Try hosting a Ron Paul march at the Superbowl this year, and see how people react. I suspect that you'd hear many of the same arguments that we've heard in this thread already .There's a distinct line that seperates "being involved" and "being involved intelligently". Put simply, there's a time and place for everything.
My argument still stands undebated that if the march were in support of pedophilia, Hitler, Islam, the Patriot act, internet control, or a number of other things that people have strong opinions about, a number of the same people who support this march would be against it. And, to address the whole comment of "Well, other people break immersion, so we can too!"- just because there are other instances where people and things are in the wrong doesn't mean that more wrong things and people should be allowed. This a very basic principal of order, and something that simply can not be refuted.
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com And overall bitter old man.
Try hosting a Ron Paul march at the Superbowl this year, and see how people react. I suspect that you'd hear many of the same arguments that we've heard in this thread already .There's a distinct line that seperates "being involved" and "being involved intelligently". Put simply, there's a time and place for everything. My argument still stands undebated that if the march were in support of pedophilia, Hitler, Islam, the Patriot act, internet control, or a number of other things that people have strong opinions about, a number of the same people who support this march would be against it. And, to address the whole comment of "Well, other people break immersion, so we can too!"- just because there are other instances where people and things are in the wrong doesn't mean that more wrong things and people should be allowed. This a very basic principal of order, and something that simply can not be refuted.
So a video game is like the SuperBowl? Companies spending millions for a 20 second ad? Give me a break. MMOs are for whatever the people playing them want them to be. Don't want to participate, then go do your own thing somewhere else in game.
Making a comparison to illegal activities and despot dictators doesnt help your cause either. It still sounds like you are whining. Using terms like "undebated" and "can not be refuted" just shows that your argument is weak and needs the same language that preachers use to convey unrealistic concepts. Nice try though.
This was a great thing. I really dont get people that are whining about this. We live in a time when politicians are wanting to intrude into our privacy and are being influenced by big media more than by people. Games are being pressured to conform to some peoples social mores. Ron Paul is for small government and for government staying out of peoples lives. Gamers should support this type of candidate. I have switched my registration so I can vote for Paul and I have sent his campaign money. We get what we deserve and if you want government to say what you can or cant play then just stay uninvolved.
No It wasnt a good thing. Being INVOLVED doesnt include the time I use to relax .................
And Im not an idiot, it was no more than a ploy to gain nieve voters who think HE really feels them. Stay out of my damn games!
MMORPG's and politics dont mix! You lost a potential voter Ron Paul , let that be a lesson to any othe rpolitician trying do the same thing in the future!
Here is the deal though, If you want politicians out of your games, then support ones that want government out of our lives. This event was on just one server and in just the place the people were at. people should be excited about having some change. Stop being complacent sheep who support the status quo by your inaction and apathy. Do you know which candidates support net nuetrality? Do you even know what that is? These things affect gamers. Out of the hundreds of hours we spend "immersed" in our MMO fantasy worlds is it really such an inconvenience?
My argument still stands undebated that if the march were in support of pedophilia, Hitler, Islam, the Patriot act, internet control, or a number of other things that people have strong opinions about, a number of the same people who support this march would be against it.
And now they have no right to say anything. They just screwed Blizzard over, with Blizzards' help by allowing it. Anyone who is prohibited from "marching for their cause", no matter if it's political, religious, fanatical, or just plain insane, they can sue the crap out of Blizzard for discrimination.
Congratulations to all you "patriotic" Ron Paul supporters for creating an open avenue for the ruination of a game people play for enjoyment, people who pay to play the game who do not share your view or care about your politics but apparently had no say in the matter.
And congratulations to Blizzard, for adding one more thing for the other game companies to add to the prohibited list in their EULAs. Too bad it's too late for you to do the same.
Wait 'til jack Thompson gets wind of the first lawsuit against Blizzard from the KKK or Greenpeace or PETA or the 700club or.........and the list goes on. Or when Jack Thompson or someone else who shares his views of gaming sees political/religious/fanatical marches occuring frequently in the game.
Hope your all happy with yourselves. Hope Ron Paul likes it to, because if this shit all happens, it will backlash on him. And he can thank all of you dedicated supporters.
Zorvan, you have verbalized my concerns perfectly. These idiots have opened a pandora's box through selfish, pandering attention whoring for a political candidate who doesn't even know they exist as individuals. They have tainted a leisure activity with their real life political beliefs because, much like Ron Paul himself, they do not know where the line between reality and fantasy is drawn. I just hope NAMBLA, the KKK, or any other fringe distasteful group picks this up as their recruitment vehicle of choice so Blizzard realizes the can of worms they opened by supporting this gross display of idiocy.
I'm amazed that anyone would support Ron Paul. Not that it matters since he could never get elected and represents a viewpoint that has as much popularity as communism. I would probably lose my job if Paul got elected because he wants to destroy almost every federal agency in the U.S. Most presidents try to create jobs, Paul wants to to hundreds of thousands out on the streets. I cant figure out what he offers that's appealing to anyone except the super rich. All of his viewpoints are based on his faith based devotion to extreme right-wing laissez-faire capitalism. The man's also a religious nut.
Considering he raised over 20 million dollars in the fourth quarter, I wouldn't say he could never get elected. Slim currently, but his support is growing faster than just about any candidate out there. His viewpoints are a lot more popular than communism. He's the only Republican that wants out of Iraq asap, and he wants to follow the constitution and protect civil liberties, which are sadly disappearing. Something like 70% of Americans want out of Iraq, he more than any other candidate will deliver on that message.
Sadly, with the way our economy is going, the only "safe" jobs will be government and low paying service orientated jobs. Ron Paul wants to lower taxes by withdrawing troops from overseas bases and eliminating some federal agencies. This places less tax burden on people so they can live more prosperously. He wants to create jobs by eliminating these parasitic free trade agreements that are destroying our manufacturing base. Without manufacturing, we can't trade with other countries and we have to buy all our products from china for instance. Not much reason to hold on to a currency when you can't buy anything with it. Even oil, which has been sold exclusively in the past in US Dollars, is now being sold in other currencies. Further eliminating the need to keep dollars. The trade deficit and the nation debt further hurt our economy. He understands this, unlike most politicians, and wants to create and protect jobs. So many middle class jobs are being outsourced to 3rd world countries and are being replaced with low paying service jobs, why should federal government jobs be safe when they aren't even protecting the jobs of average American citizens?
Even the poor get taxed, and often at much higher percentages than the rich. Warren Buffet recently testified to Congress that taxes on the rich should be increased; he gets taxed percent-wise lower than his maids. Eliminating the federal income tax (by eliminating costly, controlling, and inefficient federal bureaucracies) certainly has it's appeal to lower, and upper class citizens. And support for Ron Paul isn't solely from the fiscal conservatives. /rant end lol
Something important that all Americans in particular should retain.
" If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. "
Here is the deal though, If you want politicians out of your games, then support ones that want government out of our lives.
Another award winning comment from Yukkione. The ironic thing about this comment is, you're basically saying that the Ron Paul march in World of Warcraft is either the current government's fault, everyone's fault but Ron Paul's, or my fault - yet the blame for this march can be placed solely on Ron Paul and Ron Paul's supporters. Either that or you are so lacking in sense as to propose the threat of "We're going to harass you until you vote for who we want you to vote for!!"
Honestly, I'm ashamed that uninformed and uneducated people can be registered to vote in America, because it's obvious that people who would make statements like these know little or nothing about either democracy or liberty, and would rather choose to delude themselves into thinking that anyone that opposes their slanted views are "sheep", rather than maybe question the "company line" that they seem to follow.
The sad, honest fact is, most people that mouth on like this know less about politics than the average politically aware voter. Most of these people have never participated in any real world protests or rallies, let alone lead them themselves, and I'm sure even fewer have helped campaign for or finance a politician, beyond maybe this year's president, yet they STILL assume that the people that oppose their views are somehow magically less politically active than they are. I imagine that they think that just because they grew up sitting in their couches and doing nothing up until 07 that everyone must have done the same.
Get off your high horse, put away your soap box, and go read a book. Maybe then you'll learn enough to be able to make arguments that are a little better than "Everyone who's against me is Sheeple!" Oh, and while you're at it, do us all a favor and think before you say things, because quite honestly, I'd rather not be subjected to any more silly statements such as "If you want politicians out of your games, then support ones that want government out of our lives. "
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com And overall bitter old man.
Even the poor get taxed, and often at much higher percentages than the rich. Warren Buffet recently testified to Congress that taxes on the rich should be increased; he gets taxed percent-wise lower than his maids. Eliminating the federal income tax (by eliminating costly, controlling, and inefficient federal bureaucracies) certainly has it's appeal to lower, and upper class citizens. And support for Ron Paul isn't solely from the fiscal conservatives. /rant end lol Something important that all Americans in particular should retain. " If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. "
~Naom Chomsky
I don't know where you get your information from but the Rich pay more taxes then anyone, and actually they pay the majority of the taxes to the government
Try hosting a Ron Paul march at the Superbowl this year, and see how people react. I suspect that you'd hear many of the same arguments that we've heard in this thread already .There's a distinct line that seperates "being involved" and "being involved intelligently". Put simply, there's a time and place for everything. My argument still stands undebated that if the march were in support of pedophilia, Hitler, Islam, the Patriot act, internet control, or a number of other things that people have strong opinions about, a number of the same people who support this march would be against it. And, to address the whole comment of "Well, other people break immersion, so we can too!"- just because there are other instances where people and things are in the wrong doesn't mean that more wrong things and people should be allowed. This a very basic principal of order, and something that simply can not be refuted.
So a video game is like the SuperBowl? Companies spending millions for a 20 second ad? Give me a break. MMOs are for whatever the people playing them want them to be. Don't want to participate, then go do your own thing somewhere else in game.
Making a comparison to illegal activities and despot dictators doesnt help your cause either. It still sounds like you are whining. Using terms like "undebated" and "can not be refuted" just shows that your argument is weak and needs the same language that preachers use to convey unrealistic concepts. Nice try though.
Ron Paul 08!
Okay, let me break things down into simple terms for you - maybe then you'll be able to understand things :
The Superbowl is an event that people pay to enjoy. People spend money so that they can go out and enjoy the game.
World of Warcraft is a fantasy that people pay to enjoy. People spend money so that they can go out and enjoy the game.
If you were to have paying Ron Paul supporters start a Ron Paul rally in the stands at the Superbowl, it would litterally be the same thing as Ron Paul supporters starting a rally at Iron Forge in World of Warcraft. Really, the only difference between WoW and the Superbowl is the fact that the Superbowl doesn't have a free trial.
Now that I've got that out of the way, I'll address your statement of "Making a comparison to illegal activities and despot dictators doesnt help your cause either". To start with, I didn't make a comparison between the Ron Paul march and the things listed. I simply stated people like you would be against marches like these if the marches were in support of things that you were opposed to. Beyond that, not all of the things I listed were illegal, or involving tyrants - you chose to selectively nit pick what I was saying, and ignore the things that were said. I suspect that you did so because, as mentioned in the very post that you quoted, you really have nothing with which to debate the arguments that I've presented.
Last, as far as my diction goes - using words that involve more than the basic vernacular is a sign of intelligence and education. No where does the fact that I actually use my brain indicate that my argument is "weak", and, in fact, the fact that you chose to ignore my argument and focus only on the words within it proves exactly the opposite - it proves that you can't debate what I've said. I've presented you with an open and unopposed argument, and rather than put your money where your mouth is and prove my argument wrong, you instead chose to create completely asinine comments about "preachers" and "whining"
Grow up, read a book, and come back to me when you have something to say that's worth being said. Until you do that, you'll only be making yourself look bad.
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com And overall bitter old man.
Just an amusing aside. Ron Paul finished 5th amongst republican candidates in Iowa. That's less than Huckabee (who won), Romney, Thompson, and McCain. Should've farted in the wind, would've pissed off fewer people and would've had just as much influence on the outcome..
Just an amusing aside. Ron Paul finished 5th amongst republican candidates in Iowa. That's less than Huckabee (who won), Romney, Thompson, and McCain. Should've farted in the wind, would've pissed off fewer people and would've had just as much influence on the outcome..
Don't bother. They'll just come in here and call us ignorant sheeple, since apparently only Ron Paul supporters know what the country needs. The rest of us are just uninformed and getting in their way.
Just an amusing aside. Ron Paul finished 5th amongst republican candidates in Iowa. That's less than Huckabee (who won), Romney, Thompson, and McCain. Should've farted in the wind, would've pissed off fewer people and would've had just as much influence on the outcome..
Don't bother. They'll just come in here and call us ignorant sheeple, since apparently only Ron Paul supporters know what the country needs. The rest of us are just uninformed and getting in their way.
Gotta say, this post not only made me smile, but it's so true. Couldn't have said it better myself, good job Zorvan.
Originally posted by Tenebrion My argument still stands undebated that if the march were in support of pedophilia, Hitler, Islam, the Patriot act, internet control, or a number of other things that people have strong opinions about, a number of the same people who support this march would be against it.
They may be against the views of the march but they would have little say other than petitioning a GM to prevent it. If it was against the harassment policy (which some of your topics mentioned are), then they would have a case. If it wasn't, than the march would just have to be ignored by whomever didn't want to see it. If it went the way the Ron Paul march did, you could easily avoid it by going afk for a few minutes, stretch your legs, refill your glass of water, and maybe stare out the window to relax your eyes a bit.
Originally posted by Tenebrion And, to address the whole comment of "Well, other people break immersion, so we can too!"- just because there are other instances where people and things are in the wrong doesn't mean that more wrong things and people should be allowed. This a very basic principal of order, and something that simply can not be refuted.
This comment is just horrible. You start off with a paraphrase, but you quote as if that was actually stated somewhere. Not only is it an inaccurate rewrite of what was said, but it completely changes the meaning of what was said. From that initial mistake, the rest of the blather is even more pointless.
In World of Warcraft, if you're NOT on a ROLEPLAY server, then don't be surprised when the real world interjects itself into the game on a REGULAR basis.
Blah blah blah Ron Paul is the second coming, blah blah blah... Xeno also stated I was uninformed, so I placed a number of videos, pictures and articles that are not normally discussed on tv or in most schools to show that the things you think are facts aren't necessarily true because you are taught they are. For example, that "free energy" doesn't exist, or that man and dinosaurs are seperated by millions of years, techically speaking I made no assertion about evolution, just the timetable of man and dinosaurs existence. You placed a number of annoying videos, etc. in order to swamp the argument, much as creationist before you have. It's a pitiful tactic. Even if someone took the time to dispute each point it would make no difference. You're working from a different set of rules for debate and they change by the minute. I've seen your type before, and truly, you are annoying. (I don't personally believe in evolution since the countless intermediate forms Darwin claimed would exist if it were true don't, and the precursor forms of animals like the horse, for example, have fossils side by side in the same strata of earth indicating they all lived at the same time and could therefore be their own unique, complete species. Also they have found countless fossils of animals like the horseshoe crab and various frogs and spiders that they claim are as much as 300 million years old and still look identical to the species today. Variation? Yes. Adaptation? Yes. Evolution? No) Of course you don't believe in Evolution. Because you completely fail to grasp it. You've deluded yourself into thinking that you are an expert on the subject when you are a rank novice at best. And where do you go to get your information on the subject? Not from scientific, peer-reviewed sources, not those who actually work in the field, but instead you go to creationists who believe the world is only 6000 years old and have the answer, "God diddit" for everything. You accuse others of agendas, but you fail to see how you fit into the agenda of others. Yeah, you're so above it all, you super brain you. Even evolutionists struggle to maintain the party line: "Despite the bright promise that paleontology provides a means of ‘seeing' evolution, it has presented some nasty difficulties for evolutionists, the most notorious of which is the presence of ‘gaps' in the fossil record. Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them..." (David B. Kitts, Ph.D. -- Zoology, Head Curator, Department of Geology, Stoval Museum, and well-known evolutionary paleontologist. Evolution, Vol. 28, Sept. 1974. Hey look everyone, a quote mine! And it's only 30+ years old! How amazing. Hey, Brainiac, you do realize there are more recent papers on the subject than this, right? Start with dates with years that begin with a 2 (not the 3rd century, either), and maybe, just maybe, you'll be on the right track. For those interested in this beautiful quote mine, go here for more information. This is a common and blatantly corrupt tactic of creationists. Honesty is not their forte. Another quote mine tactic would be like this (using Brainiacs own quote from above): I... personally believe in evolution since the countless intermediate forms Darwin claimed would exist... were true Seriously, you fail at logic and your tactics suck.
I then in my third post addressed D732's misstatement about Newton's 3rd law of Motion by listing it and citing my source. I then clarified my point about what we are told about all this order coming from the chaos of a Big Bang which defies the law of entropy ( AND technically the Law of the conservation of matter which states that matter is neither created nor destroyed. In other words where did the initial explosive matter really come from?) Fact is the Big Bang theory is no fact and was somewhat "exploded" itself some time ago: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CEFDD173DF930A35752C0A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2 All this order from chaos? hehe... Anyway, on to the fun part of this block of ignorance. First, the Big Bang Theory does not predict where the material came from, not even a little bit. Nope. You might as well call the Theory of Evolution a failure because it doesn't tell you why that sauce on a Big Mac is just so darn tasty. You see, again, you are a rank novice with only a degree in internet research and agendas. How dare you misuse science for your own ignorant agenda. Secondly, your article is from 1991. Again, there have been numerous papers on this subject of late. Dude, there have been major breakthroughs just LAST YEAR. Not to mention that this isn't even a scientific paper, it's a dumbed down version for the public. Seriously, read and stay current on the science. Don't read some old article and then swing it like a baseball bat at all new research. Science does NOT work like that. Oh, but it does if you have an agenda.... Finally my first post to you,Ten. "and of course the requisite parrot". First of all you misquote me for the amusement of some (actually not a problem aside from the misquoting part , I have no problem being made fun of) then make conclusions that in no way reflected anything I was saying and put me into some sort of preconceived cube that makes a good pinata for the majority opinion. This makes it appear as though you are attacking based on someone else's ire with me. "Parroting" their position without disputing mine on the merits of your own arguments. I then go on to state that I don't care what people say, its their mouth, its their opinion, I defend their right to express it. No, I think Parrot is the perfect word for you, how convenient that it is mentioned here. The things you list are obviously things that you really want to fit into your worldview so badly that you will ignore any opposing evidence... if only you were more honest.
Oh well, keep drinking the Koolaid Brainiac.. it's tasty!
- LC
Whew. As I read your responses I don't see any contradictory evidence, are we taking your side because you said it? You complain my articles are old, the theory of evolution came from a guy in 1836 who went to the galapagos islands, saw 14 different species of finch and postulated they all came from a single creature, a microbe. If he said bird, sure, but a microbe, thats a big jump. Also, Darwin had neither MRIs or understanding of DNA, so what he had to say should not be taken as gospel truth, especially in the light of the current fossil record. Also re quote:
"Kitts outlines several different hypotheses as to why the fossil record appears the way it does, among them Punctuated Equilibrium, but at no point does he abandon evolution as an explanation for what is seen.
- Jon (Augray) Barber"
Do you know what punctuated equilibrium is? It is the supposed phenomenon of 1 species SPONTANEOUSLY giving rise to another. I.e. a lizard mother having a bird baby. Once again a theory rooted in pseudoscience. Never observed. Defies genetics and yet in print as a plausible explanation. If a creationist used it to support Creation he would be laughed out of the room.
Regarding the existence of large clumpy matter in the cosmos and the distances involved, this has not been answered. If it has please show me. I'm willing to read it for sure. There is this new theory that whatever the initial matter was, it spun and undulated and the clumps supposedly came from this rotation and undulation, but as you can see a lot of things having to do with a piece of cosmic real estate quadrillions and quadrillions of light years across is basically gonna be comprised of a lot of theory especially since many things we think of as constants change over immense distances, dimensions and speeds. Its funny though how I refer to one point about how the initial matter the Big bang supposedly came from defies the law of conservation of matter (technically) and you respond with "The Big Bang Theory doesn't refer to where the matter came from". Thats part of the point, a theory based on something that another law in physics states shouldn't really just "be" there. Any answer to the numerous questions surrounding many theories in many subjects would end speculation, but the fact is often times new theories just create new questions.
Also the fact is politics play a HUGE role in science because money plays a HUGE role in science. Especially Federal funding. This fact makes the stuff you hear biased, for example the concept of global warming as a function of human activity is based on computer models funded by a U.N. project and has resulted in countless taxes and eco-friendly changeover legislation that equates to more money in govts hands and yet anoher means of controlling people. Unfortunately their contention that "scientists agree" is totally false and recently hundreds of scientists (meteorolgists included like the founder of the Weather channel) have come out saying we are not the cause of global warming and that its part of the natural rhythm of the planet's weather as illustrated by the Medieval Warming Period and the Little Ice Age. Whats my point? You're the one drinking the Kool-Aid if you believe everything you are told without looking for yourself mon ami.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?" (Psalm 94:16)
Btw, march looked fun, one of the cutest, most inspiring WOW videos I've ever seen, and as I said was not the big deal people made it out to be, but the expression of free speech and the spirit of revolution was, as I said, very inspiring.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?" (Psalm 94:16)
Originally posted by Reborn17 Btw, march looked fun, one of the cutest, most inspiring WOW videos I've ever seen, and as I said was not the big deal people made it out to be, but the expression of free speech and the spirit of revolution was, as I said, very inspiring.
While I will be voting for Ron Paul, and I do agree supporters had every right to march, this doesn't fall under freedom of expression. I don't think you're specifically saying that, but you're kind of eluding to it by saying "..the expression of free speech..". While freedom of expression can be exercised on private property, the rules that govern the property are limiting factors. In this case, Blizzard's posted policies are the limiting factors. In the case of the participants of the march, they were not breaking any rules, and they had contacted a GM before the march. IMO, they had just as much right to do what they did as anyone else that logged on that night and didn't violate Blizzard's policies.
Btw, march looked fun, one of the cutest, most inspiring WOW videos I've ever seen, and as I said was not the big deal people made it out to be, but the expression of free speech and the spirit of revolution was, as I said, very inspiring.
While I will be voting for Ron Paul, and I do agree supporters had every right to march, this doesn't fall under freedom of expression. I don't think you're specifically saying that, but you're kind of eluding to it by saying "..the expression of free speech..". While freedom of expression can be exercised on private property, the rules that govern the property are limiting factors. In this case, Blizzard's posted policies are the limiting factors. In the case of the participants of the march, they were not breaking any rules, and they had contacted a GM before the march. IMO, they had just as much right to do what they did as anyone else that logged on that night and didn't violate Blizzard's policies.
Well said.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?" (Psalm 94:16)
This "march" is NOT an "expression of free speech" as some of you are calling it. "Free speech" does not apply to World of Warcraft, or any OTHER online game, for that matter, that is why there is an EULA and ToS stating what names you can use for your characters and what behavior can be considered harassment, etc.
If you want "free speech" we'll end up with Bible Thumpers trolling the AH for "converts" and such like. Living in a democracy and playing an online game, are two different things. Apart from the fact, that WoW is not a game that is played by only Americans. Geez. I swear that Americans have GOT to be ridiculously arrogant to think that they are the only "law of the land." The U.S. doesn't make the "laws" for Blizzard's games.....Blizzard does. This is why guilds that were made to be "gay friendly" were shut down....don't you all remember THAT big controversy?
Go gather your Ron Paul supporters on some online forum made for politicizing and stay the heck OUT of games that have EULA's that prohibit that sort of thing....for a REASON.
Whew. As I read your responses I don't see any contradictory evidence, are we taking your side because you said it? The evidence is SCIENCE. You are apparently aware of the internet and have most likely come into contact with those who will take the time to explain to a creationist how many ways you are wrong -- I, however, do not have that sort of patience. I've encountered your type for years and refuse to sit down and explain every nuance of evolution. Why? Because it will do absolutely no good. Instead, and much funner at that, is the enjoyment I gain from picking apart your arguments and poor rhetoric. If you are truly interested in evolution, which you are not, please refer to: Science. It should only take you several lifetimes to digest every nuance in every discipline. Get back to me when you've done this. In the meantime, I will rely on those greater than you, and obviously more sane, for my information. But, pretend you're an expert. It is amusing. And really, is the WoW forum really the place? You complain my articles are old,
Yes, I do. Because they are. You mine deep when you need a quote, and it shows your dishonesty on a subject that is ever changing as new information is assimilated. The fact that it can change probably makes you uncomfortable. Which is probably why you turn to unchanging mythology for your facts.
the theory of evolution came from a guy in 1836 who went to the galapagos islands, saw 14 different species of finch and postulated they all came from a single creature, a microbe. If he said bird, sure, but a microbe, thats a big jump. Also, Darwin had neither MRIs or understanding of DNA, so what he had to say should not be taken as gospel truth, especially in the light of the current fossil record. You do realize that the science of evolution has grown beyond the writings of Darwin, correct? I'm just checking, because you seem to think that it is the only source for information that scientists have to go on. The research of evolution is so far beyond Darwin's ideas, I dare say that it is simply a footnote in the history of the field. Attacking Darwin is a bit pathetic. As to the fossil record, it supports Evolution. For more information, please refer to: Science. Also re quote: "Kitts outlines several different hypotheses as to why the fossil record appears the way it does, among them Punctuated Equilibrium, but at no point does he abandon evolution as an explanation for what is seen. - Jon (Augray) Barber" So, you admit your original quote mine was false? Thank you. But still relying on Kitt? Wow, I should've waited to say thank you. Your dishonesty and foul tactics know no bounds. Please attempt to research newer papers in the field. There are subscriptions to scientific databases that might assist you in this endeavor. Do you know what punctuated equilibrium is? It is the supposed phenomenon of 1 species SPONTANEOUSLY giving rise to another. I.e. a lizard mother having a bird baby. A lizard mother having a bird baby is a creationist exaggeration. But that is a common tactic among your type. Make something be what it is not so it will appear foolish to those who trust you. You're a clown for making such an assertion, and there isn't a scientific book in existence that will state what you have mentioned. But don't worry, some creationist, somewhere, read your reply and punched his fist into the air and said, "You tell'em!" There, that make you feel better? If a creationist used it to support Creation he would be laughed out of the room. If a creationist had ANY proof, whatsoever, it would be a true miracle. Just one theory would be nice. Instead, Evolution has to depend on a meager MOUNTAIN of evidence to support its own scientific theory. How sad, eh? Regarding the existence of large clumpy matter in the cosmos and the distances involved, this has not been answered. If it has please show me. I'm willing to read it for sure. There is this new theory that whatever the initial matter was, it spun and undulated and the clumps supposedly came from this rotation and undulation, but as you can see a lot of things having to do with a piece of cosmic real estate quadrillions and quadrillions of light years across is basically gonna be comprised of a lot of theory especially since many things we think of as constants change over immense distances, dimensions and speeds. Ummm... ramble much..? Its funny though how I refer to one point about how the initial matter the Big bang supposedly came from defies the law of conservation of matter (technically) and you respond with "The Big Bang Theory doesn't refer to where the matter came from". Thats part of the point, a theory based on something that another law in physics states shouldn't really just "be" there. Any answer to the numerous questions surrounding many theories in many subjects would end speculation, but the fact is often times new theories just create new questions. You're going to stick to the idea that the Big Bang Theory fails because it doesn't attempt to postulate where the matter came from? Again, it is not dependent on such information. Please, pretend that it is, I'm sure that will help you with your 'god in the gaps' mentality that you so require. And yes, it is fine that new theories create new questions. Kind of cool, eh? Yeah, science is da bomb. Also the fact is politics play a HUGE role in science because money plays a HUGE role in science. Especially Federal funding. This fact makes the stuff you hear biased, for example the concept of global warming as a function of human activity is based on computer models funded by a U.N. project and has resulted in countless taxes and eco-friendly changeover legislation that equates to more money in govts hands and yet anoher means of controlling people. Unfortunately their contention that "scientists agree" is totally false and recently hundreds of scientists (meteorolgists included like the founder of the Weather channel) have come out saying we are not the cause of global warming and that its part of the natural rhythm of the planet's weather as illustrated by the Medieval Warming Period and the Little Ice Age. Whats my point? You're the one drinking the Kool-Aid if you believe everything you are told without looking for yourself mon ami. Egads, now we're on to global warming? What have we missed in your attempt to muddy the subject as much as possible? Should we also throw in abortion, hollow moon theory, and a movie review? And again, we see the tactics of the creationists: Throw it out, maybe something will stick, and then I can call a win even if I lose 9,999,999 out of 10,000,000. Good for you.
Please, please, please... read a few books on how to argue properly. This is really bad stuff you regurgitate from your creationist web buddies. Maybe check out more from talkorigins.org before you post quotes or misrepresent evolution.
And, to address the whole comment of "Well, other people break immersion, so we can too!"- just because there are other instances where people and things are in the wrong doesn't mean that more wrong things and people should be allowed. This a very basic principal of order, and something that simply can not be refuted.
This comment is just horrible. You start off with a paraphrase, but you quote as if that was actually stated somewhere. Not only is it an inaccurate rewrite of what was said, but it completely changes the meaning of what was said. From that initial mistake, the rest of the blather is even more pointless.
In World of Warcraft, if you're NOT on a ROLEPLAY server, then don't be surprised when the real world interjects itself into the game on a REGULAR basis.
Reading comprehension skill -1.
It's pretty obvious that there's no real quote in the above block of text, and as such nothing was being treated as a direct quote. However, there was an accurate paraphrase of an attitude that's been expressed multiple times in this thread, and an accurate response to that attitude. It wouldn't take a genius to glean this kind of information from my post - only a person with a very basic understanding of communication.
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com And overall bitter old man.
My argument still stands undebated that if the march were in support of pedophilia, Hitler, Islam, the Patriot act, internet control, or a number of other things that people have strong opinions about, a number of the same people who support this march would be against it.
And now they have no right to say anything. They just screwed Blizzard over, with Blizzards' help by allowing it. Anyone who is prohibited from "marching for their cause", no matter if it's political, religious, fanatical, or just plain insane, they can sue the crap out of Blizzard for discrimination.
Congratulations to all you "patriotic" Ron Paul supporters for creating an open avenue for the ruination of a game people play for enjoyment, people who pay to play the game who do not share your view or care about your politics but apparently had no say in the matter.
And congratulations to Blizzard, for adding one more thing for the other game companies to add to the prohibited list in their EULAs. Too bad it's too late for you to do the same.
Wait 'til jack Thompson gets wind of the first lawsuit against Blizzard from the KKK or Greenpeace or PETA or the 700club or.........and the list goes on. Or when Jack Thompson or someone else who shares his views of gaming sees political/religious/fanatical marches occuring frequently in the game.
Hope your all happy with yourselves. Hope Ron Paul likes it to, because if this shit all happens, it will backlash on him. And he can thank all of you dedicated supporters.
Yay! The Ron Paul march will bring down WoW!
FYI - this isn't the first cause march in World of Warcraft. This isn't even the 10th. There have been dozens of these. Notably, I remember a march for gay rights, at least one political protest of some form, and a funeral.
So far WoW is still standing. I find your apocolyptic predictions absurd and amusing.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
Comments
Try hosting a Ron Paul march at the Superbowl this year, and see how people react. I suspect that you'd hear many of the same arguments that we've heard in this thread already .There's a distinct line that seperates "being involved" and "being involved intelligently". Put simply, there's a time and place for everything.
My argument still stands undebated that if the march were in support of pedophilia, Hitler, Islam, the Patriot act, internet control, or a number of other things that people have strong opinions about, a number of the same people who support this march would be against it. And, to address the whole comment of "Well, other people break immersion, so we can too!"- just because there are other instances where people and things are in the wrong doesn't mean that more wrong things and people should be allowed. This a very basic principal of order, and something that simply can not be refuted.
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com
And overall bitter old man.
Making a comparison to illegal activities and despot dictators doesnt help your cause either. It still sounds like you are whining. Using terms like "undebated" and "can not be refuted" just shows that your argument is weak and needs the same language that preachers use to convey unrealistic concepts. Nice try though.
Ron Paul 08!
And Im not an idiot, it was no more than a ploy to gain nieve voters who think HE really feels them. Stay out of my damn games!
Plain and simple ........................
MMORPG's and politics dont mix! You lost a potential voter Ron Paul , let that be a lesson to any othe rpolitician trying do the same thing in the future!
Here is the deal though, If you want politicians out of your games, then support ones that want government out of our lives. This event was on just one server and in just the place the people were at. people should be excited about having some change. Stop being complacent sheep who support the status quo by your inaction and apathy. Do you know which candidates support net nuetrality? Do you even know what that is? These things affect gamers. Out of the hundreds of hours we spend "immersed" in our MMO fantasy worlds is it really such an inconvenience?
And now they have no right to say anything. They just screwed Blizzard over, with Blizzards' help by allowing it. Anyone who is prohibited from "marching for their cause", no matter if it's political, religious, fanatical, or just plain insane, they can sue the crap out of Blizzard for discrimination.
Congratulations to all you "patriotic" Ron Paul supporters for creating an open avenue for the ruination of a game people play for enjoyment, people who pay to play the game who do not share your view or care about your politics but apparently had no say in the matter.
And congratulations to Blizzard, for adding one more thing for the other game companies to add to the prohibited list in their EULAs. Too bad it's too late for you to do the same.
Wait 'til jack Thompson gets wind of the first lawsuit against Blizzard from the KKK or Greenpeace or PETA or the 700club or.........and the list goes on. Or when Jack Thompson or someone else who shares his views of gaming sees political/religious/fanatical marches occuring frequently in the game.
Hope your all happy with yourselves. Hope Ron Paul likes it to, because if this shit all happens, it will backlash on him. And he can thank all of you dedicated supporters.
Zorvan, you have verbalized my concerns perfectly. These idiots have opened a pandora's box through selfish, pandering attention whoring for a political candidate who doesn't even know they exist as individuals. They have tainted a leisure activity with their real life political beliefs because, much like Ron Paul himself, they do not know where the line between reality and fantasy is drawn. I just hope NAMBLA, the KKK, or any other fringe distasteful group picks this up as their recruitment vehicle of choice so Blizzard realizes the can of worms they opened by supporting this gross display of idiocy.
Considering he raised over 20 million dollars in the fourth quarter, I wouldn't say he could never get elected. Slim currently, but his support is growing faster than just about any candidate out there. His viewpoints are a lot more popular than communism. He's the only Republican that wants out of Iraq asap, and he wants to follow the constitution and protect civil liberties, which are sadly disappearing. Something like 70% of Americans want out of Iraq, he more than any other candidate will deliver on that message.
Sadly, with the way our economy is going, the only "safe" jobs will be government and low paying service orientated jobs. Ron Paul wants to lower taxes by withdrawing troops from overseas bases and eliminating some federal agencies. This places less tax burden on people so they can live more prosperously. He wants to create jobs by eliminating these parasitic free trade agreements that are destroying our manufacturing base. Without manufacturing, we can't trade with other countries and we have to buy all our products from china for instance. Not much reason to hold on to a currency when you can't buy anything with it. Even oil, which has been sold exclusively in the past in US Dollars, is now being sold in other currencies. Further eliminating the need to keep dollars. The trade deficit and the nation debt further hurt our economy. He understands this, unlike most politicians, and wants to create and protect jobs. So many middle class jobs are being outsourced to 3rd world countries and are being replaced with low paying service jobs, why should federal government jobs be safe when they aren't even protecting the jobs of average American citizens?
Even the poor get taxed, and often at much higher percentages than the rich. Warren Buffet recently testified to Congress that taxes on the rich should be increased; he gets taxed percent-wise lower than his maids. Eliminating the federal income tax (by eliminating costly, controlling, and inefficient federal bureaucracies) certainly has it's appeal to lower, and upper class citizens. And support for Ron Paul isn't solely from the fiscal conservatives. /rant end lol
Something important that all Americans in particular should retain.
" If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. "
~Naom Chomsky
Another award winning comment from Yukkione. The ironic thing about this comment is, you're basically saying that the Ron Paul march in World of Warcraft is either the current government's fault, everyone's fault but Ron Paul's, or my fault - yet the blame for this march can be placed solely on Ron Paul and Ron Paul's supporters. Either that or you are so lacking in sense as to propose the threat of "We're going to harass you until you vote for who we want you to vote for!!"
Honestly, I'm ashamed that uninformed and uneducated people can be registered to vote in America, because it's obvious that people who would make statements like these know little or nothing about either democracy or liberty, and would rather choose to delude themselves into thinking that anyone that opposes their slanted views are "sheep", rather than maybe question the "company line" that they seem to follow.
The sad, honest fact is, most people that mouth on like this know less about politics than the average politically aware voter. Most of these people have never participated in any real world protests or rallies, let alone lead them themselves, and I'm sure even fewer have helped campaign for or finance a politician, beyond maybe this year's president, yet they STILL assume that the people that oppose their views are somehow magically less politically active than they are. I imagine that they think that just because they grew up sitting in their couches and doing nothing up until 07 that everyone must have done the same.
Get off your high horse, put away your soap box, and go read a book. Maybe then you'll learn enough to be able to make arguments that are a little better than "Everyone who's against me is Sheeple!" Oh, and while you're at it, do us all a favor and think before you say things, because quite honestly, I'd rather not be subjected to any more silly statements such as "If you want politicians out of your games, then support ones that want government out of our lives. "
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com
And overall bitter old man.
http://www.brianpowellmusic.com/californiataxes.html
You can also reference in dave ramseys book the total money makeover in regards to how much the rich get taxed.
So a video game is like the SuperBowl? Companies spending millions for a 20 second ad? Give me a break. MMOs are for whatever the people playing them want them to be. Don't want to participate, then go do your own thing somewhere else in game.Making a comparison to illegal activities and despot dictators doesnt help your cause either. It still sounds like you are whining. Using terms like "undebated" and "can not be refuted" just shows that your argument is weak and needs the same language that preachers use to convey unrealistic concepts. Nice try though.
Ron Paul 08!
Okay, let me break things down into simple terms for you - maybe then you'll be able to understand things :
The Superbowl is an event that people pay to enjoy. People spend money so that they can go out and enjoy the game.
World of Warcraft is a fantasy that people pay to enjoy. People spend money so that they can go out and enjoy the game.
If you were to have paying Ron Paul supporters start a Ron Paul rally in the stands at the Superbowl, it would litterally be the same thing as Ron Paul supporters starting a rally at Iron Forge in World of Warcraft. Really, the only difference between WoW and the Superbowl is the fact that the Superbowl doesn't have a free trial.
Now that I've got that out of the way, I'll address your statement of "Making a comparison to illegal activities and despot dictators doesnt help your cause either". To start with, I didn't make a comparison between the Ron Paul march and the things listed. I simply stated people like you would be against marches like these if the marches were in support of things that you were opposed to. Beyond that, not all of the things I listed were illegal, or involving tyrants - you chose to selectively nit pick what I was saying, and ignore the things that were said. I suspect that you did so because, as mentioned in the very post that you quoted, you really have nothing with which to debate the arguments that I've presented.
Last, as far as my diction goes - using words that involve more than the basic vernacular is a sign of intelligence and education. No where does the fact that I actually use my brain indicate that my argument is "weak", and, in fact, the fact that you chose to ignore my argument and focus only on the words within it proves exactly the opposite - it proves that you can't debate what I've said. I've presented you with an open and unopposed argument, and rather than put your money where your mouth is and prove my argument wrong, you instead chose to create completely asinine comments about "preachers" and "whining"
Grow up, read a book, and come back to me when you have something to say that's worth being said. Until you do that, you'll only be making yourself look bad.
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com
And overall bitter old man.
Just an amusing aside. Ron Paul finished 5th amongst republican candidates in Iowa. That's less than Huckabee (who won), Romney, Thompson, and McCain. Should've farted in the wind, would've pissed off fewer people and would've had just as much influence on the outcome..
Don't bother. They'll just come in here and call us ignorant sheeple, since apparently only Ron Paul supporters know what the country needs. The rest of us are just uninformed and getting in their way.
Don't bother. They'll just come in here and call us ignorant sheeple, since apparently only Ron Paul supporters know what the country needs. The rest of us are just uninformed and getting in their way.
Gotta say, this post not only made me smile, but it's so true. Couldn't have said it better myself, good job Zorvan.
They may be against the views of the march but they would have little say other than petitioning a GM to prevent it. If it was against the harassment policy (which some of your topics mentioned are), then they would have a case. If it wasn't, than the march would just have to be ignored by whomever didn't want to see it. If it went the way the Ron Paul march did, you could easily avoid it by going afk for a few minutes, stretch your legs, refill your glass of water, and maybe stare out the window to relax your eyes a bit.
This comment is just horrible. You start off with a paraphrase, but you quote as if that was actually stated somewhere. Not only is it an inaccurate rewrite of what was said, but it completely changes the meaning of what was said. From that initial mistake, the rest of the blather is even more pointless.
In World of Warcraft, if you're NOT on a ROLEPLAY server, then don't be surprised when the real world interjects itself into the game on a REGULAR basis.
so...
Oh well, keep drinking the Koolaid Brainiac.. it's tasty!
- LC
Whew. As I read your responses I don't see any contradictory evidence, are we taking your side because you said it? You complain my articles are old, the theory of evolution came from a guy in 1836 who went to the galapagos islands, saw 14 different species of finch and postulated they all came from a single creature, a microbe. If he said bird, sure, but a microbe, thats a big jump. Also, Darwin had neither MRIs or understanding of DNA, so what he had to say should not be taken as gospel truth, especially in the light of the current fossil record. Also re quote:
"Kitts outlines several different hypotheses as to why the fossil record appears the way it does, among them Punctuated Equilibrium, but at no point does he abandon evolution as an explanation for what is seen.
- Jon (Augray) Barber"
Do you know what punctuated equilibrium is? It is the supposed phenomenon of 1 species SPONTANEOUSLY giving rise to another. I.e. a lizard mother having a bird baby. Once again a theory rooted in pseudoscience. Never observed. Defies genetics and yet in print as a plausible explanation. If a creationist used it to support Creation he would be laughed out of the room.
Regarding the existence of large clumpy matter in the cosmos and the distances involved, this has not been answered. If it has please show me. I'm willing to read it for sure. There is this new theory that whatever the initial matter was, it spun and undulated and the clumps supposedly came from this rotation and undulation, but as you can see a lot of things having to do with a piece of cosmic real estate quadrillions and quadrillions of light years across is basically gonna be comprised of a lot of theory especially since many things we think of as constants change over immense distances, dimensions and speeds. Its funny though how I refer to one point about how the initial matter the Big bang supposedly came from defies the law of conservation of matter (technically) and you respond with "The Big Bang Theory doesn't refer to where the matter came from". Thats part of the point, a theory based on something that another law in physics states shouldn't really just "be" there. Any answer to the numerous questions surrounding many theories in many subjects would end speculation, but the fact is often times new theories just create new questions.
Also the fact is politics play a HUGE role in science because money plays a HUGE role in science. Especially Federal funding. This fact makes the stuff you hear biased, for example the concept of global warming as a function of human activity is based on computer models funded by a U.N. project and has resulted in countless taxes and eco-friendly changeover legislation that equates to more money in govts hands and yet anoher means of controlling people. Unfortunately their contention that "scientists agree" is totally false and recently hundreds of scientists (meteorolgists included like the founder of the Weather channel) have come out saying we are not the cause of global warming and that its part of the natural rhythm of the planet's weather as illustrated by the Medieval Warming Period and the Little Ice Age. Whats my point? You're the one drinking the Kool-Aid if you believe everything you are told without looking for yourself mon ami.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"
(Psalm 94:16)
Btw, march looked fun, one of the cutest, most inspiring WOW videos I've ever seen, and as I said was not the big deal people made it out to be, but the expression of free speech and the spirit of revolution was, as I said, very inspiring.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"
(Psalm 94:16)
While I will be voting for Ron Paul, and I do agree supporters had every right to march, this doesn't fall under freedom of expression. I don't think you're specifically saying that, but you're kind of eluding to it by saying "..the expression of free speech..". While freedom of expression can be exercised on private property, the rules that govern the property are limiting factors. In this case, Blizzard's posted policies are the limiting factors. In the case of the participants of the march, they were not breaking any rules, and they had contacted a GM before the march. IMO, they had just as much right to do what they did as anyone else that logged on that night and didn't violate Blizzard's policies.
so...
While I will be voting for Ron Paul, and I do agree supporters had every right to march, this doesn't fall under freedom of expression. I don't think you're specifically saying that, but you're kind of eluding to it by saying "..the expression of free speech..". While freedom of expression can be exercised on private property, the rules that govern the property are limiting factors. In this case, Blizzard's posted policies are the limiting factors. In the case of the participants of the march, they were not breaking any rules, and they had contacted a GM before the march. IMO, they had just as much right to do what they did as anyone else that logged on that night and didn't violate Blizzard's policies.
Well said.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"
(Psalm 94:16)
This "march" is NOT an "expression of free speech" as some of you are calling it. "Free speech" does not apply to World of Warcraft, or any OTHER online game, for that matter, that is why there is an EULA and ToS stating what names you can use for your characters and what behavior can be considered harassment, etc.
If you want "free speech" we'll end up with Bible Thumpers trolling the AH for "converts" and such like. Living in a democracy and playing an online game, are two different things. Apart from the fact, that WoW is not a game that is played by only Americans. Geez. I swear that Americans have GOT to be ridiculously arrogant to think that they are the only "law of the land." The U.S. doesn't make the "laws" for Blizzard's games.....Blizzard does. This is why guilds that were made to be "gay friendly" were shut down....don't you all remember THAT big controversy?
Go gather your Ron Paul supporters on some online forum made for politicizing and stay the heck OUT of games that have EULA's that prohibit that sort of thing....for a REASON.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Please, please, please... read a few books on how to argue properly. This is really bad stuff you regurgitate from your creationist web buddies. Maybe check out more from talkorigins.org before you post quotes or misrepresent evolution.
- LC
One-thousand pink-haired gnomes for Ron Paul.
I think I'll resubscribe.
Also, pix plz.
(Recalls several hundred pink-haired gnomes for "Blackrock down" on the Argent Dawn server.)
Trump 2016
This comment is just horrible. You start off with a paraphrase, but you quote as if that was actually stated somewhere. Not only is it an inaccurate rewrite of what was said, but it completely changes the meaning of what was said. From that initial mistake, the rest of the blather is even more pointless.
In World of Warcraft, if you're NOT on a ROLEPLAY server, then don't be surprised when the real world interjects itself into the game on a REGULAR basis.
Reading comprehension skill -1.
It's pretty obvious that there's no real quote in the above block of text, and as such nothing was being treated as a direct quote. However, there was an accurate paraphrase of an attitude that's been expressed multiple times in this thread, and an accurate response to that attitude. It wouldn't take a genius to glean this kind of information from my post - only a person with a very basic understanding of communication.
Content Writer for RTSGuru.com
And overall bitter old man.
vote martuk
And now they have no right to say anything. They just screwed Blizzard over, with Blizzards' help by allowing it. Anyone who is prohibited from "marching for their cause", no matter if it's political, religious, fanatical, or just plain insane, they can sue the crap out of Blizzard for discrimination.
Congratulations to all you "patriotic" Ron Paul supporters for creating an open avenue for the ruination of a game people play for enjoyment, people who pay to play the game who do not share your view or care about your politics but apparently had no say in the matter.
And congratulations to Blizzard, for adding one more thing for the other game companies to add to the prohibited list in their EULAs. Too bad it's too late for you to do the same.
Wait 'til jack Thompson gets wind of the first lawsuit against Blizzard from the KKK or Greenpeace or PETA or the 700club or.........and the list goes on. Or when Jack Thompson or someone else who shares his views of gaming sees political/religious/fanatical marches occuring frequently in the game.
Hope your all happy with yourselves. Hope Ron Paul likes it to, because if this shit all happens, it will backlash on him. And he can thank all of you dedicated supporters.
Yay! The Ron Paul march will bring down WoW!FYI - this isn't the first cause march in World of Warcraft. This isn't even the 10th. There have been dozens of these. Notably, I remember a march for gay rights, at least one political protest of some form, and a funeral.
So far WoW is still standing. I find your apocolyptic predictions absurd and amusing.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson