars".
Most Jedi grinders I knew, started playing when Jedi came about... Heck, there was a influx of Jedi wannabe's.... Lotsa new players only wanting to wave a glowbat around, and f*ck the lore... But the numbers showed that more people quit than joined the game over Jedi.
Heck, the NGE "Free Jedi to everyone!!!!" showed that there's less people caring about "Jedi jedi jedi wheee" than "Star Wars lore"
I couldn't agree with this post more. I started playing at release to be a smuggler in the Star Wars universe and never once gave being a jedi a thought. Even after thet handed out holocrons, I think mine sat on a table in my house. I guess that puts us in the 2% an earlier post mentioned, but I find that number highly unlikely to begin with.
The game was ruined with Jedi, later "upgrades" and changes were just the nail in the coffin. Yes, I know the game is still running and there are people who still play, I just saying it was ruined for me at that point. Jedi did not belong in the time period the game was supposed to take place and ruined the entire lore of the game for me and many other that I played with. Worst of all, the decision makers decided to spend all their time and effort adding more content to create more jedi and completely getting away from the lore of the Star Wars universe as it should have been. There is also the fact that with most people "holo-grinding" it completely ruined the economy, but that hasn't been mentioned here so I guess I'll save that rant for another post.
Truthfully?
Raph and the devs didn't even want Jedi to be mentioned on the game box...
He said so in a forum post a lil time before launch, when the box art was available, and people questioned it, since it had been the dev stance from early website/forums up to launch(nearly) that Jedi was not a focus at all, if even added as playable....
But Marketing had forced it upon the devs and SWG.... Cuz ya know.. Jedi is the only thing that sells Star Wars... You know, all Star Wars fans, including the organized Fan groups, like the 501'st(biggest organized group) were all about Jedi. Marketing morons!
And the same marketing morons that failed to market the game at launch, the same marketing morons that were given the task of making the NGE succeed when they estimated loosing the 200.000 current players, and gain WoW players instead... Same marketing that hired Nancy "readin' is bad m'kay?" McIntyre, and had a certain douche go on tv telling the current players to go away.
But onto the topic...
No, the game mechanics of SWG-PreCU, did not need Star Wars to be a good game...All it had needed was some god dang polish and completion.