Well first off, I could say what is the point of buying a game, subscribing to said game only to not actually PLAY the game? You set up your botting program and go to work to come back 10 levels higher? Uh, what's the point of that? If you lack patience play Guild Wars you can make a lvl 20 right off the bat and start a-whacking people in pvp. The second issue is that "it doesn't hurt anyone" attitude. When devs design say a resource, they make the nodes spawn at a certain rate and have X amount of resources based off the assumption that a player will take some but eventually move on. Botting means the resource is farmed 100% and is essentially useless to me. The bot has forced me to look elsewhere. Sure I've spent sometimes an hour or 2 farming a specific resource, but I've only done that occasionally not everyday 24/7 like can be done with botting programs. If you feel that the game is "wasting" your life then I am baffled as to why you are paying to play it in the first place. Logoff and go see the kids in the garden, take em to the movie. That's great, is what people should do. Yet, to say the game is wasting my time yet I need to level ASAP seems contradictory. You hate the game, but have to level. It's a waste of time yet you have to keep it running as much as possible. Umm... huh? If blizzard wins this "scuffle" it can have an affect on botters. It's one thing to just get your account banned but to get fined or possible criminal charges filed against you is another thing. I've said it before and will say again. People who bot or use "hax" will always rationalize that what they are doing is A-Ok because the game "makes" them do it since it is "broken". Digital Denial at it's finest.
For one, you are putting "bots" and "OMGHAX" in the same category. Both are different and you seem like an intelligent person so you should be able to spot the differences. Ok, now that is out of the way. Bots seem to help the economy more than hurt it. A good portion of the farmers on WoW are people in business to make real money. Now, if Blizzard would focus on the gold sellers, that would take care of the imbalances throught the economy. Attacking Merc and his Glider program is not the issue here. Theoretically, if Blizzard wins their argument against Merc, the economy is still going to be ruined. Glider has not ruined the economy of World of Warcraft. It's the players that offset the balance by buying Gold from gold sellers. I have never purchased gold from a gold seller, because that would be wrong. Now the chick that posted a Craigslist posting trading sex for 5000g so she could buy her mount should have been banned immediately, but Blizzard didn't do it. Again, If glider was hacking the WoW subsystem, hooking into it and changing the game (i.e. speed hacks, teleport hacks, exloitation hacks), I can see where your arguement would have merit, but as it stands right now, Glider is not a "Hacking" tool. It does not gain advantage over World of Warcraft. It's not a private program that only a few people use so the general public has access to it and is freely available to anyone that wants to use it.
So what have we learned from this, and i'm speaking to the ones that honestly think Glider is a "hacking tool". This is what you have learned.
1> Glider does not Bend the rules by changing the game, increasing stats, teleporting, exploits the rules in Blizzards programming. (I'm also leaving the TOS/EULA out of this discussion because the EULA and TOS can be changed, formatted, worded to whatever Blizzard decides)
2> Glider does not hook into the executables or the subsystem thereby Glider is not breaking any "copyright infringements" or "reverse engineering".
3> Glider does nothing more than push buttons and reads data. Glider's reading of data is no different than a 3rd party mod like CTRA, oRA or Big Wigs.
4> I think for most of you against Glider are having morality issues with its use more than economic issues. Basic ignorance is no excuse to think you are right which reminds me of the Salem Witch Trials. Learn your "enemy" and discover your own morality but do not base your decision off of ignorance. If you don't know what Glider really does, then the only enemy here is ignorance.
If all glider does is read data coming from the WoW client no different than other third party mods and mashes the appropriate button. Then the only rules Glider is breaking is the button pushing part. Now if this is the case, what makes glider any different than having your 10 year old brother mash the buttons for you while you go on a date with your girlfriend? See where Anti-Gliders have a problem with this? See where Gliders have a problem with this? So the answer to this legal debate is morality. What do you consider moral and at what extreme ( 1-10 ) you consider Glider to be a threat to your World of Warcraft experience.
First off Bots and "hax" are, in a way, in the same category. They are both prohibited by the EULA that everyone clicked "I Agree" to before they played. They do different things, the former automates your character for you while the other is like a "cheat code", but both share the same prohibition. Use either your account gets suspended or banned.
The statement about it "helps" the economy tells me that either (1) you use these yourself or (2) you don't understand why they are bad. The businesses that run these (mostly in China) pay their employees only pay equivalent to a few dollars per day. The child sweatshops now have competition for the worst job to have. There have been many news reports on this by the BBC and american media.
Saying players help "balance" this by buying the gold is like saying "two wrongs make it right", which isn't the case. I've already stated why it is bad for the ingame economy. Whether you believe me or not on that is irrelevant since it states in the EULA, don't buy it. You buy gold and get caught your character goes POOF. No if's, and's or but's about it.
Now glider programs DO change the game. They automate gameplay functions that are supposed to be controlled by the player. This gives that player and advantage over other players. The game is designed with the intent that people will play the game in a certain way for a certain time, by automating it (or botting) you are getting around this design feature. It's like if I find a glitch the terrain that allows me to attack mobs without getting hit back. I haven't used a hack, no mod of the code, yet I am exploiting and can be suspended if caught.
I said it previously, people who bot , use gliders, hax or whatever you want to call it will rationalize that what they do is A-OK. Doesn't matter that they clicked "I Agree" to not do it, in their mind they aren't hurting anyone, the game is too "hard" or any number of excuses. Somehow I don't think that will fly when they try to get their account back after Blizzard catches them. Morality has nothing to do with it, that comment was definately a head-scratcher.
Digital Denial, could be a new psychology phenomenon.
First off Bots and "hax" are, in a way, in the same category. They are both prohibited by the EULA that everyone clicked "I Agree" to before they played. They do different things, the former automates your character for you while the other is like a "cheat code", but both share the same prohibition. Use either your account gets suspended or banned. The statement about it "helps" the economy tells me that either (1) you use these yourself or (2) you don't understand why they are bad. The businesses that run these (mostly in China) pay their employees only pay equivalent to a few dollars per day. The child sweatshops now have competition for the worst job to have. There have been many news reports on this by the BBC and american media. Saying players help "balance" this by buying the gold is like saying "two wrongs make it right", which isn't the case. I've already stated why it is bad for the ingame economy. Whether you believe me or not on that is irrelevant since it states in the EULA, don't buy it. You buy gold and get caught your character goes POOF. No if's, and's or but's about it. Now glider programs DO change the game. They automate gameplay functions that are supposed to be controlled by the player. This gives that player and advantage over other players. The game is designed with the intent that people will play the game in a certain way for a certain time, by automating it (or botting) you are getting around this design feature. It's like if I find a glitch the terrain that allows me to attack mobs without getting hit back. I haven't used a hack, no mod of the code, yet I am exploiting and can be suspended if caught. I said it previously, people who bot , use gliders, hax or whatever you want to call it will rationalize that what they do is A-OK. Doesn't matter that they clicked "I Agree" to not do it, in their mind they aren't hurting anyone, the game is too "hard" or any number of excuses. Somehow I don't think that will fly when they try to get their account back after Blizzard catches them. Morality has nothing to do with it, that comment was definately a head-scratcher. Digital Denial, could be a new psychology phenomenon.
Bots and Hax are in no way related. Again, you are not reading what I posted nor does it seem you understand the difference between the two. Again, Ignorance plays the trump. Also, you are bringing the EULA/TOS into this again. It's real easy for people to Hide behind EULAs and TOS's. Microsoft has been doing that for years. Think you own your copy of XP or Vista? Think again. Of course they share the same prohibition. That's the only thing you got right in your statement. Again, you are quoting the EULA and that was something I was staying away from.
About Glider helping the economy, yes it does. People out botting and they pick up a piece of armor or weapon that they really don't have a use for. They pick it up and take it to the Auction house. Let's just say it's a Krol Blade. Ok, the botter looks on the Auction house and sees 15 krol blades up for 700g as the lowest price. The botter then concludes that he received the weapon fairly easily, so i'm gonna make this a deal. He sells it for 200g. What have we learned here. That the economy was ruined? No. We have 2 happy parties. Transaction was made. The botter used no Hax to acquire the weapon, he received the weapon in the normal course of the game, as if he were sitting in the chair playing for 12 hours straight. Catch my point?
Saying Glider changes the game is so far off from the truth. This is what most of you are saying. Glider in NO way changes the game. I can't really say anymore on this particular subject, because quite honestly, the truth hurts and you can speculate all you like on this.
The morality statement I made should be a "head-scratcher" to anyone that agrees that the Salem Witch Trials were performed of sound mind and intelligence. Just as I had stated. There's no reason for Anti-gliders to be shrouded in a veil of ignorance.
I would have to say that Digital Denial, as you so eloquently stated, has been around for a long time. Remember MP3's? Remember Trading warez as a hobby, not for profit, in the 80's? Your stance on this subject is not swaying me. I really stand firm on this subject. When I see botters in game, I leave them alone because I know if I go to the Auction House, I'm going to receive a fair price for what i'm looking for, instead of an Inflated price by someone such as yourself who's sat in front of their computer for 32 hours straight and got a Purple and you feel dignified to mark that Item up based on your own incompetence to take out the trash because you had to run kara. See my point Hombre?
First off Bots and "hax" are, in a way, in the same category. They are both prohibited by the EULA that everyone clicked "I Agree" to before they played. They do different things, the former automates your character for you while the other is like a "cheat code", but both share the same prohibition. Use either your account gets suspended or banned.
You're right as far as you go. Both hax and bots are disallowed by the EULA and your account will likely be banned if you are caught using them. However, Blizzard isn't going after users of bots. In this case, they are trying to abuse copyright in order to go after the maker of Glider. Based on my understanding (I've never used or read up on Glider), Glider has (or could have) perfectly valid uses outside of botting WoW since it is just an automated button masher (ex. it could be a simple automated software testing tool).
Abusing copyright to file lawsuits should be illegal - Vivendi/Blizzard know they have no grounds under copyright (or even the terrible DMCA) but they're hoping to get copyright expanded via the courts. This is bad for every consumer of any digital media (especially when they are trying to get the "copy in memory" argument in again after it was thrown out of court before by using a slightly different circumstance).
Personally, I'm against bot programs but I thought Blizzard had a great opportunity with their addon system. Of course, instead of incorporating the popular addons that "gave an advantage" so everyone could use them, they broke them. If WoW still allowed the addons it did pre-path 10, I would probably still be playing (BuffAhoy, SmartPet, FeedPet, etc).
There were also some very nifty addons that were broken earlier (path 6 I think) including one where (with a ton of initial time investment to setup the paths) you could automate runs (nothing else - just movement). That was a great addon and inventive but Blizzard decided (as per normal) to break it rather than make it standard or allow it.
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About Glider helping the economy, yes it does. People out botting and they pick up a piece of armor or weapon that they really don't have a use for. They pick it up and take it to the Auction house. Let's just say it's a Krol Blade. Ok, the botter looks on the Auction house and sees 15 krol blades up for 700g as the lowest price. The botter then concludes that he received the weapon fairly easily, so i'm gonna make this a deal. He sells it for 200g. What have we learned here. That the economy was ruined? No. We have 2 happy parties. Transaction was made. The botter used no Hax to acquire the weapon, he received the weapon in the normal course of the game, as if he were sitting in the chair playing for 12 hours straight. Catch my point?
It does hurt the in game economy to an extent, because it closes the gap between demand and rarity of items. I'm not sure if it hurts the in game economy to the degree of being a sufficient argument for the banning of bots. However, it does create a huge real world economic damage by reducing playing time of players and increasing the need of development time in attempting to stay ahead of player progression. Their are also concerns of using bots for more evem more gratuitous exploits or malevolent reasons such as Virsus/worms, DDoS, spaming, Bandwith Sucking/harvesting, hiding ISP.
Not only does WOW have everyright to limit bots when using their servers, but should for it's own protection, protection of it's player base and protection to the longevity of it's game.
About Glider helping the economy, yes it does. People out botting and they pick up a piece of armor or weapon that they really don't have a use for. They pick it up and take it to the Auction house. Let's just say it's a Krol Blade. Ok, the botter looks on the Auction house and sees 15 krol blades up for 700g as the lowest price. The botter then concludes that he received the weapon fairly easily, so i'm gonna make this a deal. He sells it for 200g. What have we learned here. That the economy was ruined? No. We have 2 happy parties. Transaction was made. The botter used no Hax to acquire the weapon, he received the weapon in the normal course of the game, as if he were sitting in the chair playing for 12 hours straight. Catch my point?
It does hurt the in game economy to an extent, because it closes the gap between demand and rarity of items. I'm not sure if it hurts the in game economy to the degree of being a sufficient argument for the banning of bots. However, it does create a huge real world economic damage by reducing playing time of players and increasing the need of development time in attempting to stay ahead of player progression. Their are also concerns of using bots for more evem more gratuitous exploits or malevolent reasons such as Virsus/worms, DDoS, spaming, Bandwith Sucking/harvesting, hiding ISP.
Not only does WOW have everyright to limit bots when using their servers, but should for it's own protection, protection of it's player base and protection to the longevity of it's game.
Point well taken and I agree on certain aspects of this. But, I doubt that Glider or its users actually harm the economy. Since Merc has produced Glider, there have been no viruses, spam, worms, DDoS, bandwidth sucking, harvesting and hiding ISP/Block IP. Merc also states in his FAQ and has so since he began and that is that by using Glider, you are breaking Blizzard's EULA. Anyone that has ever downloaded Glider and used it and got banned knew the risks of the EULA. Glider is not hurting Blizzards economy but rather increasing thier economy by banning the botters on a technicality so the botters will have to buy a new account. If Glider wasn't a threat to Blizzard's warden, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it seems Merc may be onto something and that is a few raised eyebrows at Blizzard because they are not fully able to detect Glider. I would say about 80% of all the Bans on WoW have been from mere speculation. I think if Blizzard could indeed detect Glider 100% of the time, they wouldn't be pursing this legally.
Of course Blizzard reserves the right to uphold their EULA, they made the EULA and of course they are going to stand by it, but keep in mind I didn't start using Glider until I got banned for using it, keep in mind that before I got my Banstick email from blizzard, I had not used any third party programs. Yea, I was the one that got banned while using Linux. Except the difference between me and the others that got their accounts back was that I was using Wine and not Cedega so there wasn't "proof" I was using a Windows emulator. Screw Blizzard and all they stand for and may the bots live on.
About Glider helping the economy, yes it does. People out botting and they pick up a piece of armor or weapon that they really don't have a use for. They pick it up and take it to the Auction house. Let's just say it's a Krol Blade. Ok, the botter looks on the Auction house and sees 15 krol blades up for 700g as the lowest price. The botter then concludes that he received the weapon fairly easily, so i'm gonna make this a deal. He sells it for 200g. What have we learned here. That the economy was ruined? No. We have 2 happy parties. Transaction was made. The botter used no Hax to acquire the weapon, he received the weapon in the normal course of the game, as if he were sitting in the chair playing for 12 hours straight. Catch my point?
It does hurt the in game economy to an extent, because it closes the gap between demand and rarity of items. I'm not sure if it hurts the in game economy to the degree of being a sufficient argument for the banning of bots. However, it does create a huge real world economic damage by reducing playing time of players and increasing the need of development time in attempting to stay ahead of player progression. Their are also concerns of using bots for more evem more gratuitous exploits or malevolent reasons such as Virsus/worms, DDoS, spaming, Bandwith Sucking/harvesting, hiding ISP.
Not only does WOW have everyright to limit bots when using their servers, but should for it's own protection, protection of it's player base and protection to the longevity of it's game.
Point well taken and I agree on certain aspects of this. But, I doubt that Glider or its users actually harm the economy. Since Merc has produced Glider, there have been no viruses, spam, worms, DDoS, bandwidth sucking, harvesting and hiding ISP/Block IP. Merc also states in his FAQ and has so since he began and that is that by using Glider, you are breaking Blizzard's EULA. Anyone that has ever downloaded Glider and used it and got banned knew the risks of the EULA. Glider is not hurting Blizzards economy but rather increasing thier economy by banning the botters on a technicality so the botters will have to buy a new account. If Glider wasn't a threat to Blizzard's warden, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it seems Merc may be onto something and that is a few raised eyebrows at Blizzard because they are not fully able to detect Glider. I would say about 80% of all the Bans on WoW have been from mere speculation. I think if Blizzard could indeed detect Glider 100% of the time, they wouldn't be pursing this legally.
Of course Blizzard reserves the right to uphold their EULA, they made the EULA and of course they are going to stand by it, but keep in mind I didn't start using Glider until I got banned for using it, keep in mind that before I got my Banstick email from blizzard, I had not used any third party programs. Yea, I was the one that got banned while using Linux. Except the difference between me and the others that got their accounts back was that I was using Wine and not Cedega so there wasn't "proof" I was using a Windows emulator. Screw Blizzard and all they stand for and may the bots live on.
i doubt glider is using bots in such a way as well, but that hardly matters. If WOW legally (or at least to protect themselves from civil suits) has to enforce their rules throughout.
The idea that banning accounts = extra revenue is pretty weak, I can't believe that you actually believe that it begins to make up for the countless of play hours they steal from WOW.
I understand from your point of veiw, but by using bots people are essentually stealing subscription time and costing Blizzard more production money. Getting mad at Blizzard because they are trying to protect their finacial rights and security of their product customers is more then a bit self-envolved.
i doubt glider is using bots in such a way as well, but that hardly matters. If WOW legally (or at least to protect themselves from civil suits) has to enforce their rules throughout.
The idea that banning accounts = extra revenue is pretty weak, I can't believe that you actually believe that it begins to make up for the countless of play hours they steal from WOW. I understand from your point of veiw, but by using bots people are essentually stealing subscription time and costing Blizzard more production money. Getting mad at Blizzard because they are trying to protect their finacial rights and security of their product customers is more then a bit self-envolved.
See, that argument I don't understand. Botters are wasting subscription time and production money. Ok, let's take the 1st one and disseminate it.
"Botters are stealing Subscription time" -- By this, you mean taking up a slot on the server that's meant for a Real player. Ok, the Yin and Yang of this is that in one aspect, you're right and int he other you're wrong. Sure it's taking up a slot that a real player could be playing or want to play but on the other hand it's still a paid subscriber to Blizzard's system. Botters are not playing for free. They paid for the Game, the expansion and the monthly fee just like any other ordinary person. The difference is the botters choose to mow their lawn, take out the trash, paint the house, work on the car or even go to work. Glider to me is like having a fat brother that has nothing else better to do than to play your account while you do other things.
"Botters are costing Blizzard production time" -- By this, you mean Blizzard is wasting human resources tracking down botters, investigating suspect botters and the like? Well, since day 1 of the server opening (and this was before Glider existed), there is a team of what we in the Unix field like to call "Admins" or Sysops. These people are paid a yearly salary to see that the game is being played fairly and to support players when they get stuck, getting harassed and even people suspected of cheating or better words are suspected of violating the EULA. These "SysOps" work in rotation answering cries for help 24/7 (sometimes). They will always be there if Glider existed or not. That's what they are paid to do. Now for them to take resources out of the New Expansion production team to handle investigations of player problems, from a business point of view, is highly stupid. I would expect better CTO management to come out of Blizzard. Sounds to me like the SysOps feel like they "Arent' getting paid for the job they perform". This also sound more like an excuse and they are ripening their legal battle for the Judge to favor for Blizzard seeing as the last 2 battles with Merc didn't go so well as the Judge shooed Blizzard away. Also, I've worked in a large server farm data center before so I know first hand what really goes on in a Data Center. Sounds like to me like Blizzard is trying to pull Aces out of their sleeve but they keep pulling Jokers. It wouldn't surprise me if the Judge shoots Blizzard back down and makes them stay down by awarding Merc with a reverse settlement from Blizzard for wasting Merc's time and the Court's time.
Logistically, Merc is not stealing money from Blizzard. Merc puts out a very fine piece of software that does exactly what it's expected to do. Save you time. Give a person a gun and sure enough a Gun will kill you, but Guns don't kill people, People kill people.
Well, Since I seem to be the only "user" of glider who has posted here, I guess I will share my thoughts and reasoning not only behind my motives for glider but the majority of it's other users as well.
As in most MMO games, but this is more so in WoW, the game sucks to high heavens until max level.
Who honestly wants to kill 1 million wolves in a row to level? NOT I !!
So what do we do to remedy this issue. We download glider so we can go do other constructive things with our time, and let the button masher kill the 1 million wolves for us. WoW is a mindless, endless series of stupid quest, and treadmill kill missions all the way to 70.
What do the gliders do with their loot, as suggested we place it on the AH for reduced pricing as compared to all the insane people asking 100g for 1 piece of linen cloth.
Gliders do not hurt anyone in the game. If your argument is that because a glider is spending more than a normal person should in a certain zone, forcing you to go elsewhere. This isn't a botter issue, this is a blizzard issue. They should have made their world larger so you had ample places to grind also.
The waypoints that glider uses, are in very remote regions of the world itself, and odds are these places have little to no traffic in them to begin with. The entire point behind the "waypoints" is not to be seen, not be noticed or make it extremely difficult for others to identify you as a glider. Now that being said, it stands to reason that gliders shouldn't be affecting your popular leveling spots. They use very remote unpopular leveling spots.
The way I look at it is this, it's a morality issue. Some people have no issues at all bypassing the ridiculous parts of a game. Other will say you need to play these mind-numbing parts to actually play the game.
This is all a matter of opinion. You have read that to me, in my opinion, WoW is not fun until 70. This is the outlook of A LOT of people. We decided to not waste our time with wolves and have a program kill them for us. Until we hit 70 and can actually play the fun parts of the game.
My problem with this entire thing was this.
You have a game company suing a guy who made a program who can press keys on your keyboard without you ever having to touch it. Blizzard is wanting to shut this man down because he is what? Smart, Intelligent, creative?
The day you start letting game companies or companies in general dictate someones creativity, and on top of that start to dictate what the average consumer can and cannot use on their personal computers at home, it is a sad day in the world.
A song a long time ago had a lyric, "The day the music died". Scary to think about it really, what would happen if you could never hear music again in the world?
Now apply that lyric to this. "The day creativity died". I would really hate to see the day that no one ever tried to create something new in the world anymore for the fear of being sued and shut down.
See, that argument I don't understand. Botters are wasting subscription time and production money. Ok, let's take the 1st one and disseminate it.
"Botters are stealing Subscription time" -- By this, you mean taking up a slot on the server that's meant for a Real player. Ok, the Yin and Yang of this is that in one aspect, you're right and int he other you're wrong. Sure it's taking up a slot that a real player could be playing or want to play but on the other hand it's still a paid subscriber to Blizzard's system. Botters are not playing for free. They paid for the Game, the expansion and the monthly fee just like any other ordinary person. The difference is the botters choose to mow their lawn, take out the trash, paint the house, work on the car or even go to work. Glider to me is like having a fat brother that has nothing else better to do than to play your account while you do other things. "
Actually that's not even close to what I meant. I already explained this previously. By useing bot's that can farm 24/7 to aquire items and selling them to players, players are alot less likely to explore content (or explor it as often) at a rate 15-30 hours a week. Taking up a server slot is irrelevent, although I disagree that botters aren't playing for free...many of them I am sure use trial accounts.
"Botters are costing Blizzard production time" -- By this, you mean Blizzard is wasting human resources tracking down botters, investigating suspect botters and the like? Well, since day 1 of the server opening (and this was before Glider existed), there is a team of what we in the Unix field like to call "Admins" or Sysops. These people are paid a yearly salary to see that the game is being played fairly and to support players when they get stuck, getting harassed and even people suspected of cheating or better words are suspected of violating the EULA. These "SysOps" work in rotation answering cries for help 24/7 (sometimes). They will always be there if Glider existed or not. That's what they are paid to do. Now for them to take resources out of the New Expansion production team to handle investigations of player problems, from a business point of view, is highly stupid. I would expect better CTO management to come out of Blizzard. Sounds to me like the SysOps feel like they "Arent' getting paid for the job they perform". This also sound more like an excuse and they are ripening their legal battle for the Judge to favor for Blizzard seeing as the last 2 battles with Merc didn't go so well as the Judge shooed Blizzard away. Also, I've worked in a large server farm data center before so I know first hand what really goes on in a Data Center. Sounds like to me like Blizzard is trying to pull Aces out of their sleeve but they keep pulling Jokers. It wouldn't surprise me if the Judge shoots Blizzard back down and makes them stay down by awarding Merc with a reverse settlement from Blizzard for wasting Merc's time and the Court's time. Logistically, Merc is not stealing money from Blizzard. Merc puts out a very fine piece of software that does exactly what it's expected to do. Save you time. Give a person a gun and sure enough a Gun will kill you, but Guns don't kill people, People kill people.
I do think that is an aspect of it, but again I already stated why this is and your no where close to what I said. Because botters are aquiring items and gold at a rate of 24/7 it makes it less likely that players are going to spend as much time on exsisting content that means production of new content has to be produced faster to keep players involved.
It's also partly why bot grinding hurts economy. It gives people who use such tech a disproportional amount of in game cash. Elevating the cost of items Proportional to the amount of bot farmers. These alienates players who don't/won't use such tech and don't/won't spend real money to purchase in game items (wich is after all how the game was designed to be played). Thus even further dropping subscriptions.
As for Merc that is the same argument Napster made, and in the same analogy if you sell a gun to a person knowing or having a strong suspicion that they intend harm, you have a certain amount of liability. Turning a blind eye to crime dosen't mean you are not an accomplice.
Well, Since I seem to be the only "user" of glider who has posted here, I guess I will share my thoughts and reasoning not only behind my motives for glider but the majority of it's other users as well. As in most MMO games, but this is more so in WoW, the game sucks to high heavens until max level. Who honestly wants to kill 1 million wolves in a row to level? NOT I !!
While you will see from my posts I believe (and hope) blizzard will fail. (simply from a legal point of view, the precedent that the case would set is scary.)
Having said that imo (and it is only an opinion) the game starts sucking hard the higher level you get. By 70 its world of item/honour/faction grind. Open pvp would fix things....kill a bot today. By max level its really repetitive .
btw I tried glider and the open source job just so I knew what I was talking about..
This is last comment I'll make on this thread as posters either (1) don't understand what I'm saying or (2) are just in denial.
Bots and Hax are related in that they are both prohibited. I know their functionality is different, that's not the point. Use either and you are risking an account suspension or ban. Hax directly manipulate the code, while bots do it "behind the scenes" by automating gameplay features. Again, they function differently but both are prohibited by the agreement you clicked "I Agree" to before you logged in.
Gliding certainately hurts the economy and it seems I've found someone in denial about it. As I stated before, resources are designed to be in the game in certain quantities with the assumption that a player will take some... then move on. By using automation, that area is farmed constantly thus depleting it to lower than designed for levels. People who used to play Lineage 2 understand this too.
By comparing me to a "salem witch hunter" you have devolved from constructive commentary and resorted to a plain insult. I had a RL friend who used a glider, I warned him what would happen if he got caught but otherwise didn't affect how I felt about him. When he did get his account banned I gave him the "I told you so speech" but again other than that had no affect on how I felt about him. I did not report him, go after him or any other "witch hunt" tactics you seem to imply.
Finally, the whole concept of a glider is rather odd if one stops and thinks about it. They say they don't have time to play, yet set up a program to play 24/7 so they can come back and not have to play much? The game is "flawed" or "broken" so the glider "fixes" the leveling for them. If the game is so poorly made, why is one still paying to play it? Glide all the way to 70 and it is also possible one could not fully understand how to play their character, which could become problematic running instances.
Drow what you say may or may be true. So what? We have not missed your point, your point is irrelevant . Prohibited does not mean illegal. This thread is about Blizzards legal battle. It really does set all sorts of frightening precedent.
Drow what you say may or may be true. So what? We have not missed your point, your point is irrelevant . Prohibited does not mean illegal. This thread is about Blizzards legal battle. It really does set all sorts of frightening precedent.
Yes back to topic, despite the glider right or wrong discussion.
This is about a powerhouse company blizzard, literally attacking one mans intelligence and creativity.
This man' s program could be used for MANY automated applications, people just chose to utilize it as a way to free up their time in the game world of warcraft.
When you start trying to shut down people's freedom to create in the world for the power of the almighty dollar, which is exactly what this is all about, blizzard thinks they might miss a buck, then you start tapping in and taking away man's basic freedoms.
Example and I will go off the wall with it because it is fun.
I create a spring that attaches to the heel of a basketball shoe. This special "Spring Heel" would allow any user to jump 6 inches higher than he would normally be able to.
Now comes along Nike. Nike has those retarded looking shoes with the "springs" in the heel already, I am sure people have seen them. Now Nike takes me to court saying that I stole an Idea from them and try to sue me.
Nike's "spring" is purely cosmetic on the shoe as to my invention allows players of the game to jump higher. Are basketball players now cheating because I allow them to jump slightly higher? Should I be sued and shut down because I had the intellect to invent something useful to this particular group of people?
Well if blizzard wins this, that is exactly what they are doing. Shutting down someone for being smarter than they are. Shutting down someone with creativity.
When the justice system starts putting dollars signs over mankinds creative thought, it is a sad day in the world.
Comments
For one, you are putting "bots" and "OMGHAX" in the same category. Both are different and you seem like an intelligent person so you should be able to spot the differences. Ok, now that is out of the way. Bots seem to help the economy more than hurt it. A good portion of the farmers on WoW are people in business to make real money. Now, if Blizzard would focus on the gold sellers, that would take care of the imbalances throught the economy. Attacking Merc and his Glider program is not the issue here. Theoretically, if Blizzard wins their argument against Merc, the economy is still going to be ruined. Glider has not ruined the economy of World of Warcraft. It's the players that offset the balance by buying Gold from gold sellers. I have never purchased gold from a gold seller, because that would be wrong. Now the chick that posted a Craigslist posting trading sex for 5000g so she could buy her mount should have been banned immediately, but Blizzard didn't do it. Again, If glider was hacking the WoW subsystem, hooking into it and changing the game (i.e. speed hacks, teleport hacks, exloitation hacks), I can see where your arguement would have merit, but as it stands right now, Glider is not a "Hacking" tool. It does not gain advantage over World of Warcraft. It's not a private program that only a few people use so the general public has access to it and is freely available to anyone that wants to use it.
So what have we learned from this, and i'm speaking to the ones that honestly think Glider is a "hacking tool". This is what you have learned.
1> Glider does not Bend the rules by changing the game, increasing stats, teleporting, exploits the rules in Blizzards programming. (I'm also leaving the TOS/EULA out of this discussion because the EULA and TOS can be changed, formatted, worded to whatever Blizzard decides)
2> Glider does not hook into the executables or the subsystem thereby Glider is not breaking any "copyright infringements" or "reverse engineering".
3> Glider does nothing more than push buttons and reads data. Glider's reading of data is no different than a 3rd party mod like CTRA, oRA or Big Wigs.
4> I think for most of you against Glider are having morality issues with its use more than economic issues. Basic ignorance is no excuse to think you are right which reminds me of the Salem Witch Trials. Learn your "enemy" and discover your own morality but do not base your decision off of ignorance. If you don't know what Glider really does, then the only enemy here is ignorance.
If all glider does is read data coming from the WoW client no different than other third party mods and mashes the appropriate button. Then the only rules Glider is breaking is the button pushing part. Now if this is the case, what makes glider any different than having your 10 year old brother mash the buttons for you while you go on a date with your girlfriend? See where Anti-Gliders have a problem with this? See where Gliders have a problem with this? So the answer to this legal debate is morality. What do you consider moral and at what extreme ( 1-10 ) you consider Glider to be a threat to your World of Warcraft experience.
First off Bots and "hax" are, in a way, in the same category. They are both prohibited by the EULA that everyone clicked "I Agree" to before they played. They do different things, the former automates your character for you while the other is like a "cheat code", but both share the same prohibition. Use either your account gets suspended or banned.
The statement about it "helps" the economy tells me that either (1) you use these yourself or (2) you don't understand why they are bad. The businesses that run these (mostly in China) pay their employees only pay equivalent to a few dollars per day. The child sweatshops now have competition for the worst job to have. There have been many news reports on this by the BBC and american media.
Saying players help "balance" this by buying the gold is like saying "two wrongs make it right", which isn't the case. I've already stated why it is bad for the ingame economy. Whether you believe me or not on that is irrelevant since it states in the EULA, don't buy it. You buy gold and get caught your character goes POOF. No if's, and's or but's about it.
Now glider programs DO change the game. They automate gameplay functions that are supposed to be controlled by the player. This gives that player and advantage over other players. The game is designed with the intent that people will play the game in a certain way for a certain time, by automating it (or botting) you are getting around this design feature. It's like if I find a glitch the terrain that allows me to attack mobs without getting hit back. I haven't used a hack, no mod of the code, yet I am exploiting and can be suspended if caught.
I said it previously, people who bot , use gliders, hax or whatever you want to call it will rationalize that what they do is A-OK. Doesn't matter that they clicked "I Agree" to not do it, in their mind they aren't hurting anyone, the game is too "hard" or any number of excuses. Somehow I don't think that will fly when they try to get their account back after Blizzard catches them. Morality has nothing to do with it, that comment was definately a head-scratcher.
Digital Denial, could be a new psychology phenomenon.
Wow!!
About Glider helping the economy, yes it does. People out botting and they pick up a piece of armor or weapon that they really don't have a use for. They pick it up and take it to the Auction house. Let's just say it's a Krol Blade. Ok, the botter looks on the Auction house and sees 15 krol blades up for 700g as the lowest price. The botter then concludes that he received the weapon fairly easily, so i'm gonna make this a deal. He sells it for 200g. What have we learned here. That the economy was ruined? No. We have 2 happy parties. Transaction was made. The botter used no Hax to acquire the weapon, he received the weapon in the normal course of the game, as if he were sitting in the chair playing for 12 hours straight. Catch my point?
Saying Glider changes the game is so far off from the truth. This is what most of you are saying. Glider in NO way changes the game. I can't really say anymore on this particular subject, because quite honestly, the truth hurts and you can speculate all you like on this.
The morality statement I made should be a "head-scratcher" to anyone that agrees that the Salem Witch Trials were performed of sound mind and intelligence. Just as I had stated. There's no reason for Anti-gliders to be shrouded in a veil of ignorance.
I would have to say that Digital Denial, as you so eloquently stated, has been around for a long time. Remember MP3's? Remember Trading warez as a hobby, not for profit, in the 80's? Your stance on this subject is not swaying me. I really stand firm on this subject. When I see botters in game, I leave them alone because I know if I go to the Auction House, I'm going to receive a fair price for what i'm looking for, instead of an Inflated price by someone such as yourself who's sat in front of their computer for 32 hours straight and got a Purple and you feel dignified to mark that Item up based on your own incompetence to take out the trash because you had to run kara. See my point Hombre?
You're right as far as you go. Both hax and bots are disallowed by the EULA and your account will likely be banned if you are caught using them. However, Blizzard isn't going after users of bots. In this case, they are trying to abuse copyright in order to go after the maker of Glider. Based on my understanding (I've never used or read up on Glider), Glider has (or could have) perfectly valid uses outside of botting WoW since it is just an automated button masher (ex. it could be a simple automated software testing tool).
Abusing copyright to file lawsuits should be illegal - Vivendi/Blizzard know they have no grounds under copyright (or even the terrible DMCA) but they're hoping to get copyright expanded via the courts. This is bad for every consumer of any digital media (especially when they are trying to get the "copy in memory" argument in again after it was thrown out of court before by using a slightly different circumstance).
Personally, I'm against bot programs but I thought Blizzard had a great opportunity with their addon system. Of course, instead of incorporating the popular addons that "gave an advantage" so everyone could use them, they broke them. If WoW still allowed the addons it did pre-path 10, I would probably still be playing (BuffAhoy, SmartPet, FeedPet, etc).
There were also some very nifty addons that were broken earlier (path 6 I think) including one where (with a ton of initial time investment to setup the paths) you could automate runs (nothing else - just movement). That was a great addon and inventive but Blizzard decided (as per normal) to break it rather than make it standard or allow it.
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Ban his account and move on. Dont junk up the courts with this video game BS.
Not only does WOW have everyright to limit bots when using their servers, but should for it's own protection, protection of it's player base and protection to the longevity of it's game.
It does hurt the in game economy to an extent, because it closes the gap between demand and rarity of items. I'm not sure if it hurts the in game economy to the degree of being a sufficient argument for the banning of bots. However, it does create a huge real world economic damage by reducing playing time of players and increasing the need of development time in attempting to stay ahead of player progression. Their are also concerns of using bots for more evem more gratuitous exploits or malevolent reasons such as Virsus/worms, DDoS, spaming, Bandwith Sucking/harvesting, hiding ISP.Not only does WOW have everyright to limit bots when using their servers, but should for it's own protection, protection of it's player base and protection to the longevity of it's game.
Point well taken and I agree on certain aspects of this. But, I doubt that Glider or its users actually harm the economy. Since Merc has produced Glider, there have been no viruses, spam, worms, DDoS, bandwidth sucking, harvesting and hiding ISP/Block IP. Merc also states in his FAQ and has so since he began and that is that by using Glider, you are breaking Blizzard's EULA. Anyone that has ever downloaded Glider and used it and got banned knew the risks of the EULA. Glider is not hurting Blizzards economy but rather increasing thier economy by banning the botters on a technicality so the botters will have to buy a new account. If Glider wasn't a threat to Blizzard's warden, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it seems Merc may be onto something and that is a few raised eyebrows at Blizzard because they are not fully able to detect Glider. I would say about 80% of all the Bans on WoW have been from mere speculation. I think if Blizzard could indeed detect Glider 100% of the time, they wouldn't be pursing this legally.
Of course Blizzard reserves the right to uphold their EULA, they made the EULA and of course they are going to stand by it, but keep in mind I didn't start using Glider until I got banned for using it, keep in mind that before I got my Banstick email from blizzard, I had not used any third party programs. Yea, I was the one that got banned while using Linux. Except the difference between me and the others that got their accounts back was that I was using Wine and not Cedega so there wasn't "proof" I was using a Windows emulator. Screw Blizzard and all they stand for and may the bots live on.
Not only does WOW have everyright to limit bots when using their servers, but should for it's own protection, protection of it's player base and protection to the longevity of it's game.
Point well taken and I agree on certain aspects of this. But, I doubt that Glider or its users actually harm the economy. Since Merc has produced Glider, there have been no viruses, spam, worms, DDoS, bandwidth sucking, harvesting and hiding ISP/Block IP. Merc also states in his FAQ and has so since he began and that is that by using Glider, you are breaking Blizzard's EULA. Anyone that has ever downloaded Glider and used it and got banned knew the risks of the EULA. Glider is not hurting Blizzards economy but rather increasing thier economy by banning the botters on a technicality so the botters will have to buy a new account. If Glider wasn't a threat to Blizzard's warden, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it seems Merc may be onto something and that is a few raised eyebrows at Blizzard because they are not fully able to detect Glider. I would say about 80% of all the Bans on WoW have been from mere speculation. I think if Blizzard could indeed detect Glider 100% of the time, they wouldn't be pursing this legally.
Of course Blizzard reserves the right to uphold their EULA, they made the EULA and of course they are going to stand by it, but keep in mind I didn't start using Glider until I got banned for using it, keep in mind that before I got my Banstick email from blizzard, I had not used any third party programs. Yea, I was the one that got banned while using Linux. Except the difference between me and the others that got their accounts back was that I was using Wine and not Cedega so there wasn't "proof" I was using a Windows emulator. Screw Blizzard and all they stand for and may the bots live on.
i doubt glider is using bots in such a way as well, but that hardly matters. If WOW legally (or at least to protect themselves from civil suits) has to enforce their rules throughout.
The idea that banning accounts = extra revenue is pretty weak, I can't believe that you actually believe that it begins to make up for the countless of play hours they steal from WOW.
I understand from your point of veiw, but by using bots people are essentually stealing subscription time and costing Blizzard more production money. Getting mad at Blizzard because they are trying to protect their finacial rights and security of their product customers is more then a bit self-envolved.
"Botters are stealing Subscription time" -- By this, you mean taking up a slot on the server that's meant for a Real player. Ok, the Yin and Yang of this is that in one aspect, you're right and int he other you're wrong. Sure it's taking up a slot that a real player could be playing or want to play but on the other hand it's still a paid subscriber to Blizzard's system. Botters are not playing for free. They paid for the Game, the expansion and the monthly fee just like any other ordinary person. The difference is the botters choose to mow their lawn, take out the trash, paint the house, work on the car or even go to work. Glider to me is like having a fat brother that has nothing else better to do than to play your account while you do other things.
"Botters are costing Blizzard production time" -- By this, you mean Blizzard is wasting human resources tracking down botters, investigating suspect botters and the like? Well, since day 1 of the server opening (and this was before Glider existed), there is a team of what we in the Unix field like to call "Admins" or Sysops. These people are paid a yearly salary to see that the game is being played fairly and to support players when they get stuck, getting harassed and even people suspected of cheating or better words are suspected of violating the EULA. These "SysOps" work in rotation answering cries for help 24/7 (sometimes). They will always be there if Glider existed or not. That's what they are paid to do. Now for them to take resources out of the New Expansion production team to handle investigations of player problems, from a business point of view, is highly stupid. I would expect better CTO management to come out of Blizzard. Sounds to me like the SysOps feel like they "Arent' getting paid for the job they perform". This also sound more like an excuse and they are ripening their legal battle for the Judge to favor for Blizzard seeing as the last 2 battles with Merc didn't go so well as the Judge shooed Blizzard away. Also, I've worked in a large server farm data center before so I know first hand what really goes on in a Data Center. Sounds like to me like Blizzard is trying to pull Aces out of their sleeve but they keep pulling Jokers. It wouldn't surprise me if the Judge shoots Blizzard back down and makes them stay down by awarding Merc with a reverse settlement from Blizzard for wasting Merc's time and the Court's time.
Logistically, Merc is not stealing money from Blizzard. Merc puts out a very fine piece of software that does exactly what it's expected to do. Save you time. Give a person a gun and sure enough a Gun will kill you, but Guns don't kill people, People kill people.
Well, Since I seem to be the only "user" of glider who has posted here, I guess I will share my thoughts and reasoning not only behind my motives for glider but the majority of it's other users as well.
As in most MMO games, but this is more so in WoW, the game sucks to high heavens until max level.
Who honestly wants to kill 1 million wolves in a row to level? NOT I !!
So what do we do to remedy this issue. We download glider so we can go do other constructive things with our time, and let the button masher kill the 1 million wolves for us. WoW is a mindless, endless series of stupid quest, and treadmill kill missions all the way to 70.
What do the gliders do with their loot, as suggested we place it on the AH for reduced pricing as compared to all the insane people asking 100g for 1 piece of linen cloth.
Gliders do not hurt anyone in the game. If your argument is that because a glider is spending more than a normal person should in a certain zone, forcing you to go elsewhere. This isn't a botter issue, this is a blizzard issue. They should have made their world larger so you had ample places to grind also.
The waypoints that glider uses, are in very remote regions of the world itself, and odds are these places have little to no traffic in them to begin with. The entire point behind the "waypoints" is not to be seen, not be noticed or make it extremely difficult for others to identify you as a glider. Now that being said, it stands to reason that gliders shouldn't be affecting your popular leveling spots. They use very remote unpopular leveling spots.
The way I look at it is this, it's a morality issue. Some people have no issues at all bypassing the ridiculous parts of a game. Other will say you need to play these mind-numbing parts to actually play the game.
This is all a matter of opinion. You have read that to me, in my opinion, WoW is not fun until 70. This is the outlook of A LOT of people. We decided to not waste our time with wolves and have a program kill them for us. Until we hit 70 and can actually play the fun parts of the game.
My problem with this entire thing was this.
You have a game company suing a guy who made a program who can press keys on your keyboard without you ever having to touch it. Blizzard is wanting to shut this man down because he is what? Smart, Intelligent, creative?
The day you start letting game companies or companies in general dictate someones creativity, and on top of that start to dictate what the average consumer can and cannot use on their personal computers at home, it is a sad day in the world.
A song a long time ago had a lyric, "The day the music died". Scary to think about it really, what would happen if you could never hear music again in the world?
Now apply that lyric to this. "The day creativity died". I would really hate to see the day that no one ever tried to create something new in the world anymore for the fear of being sued and shut down.
Sad day indeed.
Actually that's not even close to what I meant. I already explained this previously. By useing bot's that can farm 24/7 to aquire items and selling them to players, players are alot less likely to explore content (or explor it as often) at a rate 15-30 hours a week. Taking up a server slot is irrelevent, although I disagree that botters aren't playing for free...many of them I am sure use trial accounts.
I do think that is an aspect of it, but again I already stated why this is and your no where close to what I said. Because botters are aquiring items and gold at a rate of 24/7 it makes it less likely that players are going to spend as much time on exsisting content that means production of new content has to be produced faster to keep players involved.
It's also partly why bot grinding hurts economy. It gives people who use such tech a disproportional amount of in game cash. Elevating the cost of items Proportional to the amount of bot farmers. These alienates players who don't/won't use such tech and don't/won't spend real money to purchase in game items (wich is after all how the game was designed to be played). Thus even further dropping subscriptions.
As for Merc that is the same argument Napster made, and in the same analogy if you sell a gun to a person knowing or having a strong suspicion that they intend harm, you have a certain amount of liability. Turning a blind eye to crime dosen't mean you are not an accomplice.
While you will see from my posts I believe (and hope) blizzard will fail. (simply from a legal point of view, the precedent that the case would set is scary.)
Having said that imo (and it is only an opinion) the game starts sucking hard the higher level you get. By 70 its world of item/honour/faction grind. Open pvp would fix things....kill a bot today. By max level its really repetitive .
btw I tried glider and the open source job just so I knew what I was talking about..
This is last comment I'll make on this thread as posters either (1) don't understand what I'm saying or (2) are just in denial.
Bots and Hax are related in that they are both prohibited. I know their functionality is different, that's not the point. Use either and you are risking an account suspension or ban. Hax directly manipulate the code, while bots do it "behind the scenes" by automating gameplay features. Again, they function differently but both are prohibited by the agreement you clicked "I Agree" to before you logged in.
Gliding certainately hurts the economy and it seems I've found someone in denial about it. As I stated before, resources are designed to be in the game in certain quantities with the assumption that a player will take some... then move on. By using automation, that area is farmed constantly thus depleting it to lower than designed for levels. People who used to play Lineage 2 understand this too.
By comparing me to a "salem witch hunter" you have devolved from constructive commentary and resorted to a plain insult. I had a RL friend who used a glider, I warned him what would happen if he got caught but otherwise didn't affect how I felt about him. When he did get his account banned I gave him the "I told you so speech" but again other than that had no affect on how I felt about him. I did not report him, go after him or any other "witch hunt" tactics you seem to imply.
Finally, the whole concept of a glider is rather odd if one stops and thinks about it. They say they don't have time to play, yet set up a program to play 24/7 so they can come back and not have to play much? The game is "flawed" or "broken" so the glider "fixes" the leveling for them. If the game is so poorly made, why is one still paying to play it? Glide all the way to 70 and it is also possible one could not fully understand how to play their character, which could become problematic running instances.
Drow what you say may or may be true. So what? We have not missed your point, your point is irrelevant . Prohibited does not mean illegal. This thread is about Blizzards legal battle. It really does set all sorts of frightening precedent.
Yes back to topic, despite the glider right or wrong discussion.
This is about a powerhouse company blizzard, literally attacking one mans intelligence and creativity.
This man' s program could be used for MANY automated applications, people just chose to utilize it as a way to free up their time in the game world of warcraft.
When you start trying to shut down people's freedom to create in the world for the power of the almighty dollar, which is exactly what this is all about, blizzard thinks they might miss a buck, then you start tapping in and taking away man's basic freedoms.
Example and I will go off the wall with it because it is fun.
I create a spring that attaches to the heel of a basketball shoe. This special "Spring Heel" would allow any user to jump 6 inches higher than he would normally be able to.
Now comes along Nike. Nike has those retarded looking shoes with the "springs" in the heel already, I am sure people have seen them. Now Nike takes me to court saying that I stole an Idea from them and try to sue me.
Nike's "spring" is purely cosmetic on the shoe as to my invention allows players of the game to jump higher. Are basketball players now cheating because I allow them to jump slightly higher? Should I be sued and shut down because I had the intellect to invent something useful to this particular group of people?
Well if blizzard wins this, that is exactly what they are doing. Shutting down someone for being smarter than they are. Shutting down someone with creativity.
When the justice system starts putting dollars signs over mankinds creative thought, it is a sad day in the world.