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A Thought About Progression In MMO's.
War_Eagle
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 472
I think maybe I've discovered one of the chinks in the MMO armor. A fault that it took Super Mario Galaxies to help me discover. 
I have been really getting into MMO's for quite some time but I've noticed a kind of reciprocal emotion that is occurring. The more I've gotten into MMO's, the less happy I am with my gaming hobby. As I've left behind some of the other types of games I used to play, I look back with a longing fondness for those times.
Then I bought Super Mario Galaxies and the light bulb lit up. I am having such a good time playing that game. And I think I know the whole story now.
It has to do with progression. It's pretty common knowledge that part of the pleasure of gaming is getting that reward system in your brain satisfied. It's part of the appeal to feel a kind of progression through a world. A sense of accomplishment, if you will. That is the reward. That and pretty colors that make you think of how beautiful fantasy worlds are, and how dull ours can be.
MMO's seem to have slowed down that progression to a crawl. What I find myself feeling is not so much of a sense of accomplishment but more a sense of mindless hope. Hope that somewhere around the corner will be a pretty thing or a great battle or a sweet looking new zone. But those things come WAY too slowly.
I know that it takes lots of time to make an MMO along with money and labor. I know that large companies have done all they can to snuff out the creativity of developers. I also know that there are just limitations to what hardware at this time can do. But to me those have become lame excuses for putting out sorry games.
I think it's the reason that WoW is so successful (or one of the reasons at least). WoW (at least in the beginning) gives you that sense of progressing and accomplishment. Later on it becomes a bore just like the rest, but at least in the beginning they have it going on. This shows that it is at least possible.
But other games are so freaking slow. And the rewards you get don't warrant the effort.
Super Mario Galaxies seems to move along at a brisk and rewarding pace. It offers excitement and purpose. And it reminds me of why I got into gaming in the first place.
Why can't the MMO developers figure this out? Do you guys agree?
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Actually I disagree is some way.
The idea of MMORPG has a few focus, and the first is always your character's progression (in level or in skill). This means more skills are available when you are high level. Now many can debate which system to implement for such progression to take place, but the goal is the same - build up a character of your choice.
Now, the second part is the progression you've mentioned - game progression. Even though most MMO focus on being a game first, it actually exist as a virtual world in some form. And this progression is build into the character in some form or other (through areas filled certain level mobs/quests for players to progress their character.)
The sense of accomplishment is on the character progression more than on the world progression. This can be improve on, but mostly the form states the same.
So there are actually difference between the focus of progression of a game like Mario Galaxy and MMORPGs.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
I agree that the pace of a MMO can be slow and sometimes frustrating. The problem is that when you play an MMO if you get to a so called end game point in less than a month, even tho in some game apperently you can, there would be no reason to continue to subscribe. So MMOs can only move so fast otherwise the devs couldn't keep up with new content. Hopefully we will se more MMOs that have sustainable game play.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
You are 100% correct sir.
Developers intentionally load MMOs with mass amounts of sub-subpar content to try and get SUBSCRIBERS(not just players) to play longer.
Super Mario Galaxies operates in the safety net of knowing that it doesn't matter if people play their game for a month and stop, because it's mario, it's nintendo wii, and it's good, they will sell PLENTY of copies to make a lot of money.
If everybody plays an MMO for a month and stops then developers are actually getting fucked royally. It has to take a lot of people a lot of time so they can make their money back and start making profits.
Slowing progression to a crawl is a guarantee that some people will play your game a long time.
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PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
I appreciate your post, but I'm talking more about the pace of progression. It seems that MMO's have slowed progression in the games down to such a turtle's pace.
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I appreciate your post, but I'm talking more about the pace of progression. It seems that MMO's have slowed progression in the games down to such a turtle's pace.
The focus on the progression (in this case, character vs world) has everything to do with the pace of the progression.When the focus is on character rather than the world, then the pace would be slow (Like most RPG, the pace of progression is slow, some more than other. MMORPG is no different). When the focus is on the world rather than character (Action, advanture, side-scroller, etc...), the pace would be faster.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
There really is a simple exercise to find how to make your game better.
First assume that everybody in your game is max level. Is there anything for them to do that will keep them occupied for months? If not, your game sucks.
Then you ask yourself, "If my end game is really that good, why can't people reach it in a week, or even a couple of days, and still be loyal and happy subscribers?"
What we're seeing is that more and more MMOs are answering "Well... it really isn't that good, but we are going to make it take a long time to reach the endgame and then eventually release expansion packs to raise the level cap and add in new items so people who were at the end game now have to grind more to get there. Because we honestly can't even convince ourselves that our game is good enough to keep subscribers for a few months without grinding."
When you know your "end game" is so freakin sweet, then nothing is stopping you from making it take even minutes to reach.
My point was, making a fun end game is hard, making progression slow is not.
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PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
In your post it sounds more like a difference in play-style.
As game design goes, MMORPG shouldn't be focus on being a game, because it isn't a game. A RPG, even though it is a game, it focus on a story and let the player be the main character(s) in the story. The whole "game" is based on the character's progression throughout the story. Every great RPG have a great story behind it. MMORPG is just the same idea, but doing it on a greater level. In doing so, they expand the system too much, and yet not giving it enough story to progress through. In essence, developer created a world, and treat the world as a game (and fill it with tuned down all aspects, including story, character progression, contents, etc...). The slow pace of progression was design to fit the idea of MMO as virtual "worlds", yet with it being treated as "games", the pace of progression become something hated by many.
As of now, the MMORPG genre has turned from the RPG design and focus on being just a game to appeal to the mass. This made the design of progression somewhat weird for a "game". Because the system it was going for is a evolving world.
The content issues you are focus on is more or less the by-product of wanting the game world to evolve, yet doing a half-ass job on it. (Hence the cry for less grinding on everything...). When MMORPG ditch the idea that they need to appeal to the mass, and return to its roots (RPG with a evolving world, design as such, and implement as such), the game would feel much easier to play, and the slow pace of progression would not be an issue.
If you are talking about the time of grinding in MMO, then your topic is not the right way to phrase it. Since progression in MMO is somewhat different than other games.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
@Forcan: In UO there was a story with characters progression through it, yet there was no inordinate amount of monster bashing or questing to get up to the next level. You selected a task for yourself, you began performing it poorly at first, and gradually got better.
A critical aspect of the game is that you could actually beat somebody else in PvP with lower skill points than them.
Progression is good and a necessary part of an RPG, but making a beginning player worthless in a high level group is just stupid game design that drives players apart. Add to that the fact that developers love to have slow progression times, and you end up with a community that is split up into a bunch of different pieces based on level, and all they want to do is get to the next level.
If you have players only slightly weaker than other players, everybody can participate somehow in both PvP and PvE, but when you go it WoW style, being good at something can mean hundreds of hours of non-fun stuff.
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PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
Some games put different things at the "end" for players. WoW gave the players BG, Arena, and for PvE'ers - Instance/dungeon raids. Other MMO focus on PvP only, other focus on PvE.
The problem is that they are treating MMO worlds as games. Worlds doesn't just end, they evolve as characters progress. So when developers focus on making a game, they will have a mentality which design systems that doesn't fit with an evolving world. But if developers focus on building such world, then the content will fit the design, which will in turn be good and fun.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
I haven't played Guild Wars, but it apparently is mostly 'Endgame' with some token leveling. They make money from expansions, not monthly fees, so they don't need to milk you for time. It is second behind WoW in subscribers, from what I hear. Being second, nobody bashes it on these boards :-)
This is a flaw in the current character design which I am trying to figure out ways to combat. (I focus on using skill-based systems that I'm continue to revise daily to see if I can design a system which players, veterans or beginners, can play together without one be overpower and other being worthless.)
A basic idea is that characters aren't worthless in beginning, just not as refine in skills.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Good point Kulthos.
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PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
I think a way to make a games progression seem faster without it actually going faster is more of the way the game is made, the way the mobs move, if a Dev can make a game seem faster by making the mobs move more in a realistic manner than just in a 5 foot area. MMO's now the mobs don't do much unless you aggro them. I think if animals went out on hunts, and moved to different areas during certain times of the year and some that go into hybernation, soldiers patrolled...etc That and change of weather conditions...not just areas with snow and rain, but during different parts of the year rain will stop and sun will come out, in higher climates it will snow, sometimes blizzards. Also have the weather effect your character and mobs, if your on an icy lake you'll slip and slide without special shoes, you'll get cold and need to bundle up and in hot areas you'll want to wear less and it will effect your character.
Another thing with mobs, I don't think they should just spawn in that area. With a more realistic eco system where mobs have a chance to become extinct would be pretty cool.
A lot that I think that makes a game seem slow is that you're not really hunting. Some mobs might run from you, others might flank you, or call for help, or run toward other mobs. This would make you use different tactics other than just standing there and smashing buttons. Better AI and more realistic weather conditions would make the game seem faster because you'd feel the game is more realistic and it would change the overall flow of the game.
With all this in mind I think their can be different kinds of quests too. Take quests that you have in good single player FPS' like Half-life, Hitman, Thief and so fourth and put them in an MMO. Now also I'd like to see a change in the way people play these games, meaning there would have to be a change in death. In most online FPS games people just come back to life and there is no real adverse effects, so what do they do, they run and jump around using more quick reflex skill then using actual strategy. Also making it more difficult to run, jump and fire, for example lowering your chance to hit by a lot. If I in real life took a gun and ran and jumped around like I see a lot of people do in a game I'd die a quick death. Making the game work more realistically will make people use their brains to think of strategy and also use skill instead of just quick reflex skill.
I know maybe processing power and bandwith speeds may not be up to all of the ideas I listed but devs usually make games for the future of processing power and broadband trends.
I agree that the pace is far too slow. Least in games like UO and GW you could move fast if you wanted to reach your max lvls. Then take the time to enjoy the game world and community activities. MMORPGs are forgetting that people should be able to interact more at any lvl. Instead we are getting no socialization between lower/newer players and the vet players.
But the grind and slow progression is how they keep you in the game. Till devs figure out how to make a game fun and long lasting without the grind...we will simply hafta put up with it.
I don't think that there is no interaction between lower and higher level players. It all depends on the game really. For instance, in a game like WoW, I can easily see how that could happen. But in most other games, I see lots of higher levels helping lower ones. Usually these are in the less popular games, which is ironic. The people in the less popular games are usually the nicest, while people in games like WoW are stereotyped to be jerks. Anyways, that's just how I see it.
I agree, but you will get a lot of idiots telling you that people who want games like that are complete wussies.
Which is ironic for many reasons I don't feel like stating.
I'm with you bub on raiding being used not only as an excuse for content, but also as an excuse to exclude normal players from the best rewards and usually the only real equipment progression the game has to offer at the high end.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I find that progression through the use of PvE raiding as something stupid because it limited an evolving world from ever evolving. Why? because Guild A killed a Named Boss in a raid, then Guild B kills the SAME Boss in a raid and so on and so forth.
Not only that, but the same guild, the same group of players, farm the Named Boss over and over... (oh yeh, you killed him yesterday, and somehow he came back alive again and again without getting smarter at changing strategy against the same damn group going against him... ).
I know the reason behind such design is becase this way everyone can experience the same "epic raid" on the same Boss. But this throws all immersion and evolving world out the window. As progression goes, this system is by far the worth I can think of for a "game" that is suppose to be an evolving world for players.
If PvE raids are based on certain action or event being unlocked by one group, and people can go help out, it would give the true "epic" feel to the encounter. As for those who missed it, better luck next time. Maybe someone will unlock a different raid when they are on and they can join it. At least that's my idea on PvE raid...
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)