Why did I care? Because I joined late and joined a great guild, but felt completely useless. Sure I could grind up skill X, but everyone else had it at 250 already. So they would let me heal if I wanted to, but it was just to gain skill - no one really needed me to heal. Or to shoot. Or to craft. Etc. My only motivation when playing an MMO is to be useful and work well with my team, and if each member of the team is entirely self-sufficient I pretty much lose all motivation.
This is sad. This is NOT what gaming was about or should be about. When your motivation is to be part of a group, to be "someone" in the pack, it's no longer about personal achievement, it's about being a Page to others.
Leveling everything isn't a problem, it's balancing the classes so there's no one left out. EQII has a serious problem with that now, as groups/raids cherrypick. Luckily, FPS games don't have this problem (love playing support, as there's no better guy to see on the battlefield than the ammo carrier or the medic).
The whole goal is that you matter in the scheme of things, in that great big faceless world. Not replace autonomy to be #10 in the group/guild, and basically a bench warmer.
MMOs really have to review their class systems. This is truly sad to read.
Why did I care? Because I joined late and joined a great guild, but felt completely useless. Sure I could grind up skill X, but everyone else had it at 250 already. So they would let me heal if I wanted to, but it was just to gain skill - no one really needed me to heal. Or to shoot. Or to craft. Etc. My only motivation when playing an MMO is to be useful and work well with my team, and if each member of the team is entirely self-sufficient I pretty much lose all motivation.
This is sad. This is NOT what gaming was about or should be about. When your motivation is to be part of a group, to be "someone" in the pack, it's no longer about personal achievement, it's about being a Page to others.
Leveling everything isn't a problem, it's balancing the classes so there's no one left out. EQII has a serious problem with that now, as groups/raids cherrypick. Luckily, FPS games don't have this problem (love playing support, as there's no better guy to see on the battlefield than the ammo carrier or the medic).
The whole goal is that you matter in the scheme of things, in that great big faceless world. Not replace autonomy to be #10 in the group/guild, and basically a bench warmer.
MMOs really have to review their class systems. This is truly sad to read.
Too bad you consider it "sad", but it's what I enjoy. Reaching the maximum level by itself for some sense of "personal achievement" is not enough for me - then I can kill "more powerful" creatures that are often the same as those at previous levels except for arbitrarily more exp and damage per hit. In most MMOs today, leveling takes very little skill and only requires you put in the appropriate amount of time.
Working together in a team, being the best in my role, and playing with others who are the best in their role is where I feel MMOs really shine - it's the multiplayer aspect that you can't get in a solo game. In EQ I loved playing an enchanter - pinning down 5-6 mobs at a time while my group took on the rest. Is that "being a Page to others"? It never felt that way - I was having too good a time making sure my group survived. As was the healer. And the tank. And every other person in the group who was playing well. I had to rely on and trust the tank to maintain aggro, the healer to heal and not take aggro, and damage producers not to overreach themselves and take aggro from the tank, starting a chain reaction of deaths.
Having classes doesn't create this interaction and need to work with others - in UO no one had a class-driven role, but you did need to select a skillset that would determine your role, since you weren't allowed to max out EVERY skill. In Ryzom, since every skill could be maxed, there were no roles at all. Anyone could cast any spell or use any skill. Every individual became self-sufficient, and the groups I hunted with were harmed by that - it was more of a random free for all than a strategic hunting party. Sometimes we would take roles, ("I'll heal") and that was more enjoyable, but based on the game mechanics with maxed out chars, it was unnecessary and most groups didn't bother.
I do find it interesting you know exactly what "gaming should NOT be about". I thought the point was to have fun? But please, do tell us all what we should or should not enjoy when playing a game.
Edit - It was too ironic to pass up editing once I saw your quote, UNATCOII. You say "MMO doesn''t mean only Groups/Guilds/PvP gaming. It’s many people playing *different* game styles."
And yet you feel the need to dictate what gaming should and should not be, and what I should and should not enjoy? All I can say is... wow.
I will probably try it out if/when they reopen it, fresh server or not. I only played the bate and a little after launch but never had the time back then. I like some of the ideas in the game, deviating quite a bit from other MMOGs, so I'll want to see how they work out and why.
Naturally, having been down for a while they must have been doing something wrong in the past (game side, service side, marketing side? - I don't know), and I'd like to see whether they fix this. We need MMOGs that are different from the current mainstream ones.
I never played it but the free trial which I quite enjoyed. I'll probably give it a go.
Playing: Xsyon. Played: Tried: Ultima Online, Everquest 2, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, Flyff, Perfect World, Silkroad Online, EVE Online, Ryzom.
Too bad you consider it "sad", but it's what I enjoy.
To always play second fiddle??
Always wanted to be concert master, as that was the best position. And that came by personal best (and practicing damn hard), not by sitting in the back with some buds coasting by.
Oh, and about your remark about my sig: it's there to remind folks like you and devs, that folks do still play solo, and games that have 1/3 content denied them are a disservice to the game. Humans aren't the Borg, ya know.
poythres, you didn't play the same Ryzom I played. That isn't because I'm a veteran in it; I played low-level alts a lot. You probably just didn't join a guild that was right for you.
- No one ever mastered all of the skills, and due to the sheer time commitment it would require, likely no one ever will.
- An individual can't be entirely self-sufficient (unless they're dual-wielding accounts, and even then the upcoming point about crafting remains true):
=--- Healing spells absolutely do not work on self, leaving only the Self Heal action which has a long cooldown timer. Other defensive actions, such as Melee Protection Aura, have even longer cooldowns.
=--- The casting time/range/cost penalty on heavy armour, coupled with the time it takes to switch out a full set of gear, makes changing roles from melee to caster in the middle of combat impractical. Conversely, changing from caster to melee without switching from your light armour is going to make you a liability more than anything, unless the odds are in your favour and/or you know what you're doing.
If you have highly specialised magic amplifiers, changing between magic types isn't going to be optimally effective, but it works. With relatively generalist amps, casting different magic types is admittedly quite easy and effective.
=--- It used to be said that you can't really solo in Ryzom. You can, with most skills (healing is exclusively group-oriented; the debuff skills must be coupled with similar-level offensive skills, halving the progression rate). But, as the very existence of that rumour/myth demonstrates, it's more difficult than grouping, and at some level ranges for some skills, much moreso.
- Mastering enough crafting and harvesting trees to equip oneself fully with whatever armour or weapons one wants is extremely time-consuming, so most people go to other people for their crafting needs.
- Most of the groups I experienced did set up roles, mainly according to what skills the group members wanted to train at the given time, but at least a healer and a tank and/or damage dealer were always needed. The guilds I have been in mingled level 20s with level 200s, and not only as healers - as long as the higher tanks were doing their jobs, the lowbies could do anything they wanted. At times I saw amazing exercises in player skill, efficiency, and effectiveness.
----------- In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
Originally posted by poythres Too bad you consider it "sad", but it's what I enjoy.
To always play second fiddle??
Always wanted to be concert master, as that was the best position. And that came by personal best (and practicing damn hard), not by sitting in the back with some buds coasting by.
You differ in your motivations and opinions. Is that so hard to just understand and accept, and to leave be? I can definitely understand both motivations, and it saddens me to see people seemingly taking the position that their own opinion is the "right" or "better" one. :-( (My apologies if I completely misunderstood and you're actually agreeing on both being equally valid.)
I love your profile comment, btw. I think too many forget that the MM in MMO(RP)G only means many people play at the same time, not that they have to play in a group with someone. I firmly believe the majority prefers to spend most of their MMORPG time solo. :-)
Comments
of course
is that a trick question?
of course :-)
This is sad. This is NOT what gaming was about or should be about. When your motivation is to be part of a group, to be "someone" in the pack, it's no longer about personal achievement, it's about being a Page to others.
Leveling everything isn't a problem, it's balancing the classes so there's no one left out. EQII has a serious problem with that now, as groups/raids cherrypick. Luckily, FPS games don't have this problem (love playing support, as there's no better guy to see on the battlefield than the ammo carrier or the medic).
The whole goal is that you matter in the scheme of things, in that great big faceless world. Not replace autonomy to be #10 in the group/guild, and basically a bench warmer.
MMOs really have to review their class systems. This is truly sad to read.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Absolutely!!!
From the first minute of the new beggining.
Maybe if they offered a free trial with option to sub at the end.
They do offer one.
I can't wait to start Ryzom again!
Cant wait for it to come back up, ill be in there for sure.
Has one of the best communities for any MMO, if you passed it up the first time around, I suggest giving it a try.
~HappyGaming
OMG Rushin, where the hell have you been hiding, you silly muppet?
This is sad. This is NOT what gaming was about or should be about. When your motivation is to be part of a group, to be "someone" in the pack, it's no longer about personal achievement, it's about being a Page to others.
Leveling everything isn't a problem, it's balancing the classes so there's no one left out. EQII has a serious problem with that now, as groups/raids cherrypick. Luckily, FPS games don't have this problem (love playing support, as there's no better guy to see on the battlefield than the ammo carrier or the medic).
The whole goal is that you matter in the scheme of things, in that great big faceless world. Not replace autonomy to be #10 in the group/guild, and basically a bench warmer.
MMOs really have to review their class systems. This is truly sad to read.
Too bad you consider it "sad", but it's what I enjoy. Reaching the maximum level by itself for some sense of "personal achievement" is not enough for me - then I can kill "more powerful" creatures that are often the same as those at previous levels except for arbitrarily more exp and damage per hit. In most MMOs today, leveling takes very little skill and only requires you put in the appropriate amount of time.
Working together in a team, being the best in my role, and playing with others who are the best in their role is where I feel MMOs really shine - it's the multiplayer aspect that you can't get in a solo game. In EQ I loved playing an enchanter - pinning down 5-6 mobs at a time while my group took on the rest. Is that "being a Page to others"? It never felt that way - I was having too good a time making sure my group survived. As was the healer. And the tank. And every other person in the group who was playing well. I had to rely on and trust the tank to maintain aggro, the healer to heal and not take aggro, and damage producers not to overreach themselves and take aggro from the tank, starting a chain reaction of deaths.
Having classes doesn't create this interaction and need to work with others - in UO no one had a class-driven role, but you did need to select a skillset that would determine your role, since you weren't allowed to max out EVERY skill. In Ryzom, since every skill could be maxed, there were no roles at all. Anyone could cast any spell or use any skill. Every individual became self-sufficient, and the groups I hunted with were harmed by that - it was more of a random free for all than a strategic hunting party. Sometimes we would take roles, ("I'll heal") and that was more enjoyable, but based on the game mechanics with maxed out chars, it was unnecessary and most groups didn't bother.
I do find it interesting you know exactly what "gaming should NOT be about". I thought the point was to have fun? But please, do tell us all what we should or should not enjoy when playing a game.
Edit - It was too ironic to pass up editing once I saw your quote, UNATCOII. You say "MMO doesn''t mean only Groups/Guilds/PvP gaming. It’s many people playing *different* game styles."
And yet you feel the need to dictate what gaming should and should not be, and what I should and should not enjoy? All I can say is... wow.
I will probably try it out if/when they reopen it, fresh server or not. I only played the bate and a little after launch but never had the time back then. I like some of the ideas in the game, deviating quite a bit from other MMOGs, so I'll want to see how they work out and why.
Naturally, having been down for a while they must have been doing something wrong in the past (game side, service side, marketing side? - I don't know), and I'd like to see whether they fix this. We need MMOGs that are different from the current mainstream ones.
I never played it but the free trial which I quite enjoyed. I'll probably give it a go.
Playing: Xsyon.
Played:
Tried: Ultima Online, Everquest 2, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, Flyff, Perfect World, Silkroad Online, EVE Online, Ryzom.
To always play second fiddle??
Always wanted to be concert master, as that was the best position. And that came by personal best (and practicing damn hard), not by sitting in the back with some buds coasting by.
Oh, and about your remark about my sig: it's there to remind folks like you and devs, that folks do still play solo, and games that have 1/3 content denied them are a disservice to the game. Humans aren't the Borg, ya know.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
poythres, you didn't play the same Ryzom I played. That isn't because I'm a veteran in it; I played low-level alts a lot. You probably just didn't join a guild that was right for you.
- No one ever mastered all of the skills, and due to the sheer time commitment it would require, likely no one ever will.
- An individual can't be entirely self-sufficient (unless they're dual-wielding accounts, and even then the upcoming point about crafting remains true):
=--- Healing spells absolutely do not work on self, leaving only the Self Heal action which has a long cooldown timer. Other defensive actions, such as Melee Protection Aura, have even longer cooldowns.
=--- The casting time/range/cost penalty on heavy armour, coupled with the time it takes to switch out a full set of gear, makes changing roles from melee to caster in the middle of combat impractical. Conversely, changing from caster to melee without switching from your light armour is going to make you a liability more than anything, unless the odds are in your favour and/or you know what you're doing.
If you have highly specialised magic amplifiers, changing between magic types isn't going to be optimally effective, but it works. With relatively generalist amps, casting different magic types is admittedly quite easy and effective.
=--- It used to be said that you can't really solo in Ryzom. You can, with most skills (healing is exclusively group-oriented; the debuff skills must be coupled with similar-level offensive skills, halving the progression rate). But, as the very existence of that rumour/myth demonstrates, it's more difficult than grouping, and at some level ranges for some skills, much moreso.
- Mastering enough crafting and harvesting trees to equip oneself fully with whatever armour or weapons one wants is extremely time-consuming, so most people go to other people for their crafting needs.
- Most of the groups I experienced did set up roles, mainly according to what skills the group members wanted to train at the given time, but at least a healer and a tank and/or damage dealer were always needed. The guilds I have been in mingled level 20s with level 200s, and not only as healers - as long as the higher tanks were doing their jobs, the lowbies could do anything they wanted. At times I saw amazing exercises in player skill, efficiency, and effectiveness.
-----------
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
To always play second fiddle??
Always wanted to be concert master, as that was the best position. And that came by personal best (and practicing damn hard), not by sitting in the back with some buds coasting by.
You differ in your motivations and opinions. Is that so hard to just understand and accept, and to leave be? I can definitely understand both motivations, and it saddens me to see people seemingly taking the position that their own opinion is the "right" or "better" one. :-( (My apologies if I completely misunderstood and you're actually agreeing on both being equally valid.)
I love your profile comment, btw. I think too many forget that the MM in MMO(RP)G only means many people play at the same time, not that they have to play in a group with someone. I firmly believe the majority prefers to spend most of their MMORPG time solo. :-)