What the current crop of SOE apologists really hate is that we, the disgruntled vets, have won. Not winning in the sense of getting pre-CU back because we have accepted that will never happen but have won in the sense that the NGE is a game on its deathbed. Don't listen to anything we say--just go check the official forums and see where every third post is a current player complaining about the low population. They are *begging* for a response from the developers on the issue and so far the only response they have is that they are going to be introducing some "grouping tools" that will somehow help. We don't have to lie to prospective players, we don't have to make up statistics about the population--the current players are doing our job for us. Every time one of them makes a post about the low population or about yet another game mechanic being nerfed we have won. The current players are begging us to come back and repopulate their empty servers and they are gnashing their teeth trying to come up with a way to counter the extremely bad reputation that SOE and SWG have. Smed has admitted that the NGE was a mistake. Jeff Freeman has admitted that the people that actually created the NGE didn't give a damn about the players who had stuck with the game from the beginning. The NGE has become a cautionary tale of how *not* to treat your customers and SOE has become the laughing stock of the mmorpg community. So for all the fanboys and apologists: Get over it and move on. We won.
The Devs have said they are working on the issue of low populations on some servers and server merging. But as for SWG on its deathbed, dream on, thats been said for 2 years now and its in a lot better position than it was a year ago. So how exactly have you won?
You dont have to lie to prospective players? then why do you (not you personally, in general). Im definately, certainly, 100% sure i dont want some of you guys to come back to the game. Its hard to counter SWG's terrible reputation, but im trying, because the only reason its there is because its being wrongly perpetuated by people like you. People do complain about the game on the forums, they're bound to, but not as much as they used to and a large percentage is happy enough to keep playing the game and enjoying it.
So for all the people like you: please stop trying to turn our valid point of "get over it" on us, it doesnt work. And we won - swg is not close to shutting down, and when it does, the time between the release of the NGE and it's end will be be an obvious indicator that it shutdown because of age and fast moving technology, like any other game that needs to be ended after too long.
as far as i am concerned, i have not seen a single lie comming from the vets
on the other hand ive seen plenty from current players (most of who have never played pre-Cu/NGE)and from SOE.
and as for a few posts above me,
i would probably pay an SOE game if they payed me (at leat untill i get my money back for the box of my useless CD) and yes i call it useless because the CD installation files says that there are 32 professions, therefore the service i payed for is not the service available. (P.S. so does the instruction manual)
What the current crop of SOE apologists really hate is that we, the disgruntled vets, have won. Not winning in the sense of getting pre-CU back because we have accepted that will never happen but have won in the sense that the NGE is a game on its deathbed. Don't listen to anything we say--just go check the official forums and see where every third post is a current player complaining about the low population. They are *begging* for a response from the developers on the issue and so far the only response they have is that they are going to be introducing some "grouping tools" that will somehow help. We don't have to lie to prospective players, we don't have to make up statistics about the population--the current players are doing our job for us. Every time one of them makes a post about the low population or about yet another game mechanic being nerfed we have won. The current players are begging us to come back and repopulate their empty servers and they are gnashing their teeth trying to come up with a way to counter the extremely bad reputation that SOE and SWG have. Smed has admitted that the NGE was a mistake. Jeff Freeman has admitted that the people that actually created the NGE didn't give a damn about the players who had stuck with the game from the beginning. The NGE has become a cautionary tale of how *not* to treat your customers and SOE has become the laughing stock of the mmorpg community. So for all the fanboys and apologists: Get over it and move on. We won.
The Devs have said they are working on the issue of low populations on some servers and server merging. But as for SWG on its deathbed, dream on, thats been said for 2 years now and its in a lot better position than it was a year ago. So how exactly have you won?
You dont have to lie to prospective players? then why do you (not you personally, in general). Im definately, certainly, 100% sure i dont want some of you guys to come back to the game. Its hard to counter SWG's terrible reputation, but im trying, because the only reason its there is because its being wrongly perpetuated by people like you. People do complain about the game on the forums, they're bound to, but not as much as they used to and a large percentage is happy enough to keep playing the game and enjoying it.
So for all the people like you: please stop trying to turn our valid point of "get over it" on us, it doesnt work. And we won - swg is not close to shutting down, and when it does, the time between the release of the NGE and it's end will be be an obvious indicator that it shutdown because of age and fast moving technology, like any other game that needs to be ended after too long.
as far as i am concerned, i have not seen a single lie comming from the vets
on the other hand ive seen plenty from current players (most of who have never played pre-Cu/NGE)and from SOE.
and as for a few posts above me,
i would probably pay an SOE game if they payed me (at leat untill i get my money back for the box of my useless CD) and yes i call it useless because the CD installation files says that there are 32 professions, therefore the service i payed for is not the service available. (P.S. so does the instruction manual)
Checkout the general discussion forums, fortunately, most recently, people like me, badgesmaker, obraik and Jenus have been there to respond to prospective players politely and helpfully before people like iwantmyswg struts in and starts pulling his "facts" (aka lies) out. But a couple of weeks ago this was happening alot and its still does. And what lies have you seen from current players?
Making positive spin for the NGE to prospective players is cynical and immoral, IMHO. And it won't work in the end. Nor is it going to stave off cancellation.
SOE will never get flaming poop in a bag from me ever again, much less $14.99. Even if they did classic servers. I'm past even really wanting them. The best indictment of the current game I can offer: I wouldn't play it for $14.99 I wouldn't play it for $9.99 I wouldn't play it for $4.99 I wouldn't play it for $.99 I wouldn't play it for free. I wouldn't play it if they PAID ME.
Lets not get stupid here i mean i can think of worse jobs than playing a shit game all day and being paid. I mean if they paid me like £50 a hour i'd do it lol.
Making positive spin for the NGE to prospective players is cynical and immoral, IMHO. And it won't work in the end. Nor is it going to stave off cancellation.
Wow..... Cynical and immoral? Righteous much ,salvaje? A game was changed, it's not like the NGE was built on the backs of exploited child labor who were eventually incinerated.
While the NGE may not have been built on the backs of child labor, it WAS built out of ill gotten funds stolen from the vet players, who were misled into thinking that the CU game was going to remain. That is immoral.
Making positive spin for the NGE to prospective players is cynical and immoral, IMHO. And it won't work in the end. Nor is it going to stave off cancellation.
Wow..... Cynical and immoral? Righteous much ,salvaje? A game was changed, it's not like the NGE was built on the backs of exploited child labor who were eventually incinerated.
QFT
LOL, you know what is more funny than that!
Right now you have 2 games
Pre-CU/NGE and NGE
The vets played Pre-CU and have no idea what the hell is going on in NGE ( and if they do they do not belong here because they caved in to the "fight the power" and played NGE)
And Non-vets who play the NGE, these are the new players or the ones who did not care about the change and stayed in the game anyway.
Neither of these SWG eras are alike. I played them both. They are like 2 different games.
Soooooooo, this is what I do not get. SWG is still alive and kicking and still makes money (shocking but true !!!) New players start playing the NGE and have no clue about anything before NGE. The vets that stuck it out are still there ( there are plenty of them still there trust me) and they have thier take on the NGE.
So you wonder into the SWG forums, where NGE players are trying to help NGE players and boost "thier" game back up. Vets do not fall into the "thier" catagory anymore we all quit a long time ago, I don't think we really have a right to call something we no longer play "ours". So back to the problem at hand, what do these NGE players get for trying to give an honest opinion the current state of the game. A blast of shit from disgruntled vets who DON'T EVEN PLAY NGE!!! What is the purpose of this? Let these new guys enjoy a game they are paying for.
I will spin it another way. Reverse it, what would happen if NGE was the start of it all and it got changed to a Pre-CU in the end. All you vets would be there playing and all these NGE guys would be in here crying after years, trying to ruin your experience in a game your playing. It isn't very cool of people to do this.
Your real beef is with SOE, don't bash these new guys for trying to enjoy star wars. I see vets all the time end a post with this quote "to each their own", but none of you live by it. Go picket SOE headquarters if you like. Just stop the non-sense with the new players. We wonder why we are called insane or crazy. You ever stop to look at some of the crap the vets actually post and say.....
Making positive spin for the NGE to prospective players is cynical and immoral, IMHO. And it won't work in the end. Nor is it going to stave off cancellation.
Wow..... Cynical and immoral? Righteous much ,salvaje? A game was changed, it's not like the NGE was built on the backs of exploited child labor who were eventually incinerated.
QFT
LOL, you know what is more funny than that!
Right now you have 2 games
Pre-CU/NGE and NGE
The vets played Pre-CU and have no idea what the hell is going on in NGE ( and if they do they do not belong here because they caved in to the "fight the power" and played NGE)
And Non-vets who play the NGE, these are the new players or the ones who did not care about the change and stayed in the game anyway.
Neither of these SWG eras are alike. I played them both. They are like 2 different games.
Soooooooo, this is what I do not get. SWG is still alive and kicking and still makes money (shocking but true !!!) New players start playing the NGE and have no clue about anything before NGE. The vets that stuck it out are still there ( there are plenty of them still there trust me) and they have thier take on the NGE.
So you wonder into the SWG forums, where NGE players are trying to help NGE players and boost "thier" game back up. Vets do not fall into the "thier" catagory anymore we all quit a long time ago, I don't think we really have a right to call something we no longer play "ours". So back to the problem at hand, what do these NGE players get for trying to give an honest opinion the current state of the game. A blast of shit from disgruntled vets who DON'T EVEN PLAY NGE!!! What is the purpose of this? Let these new guys enjoy a game they are paying for.
I will spin it another way. Reverse it, what would happen if NGE was the start of it all and it got changed to a Pre-CU in the end. All you vets would be there playing and all these NGE guys would be in here crying after years, trying to ruin your experience in a game your playing. It isn't very cool of people to do this.
Your real beef is with SOE, don't bash these new guys for trying to enjoy star wars. I see vets all the time end a post with this quote "to each their own", but none of you live by it. Go picket SOE headquarters if you like. Just stop the non-sense with the new players. We wonder why we are called insane or crazy. You ever stop to look at some of the crap the vets actually post and say.....
We do it to ourselves.
Well, the current players are just as guilty of bashing, flaming and so on as much as the worst are here. Actually the discussions here have been very civil and mature lately, except for the few on both sides that seemingly have self control problems.
It's not all the vets fault. I don't come here to flame anyone. I come to discuss the old game and discourage any lies that are being told by some of the extremely rabid fans of the game.
Well, the current players are just as guilty of bashing, flaming and so on as much as the worst are here. Actually the discussions here have been very civil and mature lately, except for the few on both sides that seemingly have self control problems.
It's not all the vets fault. I don't come here to flame anyone. I come to discuss the old game and discourage any lies that are being told by some of the extremely rabid fans of the game.
I completely understand what your saying, the point to my post was, the vets want something done, or the lack there of and SOE to pay for it's mistakes. That is fine, I get it, I understand.
The NGE players should seriously just stick to talking about the NGE because that is all they know and stay out of vet discussions, on the same token, vets need to stay the hell out of the current SWG live forums and just let those guys play the game and enjoy it if that is what they are doing. Same for NGE players coming here to the vet forum trying to elaborate on the NGE and tell you guys to quit talking about it.
If the vets are sticking to Pre-CU topics ONLY, then it is fine.
Long story short NGE players should stick to what they know and play the NGE.
Vets should stick to what they know Pre-CU and trying to take down a technological empire like Sony.
If they actually did this.... there would be no fight.
Vets do not stick to SOE discussions and pre-cu topics only tho, they are still trying to cause damage by bashing NGE players, telling them it is a shitty game. Of course this only sets the NGE players on the defensive, which later turns into an offensive strike against the vets to leave them alone in the game they are playing.
NGE players now come into this forum trying to understand why we are the way we are, and bashing us as whiners, cryers, crazies, who just can't "get over it".
I hate to say it but it is a vicious cycle that will never end really.
Vets will never really win as SOE will keep SWG going forever as long as it turns a profit, which with the station pass it will continue to do so for quite some time to come.
NGE players will never win because the vets out number them 10 to 1. So it will always go round and round till the end of time.
Just like this little jewel here. It is a perfect example of what NOT to do.
Brought to you by our good friend Salvaje from 2 post up. Intentionally trying to instigate a fight with an NGE player who is trying to do something worth while for the current players.
While the NGE may not have been built on the backs of child labor, it WAS built out of ill gotten funds stolen from the vet players, who were misled into thinking that the CU game was going to remain. That is immoral.
"ill gotten funds?" C'mon. So, first you're trying to tell SOE what it can and can't do with its service and now you're trying to tell it how to spend its revenues? If they wanted to, they could have just paid the csr's and the electric bill, then kept the rest and you wouldn't have had any say --if they did that, their revenues still wouldn't have been ill-gotten or immoral.
There was no investment, you weren't investing in changes -- you were buying for the moment. And anyone with those long terms subscription plans, I've already adressed that in post 39.
Originally posted by therain93 Originally posted by salvaje While the NGE may not have been built on the backs of child labor, it WAS built out of ill gotten funds stolen from the vet players, who were misled into thinking that the CU game was going to remain. That is immoral.
"ill gotten funds?" C'mon. So, first you're trying to tell SOE what it can and can't do with its service and now you're trying to tell it how to spend its revenues? If they wanted to, they could have just paid the csr's and the electric bill, then kept the rest and you wouldn't have had any say --if they did that, their revenues still wouldn't have been ill-gotten or immoral. There was no investment, you weren't investing in changes -- you were buying for the moment. And anyone with those long terms subscription plans, I've already adressed that in post 39.
Many of us DID try to get our money back. I was denied. There were no refunds for yearly or quarterly subscriptions. There were many who attempted to get a refund for pre-paid time, but the answer was always no. Yes, I could have done a charge back because of their lack of discretion.
I chose to believe the devs that they were working to improve the NGE. I stayed beyond my year's subscription too. I was waiting on various issues to be addressed. In a way, I expected another revamp. I finally cancelled, for good, after the medic chapter. The effects of the profession made me finally realize that this was no longer my game or my virtual world. I knew the game was never going to get better.
To leave basic issues like combat speed and the associated lag, the lack of animations and over the top effects, and npc's that no longer behaved like they had any intelligence behind them is not something I am willing to pay for. I would NEVER accept a quality level this low in a real world product. I feel a lot better not being taken advantage of because I like Star Wars. Star Wars fans deserve a quality experience and the NGE is NOT it.
You fight because you have nothing better to do. Pre-CU is gone, and its not coming back. Many of us have accepted it. Why can't you?
There are simply much larger issues here then just about pre-CU.
I choose to speak out because I don't want to bury my head in the sand.
I have no idea what this means.
No, I don't believe you do. Which makes it all the more disappointing that you would make comments like the one you did.
I've been trying to make a point on these forums that it is not so much about a game but about a product, and the lack of control we as consumers have over the product we bought.
I choose to be vocal about SWG because of the example it set for the industry in general. To accept it is to condone these actions which will hurt us further as consumers.
Just imagine what a "successful" NGE would mean to MMO gamers. What MMO would be next? How can I have any confidence in buying another MMO? How can I be assured that the investment of time I put into a game isn't dismantled at a moments notice because the developer wanted to attract a different playerbase?
All I ask is for others to consider the repercussions of something like the NGE before telling others to "accept it".
No one bought a product, it was a service and your investment is an illusion -- there is no assurance to have just like there's no assurance that HBO won't cancel its tv shows and merge with Showtime. People crying over the end of the sopranos won't get it brought back, it was a business decision to end it just like the NGE was a business decision...all figure point to a bad one, but still SOE's to make and that you must accept.
Sooo... you're saying that if I take out a contract with a cleaning company to come clean my office (with a specific list attached as to what that entails) once a weak, it's ok if that company suddenly decides on its own that the toilets don't need cleaning, and that the walls need painting, even though the first was in the contract and the second was not?
Sorry, but that's not how it works. In the world I live in, there's a HUGE difference between reasonable changes (e.g. changing the cleaning fluids into something more enviromentally friendly) and uncalled for changes, that redefine the product or service.
Linna
Last I checked, the subscription was at your option -- you could cancel the service subscription if you didn't like the changes. Heck, they were even refunding the people who bought trials of obi-wan that took the initiative to say they didn't like the changes. By the way, did your SWG EULA and ToS have a specific list of deliverables? They're still delivering a game in the star wars universe where you can be a variety of characters and run missions or just sit and chat.
You are completely bypassing the fact that the description on the box and manual I bought says I bought an entirely different game. Yes, I cancelled the service, But I'm still angry that they changed the service I contracted for to something entirely different, and in such an offhanded and dismissive way.
If you want to play the game SWG has become, be my guest. But don't try and deny me the right to be angry about being banned for posting a simple compiled bug list, for seeing my guild scatter to the four winds, for being told 'daddy knows best' by a bunch of juvenile delinquents 10 years younger than me.
Once again, there's a big difference between reasonable changes and completely rewriting the core of the game. Oh, and before I forget: I am not a star wars fan (I couldn't care less) and I HATE running missions. I signed on for a sandbox, not for megaquest.
Linna
ICK, NO! I don't play this game and I'm not knocking your right to be angry -- I was disappointed and angry with the game from day 1, shipped relatively incomplete with broken classes du jour. I absolutely believe that vets should mourn the loss of the game but will adamantly counter those posters in denial who believe that they are/were entitled to their old game.
You're right though, I am bypassing the descripton of the game from years ago, but you do see my point, don't you? They have the right to do business (for better or for worse) as they choose and we as consumers have the choice to be patrons. Would there be this much heartache if the game was just flat out cancelled? This is the sticking point for so many I think. Vets would have closure if the game was just shut down but they see it up and running like an ex out on a date and it upsets them...still. The problem is, vets are only one side of the part and SOE, like an ex, moves on and goes out about business.
As for re-writing core mechanics of the game, I think it's within the company's right so long as it is delivering on the tagline of 'living in the star wars universe', which you still can do.
ps, I'm hoping not to repeat myself as a few people have responded to me ( ' :
Don't you think they should have said something about the upcoming NGE in the dev chats with players about the Trials of Obi Wan? Don't you think it's unethical to say to players things like: "you're going to love the new features in ToOW for Creature Handlers, make sure to pre-order today!" while they KNEW they were going to delete that profession and render the features useless right after the pre-order visa payments went through? This is just one example of many of the features that were advertised to players, sold to players, and then rendered useless by the NGE before people could use what they just paid for. Can you not see how this goes far beyond simply making modifications to an online game over time?
You fight because you have nothing better to do. Pre-CU is gone, and its not coming back. Many of us have accepted it. Why can't you?
There are simply much larger issues here then just about pre-CU.
I choose to speak out because I don't want to bury my head in the sand.
I have no idea what this means.
No, I don't believe you do. Which makes it all the more disappointing that you would make comments like the one you did.
I've been trying to make a point on these forums that it is not so much about a game but about a product, and the lack of control we as consumers have over the product we bought.
I choose to be vocal about SWG because of the example it set for the industry in general. To accept it is to condone these actions which will hurt us further as consumers.
Just imagine what a "successful" NGE would mean to MMO gamers. What MMO would be next? How can I have any confidence in buying another MMO? How can I be assured that the investment of time I put into a game isn't dismantled at a moments notice because the developer wanted to attract a different playerbase?
All I ask is for others to consider the repercussions of something like the NGE before telling others to "accept it".
No one bought a product, it was a service and your investment is an illusion -- there is no assurance to have just like there's no assurance that HBO won't cancel its tv shows and merge with Showtime. People crying over the end of the sopranos won't get it brought back, it was a business decision to end it just like the NGE was a business decision...all figure point to a bad one, but still SOE's to make and that you must accept.
Sooo... you're saying that if I take out a contract with a cleaning company to come clean my office (with a specific list attached as to what that entails) once a weak, it's ok if that company suddenly decides on its own that the toilets don't need cleaning, and that the walls need painting, even though the first was in the contract and the second was not?
Sorry, but that's not how it works. In the world I live in, there's a HUGE difference between reasonable changes (e.g. changing the cleaning fluids into something more enviromentally friendly) and uncalled for changes, that redefine the product or service.
Linna
Last I checked, the subscription was at your option -- you could cancel the service subscription if you didn't like the changes. Heck, they were even refunding the people who bought trials of obi-wan that took the initiative to say they didn't like the changes. By the way, did your SWG EULA and ToS have a specific list of deliverables? They're still delivering a game in the star wars universe where you can be a variety of characters and run missions or just sit and chat.
In fact SOE did advertise specific features in the ToOW expansion, which it then removed from the game immediately after purchase. This was an example of advertising one service and providing another. SOE recognized their error, and refunded everyone with a legitimate grievance. Since SOE acknowledged this error, provided a refund, and since they've publically apologized for the NGE in its entirety and for the way it was delivered, you just seem to be in some kind of denial by trying to say that no wrong was done. Both sides of the issue agree that a wrong was done, an apology and a refund followed--albeit the apology took about 2 years in the making.
Also, SOE's legal dept. knows, I'm sure, as do the lawyers I associate with, that a EULA does not allow someone to market one service KNOWING that they will be delivering something else. Modifications are allowed for, yes, of course, but fraudulent marketting practices are not "protected" by a EULA, hence the massive refund campaign, fyi.
Hmmm, denial, it's interesting who can claim who is in denial.
You're muddying the waters though. Sure, both sides agree that a wrong was done, but I don't think they agree what that "wrong" really was. The right to alter that service is wholly separate from ToOW marketing and packaging shenanigans. Of course, ToOW package can be presented as bait and switch and, of course, it's wrong and not proctected by a EULA and, of course, that was the reason for the refund campaign because there is no way they could defend themselves.
BUT, don't mistake a refund/apology for the bait and switch shenanigans for a concession they didn't have the right to alter the game. And, please don't make the mistake of accepting Smedley's 2 year old apology as a genuine concession that they didn't have the right to change the game -- had the changes been successful and really pulled in the hundreds of thousands of $$ Smedley dreamed, then you wouldn't have had an apology. It was simply a strategic failure on their part and, at best, their final apology really reads as "We were wrong to think that dumping an existing subscriber base for a different demographic would yield more subscribers this time--I'm sorry our new plans failed to bring in those WoW revenues we dreamed of and also happened to cost us your patronage too, but we're gonna stick with this plan because to change back will just cost us more money. We learned there is some truth to that saying 'a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush', but if we were closer to that bush, we'd let go and pounce on those two. "
Ah ok, I just found this. Thank you for acknowledging the ToOW marketting fiasco. Like you, I do see these as seperate issues, to a degree.
I agree with you (I hope you were sitting down for that lol) that a game company has the right to modify it's game over time. My main disagreement was with the NGE "bait and switch" as its been called.
My second, but also major, concern was, just as you say, that the NGE was more than just an attempt to "upgrade" or "enhance" the game. It was an attempt to replace an existing subscriber base with a new and hopefully larger one. While that may not fit into the same category as a bait and switch, it's also not in the category of modifying combat functions, updating the HUD etc.. It showed a degree of indifference to players that I never expected to see, anywhere, and it really created an incredible mistrust between the gaming community and SOE.
Where things get muddy--not my doing by the way--is where SOE tried to pass off this population switch as a run of the mill MMO "upgrade" or "enhancement." I feel once again that this marketting campaign was dishonest. They weren't upgrading or enhancing the current game. They were tearing one game apart, and building another in its place. Calling that an upgrade or an enhancement just further undermines trust and credibility.
As for muddying things even further--again not my doing--marketting information in a game magazine said that it was the Trials of ObiWan that brought in the new iconic professions, and the more elegant combat. The NGE term was dropped entirely in this article, and the expansion and the NGE were portrayed as one and the same thing.
Again, clearly dishonest marketting an a number of levels. This kind of false advertising, misdirecting consumers is truly outrageous. If people are going to deal with SOE, they should be aware that this is who and what they're dealing with.
Believe me, if SOE canned all the people responsible for this kind of reprehensible garbage and began using a completely new advertising philosophy, I would be among the first to sing their praises. Until this happens though, I'm going to continue to say, "buyer beware."
I dont care to fight. Maybe 80% of the current SWG playerbase dont even knew Pre-CU SWG. So to them we are just talking rubbish.
Well apart from being curious about Pre-cu, you're probably right that a lot of what we say must sound like gibberish.
At the same time, current players (e.g. Saaay and others) are concerned about some of the empty servers and general population issue. I sympathize with their concern. I just think it's the "bad tidings" that need to be addressed, rather than the messengers.
I'd have a drink with Saaay and Obraik any day in celebration if SOE fixes collision detection, the group waypoint bug, the instancing bug, the combat speed related lag, the spawning in objects bug and if the specials function and fire consistently. If they give weaponsmiths a reason to be in the game again and if they open up a classic server to follow up their apology to veteran players, I might even have 2 drinks lol.
If SOE doesn't address those very reasonable issues in my view, I'll just keep waiting for another company to offer a StarWars MMO.
The existing player base is so small compared to those of us who were there on 11/2/2005 when the NGE bombshell was dropped on us that they are literally irrelevant to the argument.
That is harsh, but true. We outnumber them 9-1. They should be offended actually that ALL of SOE's (lackluster) efforts are actually more geared towards trying (in vain) to get us back instead of placate them.
Of course they can't possibly get us back so long as the NGE remains. Which makes it even more laughable and futile.
Well apart from being curious about Pre-cu, you're probably right that a lot of what we say must sound like gibberish.
At the same time, current players (e.g. Saaay and others) are concerned about some of the empty servers and general population issue. I sympathize with their concern. I just think it's the "bad tidings" that need to be addressed, rather than the messengers.
Well, the problem goes even a little deeper too....
In some earlier posts I noticed a guy (I forget his name...he was the one debating with me earlier in the thread) gave a good layout of the actual problems that exist between our two "factions". What it doesn't mention is why some of the vets are so hostile to the NGE players. While I'm not one for hostility....I do grasp where this stems from and why its critical to understand it.
In the eyes of every vet (yes that includes me, even if I choose not to take it out on them) every NGE player is a deadly cigarette in the hands of a lung cancer ridden patient. They fuel the problem by supporting the company and its choices with money. Had everyone just left the game for dead Sony would have been left no choice but to immediately atone for its actions. It would have forced their hand in rethinking the way they do business on EVERY level. But that isn't the case. These players represent a continuation of a serious problem in the industry...one that actually threatens to destroy this genre. Bear with me on this....I'm dead serious.
These games require constant investment. If at any time the players feel that they can no longer trust ANY company to keep their investment safe for them...they will pull out of this market. On a console one can always load up an old character and relive the fun of it for awhile. But when an MMO company makes a decision such as NGE...it completely removes that possibility from the hands of the MMO gamer. They lose everything they have been investing in....and its worse than losing a save file from a console game because THOSE only require that one time investment. No....the Pre-CU players lost hundreds to thousands of dollars in time-paid in that game. People will simply stop playing MMO's if this sort of behavior is even allowed to be thought passable.
People like Sajavae (or however its spelled) are very mean, and very aggressive. They love not only that game, but the genre. To accept anything SOE does is to ensure the very death of this genre. That sort of business practice must be destroyed ABSOLUTELY. I would prefer they destroy it by simply replacing it with better practices....but I can easily see why people like Saj believe that this will never happen and would just rather see the whole company burn.
So its not just about the good and bad guys on either side of the fence addressing concerns. Its actually a problem which spreads across a very large area and sadly forces us into a state of either witch burning, or somber submission to inevitable and complete genre death. I'm just glad Blizzard has been so much better about it.
Well, the problem goes even a little deeper too....
In some earlier posts I noticed a guy (I forget his name...he was the one debating with me earlier in the thread) gave a good layout of the actual problems that exist between our two "factions". What it doesn't mention is why some of the vets are so hostile to the NGE players. While I'm not one for hostility....I do grasp where this stems from and why its critical to understand it.
In the eyes of every vet (yes that includes me, even if I choose not to take it out on them) every NGE player is a deadly cigarette in the hands of a lung cancer ridden patient. They fuel the problem by supporting the company and its choices with money. Had everyone just left the game for dead Sony would have been left no choice but to immediately atone for its actions. It would have forced their hand in rethinking the way they do business on EVERY level. But that isn't the case. These players represent a continuation of a serious problem in the industry...one that actually threatens to destroy this genre. Bear with me on this....I'm dead serious.
These games require constant investment. If at any time the players feel that they can no longer trust ANY company to keep their investment safe for them...they will pull out of this market. On a console one can always load up an old character and relive the fun of it for awhile. But when an MMO company makes a decision such as NGE...it completely removes that possibility from the hands of the MMO gamer. They lose everything they have been investing in....and its worse than losing a save file from a console game because THOSE only require that one time investment. No....the Pre-CU players lost hundreds to thousands of dollars in time-paid in that game. People will simply stop playing MMO's if this sort of behavior is even allowed to be thought passable.
People like Sajavae (or however its spelled) are very mean, and very aggressive. They love not only that game, but the genre. To accept anything SOE does is to ensure the very death of this genre. That sort of business practice must be destroyed ABSOLUTELY. I would prefer they destroy it by simply replacing it with better practices....but I can easily see why people like Saj believe that this will never happen and would just rather see the whole company burn.
So its not just about the good and bad guys on either side of the fence addressing concerns. Its actually a problem which spreads across a very large area and sadly forces us into a state of either witch burning, or somber submission to inevitable and complete genre death. I'm just glad Blizzard has been so much better about it.
The part in yellow is something that your going to have to think long and hard about and just have to "grasp" in the terms of real life.
The vets have only one way of seeing things. They were wronged and want to see SOE pay for what has happened to them.
Problem with this is new players, NGE fanbois as they are called, were not wronged. They came in at a time after what the vets perceive as absolute SWG. They play a game from a point in time to the present. They like what they are playing because they never played before that time.
Vets are trying to stomp them out to further their goals to punish SOE. This is not fair to players of the current SWG. You hate them because they "feed a problem". To them SWG is not a problem so they do not understand your constant taunts and hatred. To them your just being a bunch of whiners and they want to be left alone to enjoy what they currently play.
From a vet standpoint, I understand how we all feel. It is not right nor fair to the NGE players who play and love SWG as it is now to be constantly bombarded with crap.
It is not so hard to believe that just because SOE has shadey business practices and did an in excusable thing several years ago, that players still want to play SWG. They are still there. They will remain there, no matter how hard everyone here fights to make them quit to kill off SWG for good. I hate to break it to everyone but that isn't going to happen. Anyone who thinks they are going to "kill" SWG for good is kidding themselves. Yeah we all cost them alot of money, so what. SWG remains. As long as it remains it means players are still enjoying it. Vets are being hypocritical to try and take that away from them just as SOE took away your game before the NGE. Vets are doing the same thing to NGE players that SOE did, the same thing which all vets hate.
How is it hypocritical to want a company to have to actually deal with the consequences of it's comportment and business practices?
If I attempt to defraud someone, I go to jail.
If I bait and switch someone, BBB climbs my tail.
If I lie to someone, I suffer consequences.
It could be said that it's hypocritical of anyone continuing to pay to play that title, that even though they know what that publisher did that they're going to support them anyway.
Do you support a politician after they've been shown to be a defrauder, liar(far too many times to look past), and a total turncoat in office?
Do you do business with a store or company that has been overwhelmingly shown to engage in long term fraud, bait and switch, and outright lying to the public THEN goes on to spin it like a Press Secretary and then, after YEARS of constant exposure, only give a small nod to the wrong it's done?
I don't. My ethics prevent me from doing so. Even if I'm not a customer of that business before the incident, if I found that Store X was guilty of those things, without any real defense or attempt at such showing the disdain they give those they've wronged...I'm definitely not doing business with them.
It's not like there's been an internal shake-up over this, not like anyone within the publishing house even so much as batted an eye on the matter. In short, they got away with it. They're STILL getting away with it because those that know of what they've done and how they obviously considered it internally are continuing to support that company financially, and just don't care. It didn't affect them, so it doesn't matter. Isn't it obvious how that sort of outlook totally beheads the accountability and path of consequences that is engendered into our economic system?
Now, how is it hypocritical for us...the angry vets...to want our economic system to provide the consequence said practices are supposed to provide.
It's not about SWG so much as an overall derailment of how we, the consumer base, should be able to reach consensus about the violation of trust and the cold disconcern of a company and support the path of consequences and accountability as a consumer-base that won't be mistreated in such a way. Unless there's a consensus within us, that player-base, then just like the ever-present danger in politics a company can consider us nothing more than numbers on a graph that they can treat as they like because as soon as enough of us get anything, they're solvent and don't have to pretend to care.
It's not those playing after the NGE that I dislike. More to the point it's that because they ARE paying to play that title that the impact of discontent and the consequence for that company' s actions are all the more diluted and far less likely to actually amount to anything.
Call me old fashioned, but that's how I feel.
Yes, I have anger issues. They taste like chocolate bunnies.
How is it hypocritical to want a company to have to actually deal with the consequences of it's comportment and business practices? If I attempt to defraud someone, I go to jail. If I bait and switch someone, BBB climbs my tail. If I lie to someone, I suffer consequences. It could be said that it's hypocritical of anyone continuing to pay to play that title, that even though they know what that publisher did that they're going to support them anyway. Do you support a politician after they've been shown to be a defrauder, liar(far too many times to look past), and a total turncoat in office? Do you do business with a store or company that has been overwhelmingly shown to engage in long term fraud, bait and switch, and outright lying to the public THEN goes on to spin it like a Press Secretary and then, after YEARS of constant exposure, only give a small nod to the wrong it's done? I don't. My ethics prevent me from doing so. Even if I'm not a customer of that business before the incident, if I found that Store X was guilty of those things, without any real defense or attempt at such showing the disdain they give those they've wronged...I'm definitely not doing business with them. It's not like there's been an internal shake-up over this, not like anyone within the publishing house even so much as batted an eye on the matter. In short, they got away with it. They're STILL getting away with it because those that know of what they've done and how they obviously considered it internally are continuing to support that company financially, and just don't care. It didn't affect them, so it doesn't matter. Isn't it obvious how that sort of outlook totally beheads the accountability and path of consequences that is engendered into our economic system? Now, how is it hypocritical for us...the angry vets...to want our economic system to provide the consequence said practices are supposed to provide. It's not about SWG so much as an overall derailment of how we, the consumer base, should be able to reach consensus about the violation of trust and the cold disconcern of a company and support the path of consequences and accountability as a consumer-base that won't be mistreated in such a way. Unless there's a consensus within us, that player-base, then just like the ever-present danger in politics a company can consider us nothing more than numbers on a graph that they can treat as they like because as soon as enough of us get anything, they're solvent and don't have to pretend to care. It's not those playing after the NGE that I dislike. More to the point it's that because they ARE paying to play that title that the impact of discontent and the consequence for that company' s actions are all the more diluted and far less likely to actually amount to anything. Call me old fashioned, but that's how I feel.
You still do not get it.
The vets are not 100% of the consumer base of SWG. If they were SWG would not exist as it would have 0... Zero.... Notta... players. You are but a slice of a pie. Not everyone feels wronged, not everyone agrees with a vet's way of thinking, not everyone thinks SOE did anything wrong at all.
For those that feel this way, you are but 1 side of a coin. You cannot change the world.
Even if you think you somehow have some magic wand you can wave and bring down SOE and SWG, you cannot. Just because you may believe SOE is one way does not hold true for 100% of the populous. You will NEVER change the mind of everyone. If this was possible, we would not have murder, theft, rape, cheating, evil in the world today. If 100% of everyone all thought like you maybe you would have a point here. Fact of the matter is, there is prolly at least 10,000 people still playing SWG who think otherwise. So they disagree with you and choose to like a game for the way it is.
Your beef is with SOE as a company and it's business practices, it isn't with those who choose to play a game for what it is now and enjoy it.
If you can't understand that then yes it is hypocritical.
If you'd read-to-comprehend my post it says that it's not those that are playing the game now that I have issue with, but the idea of that lack of consumer unity in totale.
The overwhelming majority of the player-base, in total, were affected. Those of us, these angry vets, that DID leave were the majority. Far more than just "one side of the coin". Just because some didn't doesn't relegate those that did to any sort of minority as they out-number the current player-base of the game.
My problem isn't with the present players. It's with the apathy to the event. The willingness to overlook past transgression for the sake of personal fulfillment, without there having ever really been any substantial reckoning for said events, thus supporting the transgressor and diluting the impact of the consequences of their actions.
Somehow, I fail to see anywhere in my post that speaks of magic-like solutions or bringing down the corporation as a whole. I also see no place in that post where I attack the people as individuals. As to what I believe...I believe in objective facts. The points that were made above listing out the entirety of the event in question are observable, objective facts. This isn't a matter of "what I believe"...it's what was done.
In the face of the facts of the event, if you're going to call anyone "hypocritical" then it'd be those that were present for said event, saw the impact that it made, consoled those that were effected by it negatively and then turn around and hand over the next month's membership fee to continue playing. I never said, once, that anyone presently playing did anything of this sort. I merely point out what I see as a trouble nexus in regards to this sort of thing happening in not only in this industry, but the market as a whole.
I don't seek to change anyone's mind. I merely pointed out my view, it's relation to the facts of the event, and hope that it will resonate in those that read it. The PoV you seem to hold to is the sort that serves no purpose than to attempt to keep revolutions (of any sort or scale) from ever happening. "You can't do X. Get used to it."
All I can say to that is...prove it.
Yes, I have anger issues. They taste like chocolate bunnies.
Comments
You dont have to lie to prospective players? then why do you (not you personally, in general). Im definately, certainly, 100% sure i dont want some of you guys to come back to the game. Its hard to counter SWG's terrible reputation, but im trying, because the only reason its there is because its being wrongly perpetuated by people like you. People do complain about the game on the forums, they're bound to, but not as much as they used to and a large percentage is happy enough to keep playing the game and enjoying it.
So for all the people like you: please stop trying to turn our valid point of "get over it" on us, it doesnt work. And we won - swg is not close to shutting down, and when it does, the time between the release of the NGE and it's end will be be an obvious indicator that it shutdown because of age and fast moving technology, like any other game that needs to be ended after too long.
as far as i am concerned, i have not seen a single lie comming from the vetson the other hand ive seen plenty from current players (most of who have never played pre-Cu/NGE)and from SOE.
and as for a few posts above me,
i would probably pay an SOE game if they payed me (at leat untill i get my money back for the box of my useless CD) and yes i call it useless because the CD installation files says that there are 32 professions, therefore the service i payed for is not the service available. (P.S. so does the instruction manual)
You dont have to lie to prospective players? then why do you (not you personally, in general). Im definately, certainly, 100% sure i dont want some of you guys to come back to the game. Its hard to counter SWG's terrible reputation, but im trying, because the only reason its there is because its being wrongly perpetuated by people like you. People do complain about the game on the forums, they're bound to, but not as much as they used to and a large percentage is happy enough to keep playing the game and enjoying it.
So for all the people like you: please stop trying to turn our valid point of "get over it" on us, it doesnt work. And we won - swg is not close to shutting down, and when it does, the time between the release of the NGE and it's end will be be an obvious indicator that it shutdown because of age and fast moving technology, like any other game that needs to be ended after too long.
as far as i am concerned, i have not seen a single lie comming from the vetson the other hand ive seen plenty from current players (most of who have never played pre-Cu/NGE)and from SOE.
and as for a few posts above me,
i would probably pay an SOE game if they payed me (at leat untill i get my money back for the box of my useless CD) and yes i call it useless because the CD installation files says that there are 32 professions, therefore the service i payed for is not the service available. (P.S. so does the instruction manual)
Checkout the general discussion forums, fortunately, most recently, people like me, badgesmaker, obraik and Jenus have been there to respond to prospective players politely and helpfully before people like iwantmyswg struts in and starts pulling his "facts" (aka lies) out. But a couple of weeks ago this was happening alot and its still does. And what lies have you seen from current players?
Making positive spin for the NGE to prospective players is cynical and immoral, IMHO. And it won't work in the end. Nor is it going to stave off cancellation.
Lets not get stupid here i mean i can think of worse jobs than playing a shit game all day and being paid. I mean if they paid me like £50 a hour i'd do it lol.
While the NGE may not have been built on the backs of child labor, it WAS built out of ill gotten funds stolen from the vet players, who were misled into thinking that the CU game was going to remain. That is immoral.
QFT
LOL, you know what is more funny than that!
Right now you have 2 games
Pre-CU/NGE and NGE
The vets played Pre-CU and have no idea what the hell is going on in NGE ( and if they do they do not belong here because they caved in to the "fight the power" and played NGE)
And Non-vets who play the NGE, these are the new players or the ones who did not care about the change and stayed in the game anyway.
Neither of these SWG eras are alike. I played them both. They are like 2 different games.
Soooooooo, this is what I do not get. SWG is still alive and kicking and still makes money (shocking but true !!!) New players start playing the NGE and have no clue about anything before NGE. The vets that stuck it out are still there ( there are plenty of them still there trust me) and they have thier take on the NGE.
So you wonder into the SWG forums, where NGE players are trying to help NGE players and boost "thier" game back up. Vets do not fall into the "thier" catagory anymore we all quit a long time ago, I don't think we really have a right to call something we no longer play "ours". So back to the problem at hand, what do these NGE players get for trying to give an honest opinion the current state of the game. A blast of shit from disgruntled vets who DON'T EVEN PLAY NGE!!! What is the purpose of this? Let these new guys enjoy a game they are paying for.
I will spin it another way. Reverse it, what would happen if NGE was the start of it all and it got changed to a Pre-CU in the end. All you vets would be there playing and all these NGE guys would be in here crying after years, trying to ruin your experience in a game your playing. It isn't very cool of people to do this.
Your real beef is with SOE, don't bash these new guys for trying to enjoy star wars. I see vets all the time end a post with this quote "to each their own", but none of you live by it. Go picket SOE headquarters if you like. Just stop the non-sense with the new players. We wonder why we are called insane or crazy. You ever stop to look at some of the crap the vets actually post and say.....
We do it to ourselves.
on a side note, I am surprised this thread only has 9 pages, that is kinda light for a topic like this?
QFT
LOL, you know what is more funny than that!
Right now you have 2 games
Pre-CU/NGE and NGE
The vets played Pre-CU and have no idea what the hell is going on in NGE ( and if they do they do not belong here because they caved in to the "fight the power" and played NGE)
And Non-vets who play the NGE, these are the new players or the ones who did not care about the change and stayed in the game anyway.
Neither of these SWG eras are alike. I played them both. They are like 2 different games.
Soooooooo, this is what I do not get. SWG is still alive and kicking and still makes money (shocking but true !!!) New players start playing the NGE and have no clue about anything before NGE. The vets that stuck it out are still there ( there are plenty of them still there trust me) and they have thier take on the NGE.
So you wonder into the SWG forums, where NGE players are trying to help NGE players and boost "thier" game back up. Vets do not fall into the "thier" catagory anymore we all quit a long time ago, I don't think we really have a right to call something we no longer play "ours". So back to the problem at hand, what do these NGE players get for trying to give an honest opinion the current state of the game. A blast of shit from disgruntled vets who DON'T EVEN PLAY NGE!!! What is the purpose of this? Let these new guys enjoy a game they are paying for.
I will spin it another way. Reverse it, what would happen if NGE was the start of it all and it got changed to a Pre-CU in the end. All you vets would be there playing and all these NGE guys would be in here crying after years, trying to ruin your experience in a game your playing. It isn't very cool of people to do this.
Your real beef is with SOE, don't bash these new guys for trying to enjoy star wars. I see vets all the time end a post with this quote "to each their own", but none of you live by it. Go picket SOE headquarters if you like. Just stop the non-sense with the new players. We wonder why we are called insane or crazy. You ever stop to look at some of the crap the vets actually post and say.....
We do it to ourselves.
Well, the current players are just as guilty of bashing, flaming and so on as much as the worst are here. Actually the discussions here have been very civil and mature lately, except for the few on both sides that seemingly have self control problems.
It's not all the vets fault. I don't come here to flame anyone. I come to discuss the old game and discourage any lies that are being told by some of the extremely rabid fans of the game.
I completely understand what your saying, the point to my post was, the vets want something done, or the lack there of and SOE to pay for it's mistakes. That is fine, I get it, I understand.
The NGE players should seriously just stick to talking about the NGE because that is all they know and stay out of vet discussions, on the same token, vets need to stay the hell out of the current SWG live forums and just let those guys play the game and enjoy it if that is what they are doing. Same for NGE players coming here to the vet forum trying to elaborate on the NGE and tell you guys to quit talking about it.
If the vets are sticking to Pre-CU topics ONLY, then it is fine.
Long story short NGE players should stick to what they know and play the NGE.
Vets should stick to what they know Pre-CU and trying to take down a technological empire like Sony.
If they actually did this.... there would be no fight.
Vets do not stick to SOE discussions and pre-cu topics only tho, they are still trying to cause damage by bashing NGE players, telling them it is a shitty game. Of course this only sets the NGE players on the defensive, which later turns into an offensive strike against the vets to leave them alone in the game they are playing.
NGE players now come into this forum trying to understand why we are the way we are, and bashing us as whiners, cryers, crazies, who just can't "get over it".
I hate to say it but it is a vicious cycle that will never end really.
Vets will never really win as SOE will keep SWG going forever as long as it turns a profit, which with the station pass it will continue to do so for quite some time to come.
NGE players will never win because the vets out number them 10 to 1. So it will always go round and round till the end of time.
Just like this little jewel here. It is a perfect example of what NOT to do.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/thread/166230
Brought to you by our good friend Salvaje from 2 post up. Intentionally trying to instigate a fight with an NGE player who is trying to do something worth while for the current players.
"ill gotten funds?" C'mon. So, first you're trying to tell SOE what it can and can't do with its service and now you're trying to tell it how to spend its revenues? If they wanted to, they could have just paid the csr's and the electric bill, then kept the rest and you wouldn't have had any say --if they did that, their revenues still wouldn't have been ill-gotten or immoral.
There was no investment, you weren't investing in changes -- you were buying for the moment. And anyone with those long terms subscription plans, I've already adressed that in post 39.
There was no investment, you weren't investing in changes -- you were buying for the moment. And anyone with those long terms subscription plans, I've already adressed that in post 39.
Many of us DID try to get our money back. I was denied. There were no refunds for yearly or quarterly subscriptions. There were many who attempted to get a refund for pre-paid time, but the answer was always no. Yes, I could have done a charge back because of their lack of discretion.
I chose to believe the devs that they were working to improve the NGE. I stayed beyond my year's subscription too. I was waiting on various issues to be addressed. In a way, I expected another revamp. I finally cancelled, for good, after the medic chapter. The effects of the profession made me finally realize that this was no longer my game or my virtual world. I knew the game was never going to get better.
To leave basic issues like combat speed and the associated lag, the lack of animations and over the top effects, and npc's that no longer behaved like they had any intelligence behind them is not something I am willing to pay for. I would NEVER accept a quality level this low in a real world product. I feel a lot better not being taken advantage of because I like Star Wars. Star Wars fans deserve a quality experience and the NGE is NOT it.
Akevv Ostone
No Longer SWG Free
There are simply much larger issues here then just about pre-CU.
I choose to speak out because I don't want to bury my head in the sand.
I have no idea what this means.
No, I don't believe you do. Which makes it all the more disappointing that you would make comments like the one you did.
I've been trying to make a point on these forums that it is not so much about a game but about a product, and the lack of control we as consumers have over the product we bought.
I choose to be vocal about SWG because of the example it set for the industry in general. To accept it is to condone these actions which will hurt us further as consumers.
Just imagine what a "successful" NGE would mean to MMO gamers. What MMO would be next? How can I have any confidence in buying another MMO? How can I be assured that the investment of time I put into a game isn't dismantled at a moments notice because the developer wanted to attract a different playerbase?
All I ask is for others to consider the repercussions of something like the NGE before telling others to "accept it".
No one bought a product, it was a service and your investment is an illusion -- there is no assurance to have just like there's no assurance that HBO won't cancel its tv shows and merge with Showtime. People crying over the end of the sopranos won't get it brought back, it was a business decision to end it just like the NGE was a business decision...all figure point to a bad one, but still SOE's to make and that you must accept.
Sooo... you're saying that if I take out a contract with a cleaning company to come clean my office (with a specific list attached as to what that entails) once a weak, it's ok if that company suddenly decides on its own that the toilets don't need cleaning, and that the walls need painting, even though the first was in the contract and the second was not?
Sorry, but that's not how it works. In the world I live in, there's a HUGE difference between reasonable changes (e.g. changing the cleaning fluids into something more enviromentally friendly) and uncalled for changes, that redefine the product or service.
Linna
Last I checked, the subscription was at your option -- you could cancel the service subscription if you didn't like the changes. Heck, they were even refunding the people who bought trials of obi-wan that took the initiative to say they didn't like the changes. By the way, did your SWG EULA and ToS have a specific list of deliverables? They're still delivering a game in the star wars universe where you can be a variety of characters and run missions or just sit and chat.
You are completely bypassing the fact that the description on the box and manual I bought says I bought an entirely different game. Yes, I cancelled the service, But I'm still angry that they changed the service I contracted for to something entirely different, and in such an offhanded and dismissive way.
If you want to play the game SWG has become, be my guest. But don't try and deny me the right to be angry about being banned for posting a simple compiled bug list, for seeing my guild scatter to the four winds, for being told 'daddy knows best' by a bunch of juvenile delinquents 10 years younger than me.
Once again, there's a big difference between reasonable changes and completely rewriting the core of the game. Oh, and before I forget: I am not a star wars fan (I couldn't care less) and I HATE running missions. I signed on for a sandbox, not for megaquest.
Linna
ICK, NO! I don't play this game and I'm not knocking your right to be angry -- I was disappointed and angry with the game from day 1, shipped relatively incomplete with broken classes du jour. I absolutely believe that vets should mourn the loss of the game but will adamantly counter those posters in denial who believe that they are/were entitled to their old game.
You're right though, I am bypassing the descripton of the game from years ago, but you do see my point, don't you? They have the right to do business (for better or for worse) as they choose and we as consumers have the choice to be patrons. Would there be this much heartache if the game was just flat out cancelled? This is the sticking point for so many I think. Vets would have closure if the game was just shut down but they see it up and running like an ex out on a date and it upsets them...still. The problem is, vets are only one side of the part and SOE, like an ex, moves on and goes out about business.
As for re-writing core mechanics of the game, I think it's within the company's right so long as it is delivering on the tagline of 'living in the star wars universe', which you still can do.
ps, I'm hoping not to repeat myself as a few people have responded to me ( ' :
Don't you think they should have said something about the upcoming NGE in the dev chats with players about the Trials of Obi Wan? Don't you think it's unethical to say to players things like: "you're going to love the new features in ToOW for Creature Handlers, make sure to pre-order today!" while they KNEW they were going to delete that profession and render the features useless right after the pre-order visa payments went through? This is just one example of many of the features that were advertised to players, sold to players, and then rendered useless by the NGE before people could use what they just paid for. Can you not see how this goes far beyond simply making modifications to an online game over time?
There are simply much larger issues here then just about pre-CU.
I choose to speak out because I don't want to bury my head in the sand.
I have no idea what this means.
No, I don't believe you do. Which makes it all the more disappointing that you would make comments like the one you did.
I've been trying to make a point on these forums that it is not so much about a game but about a product, and the lack of control we as consumers have over the product we bought.
I choose to be vocal about SWG because of the example it set for the industry in general. To accept it is to condone these actions which will hurt us further as consumers.
Just imagine what a "successful" NGE would mean to MMO gamers. What MMO would be next? How can I have any confidence in buying another MMO? How can I be assured that the investment of time I put into a game isn't dismantled at a moments notice because the developer wanted to attract a different playerbase?
All I ask is for others to consider the repercussions of something like the NGE before telling others to "accept it".
No one bought a product, it was a service and your investment is an illusion -- there is no assurance to have just like there's no assurance that HBO won't cancel its tv shows and merge with Showtime. People crying over the end of the sopranos won't get it brought back, it was a business decision to end it just like the NGE was a business decision...all figure point to a bad one, but still SOE's to make and that you must accept.
Sooo... you're saying that if I take out a contract with a cleaning company to come clean my office (with a specific list attached as to what that entails) once a weak, it's ok if that company suddenly decides on its own that the toilets don't need cleaning, and that the walls need painting, even though the first was in the contract and the second was not?
Sorry, but that's not how it works. In the world I live in, there's a HUGE difference between reasonable changes (e.g. changing the cleaning fluids into something more enviromentally friendly) and uncalled for changes, that redefine the product or service.
Linna
Last I checked, the subscription was at your option -- you could cancel the service subscription if you didn't like the changes. Heck, they were even refunding the people who bought trials of obi-wan that took the initiative to say they didn't like the changes. By the way, did your SWG EULA and ToS have a specific list of deliverables? They're still delivering a game in the star wars universe where you can be a variety of characters and run missions or just sit and chat.
In fact SOE did advertise specific features in the ToOW expansion, which it then removed from the game immediately after purchase. This was an example of advertising one service and providing another. SOE recognized their error, and refunded everyone with a legitimate grievance. Since SOE acknowledged this error, provided a refund, and since they've publically apologized for the NGE in its entirety and for the way it was delivered, you just seem to be in some kind of denial by trying to say that no wrong was done. Both sides of the issue agree that a wrong was done, an apology and a refund followed--albeit the apology took about 2 years in the making.
Also, SOE's legal dept. knows, I'm sure, as do the lawyers I associate with, that a EULA does not allow someone to market one service KNOWING that they will be delivering something else. Modifications are allowed for, yes, of course, but fraudulent marketting practices are not "protected" by a EULA, hence the massive refund campaign, fyi.
Hmmm, denial, it's interesting who can claim who is in denial.
You're muddying the waters though. Sure, both sides agree that a wrong was done, but I don't think they agree what that "wrong" really was. The right to alter that service is wholly separate from ToOW marketing and packaging shenanigans. Of course, ToOW package can be presented as bait and switch and, of course, it's wrong and not proctected by a EULA and, of course, that was the reason for the refund campaign because there is no way they could defend themselves.
BUT, don't mistake a refund/apology for the bait and switch shenanigans for a concession they didn't have the right to alter the game. And, please don't make the mistake of accepting Smedley's 2 year old apology as a genuine concession that they didn't have the right to change the game -- had the changes been successful and really pulled in the hundreds of thousands of $$ Smedley dreamed, then you wouldn't have had an apology. It was simply a strategic failure on their part and, at best, their final apology really reads as "We were wrong to think that dumping an existing subscriber base for a different demographic would yield more subscribers this time--I'm sorry our new plans failed to bring in those WoW revenues we dreamed of and also happened to cost us your patronage too, but we're gonna stick with this plan because to change back will just cost us more money. We learned there is some truth to that saying 'a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush', but if we were closer to that bush, we'd let go and pounce on those two. "
Ah ok, I just found this. Thank you for acknowledging the ToOW marketting fiasco. Like you, I do see these as seperate issues, to a degree.
I agree with you (I hope you were sitting down for that lol) that a game company has the right to modify it's game over time. My main disagreement was with the NGE "bait and switch" as its been called.
My second, but also major, concern was, just as you say, that the NGE was more than just an attempt to "upgrade" or "enhance" the game. It was an attempt to replace an existing subscriber base with a new and hopefully larger one. While that may not fit into the same category as a bait and switch, it's also not in the category of modifying combat functions, updating the HUD etc.. It showed a degree of indifference to players that I never expected to see, anywhere, and it really created an incredible mistrust between the gaming community and SOE.
Where things get muddy--not my doing by the way--is where SOE tried to pass off this population switch as a run of the mill MMO "upgrade" or "enhancement." I feel once again that this marketting campaign was dishonest. They weren't upgrading or enhancing the current game. They were tearing one game apart, and building another in its place. Calling that an upgrade or an enhancement just further undermines trust and credibility.
As for muddying things even further--again not my doing--marketting information in a game magazine said that it was the Trials of ObiWan that brought in the new iconic professions, and the more elegant combat. The NGE term was dropped entirely in this article, and the expansion and the NGE were portrayed as one and the same thing.
Again, clearly dishonest marketting an a number of levels. This kind of false advertising, misdirecting consumers is truly outrageous. If people are going to deal with SOE, they should be aware that this is who and what they're dealing with.
Believe me, if SOE canned all the people responsible for this kind of reprehensible garbage and began using a completely new advertising philosophy, I would be among the first to sing their praises. Until this happens though, I'm going to continue to say, "buyer beware."
I dont care to fight. Maybe 80% of the current SWG playerbase dont even knew Pre-CU SWG. So to them we are just talking rubbish.
At the same time, current players (e.g. Saaay and others) are concerned about some of the empty servers and general population issue. I sympathize with their concern. I just think it's the "bad tidings" that need to be addressed, rather than the messengers.
I'd have a drink with Saaay and Obraik any day in celebration if SOE fixes collision detection, the group waypoint bug, the instancing bug, the combat speed related lag, the spawning in objects bug and if the specials function and fire consistently. If they give weaponsmiths a reason to be in the game again and if they open up a classic server to follow up their apology to veteran players, I might even have 2 drinks lol.
If SOE doesn't address those very reasonable issues in my view, I'll just keep waiting for another company to offer a StarWars MMO.
The existing player base is so small compared to those of us who were there on 11/2/2005 when the NGE bombshell was dropped on us that they are literally irrelevant to the argument.
That is harsh, but true. We outnumber them 9-1. They should be offended actually that ALL of SOE's (lackluster) efforts are actually more geared towards trying (in vain) to get us back instead of placate them.
Of course they can't possibly get us back so long as the NGE remains. Which makes it even more laughable and futile.
To the people that dont think that the veterans like us have something to complain about.
Does anyone ever give this much time and energy into something they arent truely passionate about.
If all of us vets were living in the same town, we would probably have meetings(very similar to AA) where we would go every week and dicuss pre-Cu.
Plus everyone knows the best place to look for Tang is at a Pre-Cu meeting.
-Jive
Well, the problem goes even a little deeper too....
In some earlier posts I noticed a guy (I forget his name...he was the one debating with me earlier in the thread) gave a good layout of the actual problems that exist between our two "factions". What it doesn't mention is why some of the vets are so hostile to the NGE players. While I'm not one for hostility....I do grasp where this stems from and why its critical to understand it.
In the eyes of every vet (yes that includes me, even if I choose not to take it out on them) every NGE player is a deadly cigarette in the hands of a lung cancer ridden patient. They fuel the problem by supporting the company and its choices with money. Had everyone just left the game for dead Sony would have been left no choice but to immediately atone for its actions. It would have forced their hand in rethinking the way they do business on EVERY level. But that isn't the case. These players represent a continuation of a serious problem in the industry...one that actually threatens to destroy this genre. Bear with me on this....I'm dead serious.
These games require constant investment. If at any time the players feel that they can no longer trust ANY company to keep their investment safe for them...they will pull out of this market. On a console one can always load up an old character and relive the fun of it for awhile. But when an MMO company makes a decision such as NGE...it completely removes that possibility from the hands of the MMO gamer. They lose everything they have been investing in....and its worse than losing a save file from a console game because THOSE only require that one time investment. No....the Pre-CU players lost hundreds to thousands of dollars in time-paid in that game. People will simply stop playing MMO's if this sort of behavior is even allowed to be thought passable.
People like Sajavae (or however its spelled) are very mean, and very aggressive. They love not only that game, but the genre. To accept anything SOE does is to ensure the very death of this genre. That sort of business practice must be destroyed ABSOLUTELY. I would prefer they destroy it by simply replacing it with better practices....but I can easily see why people like Saj believe that this will never happen and would just rather see the whole company burn.
So its not just about the good and bad guys on either side of the fence addressing concerns. Its actually a problem which spreads across a very large area and sadly forces us into a state of either witch burning, or somber submission to inevitable and complete genre death. I'm just glad Blizzard has been so much better about it.
The part in yellow is something that your going to have to think long and hard about and just have to "grasp" in the terms of real life.
The vets have only one way of seeing things. They were wronged and want to see SOE pay for what has happened to them.
Problem with this is new players, NGE fanbois as they are called, were not wronged. They came in at a time after what the vets perceive as absolute SWG. They play a game from a point in time to the present. They like what they are playing because they never played before that time.
Vets are trying to stomp them out to further their goals to punish SOE. This is not fair to players of the current SWG. You hate them because they "feed a problem". To them SWG is not a problem so they do not understand your constant taunts and hatred. To them your just being a bunch of whiners and they want to be left alone to enjoy what they currently play.
From a vet standpoint, I understand how we all feel. It is not right nor fair to the NGE players who play and love SWG as it is now to be constantly bombarded with crap.
It is not so hard to believe that just because SOE has shadey business practices and did an in excusable thing several years ago, that players still want to play SWG. They are still there. They will remain there, no matter how hard everyone here fights to make them quit to kill off SWG for good. I hate to break it to everyone but that isn't going to happen. Anyone who thinks they are going to "kill" SWG for good is kidding themselves. Yeah we all cost them alot of money, so what. SWG remains. As long as it remains it means players are still enjoying it. Vets are being hypocritical to try and take that away from them just as SOE took away your game before the NGE. Vets are doing the same thing to NGE players that SOE did, the same thing which all vets hate.
How is it hypocritical to want a company to have to actually deal with the consequences of it's comportment and business practices?
If I attempt to defraud someone, I go to jail.
If I bait and switch someone, BBB climbs my tail.
If I lie to someone, I suffer consequences.
It could be said that it's hypocritical of anyone continuing to pay to play that title, that even though they know what that publisher did that they're going to support them anyway.
Do you support a politician after they've been shown to be a defrauder, liar(far too many times to look past), and a total turncoat in office?
Do you do business with a store or company that has been overwhelmingly shown to engage in long term fraud, bait and switch, and outright lying to the public THEN goes on to spin it like a Press Secretary and then, after YEARS of constant exposure, only give a small nod to the wrong it's done?
I don't. My ethics prevent me from doing so. Even if I'm not a customer of that business before the incident, if I found that Store X was guilty of those things, without any real defense or attempt at such showing the disdain they give those they've wronged...I'm definitely not doing business with them.
It's not like there's been an internal shake-up over this, not like anyone within the publishing house even so much as batted an eye on the matter. In short, they got away with it. They're STILL getting away with it because those that know of what they've done and how they obviously considered it internally are continuing to support that company financially, and just don't care. It didn't affect them, so it doesn't matter. Isn't it obvious how that sort of outlook totally beheads the accountability and path of consequences that is engendered into our economic system?
Now, how is it hypocritical for us...the angry vets...to want our economic system to provide the consequence said practices are supposed to provide.
It's not about SWG so much as an overall derailment of how we, the consumer base, should be able to reach consensus about the violation of trust and the cold disconcern of a company and support the path of consequences and accountability as a consumer-base that won't be mistreated in such a way. Unless there's a consensus within us, that player-base, then just like the ever-present danger in politics a company can consider us nothing more than numbers on a graph that they can treat as they like because as soon as enough of us get anything, they're solvent and don't have to pretend to care.
It's not those playing after the NGE that I dislike. More to the point it's that because they ARE paying to play that title that the impact of discontent and the consequence for that company' s actions are all the more diluted and far less likely to actually amount to anything.
Call me old fashioned, but that's how I feel.
Yes, I have anger issues. They taste like chocolate bunnies.
You still do not get it.
The vets are not 100% of the consumer base of SWG. If they were SWG would not exist as it would have 0... Zero.... Notta... players. You are but a slice of a pie. Not everyone feels wronged, not everyone agrees with a vet's way of thinking, not everyone thinks SOE did anything wrong at all.
For those that feel this way, you are but 1 side of a coin. You cannot change the world.
Even if you think you somehow have some magic wand you can wave and bring down SOE and SWG, you cannot. Just because you may believe SOE is one way does not hold true for 100% of the populous. You will NEVER change the mind of everyone. If this was possible, we would not have murder, theft, rape, cheating, evil in the world today. If 100% of everyone all thought like you maybe you would have a point here. Fact of the matter is, there is prolly at least 10,000 people still playing SWG who think otherwise. So they disagree with you and choose to like a game for the way it is.
Your beef is with SOE as a company and it's business practices, it isn't with those who choose to play a game for what it is now and enjoy it.
If you can't understand that then yes it is hypocritical.
If you'd read-to-comprehend my post it says that it's not those that are playing the game now that I have issue with, but the idea of that lack of consumer unity in totale.
The overwhelming majority of the player-base, in total, were affected. Those of us, these angry vets, that DID leave were the majority. Far more than just "one side of the coin". Just because some didn't doesn't relegate those that did to any sort of minority as they out-number the current player-base of the game.
My problem isn't with the present players. It's with the apathy to the event. The willingness to overlook past transgression for the sake of personal fulfillment, without there having ever really been any substantial reckoning for said events, thus supporting the transgressor and diluting the impact of the consequences of their actions.
Somehow, I fail to see anywhere in my post that speaks of magic-like solutions or bringing down the corporation as a whole. I also see no place in that post where I attack the people as individuals. As to what I believe...I believe in objective facts. The points that were made above listing out the entirety of the event in question are observable, objective facts. This isn't a matter of "what I believe"...it's what was done.
In the face of the facts of the event, if you're going to call anyone "hypocritical" then it'd be those that were present for said event, saw the impact that it made, consoled those that were effected by it negatively and then turn around and hand over the next month's membership fee to continue playing. I never said, once, that anyone presently playing did anything of this sort. I merely point out what I see as a trouble nexus in regards to this sort of thing happening in not only in this industry, but the market as a whole.
I don't seek to change anyone's mind. I merely pointed out my view, it's relation to the facts of the event, and hope that it will resonate in those that read it. The PoV you seem to hold to is the sort that serves no purpose than to attempt to keep revolutions (of any sort or scale) from ever happening. "You can't do X. Get used to it."
All I can say to that is...prove it.
Yes, I have anger issues. They taste like chocolate bunnies.