Why not just let the player choose his own path... let the player pick what way he wants his character to be played. This could be used as a competitive strategy in pvp aswell as pve. Also, it would expand the market of people interested in the game since it offers almost every type of gameplay.
These type of games already exist.
If you just want to make "atomic farts" all day, you have Second Life, and a few other games like this. You can go and make as many farts as you like. Second Life is a true sandbox, but in the sense that you just do whatever you want all the time. No fun in it really.
*why anyone would want to do this is beyond me but ok.
Then you have the only other sandbox type of game which is EvE. It is space themed, but has no restrictions on gameplay. Isn't level based, and allows a player to follow his own path. Yes it has basic parameters. All games do that is what makes them games. It is also the defining characteristic of a sandbox.
The devs made you a "box" or "parameters" and you get to play in it, without any restrictions on gameplay as long as you stay inside the "box".
Now if your talking about a game with no parameters. Well that isn't a game buddy, that's called REAL LIFE, welcome to it.
Why not just let the player choose his own path... let the player pick what way he wants his character to be played. This could be used as a competitive strategy in pvp aswell as pve. Also, it would expand the market of people interested in the game since it offers almost every type of gameplay.
These type of games already exist.
If you just want to make "atomic farts" all day, you have Second Life, and a few other games like this. You can go and make as many farts as you like. Second Life is a true sandbox, but in the sense that you just do whatever you want all the time. No fun in it really.
*why anyone would want to do this is beyond me but ok.
Then you have the only other sandbox type of game which is EvE. It is space themed, but has no restrictions on gameplay. Isn't level based, and allows a player to follow his own path. Yes it has basic parameters. All games do that is what makes them games. It is also the defining characteristic of a sandbox.
The devs made you a "box" or "parameters" and you get to play in it, without any restrictions on gameplay as long as you stay inside the "box".
Now if your talking about a game with no parameters. Well that isn't a game buddy, that's called REAL LIFE, welcome to it.
Sorry if I mis-explained but thats not what I ment. I don't mean like choosing the actions of your character, of course almost all the games let you do that. I mean to choose the way you want your character to level.
"One form of progression I really don't like, is doing something over and over to raise a skill. Like shooting my bow, raises my bow skill, or swinging my sword raises my sword skill. That, IMO, is retarded, and very unrealistic. It's just an invite for macros to raise skills, and what's the point of that?" you are saying that swinging your sword to get better at it is unrealistic? that just ruins everything you said. swinging your sword to get better at it makes perfect sense. PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT. you ever heard that expression before? nothing you said makes any sense. so you do not like to do things over and over again. welcome to the mmo world. what are quests? THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. like it or not a game is only programed to do only what it is programed to do so you cannot escape this. in the end you will be doing the same thing over and over again. the only thing you got right is what a sandbox game is.
I agree and it seems to me that if you are going to have to do something over and over again at least with a skill system you get the choice of what you want to do over and over again. In a level based game you are forced into the questing/grinding experience and thats the only way to progress in the game.
My first true quest based MMORPG was World of Warcraft. At the time, it did not feel like a grind. But whenever I tried to make alts after I hit max on my main it felt grindy. And ever since woW every quest based game I've ever played felt grindy. only exception was Guild Wars but character advancement is superfast and you can create a max avatar anyway
To me a sandbox game is one that imposes no artificial limits on what you can or can't do in terms of gameplay. This includes character progression, movement around and access to areas in the world, and the ability to use or interact with items and world objects. There will of course be a set of pre-defined "laws of the universe" that govern how things work (gravity, stats on equipment, hit and damage rolls and how stats affect them etc.), but nothing arbitrary like you have to be level 20 before you can wield a red longsword, or a "warrior" can never learn magic, or you have to be level 40 before you can even start to craft or own a house or purchase a horse. I do have a problem with game systems that let you advance in one area of expertise by working another exclusively. While I feel AC is one of the best games ever, it does suffer from this issue. You can mass kill zero challenge drudges with your maxed out War Magic and then use the xp to raise Alchemy or Cooking. If you don't want to limit progression to use of that specific skill, I believe you should at least have multiple pools of xp types, mainly to seperate adventuring from crafting. The way to limit min-maxing is with a limited number of skill points and a huge number of narrow, specific skill choices to spend them on. The catch is that the larger the set of skills, the tougher it becomes to balance. Due to the sheer amount of work and time needed to constantly make balance passes you many times end up with some really critical and widely used skills and others which are considered useless. In short a sandbox game is one in which the devs provide a world and let the players run wild within that world; providing tons of generic content rather than specific "rails" of quests or dungeons or boss mob encounters designed to hold your hand and walk you through progressive areas.
Drev
adding points to a list of predefined skills is not sandbox but pigeon-holeing, there is absolutely no skill in adding points to a list of skills that cannot be altered.
"One form of progression I really don't like, is doing something over and over to raise a skill. Like shooting my bow, raises my bow skill, or swinging my sword raises my sword skill. That, IMO, is retarded, and very unrealistic. It's just an invite for macros to raise skills, and what's the point of that?" you are saying that swinging your sword to get better at it is unrealistic? that just ruins everything you said. swinging your sword to get better at it makes perfect sense. PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT. you ever heard that expression before? nothing you said makes any sense. so you do not like to do things over and over again. welcome to the mmo world. what are quests? THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. like it or not a game is only programed to do only what it is programed to do so you cannot escape this. in the end you will be doing the same thing over and over again. the only thing you got right is what a sandbox game is.
I agree and it seems to me that if you are going to have to do something over and over again at least with a skill system you get the choice of what you want to do over and over again. In a level based game you are forced into the questing/grinding experience and thats the only way to progress in the game.
My first true quest based MMORPG was World of Warcraft. At the time, it did not feel like a grind. But whenever I tried to make alts after I hit max on my main it felt grindy. And ever since woW every quest based game I've ever played felt grindy. only exception was Guild Wars but character advancement is superfast and you can create a max avatar anyway
I acctually think the opposite. WoW felt like such a grind to me. There were only a set number of types of quest if you really think about it. The grind quest " go kill 67 infested worms", the escort quests, the messanger quest "bring this to the guy at the other end of the world" and the hunter quest as I call it " find this at the end of this long dungeon by killing this super boss". Its really all the same basic quest type just with different words and locations.
To me a sandbox game is one that imposes no artificial limits on what you can or can't do in terms of gameplay. This includes character progression, movement around and access to areas in the world, and the ability to use or interact with items and world objects. There will of course be a set of pre-defined "laws of the universe" that govern how things work (gravity, stats on equipment, hit and damage rolls and how stats affect them etc.), but nothing arbitrary like you have to be level 20 before you can wield a red longsword, or a "warrior" can never learn magic, or you have to be level 40 before you can even start to craft or own a house or purchase a horse. I do have a problem with game systems that let you advance in one area of expertise by working another exclusively. While I feel AC is one of the best games ever, it does suffer from this issue. You can mass kill zero challenge drudges with your maxed out War Magic and then use the xp to raise Alchemy or Cooking. If you don't want to limit progression to use of that specific skill, I believe you should at least have multiple pools of xp types, mainly to seperate adventuring from crafting. The way to limit min-maxing is with a limited number of skill points and a huge number of narrow, specific skill choices to spend them on. The catch is that the larger the set of skills, the tougher it becomes to balance. Due to the sheer amount of work and time needed to constantly make balance passes you many times end up with some really critical and widely used skills and others which are considered useless. In short a sandbox game is one in which the devs provide a world and let the players run wild within that world; providing tons of generic content rather than specific "rails" of quests or dungeons or boss mob encounters designed to hold your hand and walk you through progressive areas.
Drev
adding points to a list of predefined skills is not sandbox but pigeon-holeing, there is absolutely no skill in adding points to a list of skills that cannot be altered.
The skill is sort of planning out the templates and how you apply it. I would say the real skill is discovering that right combination of skills.
Sure, it takes no skill to copy a cookie cutter template but there is an exciting thrill one experiences when you discover an uber template that destroys others
Of course, eventually a counter will rise to take you down and then it is back to the drawing board
eventually all builds narrow down to the lowest common denominator... jump+run+dps and building up ac and clickys along the way--- its not rocket science.
eventually all builds narrow down to the lowest common denominator... jump+run+dps and building up ac and clickys along the way--- its not rocket science.
It's not entirely a matter of difficulty for me. It's also a matter of roleplaying and making the game more then just something where you go and compete against eachother in combat. Skill system allows for more freedom in developing your character and roleplaying. I know this isn't important to many, but to me I find it's very important. I would like experience of being a mage who increases their skill with practice and then has to go to far off places and dangerous dungoens to learn that next spell when the time is right.
eventually all builds narrow down to the lowest common denominator... jump+run+dps and building up ac and clickys along the way--- its not rocket science.
no but i have played AC1 Planetside (fps-persistent world) EQ1 bf 2142 (fps)
That's a nice list but play GW if you get a chance. It's based on decks sort to speak. There is a word for this sort of game but the term evades me atm. Has a lot in common with card games
However you are entitled to your opinion. Let's say you are correct but there are no examples of games where I can create my own skill? So you would have to elaborate on your concept. Hopefully one day you will. Or you could keep it to yourself and maybe one day publish it of course
oh and another mentionable game was warcraft II battle.net on player made/hosted pvp fights
Bro you played AC1 so that makes you a vet in any case. So if you say builds suck then its coming from a credible source. I'm willing to let that go because you speaking from point of view of an AC1 player
no but i have played AC1 Planetside (fps-persistent world) EQ1 bf 2142 (fps)
However you are entitled to your opinion. Let's say you are correct but there are no examples of games where I can create my own skill? So you would have to elaborate on your concept. Hopefully one day you will. Or you could keep it to yourself and maybe one day publish it of course
Vajuras, you should look up on Ryzom; it's the only game I know of that let's players customize almost every skill action, even create them from scratch by using building blocks. (power vs credits)
"One form of progression I really don't like, is doing something over and over to raise a skill. Like shooting my bow, raises my bow skill, or swinging my sword raises my sword skill. That, IMO, is retarded, and very unrealistic. It's just an invite for macros to raise skills, and what's the point of that?" you are saying that swinging your sword to get better at it is unrealistic? that just ruins everything you said. swinging your sword to get better at it makes perfect sense. PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT. you ever heard that expression before? nothing you said makes any sense. so you do not like to do things over and over again. welcome to the mmo world. what are quests? THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. like it or not a game is only programed to do only what it is programed to do so you cannot escape this. in the end you will be doing the same thing over and over again. the only thing you got right is what a sandbox game is.
You are correct practice makes perfect. Like practicing to play the clarinet. You'll sound really, really, awful for a long time.
Or practicing to swim. you'll drown if someone isn't there to help you.
Or practicing to to use nunchucks. You'll hit yourself in the head a bunch before you get good.
Or practicing to be a race car driver. you'll wreck a bunch of cars.
Why would I play a game to "practice".
Let's say the game is rock star. you want to "practice" playing the guitar, or you want to play the guitar? I don't want to "practice" in a game, any more than I want to go to the toilet in a game. Both are just as "realistic" and I can do without either one.
I don't mind killing mobs over and over again. That is certainly an MMORPG. But I don't want to do it just to raise a skill, or worry about which skill I'm using, because I want to raise it. Just let me play the game, without "practicing".
no but i have played AC1 Planetside (fps-persistent world) EQ1 bf 2142 (fps)
However you are entitled to your opinion. Let's say you are correct but there are no examples of games where I can create my own skill? So you would have to elaborate on your concept. Hopefully one day you will. Or you could keep it to yourself and maybe one day publish it of course
Vajuras, you should look up on Ryzom; it's the only game I know of that let's players customize almost every skill action, even create them from scratch by using building blocks. (power vs credits)
Ah yes that's true via the Stanza system they called it right? I'll play it when it comes back thanks
To the OP, I honestly think you're being a little too stubborn about the topic to find the answer you seek. At this point, I would have to say it seems like your OP was a rhetorical question, because you don't seem interested into listening to anybody as much as just argueing with them. I hate to say it, but you just don't "get it".
Hi pot. I'm kettle.
I don't understand that expression but, anyway, back to the topic...
You've done a great job of confusing yourself as well as pretty much everyone in this thread. I'm going to attempt to make sense of all of this.
There's basically two major arguements being thrown around here. One is skill-based vs level-based in a sandbox game and the other is skill-based vs class-based system in a sandbox game. I honestly am not quite sure which point you're trying to make but, maybe this will square things out: An ideal sandbox game gives the user freedom in every aspect of the game. That means that a class-based system cannot work in a sandbox game because, the classes dictate your character progression. A level-based system still works in a sandbox game by all means. Level-based and class-based systems are not one in the same, it is just more common to see these two put together than a skill-based system with classes.
Are we good?
This is correct.
Classes = No sandbox - because action is dictated and roles are forced.
Level Base = Sandbox lite - usually not used because it causes restrictions.
Skill Base - Sandbox - Only limited by the time it takes to learn a skill - sending you down your "chosen path". True sandbox design.
Only true sandbox MMO in existence that I know of is EvE Online.
Could they make a game like EVE, but where you play a person, and NOT a spaceship? I might give that a try. However, I don't like the EVE system of progression, where you progress even if you are not playing the game. In that case, here's a years worth of monthly fees, give me a years worth of progression. That's kinda bleh.
And EVE isn't perfect, because there's a grind for money to buy spaceships. You either grind for xp, or you grind for money in these games, so I don't really mind grinding for xp.
I"m really surprised that so many people only care about their character, and don't care about changing the gameworld. THAT, IMO, would be a lot of fun.
Character progression is fun, but it's just progression.
You start at A and you progress to Z. Whether it's levels, or skills, either skill points, or skills that increase with use, it's all just character progression.
I"m really surprised that so many people only care about their character, and don't care about changing the gameworld. THAT, IMO, would be a lot of fun. Character progression is fun, but it's just progression. You start at A and you progress to Z. Whether it's levels, or skills, either skill points, or skills that increase with use, it's all just character progression.
Character progression versus World progression. Would be a great debate to see wich one could be considered more important...
Character Progression depends on a good world and World Progession depends on the characters. It should be a great cycle.
To me any game where you have the ability to not do the linear objectives/story and still be able to play the game is sandbox, like GTA, Spiderman, Hulk, Mercenaries. Has nothing to do with character progression, if there is any, or your ability to effect the game world.
To that point all MMOGs are sandbox to a degree, they may not offer much to do but you could still always not do quests and kill or make things. Unless it is a game that doesn't have quests in which case that is just an open ended world, which is different from a sandbox.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I have always used the term sandbox differently. To me any game where you have the ability to not do the linear objectives/story and still be able to play the game is sandbox, like GTA, Spiderman, Hulk, Mercenaries. Has nothing to do with character progression, if there is any, or your ability to effect the game world. To that point all MMOGs are sandbox to a degree, they may not offer much to do but you could still always not do quests and kill or make things. Unless it is a game that doesn't have quests in which case that is just an open ended world, which is different from a sandbox.
Usually quests in MMO's do not change the gameplay of anyone (maybe your own) so it doesn't make it an MMO just because you have quests. You may be "changing" the world threw a dialogue perspective, (ex:Farmer John: Thanks for getting those apples for me!) but it doesn't show any graphical changes in the game.
Ex: In WoW, Go kill llidan, you kill him, he stll remains there for killing for unlimited times.
To the OP, I honestly think you're being a little too stubborn about the topic to find the answer you seek. At this point, I would have to say it seems like your OP was a rhetorical question, because you don't seem interested into listening to anybody as much as just argueing with them. I hate to say it, but you just don't "get it".
Hi pot. I'm kettle.
I don't understand that expression but, anyway, back to the topic...
You've done a great job of confusing yourself as well as pretty much everyone in this thread. I'm going to attempt to make sense of all of this.
There's basically two major arguements being thrown around here. One is skill-based vs level-based in a sandbox game and the other is skill-based vs class-based system in a sandbox game. I honestly am not quite sure which point you're trying to make but, maybe this will square things out: An ideal sandbox game gives the user freedom in every aspect of the game. That means that a class-based system cannot work in a sandbox game because, the classes dictate your character progression. A level-based system still works in a sandbox game by all means. Level-based and class-based systems are not one in the same, it is just more common to see these two put together than a skill-based system with classes.
Are we good?
This is correct.
Classes = No sandbox - because action is dictated and roles are forced.
Level Base = Sandbox lite - usually not used because it causes restrictions.
Skill Base - Sandbox - Only limited by the time it takes to learn a skill - sending you down your "chosen path". True sandbox design.
Only true sandbox MMO in existence that I know of is EvE Online.
Could they make a game like EVE, but where you play a person, and NOT a spaceship? I might give that a try. However, I don't like the EVE system of progression, where you progress even if you are not playing the game. In that case, here's a years worth of monthly fees, give me a years worth of progression. That's kinda bleh.
And EVE isn't perfect, because there's a grind for money to buy spaceships. You either grind for xp, or you grind for money in these games, so I don't really mind grinding for xp.
<vajuras tries to put on unbiased fanboi hat>
Soon we will get Ambulation patch which should help aid the RP. you will be able to get out and walk around stations
The time based advancement I'm not terribly fond of but its cool to take a break from EVE and come back and your character has improved I admit. So you always have a goal
Technically you dont have to grind for money. I know it sounds that way but there are so many ways to make money I will attempt to list a few:
1) Trade. I do a simple sort of trade I'm not big scale yet. So I go to a market, grab things that sell much higher in another region. Then I haul the goods to that market. I'm AFK the whole time (autopilot). Takes bout 5 mins of actual playtime to generate some ISK
2) professional traders actaully play the market some claim to make Billions in a week
3) Exploration can net big rewards if you get lucky
4) Be a CEO and charge corp taxes and make ISK from that. then tell the members you really are spending it on maintenance
5) 'grow' a character then trade for ISK (some do this)
6) use real money to buy ISK (I did this once or twice its allowed if you do it on forums).
7) many other ways I'm too lazy to list.
Technically the only grind is the passive time based grind
I"m really surprised that so many people only care about their character, and don't care about changing the gameworld. THAT, IMO, would be a lot of fun. Character progression is fun, but it's just progression. You start at A and you progress to Z. Whether it's levels, or skills, either skill points, or skills that increase with use, it's all just character progression.
You mean something like building a tunnel system underneath player made cities? make your own 'den of thieves'? careful not to dig in the wrong area from underneath or a mob would spawn, is that what you are getting at?
I have always used the term sandbox differently. To me any game where you have the ability to not do the linear objectives/story and still be able to play the game is sandbox, like GTA, Spiderman, Hulk, Mercenaries. Has nothing to do with character progression, if there is any, or your ability to effect the game world. To that point all MMOGs are sandbox to a degree, they may not offer much to do but you could still always not do quests and kill or make things. Unless it is a game that doesn't have quests in which case that is just an open ended world, which is different from a sandbox.
This is what wiki "used" to have that I agreed with (I'm going from memory):
1) Player should be able to pursue any career present in the game without restriction
2) Player is free to explore any area of the world at anytime
3) If developer goals are present, the player has the freedom to ignore them.
4) Player should be able to impact the game world via the sandbox toys present in the gameplay
Such a definition would still cover GTA, spiderman, etc because no developer defined careers are present anyway. It would cover UO, EVE while casting out games like WoW, Vanguard, etc
"One form of progression I really don't like, is doing something over and over to raise a skill. Like shooting my bow, raises my bow skill, or swinging my sword raises my sword skill. That, IMO, is retarded, and very unrealistic. It's just an invite for macros to raise skills, and what's the point of that?" you are saying that swinging your sword to get better at it is unrealistic? that just ruins everything you said. swinging your sword to get better at it makes perfect sense. PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT. you ever heard that expression before? nothing you said makes any sense. so you do not like to do things over and over again. welcome to the mmo world. what are quests? THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. like it or not a game is only programed to do only what it is programed to do so you cannot escape this. in the end you will be doing the same thing over and over again. the only thing you got right is what a sandbox game is.
You are correct practice makes perfect. Like practicing to play the clarinet. You'll sound really, really, awful for a long time.
Or practicing to swim. you'll drown if someone isn't there to help you.
Or practicing to to use nunchucks. You'll hit yourself in the head a bunch before you get good.
Or practicing to be a race car driver. you'll wreck a bunch of cars.
Why would I play a game to "practice".
Let's say the game is rock star. you want to "practice" playing the guitar, or you want to play the guitar? I don't want to "practice" in a game, any more than I want to go to the toilet in a game. Both are just as "realistic" and I can do without either one.
I don't mind killing mobs over and over again. That is certainly an MMORPG. But I don't want to do it just to raise a skill, or worry about which skill I'm using, because I want to raise it. Just let me play the game, without "practicing".
Why are you playing and MMORPG? RPG entails character development. You keep insisting that character development is akin to going to the toilet. Leveling from killing mobs is not character development. As I've shown the skill system allows you to roleplay a characater by doing what your character would do. A leveling RPG does not allow this. if you don't like the idea of raising skills then don't play the game that uses them when it comes out. I'm sure there will be people are interested in that aspect of the game.
Comments
These type of games already exist.
If you just want to make "atomic farts" all day, you have Second Life, and a few other games like this. You can go and make as many farts as you like. Second Life is a true sandbox, but in the sense that you just do whatever you want all the time. No fun in it really.
*why anyone would want to do this is beyond me but ok.
Then you have the only other sandbox type of game which is EvE. It is space themed, but has no restrictions on gameplay. Isn't level based, and allows a player to follow his own path. Yes it has basic parameters. All games do that is what makes them games. It is also the defining characteristic of a sandbox.
The devs made you a "box" or "parameters" and you get to play in it, without any restrictions on gameplay as long as you stay inside the "box".
Now if your talking about a game with no parameters. Well that isn't a game buddy, that's called REAL LIFE, welcome to it.
These type of games already exist.
If you just want to make "atomic farts" all day, you have Second Life, and a few other games like this. You can go and make as many farts as you like. Second Life is a true sandbox, but in the sense that you just do whatever you want all the time. No fun in it really.
*why anyone would want to do this is beyond me but ok.
Then you have the only other sandbox type of game which is EvE. It is space themed, but has no restrictions on gameplay. Isn't level based, and allows a player to follow his own path. Yes it has basic parameters. All games do that is what makes them games. It is also the defining characteristic of a sandbox.
The devs made you a "box" or "parameters" and you get to play in it, without any restrictions on gameplay as long as you stay inside the "box".
Now if your talking about a game with no parameters. Well that isn't a game buddy, that's called REAL LIFE, welcome to it.
Sorry if I mis-explained but thats not what I ment. I don't mean like choosing the actions of your character, of course almost all the games let you do that. I mean to choose the way you want your character to level.
Dragon1613 says:asdfasdfafsdfw111111123123123213
-server-Dragon1613 has died
I agree and it seems to me that if you are going to have to do something over and over again at least with a skill system you get the choice of what you want to do over and over again. In a level based game you are forced into the questing/grinding experience and thats the only way to progress in the game.
My first true quest based MMORPG was World of Warcraft. At the time, it did not feel like a grind. But whenever I tried to make alts after I hit max on my main it felt grindy. And ever since woW every quest based game I've ever played felt grindy. only exception was Guild Wars but character advancement is superfast and you can create a max avatar anyway
adding points to a list of predefined skills is not sandbox but pigeon-holeing, there is absolutely no skill in adding points to a list of skills that cannot be altered.
I agree and it seems to me that if you are going to have to do something over and over again at least with a skill system you get the choice of what you want to do over and over again. In a level based game you are forced into the questing/grinding experience and thats the only way to progress in the game.
My first true quest based MMORPG was World of Warcraft. At the time, it did not feel like a grind. But whenever I tried to make alts after I hit max on my main it felt grindy. And ever since woW every quest based game I've ever played felt grindy. only exception was Guild Wars but character advancement is superfast and you can create a max avatar anyway
I acctually think the opposite. WoW felt like such a grind to me. There were only a set number of types of quest if you really think about it. The grind quest " go kill 67 infested worms", the escort quests, the messanger quest "bring this to the guy at the other end of the world" and the hunter quest as I call it " find this at the end of this long dungeon by killing this super boss". Its really all the same basic quest type just with different words and locations.
Dragon1613 says:asdfasdfafsdfw111111123123123213
-server-Dragon1613 has died
adding points to a list of predefined skills is not sandbox but pigeon-holeing, there is absolutely no skill in adding points to a list of skills that cannot be altered.
The skill is sort of planning out the templates and how you apply it. I would say the real skill is discovering that right combination of skills.
Sure, it takes no skill to copy a cookie cutter template but there is an exciting thrill one experiences when you discover an uber template that destroys others
Of course, eventually a counter will rise to take you down and then it is back to the drawing board
eventually all builds narrow down to the lowest common denominator... jump+run+dps and building up ac and clickys along the way--- its not rocket science.
It's not entirely a matter of difficulty for me. It's also a matter of roleplaying and making the game more then just something where you go and compete against eachother in combat. Skill system allows for more freedom in developing your character and roleplaying. I know this isn't important to many, but to me I find it's very important. I would like experience of being a mage who increases their skill with practice and then has to go to far off places and dangerous dungoens to learn that next spell when the time is right.
Did you play Guild Wars?
no but i have played
AC1
Planetside (fps-persistent world)
EQ1
bf 2142 (fps)
That's a nice list but play GW if you get a chance. It's based on decks sort to speak. There is a word for this sort of game but the term evades me atm. Has a lot in common with card games
However you are entitled to your opinion. Let's say you are correct but there are no examples of games where I can create my own skill? So you would have to elaborate on your concept. Hopefully one day you will. Or you could keep it to yourself and maybe one day publish it of course
oh and another mentionable game was warcraft II battle.net on player made/hosted pvp fights
Bro you played AC1 so that makes you a vet in any case. So if you say builds suck then its coming from a credible source. I'm willing to let that go because you speaking from point of view of an AC1 player
However you are entitled to your opinion. Let's say you are correct but there are no examples of games where I can create my own skill? So you would have to elaborate on your concept. Hopefully one day you will. Or you could keep it to yourself and maybe one day publish it of course
Vajuras, you should look up on Ryzom; it's the only game I know of that let's players customize almost every skill action, even create them from scratch by using building blocks. (power vs credits)
You are correct practice makes perfect. Like practicing to play the clarinet. You'll sound really, really, awful for a long time.
Or practicing to swim. you'll drown if someone isn't there to help you.
Or practicing to to use nunchucks. You'll hit yourself in the head a bunch before you get good.
Or practicing to be a race car driver. you'll wreck a bunch of cars.
Why would I play a game to "practice".
Let's say the game is rock star. you want to "practice" playing the guitar, or you want to play the guitar? I don't want to "practice" in a game, any more than I want to go to the toilet in a game. Both are just as "realistic" and I can do without either one.
I don't mind killing mobs over and over again. That is certainly an MMORPG. But I don't want to do it just to raise a skill, or worry about which skill I'm using, because I want to raise it. Just let me play the game, without "practicing".
However you are entitled to your opinion. Let's say you are correct but there are no examples of games where I can create my own skill? So you would have to elaborate on your concept. Hopefully one day you will. Or you could keep it to yourself and maybe one day publish it of course
Vajuras, you should look up on Ryzom; it's the only game I know of that let's players customize almost every skill action, even create them from scratch by using building blocks. (power vs credits)
Ah yes that's true via the Stanza system they called it right? I'll play it when it comes back thanks
Hi pot. I'm kettle.
I don't understand that expression but, anyway, back to the topic...
You've done a great job of confusing yourself as well as pretty much everyone in this thread. I'm going to attempt to make sense of all of this.
There's basically two major arguements being thrown around here. One is skill-based vs level-based in a sandbox game and the other is skill-based vs class-based system in a sandbox game. I honestly am not quite sure which point you're trying to make but, maybe this will square things out: An ideal sandbox game gives the user freedom in every aspect of the game. That means that a class-based system cannot work in a sandbox game because, the classes dictate your character progression. A level-based system still works in a sandbox game by all means. Level-based and class-based systems are not one in the same, it is just more common to see these two put together than a skill-based system with classes.
Are we good?
This is correct.
Classes = No sandbox - because action is dictated and roles are forced.
Level Base = Sandbox lite - usually not used because it causes restrictions.
Skill Base - Sandbox - Only limited by the time it takes to learn a skill - sending you down your "chosen path". True sandbox design.
Only true sandbox MMO in existence that I know of is EvE Online.
Could they make a game like EVE, but where you play a person, and NOT a spaceship? I might give that a try. However, I don't like the EVE system of progression, where you progress even if you are not playing the game. In that case, here's a years worth of monthly fees, give me a years worth of progression. That's kinda bleh.
And EVE isn't perfect, because there's a grind for money to buy spaceships. You either grind for xp, or you grind for money in these games, so I don't really mind grinding for xp.
I"m really surprised that so many people only care about their character, and don't care about changing the gameworld. THAT, IMO, would be a lot of fun.
Character progression is fun, but it's just progression.
You start at A and you progress to Z. Whether it's levels, or skills, either skill points, or skills that increase with use, it's all just character progression.
Character progression versus World progression. Would be a great debate to see wich one could be considered more important...
Character Progression depends on a good world and World Progession depends on the characters. It should be a great cycle.
Dragon1613 says:asdfasdfafsdfw111111123123123213
-server-Dragon1613 has died
I have always used the term sandbox differently.
To me any game where you have the ability to not do the linear objectives/story and still be able to play the game is sandbox, like GTA, Spiderman, Hulk, Mercenaries. Has nothing to do with character progression, if there is any, or your ability to effect the game world.
To that point all MMOGs are sandbox to a degree, they may not offer much to do but you could still always not do quests and kill or make things. Unless it is a game that doesn't have quests in which case that is just an open ended world, which is different from a sandbox.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Usually quests in MMO's do not change the gameplay of anyone (maybe your own) so it doesn't make it an MMO just because you have quests. You may be "changing" the world threw a dialogue perspective, (ex:Farmer John: Thanks for getting those apples for me!) but it doesn't show any graphical changes in the game.
Ex: In WoW, Go kill llidan, you kill him, he stll remains there for killing for unlimited times.
Dragon1613 says:asdfasdfafsdfw111111123123123213
-server-Dragon1613 has died
Hi pot. I'm kettle.
I don't understand that expression but, anyway, back to the topic...
You've done a great job of confusing yourself as well as pretty much everyone in this thread. I'm going to attempt to make sense of all of this.
There's basically two major arguements being thrown around here. One is skill-based vs level-based in a sandbox game and the other is skill-based vs class-based system in a sandbox game. I honestly am not quite sure which point you're trying to make but, maybe this will square things out: An ideal sandbox game gives the user freedom in every aspect of the game. That means that a class-based system cannot work in a sandbox game because, the classes dictate your character progression. A level-based system still works in a sandbox game by all means. Level-based and class-based systems are not one in the same, it is just more common to see these two put together than a skill-based system with classes.
Are we good?
This is correct.
Classes = No sandbox - because action is dictated and roles are forced.
Level Base = Sandbox lite - usually not used because it causes restrictions.
Skill Base - Sandbox - Only limited by the time it takes to learn a skill - sending you down your "chosen path". True sandbox design.
Only true sandbox MMO in existence that I know of is EvE Online.
Could they make a game like EVE, but where you play a person, and NOT a spaceship? I might give that a try. However, I don't like the EVE system of progression, where you progress even if you are not playing the game. In that case, here's a years worth of monthly fees, give me a years worth of progression. That's kinda bleh.
And EVE isn't perfect, because there's a grind for money to buy spaceships. You either grind for xp, or you grind for money in these games, so I don't really mind grinding for xp.
<vajuras tries to put on unbiased fanboi hat>
Soon we will get Ambulation patch which should help aid the RP. you will be able to get out and walk around stations
The time based advancement I'm not terribly fond of but its cool to take a break from EVE and come back and your character has improved I admit. So you always have a goal
Technically you dont have to grind for money. I know it sounds that way but there are so many ways to make money I will attempt to list a few:
1) Trade. I do a simple sort of trade I'm not big scale yet. So I go to a market, grab things that sell much higher in another region. Then I haul the goods to that market. I'm AFK the whole time (autopilot). Takes bout 5 mins of actual playtime to generate some ISK
2) professional traders actaully play the market some claim to make Billions in a week
3) Exploration can net big rewards if you get lucky
4) Be a CEO and charge corp taxes and make ISK from that. then tell the members you really are spending it on maintenance
5) 'grow' a character then trade for ISK (some do this)
6) use real money to buy ISK (I did this once or twice its allowed if you do it on forums).
7) many other ways I'm too lazy to list.
Technically the only grind is the passive time based grind
You mean something like building a tunnel system underneath player made cities? make your own 'den of thieves'? careful not to dig in the wrong area from underneath or a mob would spawn, is that what you are getting at?
This is what wiki "used" to have that I agreed with (I'm going from memory):
1) Player should be able to pursue any career present in the game without restriction
2) Player is free to explore any area of the world at anytime
3) If developer goals are present, the player has the freedom to ignore them.
4) Player should be able to impact the game world via the sandbox toys present in the gameplay
Such a definition would still cover GTA, spiderman, etc because no developer defined careers are present anyway. It would cover UO, EVE while casting out games like WoW, Vanguard, etc
You are correct practice makes perfect. Like practicing to play the clarinet. You'll sound really, really, awful for a long time.
Or practicing to swim. you'll drown if someone isn't there to help you.
Or practicing to to use nunchucks. You'll hit yourself in the head a bunch before you get good.
Or practicing to be a race car driver. you'll wreck a bunch of cars.
Why would I play a game to "practice".
Let's say the game is rock star. you want to "practice" playing the guitar, or you want to play the guitar? I don't want to "practice" in a game, any more than I want to go to the toilet in a game. Both are just as "realistic" and I can do without either one.
I don't mind killing mobs over and over again. That is certainly an MMORPG. But I don't want to do it just to raise a skill, or worry about which skill I'm using, because I want to raise it. Just let me play the game, without "practicing".
Why are you playing and MMORPG? RPG entails character development. You keep insisting that character development is akin to going to the toilet. Leveling from killing mobs is not character development. As I've shown the skill system allows you to roleplay a characater by doing what your character would do. A leveling RPG does not allow this. if you don't like the idea of raising skills then don't play the game that uses them when it comes out. I'm sure there will be people are interested in that aspect of the game.