I agree with some here that WoWs system is poor and boring.
The best character customization I have encountered in a class/level game, is DDO hands down. free skill point allocation, free stat point allocation, almost unlimited freedom in choice of feats, multiclassing, 4 enchantment points per level, Some classes have to choose their spells per level... Its almost impossible to make two identical characters..
...naturally, in a game with so much freedom, the class balance goes haywire...but DDO dont need it
I played many mmorpgs and i think blizzard is the only company that really perfected the talent system. And still does, i have yet to play a mmorpg with a AA/Talent system like WoWs, because for one reason. When we play WoW from 1-40 40 talent points in there really is a TRUE change to the class it makes it feel like playing a whole class all together kind of like a new class. Once at 40 you can tell a major difference between a Prot war/ fury war/ arms war , Holy priest/Shadow priest, etc. I think talents are a must have in any mmorpg because it really allows you to be more unique to your class WoWs system is ALMOST skill based mixed with a level based system. I Tried EQ2 talent system and for some reason it just doesnt hit the spot like WoWs does.
Warcraft's talents are NOWHERE near a skill-based game in terms of customizability. Skill-based games will always hold the trophy in this area.
But as far as class-games are concerned, I will agree that it's pretty good. The best? I dunno, I really don't think I can make that call. Mostly it will come down to opinion, I think.
It beats class-games without any specialization trees, for sure.
you want true customization and character creation? go play city of heroes.
I really don't see how CoX has skill customization really. A tank is a tank, a DPS is a DPS, a support is a support. You can't stray far at all from what your class is created to do.
It sure does have a lot of customization for looks though, no doubt about that.
like you said a tank is a tank a dps is a dps, why WoWs talent system is good because take the paladin for example
A holy paladin talent spec cant take worth crap but if you take the talents and make a protection speced paladin it can become a true tank.
Now take a priest
A priest can be a main healer or if talent changes it can become a fierce dpser.
Come on. Do you people even play CoX? There are all kinds of high DPS tank specs.
And there are far far far far more possible specs in Cox than there are in WoW. Add in inventions and the possiblies go from an order of magnitude more specs to two orders of magnitude.
Have you ever even heard of an offender build? I mean seriously this is just rank ignorance. The variations in gameplay of just the defender Archetype could probably encompass half the classes in WoW. The defender Archetype in CoX utterly destroys the WoW priest class in different gameplay options offered. I would go so far as to say the defnder archetype alone has more variations in gameply than WoW's entire class system including the talents.
This post is staggeringly wrong. It actually hurts my brain.
Anyone saying a CoX Archetype has less variation than any class in WoW, whatever class it is, is so far wrong it boggles my mind. I am tempted to say this is one of the most blatantly incorrect things I have seen on these forums. And that says a lot.
you want true customization and character creation? go play city of heroes.
I really don't see how CoX has skill customization really. A tank is a tank, a DPS is a DPS, a support is a support. You can't stray far at all from what your class is created to do.
It sure does have a lot of customization for looks though, no doubt about that.
like you said a tank is a tank a dps is a dps, why WoWs talent system is good because take the paladin for example
A holy paladin talent spec cant take worth crap but if you take the talents and make a protection speced paladin it can become a true tank.
Now take a priest
A priest can be a main healer or if talent changes it can become a fierce dpser.
Come on. Do you people even play CoX? There are all kinds of high DPS tank specs.
And there are far far far far more possible specs in Cox than there are in WoW. Add in inventions and the possiblies go from an order of magnitude more specs to two orders of magnitude.
Have you ever even heard of an offender build? I mean seriously this is just rank ignorance. The variations in gameplay of just the defender Archetype could probably encompass half the classes in WoW. The defender Archetype in CoX utterly destroys the WoW priest class in different gameplay options offered. I would go so far as to say the defnder archetype alone has more variations in gameply than WoW's entire class system including the talents.
This post is staggeringly wrong. It actually hurts my brain.
Anyone saying a CoX Archetype has less variation than any class in WoW, whatever class it is, is so far wrong it boggles my mind. I am tempted to say this is one of the most blatantly incorrect things I have seen on these forums. And that says a lot.
I think you nailed it on the head here. I have played both games, and the city of heroes series blows WoW away in this aspect. This really is a no brainer, and a debate is a waste of time.
WoW's talent progression is good...however I've also played EQ2 and the AA system and advancement in skills is a little more in depth and grants further choices...however you'll still always have those cookie-cutter builds that seem to overpower TRUE character uniqueness
EQ2's talent system is actually inferior to WoW's in that EQ2's does not allow your class to alter it's general platform of use; WoW, on the other hand, does indeed do that.
As the OP said there's a fairly substantial difference between Prot warriors, Fury warriors, and Arms warriors.
In EQ2 all it does really is increase your overall productiveness and efficiency of what your class's basic premise is; which in reality is not customization at all, but rather upgrading.
This is not really true. Its depends on the class. The mystic and inquisitor AA lines add significant melee damage.
The certainly change the purview of a mystic in a similar way shadow spec does for a WoW priest and in addition EQ2 had two separate kinds of AA's and lets you go down multiple trees.
Many other AA offer new special abilities as well.
Finally your ciriticism of why EQ2's AA don't offer much difference is also true of a large portion of WoW talents.
Overall all they offer about they same amount of bonus efficacy and playstyle change ups. But EQ2 offers two dimension to it and WoW only offers one.
you want true customization and character creation? go play city of heroes.
I really don't see how CoX has skill customization really. A tank is a tank, a DPS is a DPS, a support is a support. You can't stray far at all from what your class is created to do.
It sure does have a lot of customization for looks though, no doubt about that.
like you said a tank is a tank a dps is a dps, why WoWs talent system is good because take the paladin for example
A holy paladin talent spec cant take worth crap but if you take the talents and make a protection speced paladin it can become a true tank.
Now take a priest
A priest can be a main healer or if talent changes it can become a fierce dpser.
Come on. Do you people even play CoX? There are all kinds of high DPS tank specs.
And there are far far far far more possible specs in Cox than there are in WoW. Add in inventions and the possiblies go from an order of magnitude more specs to two orders of magnitude.
Have you ever even heard of an offender build? I mean seriously this is just rank ignorance. The variations in gameplay of just the defender Archetype could probably encompass half the classes in WoW. The defender Archetype in CoX utterly destroys the WoW priest class in different gameplay options offered. I would go so far as to say the defnder archetype alone has more variations in gameply than WoW's entire class system including the talents.
This post is staggeringly wrong. It actually hurts my brain.
Anyone saying a CoX Archetype has less variation than any class in WoW, whatever class it is, is so far wrong it boggles my mind. I am tempted to say this is one of the most blatantly incorrect things I have seen on these forums. And that says a lot.
I was going to bring up CoX Archetypes, but aren't they a different animal? Not Skill Based, but are they really Class Based? I'd say "Ability Set" based.
But if you consider them class based, then yes, CoX trumps WoW.
I thought WoW was pretty good for a level/class system til I played Guild Wars which trumped it for me.
Guild Wars is so well designed and so revolutionary I don't even consider it a level/class system.
It is its own animal. Something entirely new. I don't even know what to call. But its pretty damn impressive.
I've never been so impressed by an RPG design, and I have the 1 edition Monster Manual 2 memorized. Not that 1ed D&D was designed amazingly, but I have read alot of rpg stuff.
With WoW you could put your talent points wherever you like. if you just randomly distributed your points you'd be gimped, there are countless forums and posts about theorycrafting the talent trees. Some go so far as to have graphs and optimum dps with a system of attaching a value to a particular attribute or statistic.
In reality there looks like there are lots of choices to be made with regards to talent trees, but in truth there are 3 as others have said a PvE, PvP and raid. There are slight variations in what talents to pick, but the core skills are chosen, because the ones NOT chosen plain suck.
If players could pick talents without severely gimping their character then you could argue that WoW has true customisation. Who in their sane mind would deliberately gimp their character just to be different? Yes there are small tweaks, options, you could put a point here instead of there, but there are so many players out there that the bad options are debunked usually very quickly.
So to sum up, there aren't many options, because a lot of the talents suck the big one forcing the majority to pick a "build". Blizzard could remove the option of talents altogether and just give 3 subclasses per class raid, pve and pvp. Would it matter in raid or pve? No. In PvP? Well any serious PvPer would want to optimise their setup anyway so it would probably be fairly similar. In arenas provided the game doesn't drag on, most PvP builds would own a more PvE one although you'd be surprised what great players can do.
you want true customization and character creation? go play city of heroes.
I really don't see how CoX has skill customization really. A tank is a tank, a DPS is a DPS, a support is a support. You can't stray far at all from what your class is created to do.
It sure does have a lot of customization for looks though, no doubt about that.
like you said a tank is a tank a dps is a dps, why WoWs talent system is good because take the paladin for example
A holy paladin talent spec cant take worth crap but if you take the talents and make a protection speced paladin it can become a true tank.
Now take a priest
A priest can be a main healer or if talent changes it can become a fierce dpser.
Come on. Do you people even play CoX? There are all kinds of high DPS tank specs.
And there are far far far far more possible specs in Cox than there are in WoW. Add in inventions and the possiblies go from an order of magnitude more specs to two orders of magnitude.
Have you ever even heard of an offender build? I mean seriously this is just rank ignorance. The variations in gameplay of just the defender Archetype could probably encompass half the classes in WoW. The defender Archetype in CoX utterly destroys the WoW priest class in different gameplay options offered. I would go so far as to say the defnder archetype alone has more variations in gameply than WoW's entire class system including the talents.
This post is staggeringly wrong. It actually hurts my brain.
Anyone saying a CoX Archetype has less variation than any class in WoW, whatever class it is, is so far wrong it boggles my mind. I am tempted to say this is one of the most blatantly incorrect things I have seen on these forums. And that says a lot.
I was going to bring up CoX Archetypes, but aren't they a different animal? Not Skill Based, but are they really Class Based? I'd say "Ability Set" based.
But if you consider them class based, then yes, CoX trumps WoW.
No I don't consider them the same. They really are not. And that is why they are called Archetypes instead of classes. And just another part of the staggering ignorance.
The problem is they are comparing a WoW tank to CoX tanks and they simply have no clue. I had to compare classes to archetypes. Explaining the archetype concept would take too long.
It is enough to show that there statement is completely wrong though. Tanks can tank and tanks can do very good damage, they have far more different ways to protect themselves and far more different ways to do damage. Trying to say the warrior class and its talent spec trumps the tank archetype is simply preposterous given, that the WoW warrior has three ways to go and the Tanks AT has more than 20 and both the CoX and WoW versions can DPS or Tank or Both.
Then add in inventions with all the other customization and special procs and we are talking about prot /fury/arms versus 20 different power set combination expanding into 100 different builds.
Is the comparison fair? No an AT is far more flexible than a class. That is why this post is so staggeringly wrong it hurts my brain. If they even had an inkling of what they were talking about they would never have tried to make this comparison. Its flabbergasting.
With WoW you could put your talent points wherever you like. if you just randomly distributed your points you'd be gimped, there are countless forums and posts about theorycrafting the talent trees. Some go so far as to have graphs and optimum dps with a system of attaching a value to a particular attribute or statistic. In reality there looks like there are lots of choices to be made with regards to talent trees, but in truth there are 3 as others have said a PvE, PvP and raid. There are slight variations in what talents to pick, but the core skills are chosen, because the ones NOT chosen plain suck. If players could pick talents without severely gimping their character then you could argue that WoW has true customisation. Who in their sane mind would deliberately gimp their character just to be different? Yes there are small tweaks, options, you could put a point here instead of there, but there are so many players out there that the bad options are debunked usually very quickly. So to sum up, there aren't many options, because a lot of the talents suck the big one forcing the majority to pick a "build". Blizzard could remove the option of talents altogether and just give 3 subclasses per class raid, pve and pvp. Would it matter in raid or pve? No. In PvP? Well any serious PvPer would want to optimise their setup anyway so it would probably be fairly similar. In arenas provided the game doesn't drag on, most PvP builds would own a more PvE one although you'd be surprised what great players can do.
Isn't this also true of many skill based games? People like the say they are more customizable but in reality they suffer the same cookie cutter effect.
Just because you can do something does mean its a good idea. Just because some skills system may have millions of variations, if only 5 are used by 90% of the population. Then really its customization is seriously flawed.
This doesn't apply to EvE skills i don't feel like explaining why suffice it to say they are highly differentiated and specialied , but it certainly is a concern for many other skill based games.
Sure in theory they have good coustomization, but in practice how many have really been better than WoW?
I beat if someone went through it in details you might find many of these skill based are roughly equivalent to WoW in practice. By that I mean what a large portion of people actually use.
WoW, in its talent system, does give the "appearance" of customization. But unfortunately it also requires you to fit a certain build in order to play the chosen classes.
So, WoW gave the option of some customization, and count it as "TRUE" customization? Not by a long shot.
As to the topic of respec, it must be mention that the whole idea of character customization is NOT just to be different than other players, but to FIT YOUR PLAY-STYLE...
If you have to respec into another build in order to play with other, you are forced to change your own play-style which is NOT a true character customization. If the design makes you respec into certain builds in order to play with others, it is a BAD design, and cannot be said to be TRUE character customization.
Besides, if a player is changing his/her play-style, it should take time since it require the players to learn something new about their character's capability. If you are forced to respec into a build where you do not truly understand the idea and the style such build is made for, you will screw up big in group, and you will probably not be invited back to the same group... Bad design overall (IMO)...
With WoW you could put your talent points wherever you like. if you just randomly distributed your points you'd be gimped, there are countless forums and posts about theorycrafting the talent trees. Some go so far as to have graphs and optimum dps with a system of attaching a value to a particular attribute or statistic. In reality there looks like there are lots of choices to be made with regards to talent trees, but in truth there are 3 as others have said a PvE, PvP and raid. There are slight variations in what talents to pick, but the core skills are chosen, because the ones NOT chosen plain suck. If players could pick talents without severely gimping their character then you could argue that WoW has true customisation. Who in their sane mind would deliberately gimp their character just to be different? Yes there are small tweaks, options, you could put a point here instead of there, but there are so many players out there that the bad options are debunked usually very quickly. So to sum up, there aren't many options, because a lot of the talents suck the big one forcing the majority to pick a "build". Blizzard could remove the option of talents altogether and just give 3 subclasses per class raid, pve and pvp. Would it matter in raid or pve? No. In PvP? Well any serious PvPer would want to optimise their setup anyway so it would probably be fairly similar. In arenas provided the game doesn't drag on, most PvP builds would own a more PvE one although you'd be surprised what great players can do.
Isn't this also true of many skill based games? People like the say they are more customizable but in reality they suffer the same cookie cutter effect.
True to some extend, but it depend on the design of other related systems (grouping, play-style, dungeon, etc...)
Just because you can do something does mean its a good idea. Just because some skills system may have millions of variations, if only 5 are used by 90% of the population. Then really its customization is seriously flawed.
Again, it is due to the design of PvE, PvP, grouping, etc... in order to have freedom in customization, the systems should be design to allow such. (No preset builds for dungeon, no preset teams to do PvE/PvP/raid... etc)
This doesn't apply to EvE skills i don't feel like explaining why suffice it to say they are highly differentiated and specialied , but it certainly is a concern for many other skill based games.
Sure in theory they have good coustomization, but in practice how many have really been better than WoW?
I beat if someone went through it in details you might find many of these skill based are roughly equivalent to WoW in practice. By that I mean what a large portion of people actually use.
You did mention a very good point in the fact that many skill-based system function just like WoW's talent system, but it isn't just because the design is flawed, but it is because of the other systems that are linked to the character customization system. (Like PvE, PvP, Raid, Grouping, Dungeon just to name a few)...
When the design breaks away the need to have a set template, you will have people build their characters their own way, and maybe some has similar idea and build the characters the same way, but due to the way they play their character, it should bring a difference into the game...
With WoW you could put your talent points wherever you like. if you just randomly distributed your points you'd be gimped, there are countless forums and posts about theorycrafting the talent trees. Some go so far as to have graphs and optimum dps with a system of attaching a value to a particular attribute or statistic. In reality there looks like there are lots of choices to be made with regards to talent trees, but in truth there are 3 as others have said a PvE, PvP and raid. There are slight variations in what talents to pick, but the core skills are chosen, because the ones NOT chosen plain suck. If players could pick talents without severely gimping their character then you could argue that WoW has true customisation. Who in their sane mind would deliberately gimp their character just to be different? Yes there are small tweaks, options, you could put a point here instead of there, but there are so many players out there that the bad options are debunked usually very quickly. So to sum up, there aren't many options, because a lot of the talents suck the big one forcing the majority to pick a "build". Blizzard could remove the option of talents altogether and just give 3 subclasses per class raid, pve and pvp. Would it matter in raid or pve? No. In PvP? Well any serious PvPer would want to optimise their setup anyway so it would probably be fairly similar. In arenas provided the game doesn't drag on, most PvP builds would own a more PvE one although you'd be surprised what great players can do.
Isn't this also true of many skill based games? People like the say they are more customizable but in reality they suffer the same cookie cutter effect.
True to some extend, but it depend on the design of other related systems (grouping, play-style, dungeon, etc...)
Just because you can do something does mean its a good idea. Just because some skills system may have millions of variations, if only 5 are used by 90% of the population. Then really its customization is seriously flawed.
Again, it is due to the design of PvE, PvP, grouping, etc... in order to have freedom in customization, the systems should be design to allow such. (No preset builds for dungeon, no preset teams to do PvE/PvP/raid... etc)
This doesn't apply to EvE skills i don't feel like explaining why suffice it to say they are highly differentiated and specialied , but it certainly is a concern for many other skill based games.
Sure in theory they have good coustomization, but in practice how many have really been better than WoW?
I beat if someone went through it in details you might find many of these skill based are roughly equivalent to WoW in practice. By that I mean what a large portion of people actually use.
You did mention a very good point in the fact that many skill-based system function just like WoW's talent system, but it isn't just because the design is flawed, but it is because of the other systems that are linked to the character customization system. (Like PvE, PvP, Raid, Grouping, Dungeon just to name a few)...
When the design breaks away the need to have a set template, you will have people build their characters their own way, and maybe some has similar idea and build the characters the same way, but due to the way they play their character, it should bring a difference into the game...
Well yes, its is possible that skill system is not flawed in this way and I believe that for the most part EvE is an example of this.
But many people act like skill systems are automatically free and amazingly customizable. But from a practical standpoint the really is just an illusion if 90% of that variation is not something very many people ever use.
I mean I can strap the carcass of a dead and decaying smelly moose onto the top of my car and spray it with skunk musk and then cover it in maggots. However I don't want to, nor do very many sane people want to this. At least I hope they don't/
My main point here is that if we look at the current body of skill based games from UO onwards, I bet that a majority of them do not really show much that more variety in use than WoW.
Is it possible for skill based games to accomplish more variety? Yes. Not gonna argue with you there. But the question is how many really have? And I think the answer may be "very few".
I played many mmorpgs and i think blizzard is the only company that really perfected the talent system. And still does, i have yet to play a mmorpg with a AA/Talent system like WoWs, because for one reason. When we play WoW from 1-40 40 talent points in there really is a TRUE change to the class it makes it feel like playing a whole class all together kind of like a new class. Once at 40 you can tell a major difference between a Prot war/ fury war/ arms war , Holy priest/Shadow priest, etc. I think talents are a must have in any mmorpg because it really allows you to be more unique to your class WoWs system is ALMOST skill based mixed with a level based system. I Tried EQ2 talent system and for some reason it just doesnt hit the spot like WoWs does.
Haha this is so radicilous. TRUE change? Those 1-40 points? You still use the same spells from level 10, and then you ocasionally get a new spell from talents that does not really change your killing tactic at all. The system doesn't allow you to be a healer with stealth, or a mage in plate, or an unarmed martial artist. The decision is so small, you either focus on fire or ice as a mage. Or you focus on dps or tank as a warrior. That's so limited and linear how can someone call it a good character customization? There are few cookie cutters classes with their builds that are nowhere near each other. You can't combine and you can't make something unique. HOW can someone call this the best character customization is beyond me.
There are games that allow you to be whatever you want to be. You can be a main healer, wear a leather armor, hide in shadows and make poisons for your deadly arrows at the same time. Or you can be a a little clumsy mage wearing a plate mail reanimating dead bodies into skeletons. THERE ARE GAMES OUT THERE THAT ALLOW IT.
Every game will have its min/max theorycrafters who will come up with optimal builds. WoW has this, even EVE has it --> there are optimal skill loadouts for any number of things in EVE, don't kid yourself. Any system that is set up can and will be rigged by the players to min/max it, it's just the way human beings are. That has no impact, however, on whether a skill system is good, or allows for customization. If you want to min/max, in *any* game you will be limited in your customization choices because you will be convinced that "some choices suck" -- and for certain things in the game, undoubtedly they so suck. That's the case for every game.
Having said that, what Billzard has done with WoW is, in effect, to make sub-classes through use of the talent trees. This is not a bad design because it gives players the ability to experience different kinds of play with one character. A protection paladin plays entirely differently from a retribution paladin (lolret aside); same for shadow vs. holy priest, feral v. balance druid, etc. The system mostly works pretty well, even if players are "forced" into one spec if they want to min/max their character for a certain setting.
Every game will have its min/max theorycrafters who will come up with optimal builds. WoW has this, even EVE has it --> there are optimal skill loadouts for any number of things in EVE, don't kid yourself. Any system that is set up can and will be rigged by the players to min/max it, it's just the way human beings are. That has no impact, however, on whether a skill system is good, or allows for customization. If you want to min/max, in *any* game you will be limited in your customization choices because you will be convinced that "some choices suck" -- and for certain things in the game, undoubtedly they so suck. That's the case for every game. Having said that, what Billzard has done with WoW is, in effect, to make sub-classes through use of the talent trees. This is not a bad design because it gives players the ability to experience different kinds of play with one character. A protection paladin plays entirely differently from a retribution paladin (lolret aside); same for shadow vs. holy priest, feral v. balance druid, etc. The system mostly works pretty well, even if players are "forced" into one spec if they want to min/max their character for a certain setting.
Having said that however, how do you think it relates to the OP's main point that WoW is the only MMORPG with TRUE character customization? I believe as hes been pointed out many times in this thread by many people that this is simply not the case.....
Having said that however, how do you think it relates to the OP's main point that WoW is the only MMORPG with TRUE character customization? I believe as hes been pointed out many times in this thread by many people that this is simply not the case.....
Certainly it's incorrect to state it that way -- usually statements with words like "only" and "true" in respect of subjective things are wrong. So yes I think that the OP is inaccurate.
Originally posted by gestalt11 Originally posted by Xenduli With WoW you could put your talent points wherever you like. if you just randomly distributed your points you'd be gimped, there are countless forums and posts about theorycrafting the talent trees. Some go so far as to have graphs and optimum dps with a system of attaching a value to a particular attribute or statistic. In reality there looks like there are lots of choices to be made with regards to talent trees, but in truth there are 3 as others have said a PvE, PvP and raid. There are slight variations in what talents to pick, but the core skills are chosen, because the ones NOT chosen plain suck. If players could pick talents without severely gimping their character then you could argue that WoW has true customisation. Who in their sane mind would deliberately gimp their character just to be different? Yes there are small tweaks, options, you could put a point here instead of there, but there are so many players out there that the bad options are debunked usually very quickly. So to sum up, there aren't many options, because a lot of the talents suck the big one forcing the majority to pick a "build". Blizzard could remove the option of talents altogether and just give 3 subclasses per class raid, pve and pvp. Would it matter in raid or pve? No. In PvP? Well any serious PvPer would want to optimise their setup anyway so it would probably be fairly similar. In arenas provided the game doesn't drag on, most PvP builds would own a more PvE one although you'd be surprised what great players can do.
Isn't this also true of many skill based games? People like the say they are more customizable but in reality they suffer the same cookie cutter effect.
Just because you can do something does mean its a good idea. Just because some skills system may have millions of variations, if only 5 are used by 90% of the population. Then really its customization is seriously flawed.
This doesn't apply to EvE skills i don't feel like explaining why suffice it to say they are highly differentiated and specialied , but it certainly is a concern for many other skill based games. Sure in theory they have good coustomization, but in practice how many have really been better than WoW?
I beat if someone went through it in details you might find many of these skill based are roughly equivalent to WoW in practice. By that I mean what a large portion of people actually use.
1- In a skill based title, a crafter can be a "pure" crafter 2- In a skill based title, a pvper can skillup purely from DUELs 3- In a skill based title, in order to be the best swordsman I just practice swinging my sword. Impossible in WoW you would have to level up to max cap 4- In a skill-based RPG, many allow you to learn ANY skill on one character. Impossible in WoW 5- Most skill-based systems lack Tactical Transparency. For example, in a Class based game you know a Mage on sight. in most skill-based titles, you have no idea what your enemy is capable of 6- Skill-based systems are freeform. You can pursue any skill at anytime.
The ideal skill-based system hasn't really been presented in mmorpgs so far either
This topic is void until the OP tries his hands at Anarchy online.. Sure graphics suck blah blah blah blah, game is old blah BUT the customization is unmatched.. UNmatched as to say that VERY class can use ANY standard weapon! They added perks that even allow FURTHER customization with skills.. It is wild and kind of complicated.. IF you think that WoW has the "best" customization my friend you owe it to yourself to try more than just EQ2 (wow clones)...
Even eve has that deep customization.. It may take time, but you will notice that your playing experience changes GREATLY depending on how you develop your character and what skills you take rather than what you START off with..
Explore a little before giving ultimate praise... OR... umm..
With WoW you could put your talent points wherever you like. if you just randomly distributed your points you'd be gimped, there are countless forums and posts about theorycrafting the talent trees. Some go so far as to have graphs and optimum dps with a system of attaching a value to a particular attribute or statistic.
In reality there looks like there are lots of choices to be made with regards to talent trees, but in truth there are 3 as others have said a PvE, PvP and raid. There are slight variations in what talents to pick, but the core skills are chosen, because the ones NOT chosen plain suck.
If players could pick talents without severely gimping their character then you could argue that WoW has true customisation. Who in their sane mind would deliberately gimp their character just to be different? Yes there are small tweaks, options, you could put a point here instead of there, but there are so many players out there that the bad options are debunked usually very quickly.
So to sum up, there aren't many options, because a lot of the talents suck the big one forcing the majority to pick a "build". Blizzard could remove the option of talents altogether and just give 3 subclasses per class raid, pve and pvp. Would it matter in raid or pve? No. In PvP? Well any serious PvPer would want to optimise their setup anyway so it would probably be fairly similar. In arenas provided the game doesn't drag on, most PvP builds would own a more PvE one although you'd be surprised what great players can do.
Isn't this also true of many skill based games? People like the say they are more customizable but in reality they suffer the same cookie cutter effect.
Just because you can do something does mean its a good idea. Just because some skills system may have millions of variations, if only 5 are used by 90% of the population. Then really its customization is seriously flawed.
This doesn't apply to EvE skills i don't feel like explaining why suffice it to say they are highly differentiated and specialied , but it certainly is a concern for many other skill based games.
Sure in theory they have good coustomization, but in practice how many have really been better than WoW?
I beat if someone went through it in details you might find many of these skill based are roughly equivalent to WoW in practice. By that I mean what a large portion of people actually use.
1- In a skill based title, a crafter can be a "pure" crafter. Can Be but do many people do it? Also You could easily make a skill game with separate crafting skill progression. In fact WoW crafting is skill/use base in advancent.
2- In a skill based title, a pvper can skillup purely from DUELs. Only if it has use based advance and use based advancement has a number of significant problems. Such the the first generation of true sucoessors to UO (EvE and Neocron) do not sue it at all or modify it.
3- In a skill based title, in order to be the best swordsman I just practice swinging my sword. Impossible in WoW you would have to level up to max cap. Again you are talking about use based advance not a skill based game. And this has no impact of customization. Just how you achieve the customization.
4- In a skill-based RPG, many allow you to learn ANY skill on one character. Impossible in WoW. Is this even a good idea? EvE theoetically could have a character that had every skill but its impossible due to the fact that they put too many skills in to ever actually get to even with a character made at release. They do not want anyone to get every skill, even though they like the idea of skill deversification as a reward.
5- Most skill-based systems lack Tactical Transparency. For example, in a Class based game you know a Mage on sight. in most skill-based titles, you have no idea what your enemy is capable of
If we call Guild Wars a class based game then this is not true. In fact Guild Wars makes it far far more uncertain than any skill based game. I have said in this thread that i think GW is a special case but either way it illustrates that a locked down hard to change spec is what really ruins this. Because you only need to see a person once in a skill based game to know, where as in GW you NEVER know. Clearly real freeform customization like what GW has offers more and better tactical transparency and it has nothing to do with class OR skills.
6- Skill-based systems are freeform. You can pursue any skill at anytime.
Can yes, but do many people do take advantage of it? If they aren't your system is not actually diverse. It is not offering people a wealth of options with good trade offs. It may offer a wealth of options but that doesn't mean it offers a wealth of GOOD options.
The ideal skill-based system hasn't really been presented in mmorpgs so far either
Originally posted by Nomatica I played many mmorpgs and i think blizzard is the only company that really perfected the talent system. And still does, i have yet to play a mmorpg with a AA/Talent system like WoWs, because for one reason. When we play WoW from 1-40 40 talent points in there really is a TRUE change to the class it makes it feel like playing a whole class all together kind of like a new class. Once at 40 you can tell a major difference between a Prot war/ fury war/ arms war , Holy priest/Shadow priest, etc. I think talents are a must have in any mmorpg because it really allows you to be more unique to your class WoWs system is ALMOST skill based mixed with a level based system. I Tried EQ2 talent system and for some reason it just doesnt hit the spot like WoWs does.
The only thing I will say to this is that their talent system isn't perfect for two reasons.
The first reason is that they actually managed to break talent builds.
For example priest were the only classes that could feasibly tri-spec (putting an average of 9 points in each tree). Their flexibility was so high that even with the mismatch of holy and shadow they had about 9 viable talent builds But when patch 2.0 came out Blizzard tuned the trees in a way that reduced priests viable options to about 5 builds and obviously trispeccing wasn't feasible anymore.
The second reason is by their own standards the talent system isn't perfect. They want all trees to be viable for pvp or pve. They are getting their with rogues but the vast majority of classes are no where near to achieving this goal.
I will say that even though they aren't anywhere near to reaching that goal it is obvious they are trying to reach it and they could reach it once the increase the level cap one more time after Wrath. But their biggest problem is that even if they do reach it that achievement won't last for long because of the way classes' abilities scale with gear.
Certain abilities scale faster than others and as a result abilities that were crappy with greens become viable or the best abilities to use with high end purples. Blizzard intentionally designed the classes this way so players have the joy of constantly experimenting with their class.
Unfortuneately beause of the way disproportionate scaling works Blizzard has to constantly mess around with coefficients and other values to prevent fast scaling abilities from being powerful forever. This leads to nerfs that fundamentally change how classes work. This requirement for fundamental change means that any perfection achieved from the talent tree retuning will always be very short lived.
From what I've seen of WoW, characters still all fit into the archetypal system of most MMOs. Frankly, I think DDO's cusomization is far superior. Feats, skills, enhancements, stats, and most importantly the ability to multiclass means you can make a fighter/bard mix unlike any other who's a completely viable and powerful character. Melee casters, battle clerics, and on and on.
no way on wow all warriors have the same skills etc. warriors only different slightly from different tallents points. in game like guild wars because there are so many skills, and a limited skill bar and because you can have secondary classees. there are endless types of warriors you can be. guildwars is the best, so far.
Comments
I agree with some here that WoWs system is poor and boring.
The best character customization I have encountered in a class/level game, is DDO hands down. free skill point allocation, free stat point allocation, almost unlimited freedom in choice of feats, multiclassing, 4 enchantment points per level, Some classes have to choose their spells per level... Its almost impossible to make two identical characters..
...naturally, in a game with so much freedom, the class balance goes haywire...but DDO dont need it
But as far as class-games are concerned, I will agree that it's pretty good. The best? I dunno, I really don't think I can make that call. Mostly it will come down to opinion, I think.
It beats class-games without any specialization trees, for sure.
It sure does have a lot of customization for looks though, no doubt about that.
like you said a tank is a tank a dps is a dps, why WoWs talent system is good because take the paladin for exampleA holy paladin talent spec cant take worth crap but if you take the talents and make a protection speced paladin it can become a true tank.
Now take a priest
A priest can be a main healer or if talent changes it can become a fierce dpser.
Come on. Do you people even play CoX? There are all kinds of high DPS tank specs.And there are far far far far more possible specs in Cox than there are in WoW. Add in inventions and the possiblies go from an order of magnitude more specs to two orders of magnitude.
Have you ever even heard of an offender build? I mean seriously this is just rank ignorance. The variations in gameplay of just the defender Archetype could probably encompass half the classes in WoW. The defender Archetype in CoX utterly destroys the WoW priest class in different gameplay options offered. I would go so far as to say the defnder archetype alone has more variations in gameply than WoW's entire class system including the talents.
This post is staggeringly wrong. It actually hurts my brain.
Anyone saying a CoX Archetype has less variation than any class in WoW, whatever class it is, is so far wrong it boggles my mind. I am tempted to say this is one of the most blatantly incorrect things I have seen on these forums. And that says a lot.
It sure does have a lot of customization for looks though, no doubt about that.
like you said a tank is a tank a dps is a dps, why WoWs talent system is good because take the paladin for exampleA holy paladin talent spec cant take worth crap but if you take the talents and make a protection speced paladin it can become a true tank.
Now take a priest
A priest can be a main healer or if talent changes it can become a fierce dpser.
Come on. Do you people even play CoX? There are all kinds of high DPS tank specs.And there are far far far far more possible specs in Cox than there are in WoW. Add in inventions and the possiblies go from an order of magnitude more specs to two orders of magnitude.
Have you ever even heard of an offender build? I mean seriously this is just rank ignorance. The variations in gameplay of just the defender Archetype could probably encompass half the classes in WoW. The defender Archetype in CoX utterly destroys the WoW priest class in different gameplay options offered. I would go so far as to say the defnder archetype alone has more variations in gameply than WoW's entire class system including the talents.
This post is staggeringly wrong. It actually hurts my brain.
Anyone saying a CoX Archetype has less variation than any class in WoW, whatever class it is, is so far wrong it boggles my mind. I am tempted to say this is one of the most blatantly incorrect things I have seen on these forums. And that says a lot.
I think you nailed it on the head here. I have played both games, and the city of heroes series blows WoW away in this aspect. This really is a no brainer, and a debate is a waste of time.
As the OP said there's a fairly substantial difference between Prot warriors, Fury warriors, and Arms warriors.
In EQ2 all it does really is increase your overall productiveness and efficiency of what your class's basic premise is; which in reality is not customization at all, but rather upgrading.
This is not really true. Its depends on the class. The mystic and inquisitor AA lines add significant melee damage.The certainly change the purview of a mystic in a similar way shadow spec does for a WoW priest and in addition EQ2 had two separate kinds of AA's and lets you go down multiple trees.
Many other AA offer new special abilities as well.
Finally your ciriticism of why EQ2's AA don't offer much difference is also true of a large portion of WoW talents.
Overall all they offer about they same amount of bonus efficacy and playstyle change ups. But EQ2 offers two dimension to it and WoW only offers one.
It sure does have a lot of customization for looks though, no doubt about that.
like you said a tank is a tank a dps is a dps, why WoWs talent system is good because take the paladin for exampleA holy paladin talent spec cant take worth crap but if you take the talents and make a protection speced paladin it can become a true tank.
Now take a priest
A priest can be a main healer or if talent changes it can become a fierce dpser.
Come on. Do you people even play CoX? There are all kinds of high DPS tank specs.And there are far far far far more possible specs in Cox than there are in WoW. Add in inventions and the possiblies go from an order of magnitude more specs to two orders of magnitude.
Have you ever even heard of an offender build? I mean seriously this is just rank ignorance. The variations in gameplay of just the defender Archetype could probably encompass half the classes in WoW. The defender Archetype in CoX utterly destroys the WoW priest class in different gameplay options offered. I would go so far as to say the defnder archetype alone has more variations in gameply than WoW's entire class system including the talents.
This post is staggeringly wrong. It actually hurts my brain.
Anyone saying a CoX Archetype has less variation than any class in WoW, whatever class it is, is so far wrong it boggles my mind. I am tempted to say this is one of the most blatantly incorrect things I have seen on these forums. And that says a lot.
I was going to bring up CoX Archetypes, but aren't they a different animal? Not Skill Based, but are they really Class Based? I'd say "Ability Set" based.
But if you consider them class based, then yes, CoX trumps WoW.
It is its own animal. Something entirely new. I don't even know what to call. But its pretty damn impressive.
I've never been so impressed by an RPG design, and I have the 1 edition Monster Manual 2 memorized. Not that 1ed D&D was designed amazingly, but I have read alot of rpg stuff.
With WoW you could put your talent points wherever you like. if you just randomly distributed your points you'd be gimped, there are countless forums and posts about theorycrafting the talent trees. Some go so far as to have graphs and optimum dps with a system of attaching a value to a particular attribute or statistic.
In reality there looks like there are lots of choices to be made with regards to talent trees, but in truth there are 3 as others have said a PvE, PvP and raid. There are slight variations in what talents to pick, but the core skills are chosen, because the ones NOT chosen plain suck.
If players could pick talents without severely gimping their character then you could argue that WoW has true customisation. Who in their sane mind would deliberately gimp their character just to be different? Yes there are small tweaks, options, you could put a point here instead of there, but there are so many players out there that the bad options are debunked usually very quickly.
So to sum up, there aren't many options, because a lot of the talents suck the big one forcing the majority to pick a "build". Blizzard could remove the option of talents altogether and just give 3 subclasses per class raid, pve and pvp. Would it matter in raid or pve? No. In PvP? Well any serious PvPer would want to optimise their setup anyway so it would probably be fairly similar. In arenas provided the game doesn't drag on, most PvP builds would own a more PvE one although you'd be surprised what great players can do.
No annoying animated GIF here!
It sure does have a lot of customization for looks though, no doubt about that.
like you said a tank is a tank a dps is a dps, why WoWs talent system is good because take the paladin for exampleA holy paladin talent spec cant take worth crap but if you take the talents and make a protection speced paladin it can become a true tank.
Now take a priest
A priest can be a main healer or if talent changes it can become a fierce dpser.
Come on. Do you people even play CoX? There are all kinds of high DPS tank specs.And there are far far far far more possible specs in Cox than there are in WoW. Add in inventions and the possiblies go from an order of magnitude more specs to two orders of magnitude.
Have you ever even heard of an offender build? I mean seriously this is just rank ignorance. The variations in gameplay of just the defender Archetype could probably encompass half the classes in WoW. The defender Archetype in CoX utterly destroys the WoW priest class in different gameplay options offered. I would go so far as to say the defnder archetype alone has more variations in gameply than WoW's entire class system including the talents.
This post is staggeringly wrong. It actually hurts my brain.
Anyone saying a CoX Archetype has less variation than any class in WoW, whatever class it is, is so far wrong it boggles my mind. I am tempted to say this is one of the most blatantly incorrect things I have seen on these forums. And that says a lot.
I was going to bring up CoX Archetypes, but aren't they a different animal? Not Skill Based, but are they really Class Based? I'd say "Ability Set" based.
But if you consider them class based, then yes, CoX trumps WoW.
No I don't consider them the same. They really are not. And that is why they are called Archetypes instead of classes. And just another part of the staggering ignorance.The problem is they are comparing a WoW tank to CoX tanks and they simply have no clue. I had to compare classes to archetypes. Explaining the archetype concept would take too long.
It is enough to show that there statement is completely wrong though. Tanks can tank and tanks can do very good damage, they have far more different ways to protect themselves and far more different ways to do damage. Trying to say the warrior class and its talent spec trumps the tank archetype is simply preposterous given, that the WoW warrior has three ways to go and the Tanks AT has more than 20 and both the CoX and WoW versions can DPS or Tank or Both.
Then add in inventions with all the other customization and special procs and we are talking about prot /fury/arms versus 20 different power set combination expanding into 100 different builds.
Is the comparison fair? No an AT is far more flexible than a class. That is why this post is so staggeringly wrong it hurts my brain. If they even had an inkling of what they were talking about they would never have tried to make this comparison. Its flabbergasting.
Just because you can do something does mean its a good idea. Just because some skills system may have millions of variations, if only 5 are used by 90% of the population. Then really its customization is seriously flawed.
This doesn't apply to EvE skills i don't feel like explaining why suffice it to say they are highly differentiated and specialied , but it certainly is a concern for many other skill based games.
Sure in theory they have good coustomization, but in practice how many have really been better than WoW?
I beat if someone went through it in details you might find many of these skill based are roughly equivalent to WoW in practice. By that I mean what a large portion of people actually use.
"True" character customization? No
WoW, in its talent system, does give the "appearance" of customization. But unfortunately it also requires you to fit a certain build in order to play the chosen classes.
So, WoW gave the option of some customization, and count it as "TRUE" customization? Not by a long shot.
As to the topic of respec, it must be mention that the whole idea of character customization is NOT just to be different than other players, but to FIT YOUR PLAY-STYLE...
If you have to respec into another build in order to play with other, you are forced to change your own play-style which is NOT a true character customization. If the design makes you respec into certain builds in order to play with others, it is a BAD design, and cannot be said to be TRUE character customization.
Besides, if a player is changing his/her play-style, it should take time since it require the players to learn something new about their character's capability. If you are forced to respec into a build where you do not truly understand the idea and the style such build is made for, you will screw up big in group, and you will probably not be invited back to the same group... Bad design overall (IMO)...
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
True to some extend, but it depend on the design of other related systems (grouping, play-style, dungeon, etc...)
Just because you can do something does mean its a good idea. Just because some skills system may have millions of variations, if only 5 are used by 90% of the population. Then really its customization is seriously flawed.
Again, it is due to the design of PvE, PvP, grouping, etc... in order to have freedom in customization, the systems should be design to allow such. (No preset builds for dungeon, no preset teams to do PvE/PvP/raid... etc)
This doesn't apply to EvE skills i don't feel like explaining why suffice it to say they are highly differentiated and specialied , but it certainly is a concern for many other skill based games.
Sure in theory they have good coustomization, but in practice how many have really been better than WoW?
I beat if someone went through it in details you might find many of these skill based are roughly equivalent to WoW in practice. By that I mean what a large portion of people actually use.
You did mention a very good point in the fact that many skill-based system function just like WoW's talent system, but it isn't just because the design is flawed, but it is because of the other systems that are linked to the character customization system. (Like PvE, PvP, Raid, Grouping, Dungeon just to name a few)...
When the design breaks away the need to have a set template, you will have people build their characters their own way, and maybe some has similar idea and build the characters the same way, but due to the way they play their character, it should bring a difference into the game...
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
True to some extend, but it depend on the design of other related systems (grouping, play-style, dungeon, etc...)
Just because you can do something does mean its a good idea. Just because some skills system may have millions of variations, if only 5 are used by 90% of the population. Then really its customization is seriously flawed.
Again, it is due to the design of PvE, PvP, grouping, etc... in order to have freedom in customization, the systems should be design to allow such. (No preset builds for dungeon, no preset teams to do PvE/PvP/raid... etc)
This doesn't apply to EvE skills i don't feel like explaining why suffice it to say they are highly differentiated and specialied , but it certainly is a concern for many other skill based games.
Sure in theory they have good coustomization, but in practice how many have really been better than WoW?
I beat if someone went through it in details you might find many of these skill based are roughly equivalent to WoW in practice. By that I mean what a large portion of people actually use.
You did mention a very good point in the fact that many skill-based system function just like WoW's talent system, but it isn't just because the design is flawed, but it is because of the other systems that are linked to the character customization system. (Like PvE, PvP, Raid, Grouping, Dungeon just to name a few)...
When the design breaks away the need to have a set template, you will have people build their characters their own way, and maybe some has similar idea and build the characters the same way, but due to the way they play their character, it should bring a difference into the game...
Well yes, its is possible that skill system is not flawed in this way and I believe that for the most part EvE is an example of this.But many people act like skill systems are automatically free and amazingly customizable. But from a practical standpoint the really is just an illusion if 90% of that variation is not something very many people ever use.
I mean I can strap the carcass of a dead and decaying smelly moose onto the top of my car and spray it with skunk musk and then cover it in maggots. However I don't want to, nor do very many sane people want to this. At least I hope they don't/
My main point here is that if we look at the current body of skill based games from UO onwards, I bet that a majority of them do not really show much that more variety in use than WoW.
Is it possible for skill based games to accomplish more variety? Yes. Not gonna argue with you there. But the question is how many really have? And I think the answer may be "very few".
Haha this is so radicilous. TRUE change? Those 1-40 points? You still use the same spells from level 10, and then you ocasionally get a new spell from talents that does not really change your killing tactic at all. The system doesn't allow you to be a healer with stealth, or a mage in plate, or an unarmed martial artist. The decision is so small, you either focus on fire or ice as a mage. Or you focus on dps or tank as a warrior. That's so limited and linear how can someone call it a good character customization? There are few cookie cutters classes with their builds that are nowhere near each other. You can't combine and you can't make something unique. HOW can someone call this the best character customization is beyond me.
There are games that allow you to be whatever you want to be. You can be a main healer, wear a leather armor, hide in shadows and make poisons for your deadly arrows at the same time. Or you can be a a little clumsy mage wearing a plate mail reanimating dead bodies into skeletons. THERE ARE GAMES OUT THERE THAT ALLOW IT.
REALITY CHECK
Every game will have its min/max theorycrafters who will come up with optimal builds. WoW has this, even EVE has it --> there are optimal skill loadouts for any number of things in EVE, don't kid yourself. Any system that is set up can and will be rigged by the players to min/max it, it's just the way human beings are. That has no impact, however, on whether a skill system is good, or allows for customization. If you want to min/max, in *any* game you will be limited in your customization choices because you will be convinced that "some choices suck" -- and for certain things in the game, undoubtedly they so suck. That's the case for every game.
Having said that, what Billzard has done with WoW is, in effect, to make sub-classes through use of the talent trees. This is not a bad design because it gives players the ability to experience different kinds of play with one character. A protection paladin plays entirely differently from a retribution paladin (lolret aside); same for shadow vs. holy priest, feral v. balance druid, etc. The system mostly works pretty well, even if players are "forced" into one spec if they want to min/max their character for a certain setting.
Having said that however, how do you think it relates to the OP's main point that WoW is the only MMORPG with TRUE character customization? I believe as hes been pointed out many times in this thread by many people that this is simply not the case.....
i dont know where ppl see all that customization
Certainly it's incorrect to state it that way -- usually statements with words like "only" and "true" in respect of subjective things are wrong. So yes I think that the OP is inaccurate.
Just because you can do something does mean its a good idea. Just because some skills system may have millions of variations, if only 5 are used by 90% of the population. Then really its customization is seriously flawed.
This doesn't apply to EvE skills i don't feel like explaining why suffice it to say they are highly differentiated and specialied , but it certainly is a concern for many other skill based games.
Sure in theory they have good coustomization, but in practice how many have really been better than WoW?
I beat if someone went through it in details you might find many of these skill based are roughly equivalent to WoW in practice. By that I mean what a large portion of people actually use.
1- In a skill based title, a crafter can be a "pure" crafter
2- In a skill based title, a pvper can skillup purely from DUELs
3- In a skill based title, in order to be the best swordsman I just practice swinging my sword. Impossible in WoW you would have to level up to max cap
4- In a skill-based RPG, many allow you to learn ANY skill on one character. Impossible in WoW
5- Most skill-based systems lack Tactical Transparency. For example, in a Class based game you know a Mage on sight. in most skill-based titles, you have no idea what your enemy is capable of
6- Skill-based systems are freeform. You can pursue any skill at anytime.
The ideal skill-based system hasn't really been presented in mmorpgs so far either
This topic is void until the OP tries his hands at Anarchy online.. Sure graphics suck blah blah blah blah, game is old blah BUT the customization is unmatched.. UNmatched as to say that VERY class can use ANY standard weapon! They added perks that even allow FURTHER customization with skills.. It is wild and kind of complicated.. IF you think that WoW has the "best" customization my friend you owe it to yourself to try more than just EQ2 (wow clones)...
Even eve has that deep customization.. It may take time, but you will notice that your playing experience changes GREATLY depending on how you develop your character and what skills you take rather than what you START off with..
Explore a little before giving ultimate praise... OR... umm..
NULL TOPIC due to lack of research..
Just because you can do something does mean its a good idea. Just because some skills system may have millions of variations, if only 5 are used by 90% of the population. Then really its customization is seriously flawed.
This doesn't apply to EvE skills i don't feel like explaining why suffice it to say they are highly differentiated and specialied , but it certainly is a concern for many other skill based games.
Sure in theory they have good coustomization, but in practice how many have really been better than WoW?
I beat if someone went through it in details you might find many of these skill based are roughly equivalent to WoW in practice. By that I mean what a large portion of people actually use.
1- In a skill based title, a crafter can be a "pure" crafter. Can Be but do many people do it? Also You could easily make a skill game with separate crafting skill progression. In fact WoW crafting is skill/use base in advancent.
2- In a skill based title, a pvper can skillup purely from DUELs. Only if it has use based advance and use based advancement has a number of significant problems. Such the the first generation of true sucoessors to UO (EvE and Neocron) do not sue it at all or modify it.
3- In a skill based title, in order to be the best swordsman I just practice swinging my sword. Impossible in WoW you would have to level up to max cap. Again you are talking about use based advance not a skill based game. And this has no impact of customization. Just how you achieve the customization.
4- In a skill-based RPG, many allow you to learn ANY skill on one character. Impossible in WoW. Is this even a good idea? EvE theoetically could have a character that had every skill but its impossible due to the fact that they put too many skills in to ever actually get to even with a character made at release. They do not want anyone to get every skill, even though they like the idea of skill deversification as a reward.
5- Most skill-based systems lack Tactical Transparency. For example, in a Class based game you know a Mage on sight. in most skill-based titles, you have no idea what your enemy is capable of
If we call Guild Wars a class based game then this is not true. In fact Guild Wars makes it far far more uncertain than any skill based game. I have said in this thread that i think GW is a special case but either way it illustrates that a locked down hard to change spec is what really ruins this. Because you only need to see a person once in a skill based game to know, where as in GW you NEVER know. Clearly real freeform customization like what GW has offers more and better tactical transparency and it has nothing to do with class OR skills.
6- Skill-based systems are freeform. You can pursue any skill at anytime.
Can yes, but do many people do take advantage of it? If they aren't your system is not actually diverse. It is not offering people a wealth of options with good trade offs. It may offer a wealth of options but that doesn't mean it offers a wealth of GOOD options.
The ideal skill-based system hasn't really been presented in mmorpgs so far either
The only thing I will say to this is that their talent system isn't perfect for two reasons.
The first reason is that they actually managed to break talent builds.
For example priest were the only classes that could feasibly tri-spec (putting an average of 9 points in each tree). Their flexibility was so high that even with the mismatch of holy and shadow they had about 9 viable talent builds But when patch 2.0 came out Blizzard tuned the trees in a way that reduced priests viable options to about 5 builds and obviously trispeccing wasn't feasible anymore.
The second reason is by their own standards the talent system isn't perfect. They want all trees to be viable for pvp or pve. They are getting their with rogues but the vast majority of classes are no where near to achieving this goal.
I will say that even though they aren't anywhere near to reaching that goal it is obvious they are trying to reach it and they could reach it once the increase the level cap one more time after Wrath. But their biggest problem is that even if they do reach it that achievement won't last for long because of the way classes' abilities scale with gear.
Certain abilities scale faster than others and as a result abilities that were crappy with greens become viable or the best abilities to use with high end purples. Blizzard intentionally designed the classes this way so players have the joy of constantly experimenting with their class.
Unfortuneately beause of the way disproportionate scaling works Blizzard has to constantly mess around with coefficients and other values to prevent fast scaling abilities from being powerful forever. This leads to nerfs that fundamentally change how classes work. This requirement for fundamental change means that any perfection achieved from the talent tree retuning will always be very short lived.
From what I've seen of WoW, characters still all fit into the archetypal system of most MMOs. Frankly, I think DDO's cusomization is far superior. Feats, skills, enhancements, stats, and most importantly the ability to multiclass means you can make a fighter/bard mix unlike any other who's a completely viable and powerful character. Melee casters, battle clerics, and on and on.
(using warrior class as an example)
no way on wow all warriors have the same skills etc. warriors only different slightly from different tallents points. in game like guild wars because there are so many skills, and a limited skill bar and because you can have secondary classees. there are endless types of warriors you can be. guildwars is the best, so far.
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