I can't believe people actually like being led around by a leash in games, I just can't fathom it. I've played everything in the market, including EQ1 now. For me there are 2 things which make a break a game for me. #1 being the freedom of choice, #2 being the community, and with games being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator I'm finding #2 is quickly overtaking #1. Games now days seem to cater to the trailer park trash and the attitudes they bring.
Anyway, I've worked in the MMO industry as a developer, and as in-game/over the phone tech support so I've had a taste of what it takes and the methodology behind making a game and I can honestly say that devs despite all the eye candy and numbers are only making games that make as much money as possible with as few options as possible. Yes I KNOW they make games for money, but you kid yourself if you think they are choosing quality(by any definition of the word) over cash flow.
WoW is ONLY successful because it came from Warcraft, so it immediately had an audience, and because it will run on anything, if you could get it installed on a toaster, it would run on a toaster.
On to development. I've designed a game that is sandbox and quest based with instances. Huge open galaxy, only instances are mission oriented or designed to be special dungeons. 3 individual planes to explore, space, land, and cyberspace with enough game play in each individual area that some players will never need to go to all 3. Living world with actual economy, if you're a pirate and hit an npc line of transports to often then an npc space station WILL eventually fail from lack of supplies. However NPC and dropped items are NOT as good as player made items.
Crafting is important, the best items are all crafted. Everything is or can be crafted. Find a dropped item you like, backwards engineer it, research it, then make it your own as you redesign it and improve on it then manufacture it and sell it. The player ran economy IS genuinely player ran. So much so that individual organizations/clans/alliances once big enough and take over enough territory can start their own currency. The more territory an alliance controls the more valuable their currency is.
Which means yes, you can capture and control entire planets, or glass their surfaces.
10 distinctly different playable races with different philosophies on how things get done, different tastes in weapons. Some races can't use other races crap because of how they're built means that you're not going to see clones, like in SWG with everyone wearing comp armor.
All skill based, no levels. Items are tools, they're not your character like in WoW. You can't suck in my game but still dominate just because you have good equipment.
PvP FFA done RIGHT. If you kill someone there is genuine consequences, players will be notified via a police band if they have it turned on. Turning on the police band automatically flags you as "police", it's not a visible flag though. What this means is you get information on who commits the crime, their last known location and the villian is flagged as killable by any police for 30 days. Some skills will aid you in tracking the criminal, and when the criminal dies they lose some of their items, randomly chosen by the game.
Pvp in the "Fringe" is 100% consentual and doesn't get you flagged. You only get flagged in areas that are considered "Patrolled" and you might get ganked by random NPC police types, or players.
Dieing in pvp can possibly be permanent. Yes, perma-death is back. However, it's done right. Their is a 1 percent chance of perma-death only in pvp. In the "Patrolled Sectors" of space it never gets higher than 1%. However in the fringes of space, using certain weapons can increase this amount up to 5%, dieing certain ways can increase it up to 8% total.(never more than 8%) Meaning certain weapons are designed to disrupt the intelligence transfer used to move your "self" from your dieing body to your clone. Dieing in a core overload from your ship can be so destructive that it's also impossible to some extent to transfer your "self" to a clone.
And if you get bored of playing the game, how about sims in space? Get hitched, have a family, and depending on the amount of effort YOU CHOOSE to put into this, if you ever perma-die in pvp you can assume the role of one of your family members with stats near equal to your own in some respects, or at the very least you don't start completely over. Plus family can be kidnapped, or hear information while shopping that might lead you to new jobs, or info on your current job. Or you might have a crazy kid that likes to hack or whatever. As in life, your family does what they want and it can be hell to raise a family. If YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO. Players can marry each other, or you can marry npcs. Their are advantages to marrying players, but more randomness happens when marrying an npc. Female players that choose to get pregnant will appear to be pregnant. (doesn't actualy effect anything but appearance) Ehh, no you can't do/see anything about sex, you just choose pregnancy.
Although the game will start with 10 races, more will be unlocked later depending on the above. Hybrids of different races will eventually come to pass if enough players participate. Want a human/Mon'Za hybrid, marry one and make babies. If you die you can then take over one of your kids. If enough people have hybrid kids eventually everyone can choose one at player creation. Some races aren't compatible with anyone but their own race. But most are capable of interbreeding.
Build space stations, own planets, player made and owned homes. Space, Land, and cyberspace, build anything, destroy anything. Make or break an economy.
I've been working on this game for years and years, I can promise you beyond any shadow of a doubt, that if I could get funding and get this game produced it would slaughter WoW. I'm an old school programmer, I still believe in quality over any and all other options. I'd rather go bankrupt then release a piece of software that doesn't do exactly what I say it does.
However, it takes money I don't, and will never have. It's all ready to roll, just need the backing to actually start programming it from the dozens of notebooks of numbers, rules, and information I've written.
If anyone is interested in more information shoot me a message and I'll answer any questions you have. I will not reply to flames and people stupid enough to nitpick on some things I've stated when I've not even remotely fleshed out these things.
To the poster above ^, I think that sounds like a very cool game. Awesome concept. But you should leave out the trailing "will beat WoW" sentence because it's silly and wrong. That is like saying some company will design a superior OS and suddently "beat Microsoft." Hah, impossible. Well, the 5 or 10% of the market who use Linux will say their product does indeed beat Microsoft...however, after a decade or more with this "superior product," they STILL have only 5 or 10% of the market.
So, no matter how great your game is, you will not de-throne Blizzard. However, you could become very competitive with them in the North American and European market... No hope for Asia, though; Blizzard has a lock on that continent.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
To the poster above ^, I think that sounds like a very cool game. Awesome concept. But you should leave out the trailing "will beat WoW" sentence because it's silly and wrong. That is like saying some company will design a superior OS and suddently "beat Microsoft." Hah, impossible. Well, the 5 or 10% of the market who use Linux will say their product does indeed beat Microsoft...however, after a decade or more with this "superior product," they STILL have only 5 or 10% of the market. So, no matter how great your game is, you will not de-throne Blizzard. However, you could become very competitive with them in the North American and European market... No hope for Asia, though; Blizzard has a lock on that continent.
Nothing is ever set in stone, and anything is possible.
All it takes is a good game and word of mouth and people will exit WoW in droves. All the people I know personally play WoW because they're comfortable with it, and it's better than what is out ATM.
As far as Macrohard and doors are concerned. There are better products out, but as in gaming, nobody is willing to risk developing for anything other than MS, so MS reigns supreme even though it is an inferior product.
People get comfortable with crap, its that simple.
to the OP - you are certainly not alone, i completely agree. UO was my introduction into the mmorpg world and it was fantastic at the time, DAoC was the only other notable experience, more linear but a whole lot more open than the current trend.
If i win the lottery thats what i will do with the cash
I was never a big fan of crafting. I'm not even sure what game has an excellent crafting system, besides early DAoC. Every other game it seems pointless, as you can find much better items killing mobs.
Housing? No. That doesn't appeal to me in the least. I don't get so involved in a game that I need to buy a house, and decorate it for no one to see.
The thing I don't like about MMOs anymore is it seems to be solo until you are high enough level to raid. What ever happened to grouping? It seems to have died with EQ and DAoC.
Don't even get me started on this stupid quest grind. There are some good ones to be sure. I'd much rather have a questline that last for a few levels, or the entire game/expansion, though. I rememeber back when I played EQ Kunark came out, there was some storyline about Firona Vie being kidnapped. Do you think there were any quest about that? Nope. They didn't even finish the story. They just up, and created another expansion about some gnomes finding a new continent. ADD much?
If we are going to be playing MMOs solo up until the raiding starts, can we have a story? Or do I have to kill 5 billion bears, snakes, and pigs?
! used to play many mmos like EvE EQ WoW GW, quest quest and more quests thats what bores me more on those mmos, i was like giving up on mmos when i found real fun on those rvr korean games, im actually playing a game called neo steam and hell those "korean grinders" like u guyz call are really fun and actually i dont have to spend a buck on this, those games actually entertainme more than any of those p2p mmos, when i want to do quest i do quest, when i want to have some fun with friends raiding another nation map we go for it, when we want to have some fun killing mobs to get some money we do, well i dont do mining coz i dun like xD and hell how its good to have a fight with enemys while u are grinding or when u/em are atacking castle, i dont expect anything good from darkfall actually they are trying to make the perfect MMO i wonder how much bandswitch it will take and the lag it will have, actually u should give a try to those korean grinders i never though those would be so fun be4 i downloaded and tested, actually fun in games arent based on who made it, its more likely the way u play it...
Why is the MMO industry turning away players like me ? Why arent they trying to make games that appeal to players for longer than 3 months ? Its turning into a fastfood instant gratification theme that only appeals to the lowest common denominator. In short, its being dumbed down. Is it really so difficult to make a virtual world sandbox MMO with decent crafting that isnt an afterthought ? Are seamless open worlds impossible to code now ? Why is housing, something we took for granted in earlier MMO's now not included in the latest ones ? Why so much focus on combat ? The MMO industry has abandoned me
Do you really have to ask? It is very simple. You are in the niche minority.
People LIKE quests. People LIKE instances. I would much much rather play a good hack-n-slash quest-based MMO (WOW ... yeah) than a sandbox open-ended nothing to do game.
Sandbox is NOT difficult to make. It has been tried and failed to take-off. No one wants a seamless open world that everyone has to wait in line to kill teh mob. EQ taught us that instances is a GOOD thing.
The issue of housing is simple. I would much rather the developer spend their time to make new dungeons & new quests than give me a house. What do we do there? Just stare around at stuff?
Games focus on combat because HACK-N-SLASH is what players want. Diablo has pretty much succinctly demonstrated that point.
This is the GOLDEN AGE of MMORPGs. I don't have to put up with UO gangfest, EQ campfest and I can solo whenever I want. Well, if you don't like it, that is too bad but you can't turn back the clock.
Nari, I believe you are mistaken. The reason so many companies are making WoW-clones is not because "a majority of customers want easy hack-n-slash gameplay. " THE reason is because of WoW. They think WoW's success is simply game design. Wrong. WoW's success is due to the Blizzard brand name; respected by millions of gamers worldwide; especially Asia. It was an easy game which means it was also accessible.
Look at all the failed MMOs like POBS, AoC, even Vanguard. Yes even Vanguard emulated WoW in that you did linear quests which formed the bulk of your xp gain. What these companies fail to realize is that linear, easy gameplay is not what made WoW great. Once enough MMO launches fail, maybe folks will start to learn the lesson.
I think AoC sells a ton in the first week ... so the jury is still out for that one.
Do you really have to ask? It is very simple. You are in the niche minority. People LIKE quests. People LIKE instances. I would much much rather play a good hack-n-slash quest-based MMO (WOW ... yeah) than a sandbox open-ended nothing to do game. Sandbox is NOT difficult to make. It has been tried and failed to take-off. No one wants a seamless open world that everyone has to wait in line to kill teh mob. EQ taught us that instances is a GOOD thing. The issue of housing is simple. I would much rather the developer spend their time to make new dungeons & new quests than give me a house. What do we do there? Just stare around at stuff? Games focus on combat because HACK-N-SLASH is what players want. Diablo has pretty much succinctly demonstrated that point. This is the GOLDEN AGE of MMORPGs. I don't have to put up with UO gangfest, EQ campfest and I can solo whenever I want. Well, if you don't like it, that is too bad but you can't turn back the clock.
Pray tell, what sandboxes have been tried and failed? If you say Vanguard then Hippies in 1960 caused the gravity on Pluto to change.
SWG, UO & Eve are sandbox games and even at the high point, they are serving a very small market (sub-million).
SWG, UO & Eve are sandbox games and even at the high point, they are serving a very small market (sub-million).
It's the nature of those games in and of themselves.
UO has had it's time in the light. Back when it was big MMOs weren't very well known. The audience for MMOs was not in place. After MMOs became popular UO was already dated.
Eve's biggest problem is it's boring as hell. The majority of people that try it can't get past the first few hours of game play because of the nature of ti's traveling. Jumping 5-10 sectors takes 30 minutes or more. The crafting is long and drawn out, and then theirs gate campers. Eve fails because it is not even remotely friendly.
SWG's failing was that it was star wars. I know a lot of people that played it just because it was star wars, and I know even more that refused to play because of that same reason. Then their were the bugs, the horrid customer service, and the fact it was exceptionally hard to get to run.
Using those games as examples without thought to the why-fores or here-to's doesn't go so well when you actually put some thought into it.
I have played theme-park games for the last few years--EQ, EQ2, CoH, WoW, Lotro, VG, and AoC--and I know that my friends and I are ready for something new. Theme-park games are just too linear for my taste, with so many class, level, and zone restrictions, which tend to shoe-box you into a certain direction over and over with each alt you play. To be honest, its gotten tedious...and the typical fetch x, kill y, collect z quests have gotten boring. These games often offer strategic raiding as the end-game carrot. While raiding may be fun the first few times while you are figuring out the instance, it becomes formulaic and boring after that.
Missed out on UO, and never played Eve, or SWG because im not such a big fan of Sci-Fi type games. But I think I would be interested in, or at least like to try, a fantasy based sandbox game, such as Darkfall or Mortal Online. I suspect that there are many in my shoes, I know my friends are.
Whether Darkfall and Mortal Online can deliver on their promises remains to be seen. But if there is to be a true next-generation of MMO's I suspect it will be some type of sandbox game, and not just a variation on the theme-park genre. All that is needed is one successful sandbox game to set the pace, by garnishing a substantial player base, and many copy cats will follow. At the very least, we need alternatives to the tried and true, but increasingly boring, theme-park venue.
I was looking for a game that I could play for the years to come, and the best match to my wishlist was Vanguard.
I agree that Vanguard isnt a sandbox game. I certainly miss PvP as a real game element in it. And there is nothing you can conquer or build in the world itself, except a single house per account.
The OP has very big expectations about a MMO, it seems. Not that there isnt a lot I would have wanted to have too. But currently, all we get is a flood of WoW clones. Even Vanguard is a kind of WoW clone, in many respects, especially with the changes they introduced after SOE took over.
Maybe one day there will be a great sandbox game out there, but at the moment, not so much.
To the poster above ^, I think that sounds like a very cool game. Awesome concept. But you should leave out the trailing "will beat WoW" sentence because it's silly and wrong. That is like saying some company will design a superior OS and suddently "beat Microsoft." Hah, impossible.
Actually Microsoft has been beaten by about every OS out there. OS/2, MacOS, AmigaDOS, BeOS, Linux, BSD... you name it, its better than the Windows crap that existed at the same time (for some of these OS are now past).
Microsoft did not won because of quality, it won because of their practices.
WoW isnt like that, people really play it because they like playing it. And therefore, someday people will stop playing it, just like they stopped playing Tomb Raider, Comand and Conquer, Baldurs Gate, and all the other big hits of past times, before.
Comments
The good ol' days of SWG, how I miss thee.
I can't believe people actually like being led around by a leash in games, I just can't fathom it. I've played everything in the market, including EQ1 now. For me there are 2 things which make a break a game for me. #1 being the freedom of choice, #2 being the community, and with games being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator I'm finding #2 is quickly overtaking #1. Games now days seem to cater to the trailer park trash and the attitudes they bring.
Anyway, I've worked in the MMO industry as a developer, and as in-game/over the phone tech support so I've had a taste of what it takes and the methodology behind making a game and I can honestly say that devs despite all the eye candy and numbers are only making games that make as much money as possible with as few options as possible. Yes I KNOW they make games for money, but you kid yourself if you think they are choosing quality(by any definition of the word) over cash flow.
WoW is ONLY successful because it came from Warcraft, so it immediately had an audience, and because it will run on anything, if you could get it installed on a toaster, it would run on a toaster.
On to development. I've designed a game that is sandbox and quest based with instances. Huge open galaxy, only instances are mission oriented or designed to be special dungeons. 3 individual planes to explore, space, land, and cyberspace with enough game play in each individual area that some players will never need to go to all 3. Living world with actual economy, if you're a pirate and hit an npc line of transports to often then an npc space station WILL eventually fail from lack of supplies. However NPC and dropped items are NOT as good as player made items.
Crafting is important, the best items are all crafted. Everything is or can be crafted. Find a dropped item you like, backwards engineer it, research it, then make it your own as you redesign it and improve on it then manufacture it and sell it. The player ran economy IS genuinely player ran. So much so that individual organizations/clans/alliances once big enough and take over enough territory can start their own currency. The more territory an alliance controls the more valuable their currency is.
Which means yes, you can capture and control entire planets, or glass their surfaces.
10 distinctly different playable races with different philosophies on how things get done, different tastes in weapons. Some races can't use other races crap because of how they're built means that you're not going to see clones, like in SWG with everyone wearing comp armor.
All skill based, no levels. Items are tools, they're not your character like in WoW. You can't suck in my game but still dominate just because you have good equipment.
PvP FFA done RIGHT. If you kill someone there is genuine consequences, players will be notified via a police band if they have it turned on. Turning on the police band automatically flags you as "police", it's not a visible flag though. What this means is you get information on who commits the crime, their last known location and the villian is flagged as killable by any police for 30 days. Some skills will aid you in tracking the criminal, and when the criminal dies they lose some of their items, randomly chosen by the game.
Pvp in the "Fringe" is 100% consentual and doesn't get you flagged. You only get flagged in areas that are considered "Patrolled" and you might get ganked by random NPC police types, or players.
Dieing in pvp can possibly be permanent. Yes, perma-death is back. However, it's done right. Their is a 1 percent chance of perma-death only in pvp. In the "Patrolled Sectors" of space it never gets higher than 1%. However in the fringes of space, using certain weapons can increase this amount up to 5%, dieing certain ways can increase it up to 8% total.(never more than 8%) Meaning certain weapons are designed to disrupt the intelligence transfer used to move your "self" from your dieing body to your clone. Dieing in a core overload from your ship can be so destructive that it's also impossible to some extent to transfer your "self" to a clone.
And if you get bored of playing the game, how about sims in space? Get hitched, have a family, and depending on the amount of effort YOU CHOOSE to put into this, if you ever perma-die in pvp you can assume the role of one of your family members with stats near equal to your own in some respects, or at the very least you don't start completely over. Plus family can be kidnapped, or hear information while shopping that might lead you to new jobs, or info on your current job. Or you might have a crazy kid that likes to hack or whatever. As in life, your family does what they want and it can be hell to raise a family. If YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO. Players can marry each other, or you can marry npcs. Their are advantages to marrying players, but more randomness happens when marrying an npc. Female players that choose to get pregnant will appear to be pregnant. (doesn't actualy effect anything but appearance) Ehh, no you can't do/see anything about sex, you just choose pregnancy.
Although the game will start with 10 races, more will be unlocked later depending on the above. Hybrids of different races will eventually come to pass if enough players participate. Want a human/Mon'Za hybrid, marry one and make babies. If you die you can then take over one of your kids. If enough people have hybrid kids eventually everyone can choose one at player creation. Some races aren't compatible with anyone but their own race. But most are capable of interbreeding.
Build space stations, own planets, player made and owned homes. Space, Land, and cyberspace, build anything, destroy anything. Make or break an economy.
I've been working on this game for years and years, I can promise you beyond any shadow of a doubt, that if I could get funding and get this game produced it would slaughter WoW. I'm an old school programmer, I still believe in quality over any and all other options. I'd rather go bankrupt then release a piece of software that doesn't do exactly what I say it does.
However, it takes money I don't, and will never have. It's all ready to roll, just need the backing to actually start programming it from the dozens of notebooks of numbers, rules, and information I've written.
If anyone is interested in more information shoot me a message and I'll answer any questions you have. I will not reply to flames and people stupid enough to nitpick on some things I've stated when I've not even remotely fleshed out these things.
Want a taste of religion? Lick a witch.
To the poster above ^, I think that sounds like a very cool game. Awesome concept. But you should leave out the trailing "will beat WoW" sentence because it's silly and wrong. That is like saying some company will design a superior OS and suddently "beat Microsoft." Hah, impossible. Well, the 5 or 10% of the market who use Linux will say their product does indeed beat Microsoft...however, after a decade or more with this "superior product," they STILL have only 5 or 10% of the market.
So, no matter how great your game is, you will not de-throne Blizzard. However, you could become very competitive with them in the North American and European market... No hope for Asia, though; Blizzard has a lock on that continent.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
All it takes is a good game and word of mouth and people will exit WoW in droves. All the people I know personally play WoW because they're comfortable with it, and it's better than what is out ATM.
As far as Macrohard and doors are concerned. There are better products out, but as in gaming, nobody is willing to risk developing for anything other than MS, so MS reigns supreme even though it is an inferior product.
People get comfortable with crap, its that simple.
Want a taste of religion? Lick a witch.
to the OP - you are certainly not alone, i completely agree. UO was my introduction into the mmorpg world and it was fantastic at the time, DAoC was the only other notable experience, more linear but a whole lot more open than the current trend.
If i win the lottery thats what i will do with the cash
I was never a big fan of crafting. I'm not even sure what game has an excellent crafting system, besides early DAoC. Every other game it seems pointless, as you can find much better items killing mobs.
Housing? No. That doesn't appeal to me in the least. I don't get so involved in a game that I need to buy a house, and decorate it for no one to see.
The thing I don't like about MMOs anymore is it seems to be solo until you are high enough level to raid. What ever happened to grouping? It seems to have died with EQ and DAoC.
Don't even get me started on this stupid quest grind. There are some good ones to be sure. I'd much rather have a questline that last for a few levels, or the entire game/expansion, though. I rememeber back when I played EQ Kunark came out, there was some storyline about Firona Vie being kidnapped. Do you think there were any quest about that? Nope. They didn't even finish the story. They just up, and created another expansion about some gnomes finding a new continent. ADD much?
If we are going to be playing MMOs solo up until the raiding starts, can we have a story? Or do I have to kill 5 billion bears, snakes, and pigs?
MMOs just seem to be lacking adventure now.
! used to play many mmos like EvE EQ WoW GW, quest quest and more quests thats what bores me more on those mmos, i was like giving up on mmos when i found real fun on those rvr korean games, im actually playing a game called neo steam and hell those "korean grinders" like u guyz call are really fun and actually i dont have to spend a buck on this, those games actually entertainme more than any of those p2p mmos, when i want to do quest i do quest, when i want to have some fun with friends raiding another nation map we go for it, when we want to have some fun killing mobs to get some money we do, well i dont do mining coz i dun like xD and hell how its good to have a fight with enemys while u are grinding or when u/em are atacking castle, i dont expect anything good from darkfall actually they are trying to make the perfect MMO i wonder how much bandswitch it will take and the lag it will have, actually u should give a try to those korean grinders i never though those would be so fun be4 i downloaded and tested, actually fun in games arent based on who made it, its more likely the way u play it...
just my opnion
WAR is coming...all hope is not lost yet!
Do you really have to ask? It is very simple. You are in the niche minority.
People LIKE quests. People LIKE instances. I would much much rather play a good hack-n-slash quest-based MMO (WOW ... yeah) than a sandbox open-ended nothing to do game.
Sandbox is NOT difficult to make. It has been tried and failed to take-off. No one wants a seamless open world that everyone has to wait in line to kill teh mob. EQ taught us that instances is a GOOD thing.
The issue of housing is simple. I would much rather the developer spend their time to make new dungeons & new quests than give me a house. What do we do there? Just stare around at stuff?
Games focus on combat because HACK-N-SLASH is what players want. Diablo has pretty much succinctly demonstrated that point.
This is the GOLDEN AGE of MMORPGs. I don't have to put up with UO gangfest, EQ campfest and I can solo whenever I want. Well, if you don't like it, that is too bad but you can't turn back the clock.
Nari, I believe you are mistaken. The reason so many companies are making WoW-clones is not because "a majority of customers want easy hack-n-slash gameplay. " THE reason is because of WoW. They think WoW's success is simply game design. Wrong. WoW's success is due to the Blizzard brand name; respected by millions of gamers worldwide; especially Asia. It was an easy game which means it was also accessible.
Look at all the failed MMOs like POBS, AoC, even Vanguard. Yes even Vanguard emulated WoW in that you did linear quests which formed the bulk of your xp gain. What these companies fail to realize is that linear, easy gameplay is not what made WoW great. Once enough MMO launches fail, maybe folks will start to learn the lesson.
I think AoC sells a ton in the first week ... so the jury is still out for that one.
Pray tell, what sandboxes have been tried and failed? If you say Vanguard then Hippies in 1960 caused the gravity on Pluto to change.
SWG, UO & Eve are sandbox games and even at the high point, they are serving a very small market (sub-million).
SWG, UO & Eve are sandbox games and even at the high point, they are serving a very small market (sub-million).
It's the nature of those games in and of themselves.UO has had it's time in the light. Back when it was big MMOs weren't very well known. The audience for MMOs was not in place. After MMOs became popular UO was already dated.
Eve's biggest problem is it's boring as hell. The majority of people that try it can't get past the first few hours of game play because of the nature of ti's traveling. Jumping 5-10 sectors takes 30 minutes or more. The crafting is long and drawn out, and then theirs gate campers. Eve fails because it is not even remotely friendly.
SWG's failing was that it was star wars. I know a lot of people that played it just because it was star wars, and I know even more that refused to play because of that same reason. Then their were the bugs, the horrid customer service, and the fact it was exceptionally hard to get to run.
Using those games as examples without thought to the why-fores or here-to's doesn't go so well when you actually put some thought into it.
Want a taste of religion? Lick a witch.
I have played theme-park games for the last few years--EQ, EQ2, CoH, WoW, Lotro, VG, and AoC--and I know that my friends and I are ready for something new. Theme-park games are just too linear for my taste, with so many class, level, and zone restrictions, which tend to shoe-box you into a certain direction over and over with each alt you play. To be honest, its gotten tedious...and the typical fetch x, kill y, collect z quests have gotten boring. These games often offer strategic raiding as the end-game carrot. While raiding may be fun the first few times while you are figuring out the instance, it becomes formulaic and boring after that.
Missed out on UO, and never played Eve, or SWG because im not such a big fan of Sci-Fi type games. But I think I would be interested in, or at least like to try, a fantasy based sandbox game, such as Darkfall or Mortal Online. I suspect that there are many in my shoes, I know my friends are.
Whether Darkfall and Mortal Online can deliver on their promises remains to be seen. But if there is to be a true next-generation of MMO's I suspect it will be some type of sandbox game, and not just a variation on the theme-park genre. All that is needed is one successful sandbox game to set the pace, by garnishing a substantial player base, and many copy cats will follow. At the very least, we need alternatives to the tried and true, but increasingly boring, theme-park venue.
I was looking for a game that I could play for the years to come, and the best match to my wishlist was Vanguard.
I agree that Vanguard isnt a sandbox game. I certainly miss PvP as a real game element in it. And there is nothing you can conquer or build in the world itself, except a single house per account.
The OP has very big expectations about a MMO, it seems. Not that there isnt a lot I would have wanted to have too. But currently, all we get is a flood of WoW clones. Even Vanguard is a kind of WoW clone, in many respects, especially with the changes they introduced after SOE took over.
Maybe one day there will be a great sandbox game out there, but at the moment, not so much.
Microsoft did not won because of quality, it won because of their practices.
WoW isnt like that, people really play it because they like playing it. And therefore, someday people will stop playing it, just like they stopped playing Tomb Raider, Comand and Conquer, Baldurs Gate, and all the other big hits of past times, before.