Because : * EQ2 Launch was crap * EQ2 has gone through a number of its own 'CU' cycles * EQ2 has gone through a number of its own 'NGE' cycles * EQ2 original design with only two starting cities was flawed. Folks want to think their place in the world is special. That is one reason why EQ, DAoC, and WoW succeeded big time. * EQ2 expansions, over the first two years, really did not 'expand' the game for everyone. Only the most recent ones have opened new starting areas. * And most importantly, EQ2 launched with NO Open Beta period and a very limited (to truly rabid Fan-Boyz and Fan-Galz) Closed Beta. They got their ass kicked by WoW and justly so. Because of the constant re-design of the game vision, they continue to get their asses stomped. Too bad. I played EQ2 first before WoW. Wanted it to be great. It turned out to be a laggy, under-tested, underdeveloped mess.
EQ2 has had a single combat revamp in which all classes were reworked and a couple mechanics were changed (primarily Spell/CA damage was changes so it depended on Str/Int rather then melee/casting skills). The overall impact is far less then the constant piecemeal “class reviews” WoW has undergone since it launched.
Since it launched EQ2 has added 30 new levels, 3 new starting areas and new areas for players of all levels that have enough to do that you can go all the way to max level without leaving them. How does this equate with “not adding content for everyone”?
Originally posted by khuzadYou are correct... EQ2 does require a beefier system to play it... although... you can turn down the graphics and run it on lower spec'ed systems... But with hardware getting cheaper all the time... and if you are computer savvy... you could build a pc that would run EQ2 nicely for around $600 - $700... Peace
This is exactly why (aside from the fact that WoW was far more engaging and polished at launch than EQ2, and involved a much more widely recognized IP).
Most people aren't "computer savvy." They don't want to learn how to build a PC. They don't want to spend $600-700 doing it. Why would they do that when they can buy an XBOX360 for $300 and sit on their couch playing games on the big-ass TV that they just spent 3 grand on?
If they're going to play a PC game, they're only going to do it if it will work on the PC they happen to have, whatever that happens to be. Most people are scared to death to even unplug their PCs, let alone open up the case.
This is why Call of Duty 4 sold 100K copies for the PC, and over a million for XBOX.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
People want to play with millions of other people, thats why WoW keep going on about their user base. No-one wants to play a game that is dead, you feel alone and bored.
I find that i usually log off around the time, all my friends log off, usually because the social aspect of an MMO disapears without friends.
People want to play with millions of other people, thats why WoW keep going on about their user base. No-one wants to play a game that is dead, you feel alone and bored. I find that i usually log off around the time, all my friends log off, usually because the social aspect of an MMO disapears without friends.
And this here is exactly why I doubt any MMO comes close to touching their numbers for some time. The genre thrives on the social aspect of it....and the lack of player numbers makes competing a difficult task. It doesn't help that the MMO's of today still think they can copy that games design and somehow win its players.
Honestly...if a WoW player wanted to play a game similar to WoW, they'd just stick to WoW and reap the benefits of having its playerbase to both support the social nature of it AND support the dev team working on it.
Ok, so this thread prompted me to go try the EQ2 trial. I played it for a few hours at launch at my cousins, but not long enough to really see the game (or even remember what that experience was really like). Here are my thoughts:
* Not that different from any other game (go figure) * Harder than WoW - need to group to really enjoy it * Nobody else on
I really liked a lot of it, the world design is pretty interesting, I like my character (a ranger Fae), the collection of ingredients is decent (any game with ok or better crafting gets bonus points from me). But the game is really brought down a lot from the forced grouping - I had a blast when I ran a dungeon with another player. Unfortunately, the next time I played no one was near me to run the next set of quests.
How do you play a game that requires other players when nobody else plays!??!?
I doubt my trial account will be changing into a paid account. Hate on item shop games all you want, but at least in DOMO I can go to any boss or dungeon I want to work on, click on 4 or 5 nearby players, and have a team ready to go and have fun. Having more fun in that game than I have had in my 10 hours so far of EQ2. Because of population alone. The combat in eq2 seems really deep and enjoyable, the environments are some of the prettiest that will run on my computer (and it's easy to tweak the settings to make it run a bit smoother), and the crafting >>>> DOMO (at least you have to move from spot to spot when collecting ingredients).
But it's a dead game. RIP. They need to do something to get more players, and it looks like they aren't doing anything. Plus, there is so much hatred for SOE, the only way I see EQ2 climbing out of the pit is if it was sold to another company that people liked. (Hmm, what company do people like. Uh, Blizzard is the only one coming to mind... And people hate Blizzard as well). They would probably have to change the name too. And hide the fact that it used to be everquest. And do a TON of advertising.
The attack style and feedback you get from executing attacks and fighting your enemies needs to be satisyfing and fun. Whether you solo or group, your role and executing your role should be gratifying. You can have a million miles of virtual real estate but none of it will be worth exploring if playing your character isn't fun.
-Looking forward to the next level/skill/gear upgrade
The game has to make you chomp at the bit to get to the next level or get a new spell that'll be fun to use and make your character more powerful. Having to wait a few levels to equip a powerful sword makes it all that more satisfying when you get there.
-A steady rate of solo advancement, at just the right speed
Everybody likes to level up and staying in one level too long gets tiresome. People also like to play what feels like a competent character that can take care of itself and defeat an equivalent monster. Everquest was notorious for mishandling this one.
-Classes that complement each other in groups
In WoW my melee characters like to group with shaman just for Windfury totem. My casters like the druid form that increases spell crit rate. My shaman loves paladins who use Seal of Wisdom. I feel like grouping to take on elites and bosses enhances my character rather than making me feel weak and underpowered.
I think EQ2 needs a major overhaul to the combat system but it's probably too late. Maybe SOE will get it right next time.
What makes a MMO/RPG game fun is: -The satisfaction of playing your chosen class The attack style and feedback you get from executing attacks and fighting your enemies needs to be satisyfing and fun. Whether you solo or group, your role and executing your role should be gratifying. You can have a million miles of virtual real estate but none of it will be worth exploring if playing your character isn't fun. -Looking forward to the next level/skill/gear upgrade The game has to make you chomp at the bit to get to the next level or get a new spell that'll be fun to use and make your character more powerful. Having to wait a few levels to equip a powerful sword makes it all that more satisfying when you get there. -A steady rate of solo advancement, at just the right speed Everybody likes to level up and staying in one level too long gets tiresome. People also like to play what feels like a competent character that can take care of itself and defeat an equivalent monster. Everquest was notorious for mishandling this one. -Classes that complement each other in groups In WoW my melee characters like to group with shaman just for Windfury totem. My casters like the druid form that increases spell crit rate. My shaman loves paladins who use Seal of Wisdom. I feel like grouping to take on elites and bosses enhances my character rather than making me feel weak and underpowered. I think EQ2 needs a major overhaul to the combat system but it's probably too late. Maybe SOE will get it right next time.
WOW... I dont mean WOW like World of Warcraft
You just stated all the reasons that I keep coming back to EQ2...
-The satisfaction of playing your chosen class
I like to play hybrid classes or to play a class in a way that maybe one wouldn't normally play... Like taking a tanky type class and through AA's ( like WOW's Talents ) playing them as a DPS class... or taking a cleric type class and through AA's playing them as a melee class... and so on...
-Looking forward to the next level/skill/gear upgrade
There is such an enormous selection of equipment... whether you quest for it... or its dropped off a NPC... or you make it yourself... There is always a new skill or skills waiting at your next level... and there is always someplace new you could hunt that you were just a bit to low for... and one of the things I like best is not having to worry about looking just like the next guy... any race can play any class... and there isnt just one or two BEST pieces of armor for a particular class... there are many many choices...
-A steady rate of solo advancement, at just the right speed
You can solo to 80 if you choose... I play solo about 90% of the time... Sometimes I actually disable my combat experience so that I do not miss out on some quest or areas I have never been to... Or I can always group up in a pick up group or with guildies and go take out some names that are a little tough for me to solo... or just wait a few levels and try to take them on myself...
-Classes that complement each other in groups
This is one of the best things in EQ2... there are 24 different classes... each of them bring something good to a group... some classes work better with others but any combo is a blast... learning ways to compliment each other and make each other more lethal... When you need a healer... there are 6 different kinds to choose from... need a tank?? You could go with the standard plate guys... or get a leather wearing monk to come be your front man... sure you have to adjust and learn how to work with each other... but thats what MMO's are about...
Content isn't king, a smooth game experience in all aspects is king. All aspects including content.
Its not the be all end all, its not the king for cult success but its virtually impossible to have mass appeal without it.
End of Story.
Agreed, goes hand in hand with low system requirements and a simple learning curve. WoW nailed it all, the ability for "some guy" who's never even played a PC game other than Whack a Bush flash games on myspace and pick it up and go. Even with that hand me down laptop, even with no idea of complex RPG rule systems, and he's not CTD'ing every 20 minutes or having to call and wait for GMs nonstop.
Yes because meost other MMO's have PvE too including EQ2
I see just because you have many post on the forum, it doesn't sort these kind of replies away.
Yes, EQ2 is PvE only(mostly, with very inbalanced PvP). The reason why WoW > EQ2 sub-wise, is bcuz WoW has a very balanced Players VS Player environment(AKA PvP).
So no matter how much content you add to a game, if you don't have a basis for PvP, you will leave a huge playerbase behind.
PVP is better in EQ2..
No the reason WoW has more subs is because Blizzard big fanbase.. They are loyal as hell also.. They won't even try another MMO besides WoW unless it's made by Blizzard, lol.
Also WoW vs most MMO the devs doesn't add lot of content..lol
No the reason WoW has more subs is because Blizzard big fanbase.. They are loyal as hell also.. They won't even try another MMO besides WoW unless it's made by Blizzard, lol.
Also WoW vs most MMO the devs doesn't add lot of content..lol
If you think 10 million people bought WoW because they really like Blizzard, I think you're insane. I'd be willing to bet 6 million of those people at least have no clue who the hell Blizzard is other than a label on the box they bought.
Yes because meost other MMO's have PvE too including EQ2
I see just because you have many post on the forum, it doesn't sort these kind of replies away.
Yes, EQ2 is PvE only(mostly, with very inbalanced PvP). The reason why WoW > EQ2 sub-wise, is bcuz WoW has a very balanced Players VS Player environment(AKA PvP).
So no matter how much content you add to a game, if you don't have a basis for PvP, you will leave a huge playerbase behind.
PVP is better in EQ2..
No the reason WoW has more subs is because Blizzard big fanbase.. They are loyal as hell also.. They won't even try another MMO besides WoW unless it's made by Blizzard, lol.
Also WoW vs most MMO the devs doesn't add lot of content..lol
I naturally disagree with this.....because in no way has Blizzard made 10 Million Die Hards pre-WoW. But for the sake of arguement......
If so, why is it do you think that their fans are so loyal? I'll answer for you. Because they are loyal to their fans. Blizzard goes above and beyond the call of duty to make sure they do the best they can for their players. Every other company goes only as far as they have to in order to bleed the walking wallet. I'm not saying there aren't great MMO's out there, there are plenty good ones that do a great job. IN fact, the guys behind City of Heros will always have my respect because they really did a great job with that game. THey also did something good for the production community by releasing their engine public to give fledgling workers something to start with and get that experience under their belt.
For all of my personal issues with WoW....I cannot say one ill thing of Blizzard as a company. They are one of the few last companies that actually care two bits about its consumer.
Originally posted by lomiller EQ2 has had a single combat revamp in which all classes were reworked and a couple mechanics were changed (primarily Spell/CA damage was changes so it depended on Str/Int rather then melee/casting skills). The overall impact is far less then the constant piecemeal “class reviews” WoW has undergone since it launched.
There is a HUGE difference between taking over a year to individually enhance and balance 9 classes and the complete overhaul of 24 classes/combat system AND at the same time beta test the first expansion all in a couple of months. Comparing the two is ludicrous. EQ2s combat revamp was sweeping and filled with just as many overhauls, nerfs and ignoring problems as it was buffs and enhancements. It wasn't a positive experience for many players and the net result of the revamp was almost zero. Some classes got better, some worse and some still remained largely useless. All the revamp did was shuffle around the problems with classes and upset a lot of players.
Honestly the concept of a company trying to balance 24 classes in a handful of weeks is a combination of stupidity, desperation and ego on many levels that only SOE can achieve.
(Not in response to lomiller)
Ignoring all the reasons that make WoW a success, EQ2 should be a run away success also just based on how much turnover WoW has, the overall growth of the MMO market and EQ2 ridding in the number 2 spot for fantasy games. The entire market has exploded population wise and all that EQ2 does is shrink which says more about the gameplay than any criticisms of WoW can do. The success of Guild wars, LOTRO easily in the hundreds of thousands, the box sales of Vanguard over 200k which proves that the market was there for people looking for games other than WoW. There are many other niche games that have also increased subs or held their own in the face of WoW. Beta test applications for Warhammer and Conan easily numbering into the hundreds of thousands each show that people are still looking in large numbers.
EQ2 isn't doing better simply because of EQ2. It isn't because of any other reason that puts blame somewhere else other than square of the feet of EQ2s gameplay or the decisions the SOE made in handling their customers. If the gameplay was so amazing or engrossing it would have attracted hordes of players instead of losing playerbase.
People leaving WoW are just leaving...they aren't going to another MMO, because they never had a previous MMO. They played it, they had fun, they're done now.
People leaving WoW are just leaving...they aren't going to another MMO, because they never had a previous MMO. They played it, they had fun, they're done now.
That logic is pretty silly. Using that chain of thought...NO other MMO would have any players because when people left UO or EQ they would simply have quit the genre altogether.
If people liked WoW, you can bet they now have their eye on the genre. I would expect many of them hear about other MMO's from guildmates and group members while playing WoW. It would be ignorant to suggest they aren't looking into it.
People leaving WoW are just leaving...they aren't going to another MMO, because they never had a previous MMO. They played it, they had fun, they're done now.
That logic is pretty silly. Using that chain of thought...NO other MMO would have any players because when people left UO or EQ they would simply have quit the genre altogether.
If people liked WoW, you can bet they now have their eye on the genre. I would expect many of them hear about other MMO's from guildmates and group members while playing WoW. It would be ignorant to suggest they aren't looking into it.
Actually, no...that kind of logic is supported by all the numbers. The FACT is, WoW has it's numbers because it's drawn a HUGE number of non-traditional PC gamers or MMO'ers. What, 10 times Everquest at it's peak? You really think suddenly 9 million more people decided to play MMO's or do you think that WoW was mainstream enough, simple enough to install, play, and enjoy, that the other 9 million said "what the hell".
Those people didn't go find a new MMO, those people said "I have to go to work again" or "I have to pay attention to my girlfriend again" or simply "I have been spending far too much time on a VIDEO GAME" and they moved on.
MOST people in the world have no need for the next best MMO, because they don't play them...the extra 9 million people drawn into WoW were drawn there as a one time deal, IMO, and won't be back for the next, best, thing.
Actually, no...that kind of logic is supported by all the numbers. The FACT is, WoW has it's numbers because it's drawn a HUGE number of non-traditional PC gamers or MMO'ers. What, 10 times Everquest at it's peak? You really think suddenly 9 million more people decided to play MMO's or do you think that WoW was mainstream enough, simple enough to install, play, and enjoy, that the other 9 million said "what the hell".
Those people didn't go find a new MMO, those people said "I have to go to work again" or "I have to pay attention to my girlfriend again" or simply "I have been spending far too much time on a VIDEO GAME" and they moved on.
MOST people in the world have no need for the next best MMO, because they don't play them...the extra 9 million people drawn into WoW were drawn there as a one time deal, IMO, and won't be back for the next, best, thing.
Those issues you describe have been common for ALL MMO's over the years. MMO gamers are not all children, in fact a fat chunk of them are adults using the genre as a form of escapism from the grind of their real life. WoW didn't magically create a playerbase out of the working man, it magically gave OTHER working men a taste of the genre in a way that would welcome them into it. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but real life was never the resistance factor in the equation. The sheer time-dump old school MMOs required was. All the average man needed was an MMO he could fit into his schedual.
Now that the market has realized the financial potential of this so-called "Casual" market...you can bet they will appear to them. You can also bet this market share is going to notice it, because they will still want a world to escape into now that burnout is starting to set in.
MOST people in the world have no need for the next best MMO, because they don't play them...the extra 9 million people drawn into WoW were drawn there as a one time deal, IMO, and won't be back for the next, best, thing.
You're right, not a single one of those 9 million people will want to try a new MMO. Not one.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
MOST people in the world have no need for the next best MMO, because they don't play them...the extra 9 million people drawn into WoW were drawn there as a one time deal, IMO, and won't be back for the next, best, thing.
You're right, not a single one of those 9 million people will want to try a new MMO. Not one.
LOL! I'd say that as people leave WoW it's paved the way for the dozens of 100k sub MMOs out there, for sure. That said, it won't open the way for a giant million sub MMO by a long shot. MANY, not all, but MANY WoW players won't have ever played and won't ever play another MMO.
MOST people in the world have no need for the next best MMO, because they don't play them...the extra 9 million people drawn into WoW were drawn there as a one time deal, IMO, and won't be back for the next, best, thing.
You're right, not a single one of those 9 million people will want to try a new MMO. Not one.
LOL! I'd say that as people leave WoW it's paved the way for the dozens of 100k sub MMOs out there, for sure. That said, it won't open the way for a giant million sub MMO by a long shot. MANY, not all, but MANY WoW players won't have ever played and won't ever play another MMO.
sorry guy...fact.
Sure, many won't play another MMO.
But if "many" means "more people than have ever played any other MMO before WoW," that still leaves millions of people who WILL potentially look to next gen MMOs.
I will agree with you to an extent, and here's why. Not only have more people played WoW than any other MMO ever made, more people have QUIT playing WoW than have ever played any MMO ever made.
Apparently, the millions of people who QUIT playing WoW have not flooded the other existing MMOs, new or old. But that might just mean that they don't have the stomach for MMOs afterall. On the other hand, the millions of people who are sticking with WoW will eventually tire of it. Many of the younger players will mature, and possibly look for something with more depth.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Vincenz, my point was that WoW has most likely lost more subs than EQ2 will ever have. If a game like LOTRO can get a couple hundred thousand subs, Vanguard can sell over 220k boxes, Warhammer getting 500k beta application, so on and so on then there is a market of people looking to play a game that isn't WoW. If EQ2s content was so awesome then it shouldn't have any trouble easily getting more players than it has.
Saying that millions and millions of people have joined the MMO world through WoW and won't play other games is being a little obtuse. Unless you want to believe that all these new games are building subscriber bases of people who have never played WoW before?
Perhaps the truth is that if WoW was someones first game then most others games just don't measure up?
I'm still trying to figure out where you people get the factual numbers that indicate millions of people have quit WoW? Do you have these reports, where are the links to these factual documents? I have seen no indication that WoW has anywhere close to the millions of turnovers you talk about.
Even if that were remotely true, I see evidence all the time on the boards that people who don't like the current crop of games are "Waiting" for AoC and WAR. Seems to me that it's more logical that people would wait for future games than stop playing the genre cold turkey. I mean, WoW is still growing and not just by a little nor is it shrinking, which means people are enjoying this particular MMO and will likely try another.
You people keep spewing your arguments as facts with nothing to back them up, not even plausible conjecture. If these newbies liked WoW, which is most likely the case considering it's visible retention of players, how do you come to the conclusion that the majority of them will quit playing MMOs when they finish with WoW? Logic would dictate otherwise.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I agree that most people in WoW are most likely waiting for WoW or AoC which is the reason other MMOs are not bursting at the seams with drops offs from WoW.
I try to be clear that I am speculating when I say "most likely" before guessing how many people have played WoW. I can make that an educated guess based on how many people I have seen come and go in WoW guilds/social circles I've been in (and also how many seem to return). Furthermore since WoW has been on the top 5 best selling PC software every month since release I can only guess that they are selling far more copies over 3 years than they have retained. I try to be clear that I'm speculating, but even if blizzard retained 9 out of every ten players that have ever bought a copy that would still be over a million lost players. Blizzard would have to be near perfect to not have lost at least that many.
Comments
Most people aren't "computer savvy." They don't want to learn how to build a PC. They don't want to spend $600-700 doing it. Why would they do that when they can buy an XBOX360 for $300 and sit on their couch playing games on the big-ass TV that they just spent 3 grand on?
If they're going to play a PC game, they're only going to do it if it will work on the PC they happen to have, whatever that happens to be. Most people are scared to death to even unplug their PCs, let alone open up the case.
This is why Call of Duty 4 sold 100K copies for the PC, and over a million for XBOX.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
People want to play with millions of other people, thats why WoW keep going on about their user base. No-one wants to play a game that is dead, you feel alone and bored.
I find that i usually log off around the time, all my friends log off, usually because the social aspect of an MMO disapears without friends.
And this here is exactly why I doubt any MMO comes close to touching their numbers for some time. The genre thrives on the social aspect of it....and the lack of player numbers makes competing a difficult task. It doesn't help that the MMO's of today still think they can copy that games design and somehow win its players.
Honestly...if a WoW player wanted to play a game similar to WoW, they'd just stick to WoW and reap the benefits of having its playerbase to both support the social nature of it AND support the dev team working on it.
I think you may mean egg coz pidgeons don't come from shit.
Ok, so this thread prompted me to go try the EQ2 trial. I played it for a few hours at launch at my cousins, but not long enough to really see the game (or even remember what that experience was really like). Here are my thoughts:
* Not that different from any other game (go figure)
* Harder than WoW - need to group to really enjoy it
* Nobody else on
I really liked a lot of it, the world design is pretty interesting, I like my character (a ranger Fae), the collection of ingredients is decent (any game with ok or better crafting gets bonus points from me). But the game is really brought down a lot from the forced grouping - I had a blast when I ran a dungeon with another player. Unfortunately, the next time I played no one was near me to run the next set of quests.
How do you play a game that requires other players when nobody else plays!??!?
I doubt my trial account will be changing into a paid account. Hate on item shop games all you want, but at least in DOMO I can go to any boss or dungeon I want to work on, click on 4 or 5 nearby players, and have a team ready to go and have fun. Having more fun in that game than I have had in my 10 hours so far of EQ2. Because of population alone. The combat in eq2 seems really deep and enjoyable, the environments are some of the prettiest that will run on my computer (and it's easy to tweak the settings to make it run a bit smoother), and the crafting >>>> DOMO (at least you have to move from spot to spot when collecting ingredients).
But it's a dead game. RIP. They need to do something to get more players, and it looks like they aren't doing anything. Plus, there is so much hatred for SOE, the only way I see EQ2 climbing out of the pit is if it was sold to another company that people liked. (Hmm, what company do people like. Uh, Blizzard is the only one coming to mind... And people hate Blizzard as well). They would probably have to change the name too. And hide the fact that it used to be everquest. And do a TON of advertising.
Yeah, they fell and they can't get up.
What makes a MMO/RPG game fun is:
-The satisfaction of playing your chosen class
The attack style and feedback you get from executing attacks and fighting your enemies needs to be satisyfing and fun. Whether you solo or group, your role and executing your role should be gratifying. You can have a million miles of virtual real estate but none of it will be worth exploring if playing your character isn't fun.
-Looking forward to the next level/skill/gear upgrade
The game has to make you chomp at the bit to get to the next level or get a new spell that'll be fun to use and make your character more powerful. Having to wait a few levels to equip a powerful sword makes it all that more satisfying when you get there.
-A steady rate of solo advancement, at just the right speed
Everybody likes to level up and staying in one level too long gets tiresome. People also like to play what feels like a competent character that can take care of itself and defeat an equivalent monster. Everquest was notorious for mishandling this one.
-Classes that complement each other in groups
In WoW my melee characters like to group with shaman just for Windfury totem. My casters like the druid form that increases spell crit rate. My shaman loves paladins who use Seal of Wisdom. I feel like grouping to take on elites and bosses enhances my character rather than making me feel weak and underpowered.
I think EQ2 needs a major overhaul to the combat system but it's probably too late. Maybe SOE will get it right next time.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
You just stated all the reasons that I keep coming back to EQ2...
-The satisfaction of playing your chosen class
I like to play hybrid classes or to play a class in a way that maybe one wouldn't normally play... Like taking a tanky type class and through AA's ( like WOW's Talents ) playing them as a DPS class... or taking a cleric type class and through AA's playing them as a melee class... and so on...
-Looking forward to the next level/skill/gear upgrade
There is such an enormous selection of equipment... whether you quest for it... or its dropped off a NPC... or you make it yourself... There is always a new skill or skills waiting at your next level... and there is always someplace new you could hunt that you were just a bit to low for... and one of the things I like best is not having to worry about looking just like the next guy... any race can play any class... and there isnt just one or two BEST pieces of armor for a particular class... there are many many choices...
-A steady rate of solo advancement, at just the right speed
You can solo to 80 if you choose... I play solo about 90% of the time... Sometimes I actually disable my combat experience so that I do not miss out on some quest or areas I have never been to... Or I can always group up in a pick up group or with guildies and go take out some names that are a little tough for me to solo... or just wait a few levels and try to take them on myself...
-Classes that complement each other in groups
This is one of the best things in EQ2... there are 24 different classes... each of them bring something good to a group... some classes work better with others but any combo is a blast... learning ways to compliment each other and make each other more lethal... When you need a healer... there are 6 different kinds to choose from... need a tank?? You could go with the standard plate guys... or get a leather wearing monk to come be your front man... sure you have to adjust and learn how to work with each other... but thats what MMO's are about...
IMHO
Peace
Content isn't king, a smooth game experience in all aspects is king. All aspects including content.
Its not the be all end all, its not the king for cult success but its virtually impossible to have mass appeal without it.
End of Story.
Agreed, goes hand in hand with low system requirements and a simple learning curve. WoW nailed it all, the ability for "some guy" who's never even played a PC game other than Whack a Bush flash games on myspace and pick it up and go. Even with that hand me down laptop, even with no idea of complex RPG rule systems, and he's not CTD'ing every 20 minutes or having to call and wait for GMs nonstop.
Yes because meost other MMO's have PvE too including EQ2
I see just because you have many post on the forum, it doesn't sort these kind of replies away.
Yes, EQ2 is PvE only(mostly, with very inbalanced PvP). The reason why WoW > EQ2 sub-wise, is bcuz WoW has a very balanced Players VS Player environment(AKA PvP).
So no matter how much content you add to a game, if you don't have a basis for PvP, you will leave a huge playerbase behind.
PVP is better in EQ2..No the reason WoW has more subs is because Blizzard big fanbase.. They are loyal as hell also.. They won't even try another MMO besides WoW unless it's made by Blizzard, lol.
Also WoW vs most MMO the devs doesn't add lot of content..lol
Thanks Impyriel for the sig^^
No the reason WoW has more subs is because Blizzard big fanbase.. They are loyal as hell also.. They won't even try another MMO besides WoW unless it's made by Blizzard, lol.
Also WoW vs most MMO the devs doesn't add lot of content..lol
If you think 10 million people bought WoW because they really like Blizzard, I think you're insane. I'd be willing to bet 6 million of those people at least have no clue who the hell Blizzard is other than a label on the box they bought.
Yes because meost other MMO's have PvE too including EQ2
I see just because you have many post on the forum, it doesn't sort these kind of replies away.
Yes, EQ2 is PvE only(mostly, with very inbalanced PvP). The reason why WoW > EQ2 sub-wise, is bcuz WoW has a very balanced Players VS Player environment(AKA PvP).
So no matter how much content you add to a game, if you don't have a basis for PvP, you will leave a huge playerbase behind.
PVP is better in EQ2..No the reason WoW has more subs is because Blizzard big fanbase.. They are loyal as hell also.. They won't even try another MMO besides WoW unless it's made by Blizzard, lol.
Also WoW vs most MMO the devs doesn't add lot of content..lol
I naturally disagree with this.....because in no way has Blizzard made 10 Million Die Hards pre-WoW. But for the sake of arguement......
If so, why is it do you think that their fans are so loyal? I'll answer for you. Because they are loyal to their fans. Blizzard goes above and beyond the call of duty to make sure they do the best they can for their players. Every other company goes only as far as they have to in order to bleed the walking wallet. I'm not saying there aren't great MMO's out there, there are plenty good ones that do a great job. IN fact, the guys behind City of Heros will always have my respect because they really did a great job with that game. THey also did something good for the production community by releasing their engine public to give fledgling workers something to start with and get that experience under their belt.
For all of my personal issues with WoW....I cannot say one ill thing of Blizzard as a company. They are one of the few last companies that actually care two bits about its consumer.
There is a HUGE difference between taking over a year to individually enhance and balance 9 classes and the complete overhaul of 24 classes/combat system AND at the same time beta test the first expansion all in a couple of months. Comparing the two is ludicrous. EQ2s combat revamp was sweeping and filled with just as many overhauls, nerfs and ignoring problems as it was buffs and enhancements. It wasn't a positive experience for many players and the net result of the revamp was almost zero. Some classes got better, some worse and some still remained largely useless. All the revamp did was shuffle around the problems with classes and upset a lot of players.
Honestly the concept of a company trying to balance 24 classes in a handful of weeks is a combination of stupidity, desperation and ego on many levels that only SOE can achieve.
(Not in response to lomiller)
Ignoring all the reasons that make WoW a success, EQ2 should be a run away success also just based on how much turnover WoW has, the overall growth of the MMO market and EQ2 ridding in the number 2 spot for fantasy games. The entire market has exploded population wise and all that EQ2 does is shrink which says more about the gameplay than any criticisms of WoW can do. The success of Guild wars, LOTRO easily in the hundreds of thousands, the box sales of Vanguard over 200k which proves that the market was there for people looking for games other than WoW. There are many other niche games that have also increased subs or held their own in the face of WoW. Beta test applications for Warhammer and Conan easily numbering into the hundreds of thousands each show that people are still looking in large numbers.
EQ2 isn't doing better simply because of EQ2. It isn't because of any other reason that puts blame somewhere else other than square of the feet of EQ2s gameplay or the decisions the SOE made in handling their customers. If the gameplay was so amazing or engrossing it would have attracted hordes of players instead of losing playerbase.
People leaving WoW are just leaving...they aren't going to another MMO, because they never had a previous MMO. They played it, they had fun, they're done now.
That logic is pretty silly. Using that chain of thought...NO other MMO would have any players because when people left UO or EQ they would simply have quit the genre altogether.
If people liked WoW, you can bet they now have their eye on the genre. I would expect many of them hear about other MMO's from guildmates and group members while playing WoW. It would be ignorant to suggest they aren't looking into it.
That logic is pretty silly. Using that chain of thought...NO other MMO would have any players because when people left UO or EQ they would simply have quit the genre altogether.
If people liked WoW, you can bet they now have their eye on the genre. I would expect many of them hear about other MMO's from guildmates and group members while playing WoW. It would be ignorant to suggest they aren't looking into it.
Actually, no...that kind of logic is supported by all the numbers. The FACT is, WoW has it's numbers because it's drawn a HUGE number of non-traditional PC gamers or MMO'ers. What, 10 times Everquest at it's peak? You really think suddenly 9 million more people decided to play MMO's or do you think that WoW was mainstream enough, simple enough to install, play, and enjoy, that the other 9 million said "what the hell".
Those people didn't go find a new MMO, those people said "I have to go to work again" or "I have to pay attention to my girlfriend again" or simply "I have been spending far too much time on a VIDEO GAME" and they moved on.
MOST people in the world have no need for the next best MMO, because they don't play them...the extra 9 million people drawn into WoW were drawn there as a one time deal, IMO, and won't be back for the next, best, thing.
Actually, no...that kind of logic is supported by all the numbers. The FACT is, WoW has it's numbers because it's drawn a HUGE number of non-traditional PC gamers or MMO'ers. What, 10 times Everquest at it's peak? You really think suddenly 9 million more people decided to play MMO's or do you think that WoW was mainstream enough, simple enough to install, play, and enjoy, that the other 9 million said "what the hell".
Those people didn't go find a new MMO, those people said "I have to go to work again" or "I have to pay attention to my girlfriend again" or simply "I have been spending far too much time on a VIDEO GAME" and they moved on.
MOST people in the world have no need for the next best MMO, because they don't play them...the extra 9 million people drawn into WoW were drawn there as a one time deal, IMO, and won't be back for the next, best, thing.
Those issues you describe have been common for ALL MMO's over the years. MMO gamers are not all children, in fact a fat chunk of them are adults using the genre as a form of escapism from the grind of their real life. WoW didn't magically create a playerbase out of the working man, it magically gave OTHER working men a taste of the genre in a way that would welcome them into it. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but real life was never the resistance factor in the equation. The sheer time-dump old school MMOs required was. All the average man needed was an MMO he could fit into his schedual.
Now that the market has realized the financial potential of this so-called "Casual" market...you can bet they will appear to them. You can also bet this market share is going to notice it, because they will still want a world to escape into now that burnout is starting to set in.
You're right, not a single one of those 9 million people will want to try a new MMO. Not one.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
A very bad launch pure and simple....
You're right, not a single one of those 9 million people will want to try a new MMO. Not one.
LOL! I'd say that as people leave WoW it's paved the way for the dozens of 100k sub MMOs out there, for sure. That said, it won't open the way for a giant million sub MMO by a long shot. MANY, not all, but MANY WoW players won't have ever played and won't ever play another MMO.
sorry guy...fact.
You're right, not a single one of those 9 million people will want to try a new MMO. Not one.
LOL! I'd say that as people leave WoW it's paved the way for the dozens of 100k sub MMOs out there, for sure. That said, it won't open the way for a giant million sub MMO by a long shot. MANY, not all, but MANY WoW players won't have ever played and won't ever play another MMO.
sorry guy...fact.
Sure, many won't play another MMO.But if "many" means "more people than have ever played any other MMO before WoW," that still leaves millions of people who WILL potentially look to next gen MMOs.
I will agree with you to an extent, and here's why. Not only have more people played WoW than any other MMO ever made, more people have QUIT playing WoW than have ever played any MMO ever made.
Apparently, the millions of people who QUIT playing WoW have not flooded the other existing MMOs, new or old. But that might just mean that they don't have the stomach for MMOs afterall. On the other hand, the millions of people who are sticking with WoW will eventually tire of it. Many of the younger players will mature, and possibly look for something with more depth.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Vincenz, my point was that WoW has most likely lost more subs than EQ2 will ever have. If a game like LOTRO can get a couple hundred thousand subs, Vanguard can sell over 220k boxes, Warhammer getting 500k beta application, so on and so on then there is a market of people looking to play a game that isn't WoW. If EQ2s content was so awesome then it shouldn't have any trouble easily getting more players than it has.
Saying that millions and millions of people have joined the MMO world through WoW and won't play other games is being a little obtuse. Unless you want to believe that all these new games are building subscriber bases of people who have never played WoW before?
Perhaps the truth is that if WoW was someones first game then most others games just don't measure up?
I'm still trying to figure out where you people get the factual numbers that indicate millions of people have quit WoW? Do you have these reports, where are the links to these factual documents? I have seen no indication that WoW has anywhere close to the millions of turnovers you talk about.
Even if that were remotely true, I see evidence all the time on the boards that people who don't like the current crop of games are "Waiting" for AoC and WAR. Seems to me that it's more logical that people would wait for future games than stop playing the genre cold turkey. I mean, WoW is still growing and not just by a little nor is it shrinking, which means people are enjoying this particular MMO and will likely try another.
You people keep spewing your arguments as facts with nothing to back them up, not even plausible conjecture. If these newbies liked WoW, which is most likely the case considering it's visible retention of players, how do you come to the conclusion that the majority of them will quit playing MMOs when they finish with WoW? Logic would dictate otherwise.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I agree that most people in WoW are most likely waiting for WoW or AoC which is the reason other MMOs are not bursting at the seams with drops offs from WoW.
I try to be clear that I am speculating when I say "most likely" before guessing how many people have played WoW. I can make that an educated guess based on how many people I have seen come and go in WoW guilds/social circles I've been in (and also how many seem to return). Furthermore since WoW has been on the top 5 best selling PC software every month since release I can only guess that they are selling far more copies over 3 years than they have retained. I try to be clear that I'm speculating, but even if blizzard retained 9 out of every ten players that have ever bought a copy that would still be over a million lost players. Blizzard would have to be near perfect to not have lost at least that many.