Which makes more money: EQ2, which released in 2004, peaked at 300K ish subs in 2004-2005, fell to sub 200K by 2006, and still maintains somewhere between 150K and 170K now. EQ2 has declined to the point where SOE is releasing only one expansion a year instead of two, a further drop in revenue. EVE Online, which released in 2003, and is still peaking in subscribers, with over 230K, and is projected to top 300K by the end of this year.
That doesn't prove that a sandbox game is more desired. Just proves that EQ 2 has less appeal. Could be any number of reasons why it has less appeal. let's start with the fact that the world looks like it was made of clay and go from there.
Eve is also unique so it doesn't have to share as many players attracted to space games as EQ II does with those looking for fantasy.
Hmm... You might be on to something there... Could it be that producing more and more fantasy games with elves, raiding, and levels is a bad idea and publishers should start doing OTHER games?
You think?
Publishers don't make games.
Developers have no reason to stray from the fantasy theme - due to the fact the most popular MMORPG is a fantasy one.
Account has been stolen, why would someone want to steal my account?
Which makes more money: EQ2, which released in 2004, peaked at 300K ish subs in 2004-2005, fell to sub 200K by 2006, and still maintains somewhere between 150K and 170K now. EQ2 has declined to the point where SOE is releasing only one expansion a year instead of two, a further drop in revenue. EVE Online, which released in 2003, and is still peaking in subscribers, with over 230K, and is projected to top 300K by the end of this year.
That doesn't prove that a sandbox game is more desired. Just proves that EQ 2 has less appeal. Could be any number of reasons why it has less appeal. let's start with the fact that the world looks like it was made of clay and go from there.
Eve is also unique so it doesn't have to share as many players attracted to space games as EQ II does with those looking for fantasy.
Hmm... You might be on to something there... Could it be that producing more and more fantasy games with elves, raiding, and levels is a bad idea and publishers should start doing OTHER games?
You think?
Publishers don't make games.
Developers have no reason to stray from the fantasy theme - due to the fact the most popular MMORPG is a fantasy one.
There are only TWO fantasy games out there which are popular in North America that have over 200K subs:
WOW and LOTRO.
That's it.
There are too many of that kind of MMO out there for it to make sense to even THINK about doing another like them. There are more than one of those coming out later this year. Stupid.
To make another Fantasy MMO is not stupid. Even with only 100k subs an MMO is going to pull in a million and a half a month so if EQ2 can pull in 2.5 to 3 million a month then that is good. WOW didnt set out to have 10 million subs. They made the game to be profitable with 150 to 200k subs. They had no idea that it was going to blow up like that. (Though I am sure they have loved counting every dollar they get lol) I think the linear, as one poster said, will help sandbox games, only if it can show a publisher that it can make money. I think EVE has done that. But EVE isnt main stream enough to convince alot of bigger publishers to take a risk on one. The game developers make their games out of a passion for what THEY want to play. For what THEY want to make. Then they shop the game around to a publisher in the hopes that it will get picked up. I think alot of MMO's start in development as more sandbox and as timelines and budgets restrict their growth, they remove more and more features to please publishers and share holders by rushing the game to market. MMO's are not the only game genre that falls prey to that. (Fable or S.T.A.L.K.E.R. anyone?) So in the end Sandbox MMO's can work but it is going to take a really patient publisher and a really passionate developer to pull it off well enough to make it a huge hit. Darkfall looks to be a good example but lets see if it ever comes out lol just my 2cents
The fantasy MMOs that are about to come out werent' funded based on getting 100K subs. They were funded at the height of "WoW clone madness" that took over the industry when WoW passed 4 million subs.
You could have a viable MMO with 500K subs, 100K subs, 50K subs, 10K subs, or even 5K subs if you are set up to both keep it viable (with enough development). None of these VC startups were set up for anything less than 1M+ subs and WoW type money returns.
I think the future is going to be more niche games that are more diverse, made by smaller publishers. One or two of them will mushroom like EVE did.
But in the short term, the industry is about to receive a MUCH needed shake up. Whether it's 2008 or 2009, we are due a year that ends with fewer MMO games and publishers than it began with.
Which makes more money: EQ2, which released in 2004, peaked at 300K ish subs in 2004-2005, fell to sub 200K by 2006, and still maintains somewhere between 150K and 170K now. EQ2 has declined to the point where SOE is releasing only one expansion a year instead of two, a further drop in revenue. EVE Online, which released in 2003, and is still peaking in subscribers, with over 230K, and is projected to top 300K by the end of this year.
That doesn't prove that a sandbox game is more desired. Just proves that EQ 2 has less appeal. Could be any number of reasons why it has less appeal. let's start with the fact that the world looks like it was made of clay and go from there.
Eve is also unique so it doesn't have to share as many players attracted to space games as EQ II does with those looking for fantasy.
Hmm... You might be on to something there... Could it be that producing more and more fantasy games with elves, raiding, and levels is a bad idea and publishers should start doing OTHER games?
You think?
Well, no, I don't think.
I've yet to see a Fantasy game that has everything I want. It's possible that the upcoming Aion will but "we'll see".
As far as sci-fi games, Eve wasn't for me though I love many things about it, wasn't interested in Star Wars (though I love the 1st two movies [read very first two] and haven't really seen anything other than Huxley that was of interest.
So yes, it's a shame that there aren't more but so many people like the fantasy games.
Getting back to the Sandbox style of game, WoW did a lot of good things and pulled in many people who would not otherwise be playing MMO's. The problem is that because it is so successful it does tend to generate a strong gravity to it's ease of use philosophy.
However, I seriously think that the call for Sandbox games is extremley small. That small group is die hard and loyal to this type of gameplay but I think they are a niche. Just like Hardcore PvP'ers.
Problem is they are a disenfranchised group.
If the sandbox style worked you would have more success. Ryzom - no success, Star Wars - for whatever reason they felt that the system didn't work and had to change it., And from what I understand the early games that had more sandbox features also had to make changes. Perhaps not as wide seeping as NGE but enough that it made people upset.
I highly suspect that Eve is successful because a, it's sci-fi and b, it's a pvp game. Throw in a few more sci-fi games and it might see a hit to its playerbase. The problem with the sandbox system is that it requires the player to create the content. Quite frankly I don't want to live a "second life" (no pun intended). A guy I know likens his early Star Wars experience to a job and just couldn't play it anymore.
So essentially you are finding a small group that truly does want to live in another world. For everyone else, they just want to play a game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I agree, the industry IS in for a shake up. The market has changed a couple times already...and with the advent of WoW, I think we've come upon the actual turning point in the genre. Its become quite evident that these developers can no longer be trusted to "know" what works. Indeed, Blizzard didn't try to either....they very carefully monitored players in other games and took notes on what DID work. This market is full of money...more so than any other outlet of gaming. The issue is that its also the only one that now DEMANDS 120% attention to detail and focus on the player and fun
I predict that many new games will charge ahead like Tabula Rasa did...with their big budgets but no actual time spent on JUST doing what they player wants. The big budget model is going to flop so terribly that investors will pull out of this market. We will be limited to low-budget indie groups....and super-groups like NCSoft, SOE, and Blizzard left to larger budgets. To be terribly honest...I don't see either NCSoft nor SOE doing any more big budget projects...since they never seem to pull 1 MIl or more in subs. I fully expect Blizzard to be the only one making a AAA MMO that is a super success again.
I wonder if that will cause a sort of ripple, though. Since only Blizzard will make that kind of money...does it not force every one else to pay their own teams far less to compensate? That means that if you wanna make money...its work for Blizzard or bust. That would really put the pressure on the developers of tommorow...because to get into Blizzard now, you need a shipped product to show off what you can do. I think this is going to force these indie teams to put the very best work they can into these projects in order to be able to move up in the future.
Keep an eye on the indie market...its about to be the only one left lol. Besides Blizzard, anyway.
Which makes more money: EQ2, which released in 2004, peaked at 300K ish subs in 2004-2005, fell to sub 200K by 2006, and still maintains somewhere between 150K and 170K now. EQ2 has declined to the point where SOE is releasing only one expansion a year instead of two, a further drop in revenue. EVE Online, which released in 2003, and is still peaking in subscribers, with over 230K, and is projected to top 300K by the end of this year.
i know to never believe anything u say, Salvaje. One thing is that SOE doesnt reveal any of its Sub numbers, so saying EQ2 has 150k to 170k subs is really in the end, ur opinion of what u think they have. And dont bring up MMochart crap, because i dont believe anything there either. As for the one expansion a year? its what the community requested, the expansions were bigger and better when they went to the one expansion a year. so again, u made that up. but what can you expect from someone who wastes their time hating SOE.
The reason so many MMOs fail is that they force you to compete with every other player. Forced to compete for titles, ranks, gear drops, quest drops. The masses just aren't into that.
Give us a game where I can socialize but I do not feel I have to compete. I want to have FUN, yes I said the word FUN. I want a game to be entertainment, not a job... not a chore... not an obsession. The way games are made today, it is a race to end game. Why? Because if you start WoW today you are all alone, you have nothing to do besides grind your levels to get where everyone else is.
Why can't we have a game where levels don't matter? Why can't we have a game where a player who just started yesterday can't go out and do the same sort of things that a player who has been playing for 2 years? (Not exactly the same tasks, dungeons, etc... but things like being able to gather craft materials, craft weapons he can use and are better than vendor bought... etc etc.
Every game is grind your levels and kill, kill, kill then kill some more mobs. Why can't I be a merchant? Why can't I be a cook? Why can't I earn experience by singing in the tavern? Why can't I do other things besides kill 100 bears and bring back 5 bear teeth? /sigh...
I agree, the industry IS in for a shake up. The market has changed a couple times already...and with the advent of WoW, I think we've come upon the actual turning point in the genre. Its become quite evident that these developers can no longer be trusted to "know" what works. Indeed, Blizzard didn't try to either....they very carefully monitored players in other games and took notes on what DID work. This market is full of money...more so than any other outlet of gaming. The issue is that its also the only one that now DEMANDS 120% attention to detail and focus on the player and fun
I predict that many new games will charge ahead like Tabula Rasa did...with their big budgets but no actual time spent on JUST doing what they player wants. The big budget model is going to flop so terribly that investors will pull out of this market. We will be limited to low-budget indie groups....and super-groups like NCSoft, SOE, and Blizzard left to larger budgets. To be terribly honest...I don't see either NCSoft nor SOE doing any more big budget projects...since they never seem to pull 1 MIl or more in subs. I fully expect Blizzard to be the only one making a AAA MMO that is a super success again.
I wonder if that will cause a sort of ripple, though. Since only Blizzard will make that kind of money...does it not force every one else to pay their own teams far less to compensate? That means that if you wanna make money...its work for Blizzard or bust. That would really put the pressure on the developers of tommorow...because to get into Blizzard now, you need a shipped product to show off what you can do. I think this is going to force these indie teams to put the very best work they can into these projects in order to be able to move up in the future.
Keep an eye on the indie market...its about to be the only one left lol. Besides Blizzard, anyway.
Eventually even WOW will feel the effects. Will it die? Probably not... UO is still alive, and it never did have 300K subs. Will WOW keep rising from 10M accounts to infinity? No.
And I doubt Blizzard's next MMO is anywhere near as successful as WOW is. Of course, it doesn't HAVE to be and it could still be very very huge.
The reports are that the MMO they are working on is NOT a WOW sequel, and that it is not going to be the same kind of game.
For some reason, companies cringe at the thought of making sandbox games, perhaps it involves alot more maintenance or brainstorming for ideas or maybe they just don't want to make it too close to realsm. Our life is a sandbox, the old SWG reflected our real lifestyle within the game- the economy on the bazaar, crafted items, interaction with doctors and entertainers, doing our jobs (hunting marks, protecting the galaxy, looking for trouble on the streets, supplying for crafters, entertaining others, etc.), meeting people in major cities which we all go through on a daily basis in real life.
I agree, the industry IS in for a shake up. The market has changed a couple times already...and with the advent of WoW, I think we've come upon the actual turning point in the genre. Its become quite evident that these developers can no longer be trusted to "know" what works. Indeed, Blizzard didn't try to either....they very carefully monitored players in other games and took notes on what DID work. This market is full of money...more so than any other outlet of gaming. The issue is that its also the only one that now DEMANDS 120% attention to detail and focus on the player and fun
I predict that many new games will charge ahead like Tabula Rasa did...with their big budgets but no actual time spent on JUST doing what they player wants. The big budget model is going to flop so terribly that investors will pull out of this market. We will be limited to low-budget indie groups....and super-groups like NCSoft, SOE, and Blizzard left to larger budgets. To be terribly honest...I don't see either NCSoft nor SOE doing any more big budget projects...since they never seem to pull 1 MIl or more in subs. I fully expect Blizzard to be the only one making a AAA MMO that is a super success again.
I wonder if that will cause a sort of ripple, though. Since only Blizzard will make that kind of money...does it not force every one else to pay their own teams far less to compensate? That means that if you wanna make money...its work for Blizzard or bust. That would really put the pressure on the developers of tommorow...because to get into Blizzard now, you need a shipped product to show off what you can do. I think this is going to force these indie teams to put the very best work they can into these projects in order to be able to move up in the future.
Keep an eye on the indie market...its about to be the only one left lol. Besides Blizzard, anyway.
That's only partly correct.
Yes, you will find more diverse gameplay in the indy market. But this is the way it is with EVERYTHING! Movies, music, art, you name it. We are not seeing anything different here.
As far as NC or SOE, if you look at their budgets you will see that they are spending the "bucks" to create high budget games. Since the rewards are high I don't see them stopping that any time soon. I do see them perhaps changing their ways of designing, creating games to make it more cost effective perhaps.
as far as them not creatiing games that players want, whose to say they aren't? Perhaps they are creating games that players want but they aren't succussful with their implementation?
Quite frankly I prefer a mix between linear quests and open gameplay (why Aion seems so appealing to me). However, I'm really enjoying my time in LOTRO. I do Play Lineage 2 and that game really is about the players so there is something to that type of gameplay.
However, if open ended gamplay made money you would see this type of gameplay incorporated more.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
For some reason, companies cringe at the thought of making sandbox games, perhaps it involves alot more maintenance or brainstorming for ideas or maybe they just don't want to make it too close to realsm. Our life is a sandbox, the old SWG reflected our real lifestyle within the game- the economy on the bazaar, crafted items, interaction with doctors and entertainers, doing our jobs (hunting marks, protecting the galaxy, looking for trouble on the streets, supplying for crafters, entertaining others, etc.), meeting people in major cities which we all go through on a daily basis in real life.
I don't think that developers don't like to do sandboxes for those reasons.
I think they dislike them because a sandbox is by it's nature player controlled. This means less publisher/developer control, lots of unintended consequences, etc.
Today's typical "level raid gear grind treadmill" style game is easier to make money off of because every year they can raise the level cap by 10, and sell an expansion that contains more gear to grind (which you basically force everyone to buy). Development is simpler because all they have to do is extend the treadmill.
You can sell expansions for a sandbox game too (CCP doesn't, expansions are free) but instead of add "level cap +10" and calling that an expansion you have to add REAL new systems and stuff to the game.
The only "true" expansion SWG ever had and SOE has ever produced was JTL, which actually expanded the game adding a whole new dimension (space) to it.
EVE will soon be doing a similar thing, adding ambulation, adding out of ship interaction and content to the game.
Why can't we have a game where levels don't matter? Why can't we have a game where a player who just started yesterday can't go out and do the same sort of things that a player who has been playing for 2 years? (Not exactly the same tasks, dungeons, etc... but things like being able to gather craft materials, craft weapons he can use and are better than vendor bought... etc etc. Every game is grind your levels and kill, kill, kill then kill some more mobs. Why can't I be a merchant? Why can't I be a cook? Why can't I earn experience by singing in the tavern? Why can't I do other things besides kill 100 bears and bring back 5 bear teeth? /sigh...
I remember that game. <sigh> Buggy, to be sure, and a bit unbalanced at the highest "levels", but tons o' fun nevertheless.
"The problem with the sandbox system is that it requires the player to create the content." -Sovrath 4/9/08
"Our life is a sandbox, the old SWG reflected our real lifestyle within the game- the economy on the bazaar, crafted items, interaction with doctors and entertainers, doing our jobs (hunting marks, protecting the galaxy, looking for trouble on the streets, supplying for crafters, entertaining others, etc.), meeting people in major cities which we all go through on a daily basis in real life." -sookster54 4/9/08
I believe that these two comments articulate the problems with sandbox-style games. SWG (pre-NGE) worked because the Intellectual Property that the game was based on was already widely known. The devs were in a position to capitalize on the already established lore and mythos without having to 'herd' players from content progression point to content progression point in order for the entirety of the plot or concept behind the game to be understood. I'll admit, I geeked out at being able to explore a ton of areas and find some interesting artifacts or landscapes that were familiar to me from the previously existing content. I personally, played in intervals beginning launch week (when you had to run everywhere because even the shuttle system wasn't working at the time) up until the NGE, and most of my enjoyment came from seeing the established characters or playing in a manner that was consistent with the lore - ie: destroying player-built Rebel/Imperial cities/constellations.
Many casual or hobbyist gamers wouldn't have liked SWG one bit if: A) they weren't acclimated to the lore and mythos; or they weren't told immediately to go from point A to point B to progress your character and knowledge of the content on which this universe is based. I'm sure there were a lot of people who were unfamiliar with the MMORPG aspects of the game, as well. "WTF?! This isn't anything like KOTOR or Jedi Academy!!"
Personally, I always wished that there were 'actors', or real live people, that would pop in game playing the role of a significant character in the lore or mythos. They could have been inserted to prompt new story arcs, or progress arcs that had not been completed by the population. It would kind of give tangibility to the presence of the developer and help close gaps between what the player base expects from the game and what they can't (or won't ) accomplish themselves to further immerse themselves into the environment.
As an aside; it's a shame that George Lucas resents the legacy that is Star Wars so much as to carelessly destroy it by allowing the Lucas Arts Marketing Department to run with data that suggests "median-friendly" products and promotions to epitomize the term "profitmonger".
Condensed Version: Yeah sandboxes aren't for everyone. Success lies in the motivation of the player-base. Motivation is tied to how compelling and the rate at which content is absorbed/accepted by said player-base. THE NGE SUCKED!!
Which makes more money: EQ2, which released in 2004, peaked at 300K ish subs in 2004-2005, fell to sub 200K by 2006, and still maintains somewhere between 150K and 170K now. EQ2 has declined to the point where SOE is releasing only one expansion a year instead of two, a further drop in revenue. EVE Online, which released in 2003, and is still peaking in subscribers, with over 230K, and is projected to top 300K by the end of this year.
That doesn't prove that a sandbox game is more desired. Just proves that EQ 2 has less appeal. Could be any number of reasons why it has less appeal. let's start with the fact that the world looks like it was made of clay and go from there.
Eve is also unique so it doesn't have to share as many players attracted to space games as EQ II does with those looking for fantasy.
Hmm... You might be on to something there... Could it be that producing more and more fantasy games with elves, raiding, and levels is a bad idea and publishers should start doing OTHER games?
You think?
I cant say that i dont agree with you here but lets look at what happens when Developers do release other types of games.
TR gets released and is destroyed by the MMO player base. There are people who like the game and should get to continue to play it but the "All about me" WoW crowd have devistated that game with bad publicity.
BoTBS releases and same thing happens.
This isnt 2000 anymore. The MMO community isnt like it was back then. Now you have millions of people who have played WoW and only WoW verbally destroy any game that comes out and is not like their sacred WoW.
When thousands and thousands of people are busting on the game you made developers listen, even if those thousands and thousands of people are full of crap.
And you are right that we have too many fantasy games with elves and what not. Unfortunetly we have too few good ones.
Comments
Eve is also unique so it doesn't have to share as many players attracted to space games as EQ II does with those looking for fantasy.
Hmm... You might be on to something there... Could it be that producing more and more fantasy games with elves, raiding, and levels is a bad idea and publishers should start doing OTHER games?
You think?
Publishers don't make games.
Developers have no reason to stray from the fantasy theme - due to the fact the most popular MMORPG is a fantasy one.
Account has been stolen, why would someone want to steal my account?
That doesn't prove that a sandbox game is more desired. Just proves that EQ 2 has less appeal. Could be any number of reasons why it has less appeal. let's start with the fact that the world looks like it was made of clay and go from there.Eve is also unique so it doesn't have to share as many players attracted to space games as EQ II does with those looking for fantasy.
Hmm... You might be on to something there... Could it be that producing more and more fantasy games with elves, raiding, and levels is a bad idea and publishers should start doing OTHER games?
You think?
Publishers don't make games.
Developers have no reason to stray from the fantasy theme - due to the fact the most popular MMORPG is a fantasy one.
There are only TWO fantasy games out there which are popular in North America that have over 200K subs:
WOW and LOTRO.
That's it.
There are too many of that kind of MMO out there for it to make sense to even THINK about doing another like them. There are more than one of those coming out later this year. Stupid.
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The fantasy MMOs that are about to come out werent' funded based on getting 100K subs. They were funded at the height of "WoW clone madness" that took over the industry when WoW passed 4 million subs.
You could have a viable MMO with 500K subs, 100K subs, 50K subs, 10K subs, or even 5K subs if you are set up to both keep it viable (with enough development). None of these VC startups were set up for anything less than 1M+ subs and WoW type money returns.
I think the future is going to be more niche games that are more diverse, made by smaller publishers. One or two of them will mushroom like EVE did.
But in the short term, the industry is about to receive a MUCH needed shake up. Whether it's 2008 or 2009, we are due a year that ends with fewer MMO games and publishers than it began with.
After carefully weighing my options as to whats available, I have finally made a decision.
Best new sandbox .... IMO
~Hairysun~
http://www.straightdope.com/
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거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Eve is also unique so it doesn't have to share as many players attracted to space games as EQ II does with those looking for fantasy.
Hmm... You might be on to something there... Could it be that producing more and more fantasy games with elves, raiding, and levels is a bad idea and publishers should start doing OTHER games?
You think?
Well, no, I don't think.
I've yet to see a Fantasy game that has everything I want. It's possible that the upcoming Aion will but "we'll see".
As far as sci-fi games, Eve wasn't for me though I love many things about it, wasn't interested in Star Wars (though I love the 1st two movies [read very first two] and haven't really seen anything other than Huxley that was of interest.
So yes, it's a shame that there aren't more but so many people like the fantasy games.
Getting back to the Sandbox style of game, WoW did a lot of good things and pulled in many people who would not otherwise be playing MMO's. The problem is that because it is so successful it does tend to generate a strong gravity to it's ease of use philosophy.
However, I seriously think that the call for Sandbox games is extremley small. That small group is die hard and loyal to this type of gameplay but I think they are a niche. Just like Hardcore PvP'ers.
Problem is they are a disenfranchised group.
If the sandbox style worked you would have more success. Ryzom - no success, Star Wars - for whatever reason they felt that the system didn't work and had to change it., And from what I understand the early games that had more sandbox features also had to make changes. Perhaps not as wide seeping as NGE but enough that it made people upset.
I highly suspect that Eve is successful because a, it's sci-fi and b, it's a pvp game. Throw in a few more sci-fi games and it might see a hit to its playerbase. The problem with the sandbox system is that it requires the player to create the content. Quite frankly I don't want to live a "second life" (no pun intended). A guy I know likens his early Star Wars experience to a job and just couldn't play it anymore.
So essentially you are finding a small group that truly does want to live in another world. For everyone else, they just want to play a game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I agree, the industry IS in for a shake up. The market has changed a couple times already...and with the advent of WoW, I think we've come upon the actual turning point in the genre. Its become quite evident that these developers can no longer be trusted to "know" what works. Indeed, Blizzard didn't try to either....they very carefully monitored players in other games and took notes on what DID work. This market is full of money...more so than any other outlet of gaming. The issue is that its also the only one that now DEMANDS 120% attention to detail and focus on the player and fun
I predict that many new games will charge ahead like Tabula Rasa did...with their big budgets but no actual time spent on JUST doing what they player wants. The big budget model is going to flop so terribly that investors will pull out of this market. We will be limited to low-budget indie groups....and super-groups like NCSoft, SOE, and Blizzard left to larger budgets. To be terribly honest...I don't see either NCSoft nor SOE doing any more big budget projects...since they never seem to pull 1 MIl or more in subs. I fully expect Blizzard to be the only one making a AAA MMO that is a super success again.
I wonder if that will cause a sort of ripple, though. Since only Blizzard will make that kind of money...does it not force every one else to pay their own teams far less to compensate? That means that if you wanna make money...its work for Blizzard or bust. That would really put the pressure on the developers of tommorow...because to get into Blizzard now, you need a shipped product to show off what you can do. I think this is going to force these indie teams to put the very best work they can into these projects in order to be able to move up in the future.
Keep an eye on the indie market...its about to be the only one left lol. Besides Blizzard, anyway.
just released www.mortalonline.com seems to be a sandbox game!!
"In Mortal Online we want you to be free. We create a world for you with a minimum of rules but with endless possibilities,"
i know to never believe anything u say, Salvaje. One thing is that SOE doesnt reveal any of its Sub numbers, so saying EQ2 has 150k to 170k subs is really in the end, ur opinion of what u think they have. And dont bring up MMochart crap, because i dont believe anything there either. As for the one expansion a year? its what the community requested, the expansions were bigger and better when they went to the one expansion a year. so again, u made that up. but what can you expect from someone who wastes their time hating SOE.
The reason so many MMOs fail is that they force you to compete with every other player. Forced to compete for titles, ranks, gear drops, quest drops. The masses just aren't into that.
Give us a game where I can socialize but I do not feel I have to compete. I want to have FUN, yes I said the word FUN. I want a game to be entertainment, not a job... not a chore... not an obsession. The way games are made today, it is a race to end game. Why? Because if you start WoW today you are all alone, you have nothing to do besides grind your levels to get where everyone else is.
Why can't we have a game where levels don't matter? Why can't we have a game where a player who just started yesterday can't go out and do the same sort of things that a player who has been playing for 2 years? (Not exactly the same tasks, dungeons, etc... but things like being able to gather craft materials, craft weapons he can use and are better than vendor bought... etc etc.
Every game is grind your levels and kill, kill, kill then kill some more mobs. Why can't I be a merchant? Why can't I be a cook? Why can't I earn experience by singing in the tavern? Why can't I do other things besides kill 100 bears and bring back 5 bear teeth? /sigh...
Eventually even WOW will feel the effects. Will it die? Probably not... UO is still alive, and it never did have 300K subs. Will WOW keep rising from 10M accounts to infinity? No.
And I doubt Blizzard's next MMO is anywhere near as successful as WOW is. Of course, it doesn't HAVE to be and it could still be very very huge.
The reports are that the MMO they are working on is NOT a WOW sequel, and that it is not going to be the same kind of game.
For some reason, companies cringe at the thought of making sandbox games, perhaps it involves alot more maintenance or brainstorming for ideas or maybe they just don't want to make it too close to realsm. Our life is a sandbox, the old SWG reflected our real lifestyle within the game- the economy on the bazaar, crafted items, interaction with doctors and entertainers, doing our jobs (hunting marks, protecting the galaxy, looking for trouble on the streets, supplying for crafters, entertaining others, etc.), meeting people in major cities which we all go through on a daily basis in real life.
Yes, you will find more diverse gameplay in the indy market. But this is the way it is with EVERYTHING! Movies, music, art, you name it. We are not seeing anything different here.
As far as NC or SOE, if you look at their budgets you will see that they are spending the "bucks" to create high budget games. Since the rewards are high I don't see them stopping that any time soon. I do see them perhaps changing their ways of designing, creating games to make it more cost effective perhaps.
as far as them not creatiing games that players want, whose to say they aren't? Perhaps they are creating games that players want but they aren't succussful with their implementation?
Quite frankly I prefer a mix between linear quests and open gameplay (why Aion seems so appealing to me). However, I'm really enjoying my time in LOTRO. I do Play Lineage 2 and that game really is about the players so there is something to that type of gameplay.
However, if open ended gamplay made money you would see this type of gameplay incorporated more.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't think that developers don't like to do sandboxes for those reasons.
I think they dislike them because a sandbox is by it's nature player controlled. This means less publisher/developer control, lots of unintended consequences, etc.
Today's typical "level raid gear grind treadmill" style game is easier to make money off of because every year they can raise the level cap by 10, and sell an expansion that contains more gear to grind (which you basically force everyone to buy). Development is simpler because all they have to do is extend the treadmill.
You can sell expansions for a sandbox game too (CCP doesn't, expansions are free) but instead of add "level cap +10" and calling that an expansion you have to add REAL new systems and stuff to the game.
The only "true" expansion SWG ever had and SOE has ever produced was JTL, which actually expanded the game adding a whole new dimension (space) to it.
EVE will soon be doing a similar thing, adding ambulation, adding out of ship interaction and content to the game.
I remember that game. <sigh> Buggy, to be sure, and a bit unbalanced at the highest "levels", but tons o' fun nevertheless.
"The problem with the sandbox system is that it requires the player to create the content." -Sovrath 4/9/08
"Our life is a sandbox, the old SWG reflected our real lifestyle within the game- the economy on the bazaar, crafted items, interaction with doctors and entertainers, doing our jobs (hunting marks, protecting the galaxy, looking for trouble on the streets, supplying for crafters, entertaining others, etc.), meeting people in major cities which we all go through on a daily basis in real life." -sookster54 4/9/08
I believe that these two comments articulate the problems with sandbox-style games. SWG (pre-NGE) worked because the Intellectual Property that the game was based on was already widely known. The devs were in a position to capitalize on the already established lore and mythos without having to 'herd' players from content progression point to content progression point in order for the entirety of the plot or concept behind the game to be understood. I'll admit, I geeked out at being able to explore a ton of areas and find some interesting artifacts or landscapes that were familiar to me from the previously existing content. I personally, played in intervals beginning launch week (when you had to run everywhere because even the shuttle system wasn't working at the time) up until the NGE, and most of my enjoyment came from seeing the established characters or playing in a manner that was consistent with the lore - ie: destroying player-built Rebel/Imperial cities/constellations.
Many casual or hobbyist gamers wouldn't have liked SWG one bit if: A) they weren't acclimated to the lore and mythos; or
they weren't told immediately to go from point A to point B to progress your character and knowledge of the content on which this universe is based. I'm sure there were a lot of people who were unfamiliar with the MMORPG aspects of the game, as well. "WTF?! This isn't anything like KOTOR or Jedi Academy!!"
Personally, I always wished that there were 'actors', or real live people, that would pop in game playing the role of a significant character in the lore or mythos. They could have been inserted to prompt new story arcs, or progress arcs that had not been completed by the population. It would kind of give tangibility to the presence of the developer and help close gaps between what the player base expects from the game and what they can't (or won't ) accomplish themselves to further immerse themselves into the environment.
As an aside; it's a shame that George Lucas resents the legacy that is Star Wars so much as to carelessly destroy it by allowing the Lucas Arts Marketing Department to run with data that suggests "median-friendly" products and promotions to epitomize the term "profitmonger".
Condensed Version: Yeah sandboxes aren't for everyone. Success lies in the motivation of the player-base. Motivation is tied to how compelling and the rate at which content is absorbed/accepted by said player-base. THE NGE SUCKED!!
Fallen Earth is coming, and that is the only game that has me excited.
No "levels", deep crafting, sci-fi themed, non-twitch-based combat, roles for the combat and non-combat player.
Since the death of SWG, not much else has offered those things.
Eve is also unique so it doesn't have to share as many players attracted to space games as EQ II does with those looking for fantasy.
Hmm... You might be on to something there... Could it be that producing more and more fantasy games with elves, raiding, and levels is a bad idea and publishers should start doing OTHER games?
You think?
I cant say that i dont agree with you here but lets look at what happens when Developers do release other types of games.TR gets released and is destroyed by the MMO player base. There are people who like the game and should get to continue to play it but the "All about me" WoW crowd have devistated that game with bad publicity.
BoTBS releases and same thing happens.
This isnt 2000 anymore. The MMO community isnt like it was back then. Now you have millions of people who have played WoW and only WoW verbally destroy any game that comes out and is not like their sacred WoW.
When thousands and thousands of people are busting on the game you made developers listen, even if those thousands and thousands of people are full of crap.
And you are right that we have too many fantasy games with elves and what not. Unfortunetly we have too few good ones.