Id check your sources.. Ive had to do a few papers about Video game addiction and its almost a joke how they diagnose it.
Not all journals should be taken as the word of god.. some of there methods are hillarious, as well their evidence to support their claims almost laughable.
Edit: and as a note, you idea of video games releasing chemicals thus your able to be addicted. By that definition you could be addicted to the sun, or anything in the world because everything is a chemical in the brain...
The very logic your using is the crazy logic im talking about making those articles less than reliable.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
I think claiming to have an addiction that the AMA has said doesn't exist, pretty much sums it up. It's the player's fault for having no self control...at all...but who wants to admit that, when you can blame the world for it by calling it an addiction, syndrome, or some other term that makes it "not your fault"?
I think the AMA is absolutely wrong. There is a segment of the population that is wired this way. The same underlying symptoms are exactly the same for gambling addicts. It is a combination of company's supplying the product to a niche market that can tend to get addicted.
I think claiming to have an addiction that the AMA has said doesn't exist, pretty much sums it up. It's the player's fault for having no self control...at all...but who wants to admit that, when you can blame the world for it by calling it an addiction, syndrome, or some other term that makes it "not your fault"?
I think the AMA is absolutely wrong. There is a segment of the population that is wired this way. The same underlying symptoms are exactly the same for gambling addicts. It is a combination of company's supplying the product to a niche market that can tend to get addicted.
by this logic we should be going after sports teams for getting young people addicted to sports... a dead end hobby that only very few of them will ever make a living out of and many will end up having to go to trade school or McDonalds cause they didnt make the cut.
The same underlying symptoms? Aids and the cold have the same underlying symptoms.. are the the same thing?
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
It's not the drug dealer's fault that you're a crack head. It's not McDonald's fault that you're fat. And it's not NCsoft's fault that you cant pay your bills because you want to impress your guild w/ your new set of armor.
I was addicted to FFXI for three years, and i'm still paying debt collectors because of it. I quit my job so i could play 12+ hours a day. Nothing got paid and my bedroom in my moms house still probably smells like my unwashed ass. I really wish that i was making this up, looking back i dont know what the hell i was thinking, but at the time it seemed like a good idea, i guess.
I still play MMOs to use up my free time, but i will never let that happen again. And i will never blame anyone but myself for what happened.
I think claiming to have an addiction that the AMA has said doesn't exist, pretty much sums it up. It's the player's fault for having no self control...at all...but who wants to admit that, when you can blame the world for it by calling it an addiction, syndrome, or some other term that makes it "not your fault"?
I think the AMA is absolutely wrong. There is a segment of the population that is wired this way. The same underlying symptoms are exactly the same for gambling addicts. It is a combination of company's supplying the product to a niche market that can tend to get addicted.
If you are wired that way then how do you fix it? Where is the MEDICAL tests to prove you are wired that way? In fact where are the medical tests to prove ANYTHING like this?
You just want another excuse to dish out drugs to sane people and make shrinks more money.
Completely the games fault for making them addictive with a reward system and timesinks.
Gamers who were never addicted to normal games before are suddenly addicted to MMO.
Someone said it before in this thread, gamers often hate the MMO and the company but continue to play the game. That's because of how the game is designed.
If you are wired that way then how do you fix it? Where is the MEDICAL tests to prove you are wired that way? In fact where are the medical tests to prove ANYTHING like this?
You just want another excuse to dish out drugs to sane people and make shrinks more money.
There were tests with brain scans that found out MMO stimulate a part of the brain that can lead to addiction.
More so than other forms of entertainment.
It just proves they're addictive. Not that another person is more addictive than someone else though.
I'm not disputing that games are addictive, just that those who get addictive are physically or mentally ill / disabled. They aren't, there is nothing wrong with them, they are normal people who happen to have low will power, that isn't WRONG, that is just different.
And any pleasure activity causes chemicals to be released in the brain and heightened brain activity, it's not unique to gaming or MMOs. I know a person who played Halo 8 hours a day seven days a week, but he finds MMOs boring as hell. Addiction to an MMO is the same as any other addiction to something you enjoy doing.
Threads like this bother me... Why? Because quite simply the "experts" in these kinds of things can't even agree on what causes addiction. There is no 100% set of descriptors that can guarantee you will or won't be addicted. They have a general consensus that most people who become addicts share a common subset of descriptors. However, its still not something that the experts can agree 100% on. They have moved more in the direction of the term "addictive personality" but many still argue about even that.
So when I see threads like this.. and I don't post this to offend anyone in this thread. I often wonder how the internet is so full of people who can tell me what... People with PhD's.. Medical Degrees etc can't.
Addiction is NOT recognized as a different "disease" or whatever term you want to apply.. due to the source of the addiction.
One poster who stated that the way the games are designed... people hate the company but keep playing.. due to some time vs. reward design. That might describe something.. but its not addiction.
Whether its a chemical or a behaviour... its not viewed differently by addiction "experts".
People get addicted to about everything you can imagine.
I don't know that you can really apply the term "fault" because that implies blame.
Oh and to add a bit of humor... or at least try.
I personally don't see the current MMO's as rewarding me for sitting through their crappy gameplay mechanics. Its more like banging my head into a wall... so it feels very good when I... stop.
Thus came about... my cancel button signature. (so maybe I'm addicted to .. quitting).
There is no warning on the box that says the game can lead to addiction. A person usually can't state with certainty that they are perceptible to it.
You can't compare this to drugs or alcohol at all. People usually know those risks.
Blaming the gamer when an addiction does occur is a bit easy. The MMO created the situation the person is in now. It's up to the person to cut her losses, but the MMO was the cause of the situation.
I think MMO are much more to blame than the player in those circumstances.
Something to remember when ppl discuss this: There is no warning on the box that says the game can lead to addiction. A person usually can't state with certainty that they are perceptible to it. You can't compare this to drugs or alcohol at all. People usually know those risks. Blaming the gamer when an addiction does occur is a bit easy. The MMO created the situation the person is in now. There was never any warning. It's up to the person to cut her losses, but you can't pretend the MMO wasn't the cause of the situation. I think MMO are much more to blame than the player in those circumstances.
Just saw this and have to comment.
Having sex can also be addicting... so should people get a big label over their body parts stating that sex can lead to addiction?
There are so many things that people get "addicted" to. Let's just look at this issue this way: MMO is NOT the only game that can be addicting, so does other types of game. Some are addicted to RTS (some game session lasted 3+ hrs, similar to MMO). So in that case, we say video games can be addicting, but so can everything else when it's not take in moderation.
You say MMO are designed this way... but there more people who can treat it as what it is - a game, and not be controlled by it.
In the end, a person have to face his/her responsibility, and know the consequences of their choice. (Most games, MMO included, are based on the players' choice on whether they play or not. Only those who have problems in real life and want to escape find these games to be their way - hence they are addicted to it.)
So the problem isn't whether the game is addicting, or who's to blame, but what drives those who want to escape real-life in a game? This then becomes social issue. You go after the ROOT of the issue, not the by-product of the issue.
Originally posted by Vincenz I think claiming to have an addiction that the AMA has said doesn't exist, pretty much sums it up. It's the player's fault for having no self control...at all...but who wants to admit that, when you can blame the world for it by calling it an addiction, syndrome, or some other term that makes it "not your fault"?
The AMA once denied that smoking was addictive. I wouldn't hold much stock in this opinion if I were anyone with half a brain cell.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
I think claiming to have an addiction that the AMA has said doesn't exist, pretty much sums it up. It's the player's fault for having no self control...at all...but who wants to admit that, when you can blame the world for it by calling it an addiction, syndrome, or some other term that makes it "not your fault"?
I think the AMA is absolutely wrong. There is a segment of the population that is wired this way. The same underlying symptoms are exactly the same for gambling addicts. It is a combination of company's supplying the product to a niche market that can tend to get addicted.
by this logic we should be going after sports teams for getting young people addicted to sports... a dead end hobby that only very few of them will ever make a living out of and many will end up having to go to trade school or McDonalds cause they didnt make the cut.
The same underlying symptoms? Aids and the cold have the same underlying symptoms.. are the the same thing?
This is what we would call logic 101. Gambling is not a physical addiction like drugs. Its strictly a behavior addiction in the same way becoming addicted to videogames. If Gambling addiction is acknowledged, then there is absolutely no way video game addiction cannot be classified in the same manner.
Something to remember when ppl discuss this: There is no warning on the box that says the game can lead to addiction. A person usually can't state with certainty that they are perceptible to it. You can't compare this to drugs or alcohol at all. People usually know those risks. Blaming the gamer when an addiction does occur is a bit easy. The MMO created the situation the person is in now. It's up to the person to cut her losses, but the MMO was the cause of the situation. I think MMO are much more to blame than the player in those circumstances.
Something else to remember: you make your own choices.
Quit trying to pass the blame, unless a person is tied down and forced to participate in something until they are addicted to it - it is 100% their responsibility.
Something to remember when ppl discuss this: There is no warning on the box that says the game can lead to addiction. A person usually can't state with certainty that they are perceptible to it. You can't compare this to drugs or alcohol at all. People usually know those risks. Blaming the gamer when an addiction does occur is a bit easy. The MMO created the situation the person is in now. It's up to the person to cut her losses, but the MMO was the cause of the situation. I think MMO are much more to blame than the player in those circumstances.
Something else to remember: you make your own choices.
Quit trying to pass the blame, unless a person is tied down and forced to participate in something until they are addicted to it - it is 100% their responsibility.
Yes, you do.
Does that mean we can't warn people of bad choices.
Does that mean we don't draw a line somewhere and protect people.
We shouldn't let companies make these decisions for us and give them free reign, that's what's happening in the US and Europe.
I'm sure some don't want to hear it, but China does do something about these problems and is giving the right example.
Something to remember when ppl discuss this: There is no warning on the box that says the game can lead to addiction. A person usually can't state with certainty that they are perceptible to it. You can't compare this to drugs or alcohol at all. People usually know those risks. Blaming the gamer when an addiction does occur is a bit easy. The MMO created the situation the person is in now. There was never any warning. It's up to the person to cut her losses, but you can't pretend the MMO wasn't the cause of the situation. I think MMO are much more to blame than the player in those circumstances.
So the problem isn't whether the game is addicting, or who's to blame, but what drives those who want to escape real-life in a game? This then becomes social issue. You go after the ROOT of the issue, not the by-product of the issue.
Ya, it is a bigger problem Forcan.
What I am VERY much opposed to is that MMO's have the means to exploit this.
I think we should do both, help and look at the root problem but also make sure an MMO cannot exploit that and ruin the lives of those people.
Something to remember when ppl discuss this: There is no warning on the box that says the game can lead to addiction. A person usually can't state with certainty that they are perceptible to it. You can't compare this to drugs or alcohol at all. People usually know those risks. Blaming the gamer when an addiction does occur is a bit easy. The MMO created the situation the person is in now. There was never any warning. It's up to the person to cut her losses, but you can't pretend the MMO wasn't the cause of the situation. I think MMO are much more to blame than the player in those circumstances.
So the problem isn't whether the game is addicting, or who's to blame, but what drives those who want to escape real-life in a game? This then becomes social issue. You go after the ROOT of the issue, not the by-product of the issue.
Ya, it is a bigger problem Forcan.
What I am VERY much opposed to is that MMO's have the means to exploit this.
I think we should do both, help and look at the root problem but also make sure an MMO cannot exploit that and ruin the lives of those people.
You are looking at this issue with a bias view point. If the root problem is taken care of, then this issue with MMO isn't an issue, period.
How does MMO exploit this problem? Like movies and TV, even music, it is a form of entertainment. As I've stated before, some can treat their leisure activities with responsibility, some can't. So then why do you think should be done with this "issue"? There are more people who understand of this and can control themselves, and there are people who can't. But ultimately is those who can't that has the problem with such activity. They are victims of their own action and choice, then why put the responsibility on someone else?
Games like MMOs and competitive FPS can be addictive. They are designed to be mildly addictive, but the effects differ from person to person. The player is NOT the only person at fault. The companies are just as bad too in some cases.
World of Warcraft is such a beautiful example. LEt me paint 2 scenerios here.
1. you lvl fomr 1 - 60 in wow. It's the typically solo questing and small instances with a 5 man group.
Your friends call you. they say "DUDE!! come join us for [insert favorite activity here]." You say yes. You tell your group you have to go and you log out for some fun. There is no addiction here. You leave when you want, and come back when you want. Yet you still get the rewards you desire and the fun you want.
2. Now you're lvl 70 and you just signed up for a big 3 hour raid on a specific date. You are one of the few people in your guild with the equipment to do the job correctly. The dungeon requires a specific group makeup and you are THE KEY person in the raid. Due to the difficulty the raid has gone into overtime of 5 hours now. You are making progress and you could reach the end tonight.
Midway through the raid your bros call you up. "DUDE!!!! come join us for [insert once in a lifeteme experience here]." Will you say yes?
If you leave, you may let 40 of your guildies down. 10 of them are good friends. You will probably be replaced and miss out one getting this task done and getting uber items.
Sadly many people would choose "no" due to the pressure of so many peers relying on them.
Now whos fault is it for making a good game but including a raiding system that will literally sink 5 hours out of your day? Who's fault is it for not makeing it a short instance and for making it so damn hard that a specific team is required? Whos fault is it forcing your to go through this instance just so you can continue on to other parts of the game afterwards? It's the game creators fault. It's your fault for enjoying the game for so long that ou became attached to your accomplishments (aka character).
WoW is notorious for starting out very nice and casual. But when you get to the end game content, you will soon find out that you need to invest massive amounts of time to experience the good stuff. You need to prgress thoguh things in a certain order. If you cant? Then your stuck trying to leech off of other more powerful players who have the time to go through those areas. Anyone remeber ranked PvP in WoW?
What makes you think his friends in WoW are any less real that his friends who come round his house? Maybe they are even the same people?
Games are addictive, it's not just MMOs, and the thing the developers are exploiting are the player's need to be someone, not any magic thing that is known to be addictive. A market research poll last year showed that the majority of MMO gamers are achievers, they want to get something back for the time they put in, they want that extra level, they want that cool item, they want to be the best.
Developers do exploit the behavioural pattern of the average MMO player, but they do not exploit some mythical addiction attribute.
As I have said previously, I have known people who have been addicted to single player games and non-MMO games, usually they are console gamers too. It's not an MMO specific thing.
"Game addiction" isn't even a physical addiction, it's a pyschological addiction.
The point is, they aren't even making something toxic. They are making something enjoyable. It comes down to personal responsibility.
People with no willpower, absurdly addictive personalities, or weak minds develop that pyschological addiction. They are the problem here. And if it wasn't games, it would be something else.
Even if your reply is "Well, they are victims and its not their fault," it still doesn't become the producer's responsibility. That's like me cooking your friend a tasty meal and then you getting pissy at me when your friend eats until he/she dies or refuses to chew it properly and chokes to death. It's not like I gave him/her a grenade with the pin pulled out.
I have the same problem with people saying videogames encourage violence. People used to kill each other over the drop of a hat before! Violence isn't new.
The movie Scream sums this up very well:
"Movies don't create pyschos. Movies make pyschos more creative."
Same is true for games, or books, or whatever else.
I think it is the producers fault when they design their game to be HUGE timesinks and "just another level or mob". A game where the best items only accessible to people on welfare or people risking RL relationships or committments, ain't good for you.
The old RPG designers of D&D put in a rule that you couldn't level more than one level pr. session. Maybe the MMO industry should make the same limitation, so that the game creates more fun and less RL loosers.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
I am of the opinion that all adiction is the users fault, whether that be drugs or something silly like playing wow. It seems to me that everyone wants a free ride these days.No one wants to take personal responsibility for anything...
Its not my fault that I am fat, Burger King shouldn't have sold to me.
It's not my fault that I am a drug addicted loser, crack is so cheap and available!!
It' s not my fault I got fred, the game companies should shut down the servers during work hours...its not my fault see?!!
There used to be something called personal respnsibility, and something called willpower. Sadly it seems to most pople to be an old-fashioned concept.
I think it is the producers fault when they design their game to be HUGE timesinks and "just another level or mob". A game where the best items only accessible to people on welfare or people risking RL relationships or committments, ain't good for you. The old RPG designers of D&D put in a rule that you couldn't level more than one level pr. session. Maybe the MMO industry should make the same limitation, so that the game creates more fun and less RL loosers.
In Asia they take it very seriously now, China has implemented laws preventing minors from playing more than five hours a day, and China, Korea and Japan all have laws that can be invoked if the game is deemed to be not taking the welfare of the players seriously. In Europe you could even get the Human Rights act invoked to challenge the attitude and nature of some MMO companies, but in the US.. well the players will prevent anything ever happening because they value their freedoms too much.
However, timesinks aren't addictive, in fact for your average gamer MMOs aren't fun beyond the social interaction, they aren't as good as a single player game in any aspect except the interaction with other people. Combat, story, level design, etc, all are usually simplified to cater to more people trying to do it at the same time. So you can't blame the game, they appeal to a type of person though, and that's no different to how GTA appeals to a certain type of person or Barbie Horse Adventure appeals to another type. You can't blame a game for providing what the players want.
Comments
Id check your sources.. Ive had to do a few papers about Video game addiction and its almost a joke how they diagnose it.
Not all journals should be taken as the word of god.. some of there methods are hillarious, as well their evidence to support their claims almost laughable.
Edit: and as a note, you idea of video games releasing chemicals thus your able to be addicted. By that definition you could be addicted to the sun, or anything in the world because everything is a chemical in the brain...
The very logic your using is the crazy logic im talking about making those articles less than reliable.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
I think the AMA is absolutely wrong. There is a segment of the population that is wired this way. The same underlying symptoms are exactly the same for gambling addicts. It is a combination of company's supplying the product to a niche market that can tend to get addicted.
by this logic we should be going after sports teams for getting young people addicted to sports... a dead end hobby that only very few of them will ever make a living out of and many will end up having to go to trade school or McDonalds cause they didnt make the cut.I think the AMA is absolutely wrong. There is a segment of the population that is wired this way. The same underlying symptoms are exactly the same for gambling addicts. It is a combination of company's supplying the product to a niche market that can tend to get addicted.
The same underlying symptoms? Aids and the cold have the same underlying symptoms.. are the the same thing?
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
It's not the drug dealer's fault that you're a crack head. It's not McDonald's fault that you're fat. And it's not NCsoft's fault that you cant pay your bills because you want to impress your guild w/ your new set of armor.
I was addicted to FFXI for three years, and i'm still paying debt collectors because of it. I quit my job so i could play 12+ hours a day. Nothing got paid and my bedroom in my moms house still probably smells like my unwashed ass. I really wish that i was making this up, looking back i dont know what the hell i was thinking, but at the time it seemed like a good idea, i guess.
I still play MMOs to use up my free time, but i will never let that happen again. And i will never blame anyone but myself for what happened.
There is no best MMORPG, only favorites.
If you are wired that way then how do you fix it? Where is the MEDICAL tests to prove you are wired that way? In fact where are the medical tests to prove ANYTHING like this?I think the AMA is absolutely wrong. There is a segment of the population that is wired this way. The same underlying symptoms are exactly the same for gambling addicts. It is a combination of company's supplying the product to a niche market that can tend to get addicted.
You just want another excuse to dish out drugs to sane people and make shrinks more money.
Completely the games fault for making them addictive with a reward system and timesinks.
Gamers who were never addicted to normal games before are suddenly addicted to MMO.
Someone said it before in this thread, gamers often hate the MMO and the company but continue to play the game. That's because of how the game is designed.
There were tests with brain scans that found out MMO stimulate a part of the brain that can lead to addiction.
More so than other forms of entertainment.
It just proves they're addictive. Not that another person is more addictive than someone else though.
I'm not disputing that games are addictive, just that those who get addictive are physically or mentally ill / disabled. They aren't, there is nothing wrong with them, they are normal people who happen to have low will power, that isn't WRONG, that is just different.
And any pleasure activity causes chemicals to be released in the brain and heightened brain activity, it's not unique to gaming or MMOs. I know a person who played Halo 8 hours a day seven days a week, but he finds MMOs boring as hell. Addiction to an MMO is the same as any other addiction to something you enjoy doing.
Threads like this bother me... Why? Because quite simply the "experts" in these kinds of things can't even agree on what causes addiction. There is no 100% set of descriptors that can guarantee you will or won't be addicted. They have a general consensus that most people who become addicts share a common subset of descriptors. However, its still not something that the experts can agree 100% on. They have moved more in the direction of the term "addictive personality" but many still argue about even that.
So when I see threads like this.. and I don't post this to offend anyone in this thread. I often wonder how the internet is so full of people who can tell me what... People with PhD's.. Medical Degrees etc can't.
Addiction is NOT recognized as a different "disease" or whatever term you want to apply.. due to the source of the addiction.
One poster who stated that the way the games are designed... people hate the company but keep playing.. due to some time vs. reward design. That might describe something.. but its not addiction.
Whether its a chemical or a behaviour... its not viewed differently by addiction "experts".
People get addicted to about everything you can imagine.
I don't know that you can really apply the term "fault" because that implies blame.
Oh and to add a bit of humor... or at least try.
I personally don't see the current MMO's as rewarding me for sitting through their crappy gameplay mechanics. Its more like banging my head into a wall... so it feels very good when I... stop.
Thus came about... my cancel button signature. (so maybe I'm addicted to .. quitting).
Something to remember when ppl discuss this:
There is no warning on the box that says the game can lead to addiction. A person usually can't state with certainty that they are perceptible to it.
You can't compare this to drugs or alcohol at all. People usually know those risks.
Blaming the gamer when an addiction does occur is a bit easy. The MMO created the situation the person is in now. It's up to the person to cut her losses, but the MMO was the cause of the situation.
I think MMO are much more to blame than the player in those circumstances.
Having sex can also be addicting... so should people get a big label over their body parts stating that sex can lead to addiction?
There are so many things that people get "addicted" to. Let's just look at this issue this way: MMO is NOT the only game that can be addicting, so does other types of game. Some are addicted to RTS (some game session lasted 3+ hrs, similar to MMO). So in that case, we say video games can be addicting, but so can everything else when it's not take in moderation.
You say MMO are designed this way... but there more people who can treat it as what it is - a game, and not be controlled by it.
In the end, a person have to face his/her responsibility, and know the consequences of their choice. (Most games, MMO included, are based on the players' choice on whether they play or not. Only those who have problems in real life and want to escape find these games to be their way - hence they are addicted to it.)
So the problem isn't whether the game is addicting, or who's to blame, but what drives those who want to escape real-life in a game? This then becomes social issue. You go after the ROOT of the issue, not the by-product of the issue.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
The AMA once denied that smoking was addictive. I wouldn't hold much stock in this opinion if I were anyone with half a brain cell.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
by this logic we should be going after sports teams for getting young people addicted to sports... a dead end hobby that only very few of them will ever make a living out of and many will end up having to go to trade school or McDonalds cause they didnt make the cut.I think the AMA is absolutely wrong. There is a segment of the population that is wired this way. The same underlying symptoms are exactly the same for gambling addicts. It is a combination of company's supplying the product to a niche market that can tend to get addicted.
The same underlying symptoms? Aids and the cold have the same underlying symptoms.. are the the same thing?
This is what we would call logic 101. Gambling is not a physical addiction like drugs. Its strictly a behavior addiction in the same way becoming addicted to videogames. If Gambling addiction is acknowledged, then there is absolutely no way video game addiction cannot be classified in the same manner.
Something else to remember: you make your own choices.
Quit trying to pass the blame, unless a person is tied down and forced to participate in something until they are addicted to it - it is 100% their responsibility.
Something else to remember: you make your own choices.
Quit trying to pass the blame, unless a person is tied down and forced to participate in something until they are addicted to it - it is 100% their responsibility.
Yes, you do.
Does that mean we can't warn people of bad choices.
Does that mean we don't draw a line somewhere and protect people.
We shouldn't let companies make these decisions for us and give them free reign, that's what's happening in the US and Europe.
I'm sure some don't want to hear it, but China does do something about these problems and is giving the right example.
So the problem isn't whether the game is addicting, or who's to blame, but what drives those who want to escape real-life in a game? This then becomes social issue. You go after the ROOT of the issue, not the by-product of the issue.
Ya, it is a bigger problem Forcan.
What I am VERY much opposed to is that MMO's have the means to exploit this.
I think we should do both, help and look at the root problem but also make sure an MMO cannot exploit that and ruin the lives of those people.
So the problem isn't whether the game is addicting, or who's to blame, but what drives those who want to escape real-life in a game? This then becomes social issue. You go after the ROOT of the issue, not the by-product of the issue.
Ya, it is a bigger problem Forcan.
What I am VERY much opposed to is that MMO's have the means to exploit this.
I think we should do both, help and look at the root problem but also make sure an MMO cannot exploit that and ruin the lives of those people.
You are looking at this issue with a bias view point. If the root problem is taken care of, then this issue with MMO isn't an issue, period.
How does MMO exploit this problem? Like movies and TV, even music, it is a form of entertainment. As I've stated before, some can treat their leisure activities with responsibility, some can't. So then why do you think should be done with this "issue"? There are more people who understand of this and can control themselves, and there are people who can't. But ultimately is those who can't that has the problem with such activity. They are victims of their own action and choice, then why put the responsibility on someone else?
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Games like MMOs and competitive FPS can be addictive. They are designed to be mildly addictive, but the effects differ from person to person. The player is NOT the only person at fault. The companies are just as bad too in some cases.
World of Warcraft is such a beautiful example. LEt me paint 2 scenerios here.
1. you lvl fomr 1 - 60 in wow. It's the typically solo questing and small instances with a 5 man group.
Your friends call you. they say "DUDE!! come join us for [insert favorite activity here]." You say yes. You tell your group you have to go and you log out for some fun. There is no addiction here. You leave when you want, and come back when you want. Yet you still get the rewards you desire and the fun you want.
2. Now you're lvl 70 and you just signed up for a big 3 hour raid on a specific date. You are one of the few people in your guild with the equipment to do the job correctly. The dungeon requires a specific group makeup and you are THE KEY person in the raid. Due to the difficulty the raid has gone into overtime of 5 hours now. You are making progress and you could reach the end tonight.
Midway through the raid your bros call you up. "DUDE!!!! come join us for [insert once in a lifeteme experience here]." Will you say yes?
If you leave, you may let 40 of your guildies down. 10 of them are good friends. You will probably be replaced and miss out one getting this task done and getting uber items.
Sadly many people would choose "no" due to the pressure of so many peers relying on them.
Now whos fault is it for making a good game but including a raiding system that will literally sink 5 hours out of your day? Who's fault is it for not makeing it a short instance and for making it so damn hard that a specific team is required? Whos fault is it forcing your to go through this instance just so you can continue on to other parts of the game afterwards? It's the game creators fault. It's your fault for enjoying the game for so long that ou became attached to your accomplishments (aka character).
WoW is notorious for starting out very nice and casual. But when you get to the end game content, you will soon find out that you need to invest massive amounts of time to experience the good stuff. You need to prgress thoguh things in a certain order. If you cant? Then your stuck trying to leech off of other more powerful players who have the time to go through those areas. Anyone remeber ranked PvP in WoW?
What makes you think his friends in WoW are any less real that his friends who come round his house? Maybe they are even the same people?
Games are addictive, it's not just MMOs, and the thing the developers are exploiting are the player's need to be someone, not any magic thing that is known to be addictive. A market research poll last year showed that the majority of MMO gamers are achievers, they want to get something back for the time they put in, they want that extra level, they want that cool item, they want to be the best.
Developers do exploit the behavioural pattern of the average MMO player, but they do not exploit some mythical addiction attribute.
As I have said previously, I have known people who have been addicted to single player games and non-MMO games, usually they are console gamers too. It's not an MMO specific thing.
"Game addiction" isn't even a physical addiction, it's a pyschological addiction.
The point is, they aren't even making something toxic. They are making something enjoyable. It comes down to personal responsibility.
People with no willpower, absurdly addictive personalities, or weak minds develop that pyschological addiction. They are the problem here. And if it wasn't games, it would be something else.
Even if your reply is "Well, they are victims and its not their fault," it still doesn't become the producer's responsibility. That's like me cooking your friend a tasty meal and then you getting pissy at me when your friend eats until he/she dies or refuses to chew it properly and chokes to death. It's not like I gave him/her a grenade with the pin pulled out.
I have the same problem with people saying videogames encourage violence. People used to kill each other over the drop of a hat before! Violence isn't new.
The movie Scream sums this up very well:
"Movies don't create pyschos. Movies make pyschos more creative."
Same is true for games, or books, or whatever else.
I think it is the producers fault when they design their game to be HUGE timesinks and "just another level or mob". A game where the best items only accessible to people on welfare or people risking RL relationships or committments, ain't good for you.
The old RPG designers of D&D put in a rule that you couldn't level more than one level pr. session. Maybe the MMO industry should make the same limitation, so that the game creates more fun and less RL loosers.
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And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
I am of the opinion that all adiction is the users fault, whether that be drugs or something silly like playing wow. It seems to me that everyone wants a free ride these days.No one wants to take personal responsibility for anything...
Its not my fault that I am fat, Burger King shouldn't have sold to me.
It's not my fault that I am a drug addicted loser, crack is so cheap and available!!
It' s not my fault I got fred, the game companies should shut down the servers during work hours...its not my fault see?!!
There used to be something called personal respnsibility, and something called willpower. Sadly it seems to most pople to be an old-fashioned concept.
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Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
In Asia they take it very seriously now, China has implemented laws preventing minors from playing more than five hours a day, and China, Korea and Japan all have laws that can be invoked if the game is deemed to be not taking the welfare of the players seriously. In Europe you could even get the Human Rights act invoked to challenge the attitude and nature of some MMO companies, but in the US.. well the players will prevent anything ever happening because they value their freedoms too much.
However, timesinks aren't addictive, in fact for your average gamer MMOs aren't fun beyond the social interaction, they aren't as good as a single player game in any aspect except the interaction with other people. Combat, story, level design, etc, all are usually simplified to cater to more people trying to do it at the same time. So you can't blame the game, they appeal to a type of person though, and that's no different to how GTA appeals to a certain type of person or Barbie Horse Adventure appeals to another type. You can't blame a game for providing what the players want.
there arent any addictive games anymore...
arguing with a corporate fanboi is like teaching special education.
even if you teach him something...at the end of the day he's still retarded.