Personally, I couldn't care any less if people consider RMT's as cheating or not.
What I do care about is, much like levels in an MMO seperate a community into "pockets" of players, RMT's will divide players further into who is willing to buy their way through a game and who isn't.
I feel that the community in that game will suffer because of this.
There's nothing like fuzzy logic and moral relativism to wriggle one's way out of anything. I suppose if I said my hobby were painting, but, damn, I just don't have the hours of time required to paint so instead I bought a paint-by-numbers kit, I could still say my hobby is painting, right? How about if I pay my next-door-neighbor's daughter to paint it for me? I'd still sign it at the end to make it my work. That's okay, right? You're too busy with RL to spend time "achieving" everything in a game? Then don't. EIther change the way you play and what you think you have to accomplish in the game, or find something else to do. That's the nature of life. Trade-offs, balances, change. Too many people want it both ways. You wanna cheat? Then cheat--just don't expect everyone else to praise you for it or accept it. And sure as hell don't expect everyone to agree that it's okay because you don't have the time they do. They don't have the time you do for other things--does that make it okay if they get promoted over you in a job? How about they get your house and you live in a dive apartment? It's okay, right? After all, they just don't have the time to devote to those RL pursuits.
*shrug* I dont care if anyone accepts. I do what I want, and so should everyone else. Life is too brief for so called "morality". Its a friggin game, its for fun, not some religion. If you pay someone to write you a novel and he sells it to you so you can pblish it under your name, thats entirely your thing. Entire LEGIONS of people work like this. Do you want to make them unemployed to satisfy YOUR personal moral??
We should all do what we want? Tell that to someone the next time they decide they don't like your face and want to rearrange it. In the modern world, this is against the law, I can run to a police station if that happens to me. I can do nothing tho, if that someone only do not like my face and is sitting at home planning to deface me. In the barbarian world, oh well good luck. Find a big stick and smash him first.
Despite your faux machismo and ignorant (as in, lacking in experience) attitude, society doesn't work that way. There are rules for a very good reason: without them, there is no society and life comes down to the biggest, baddest person does what they want...to you. The only rule is the law, and if the game allows it, then you have nothing to say any more.
The point of a game, as you so clearly seem to miss, is not to get to the end. See, you don't "win" an mmo. So skipping to the end of the game is akin to reading only the last three pages of a novel and thinking smugly to yourself, "I read that book." You could possibly "win" a game of chess by picking up your king and stabbing your opponent in the eye with it. But that's not playing by the rules you so disdain, is it? I suppose you'd call it a win--at least on the forums. I have a strong feeling that in RL, you are not so nonchalent about rules. The point of a game, is I pay for my account and I play it my way. None of your damn business. Only the game (represented by the GM) has anything to say on this issue. I remember letting my sister's baby beat me in a chess game by simply letting him sweep all pieces off the board. We both are happy, period. That is a game. Learn to enjoy your share of the game, and stop your jealous remarks. And stop speculating about my RL. WE are only anonymous icons in a message board talking about games. We will never meet in RL. You do not have to resort to personal attacks to vent your anger.
But go ahead, keep lying to yourself. I'm sure you'll meet plenty of people in life who think the same way and spend all their time screwing one another over so they can "win." Come on, mind your own business. You are not the sheriff, you are another player, no more than that.
So, how many accounts do you have, Elikal?
There were no personal attacks. I was simply point out that in RL, you do follow rules--even though here you try to claim that you do not. The difference? In RL, the punishments are so severe that violating the rules is not worthwhile. In a game, all you get is the disdain of people who actually play the game and possibly getting banned...from a game that you're cheating in anyway (so clearly you don't care much about the game, so it's not much of a punishment).
Got any more accounts to hide behind?
Apply lemon juice and candle flame here to reveal secret message.
This debate can also be framed as Cheating versus Illegal. Cheating is broadly defined as gaining an advantage over others using ways that was not intended by the game developers.
So buying gold provides an advantage because a player can buy and do things he otherwise would not be able to do from normal gaming activities. However in many games, the developer states in their End User License Agreement that this tool is so damaging to their product that it allows them the right to cancel a players subscription without reimbursement.
What about guides or walkthrough websites? As Ralph commented on, these provide an advantage of speed. One knows where to go, how to prepare and how to overcome obstacles the developer intended to provide for players. Same goes for the concept of powerlevelling. Is this cheating?
Buying an account from another player is a risk You may send money to another and never see them again or the account is not what was advertised. The developer cannot police this because the account has not broken any rules, just the owner has changed. Cheating only oneself out of a gaming experience. Or simply enjoying the real fun of the game, the end part. MMO Design problem??
What about macros? Custom Made UI programs? Some of these UI programs list everything you can dream about. Did developers intend players to know every detail and statistic of their challanges?
An interesting debate on the heels of baseballs steroid debacle. Society has deemed enhancing drugs as cheating. What about eyeglasses or contacts? Also realize that many players were taking steroids, yet only a few broke records. Is there not some skill involved in any game regardless of the path you choose to win?
Cheating is, in the end, violating the spirit of the rules. But the spirits of games evolve, for better or worse, and not always in ways we like (I reference again the tale of Monopoly, and how it changed from an anti-landlord game into a game celebrating greed). It isn’t the designers doing it, usually — rather, it’s designers conceding ground under the weight of player pressure and market pressure. You may call it pragmatism or you may call it caving. Either way, those of us left behind will always sit and bitch about what used to be a purer, nobler sort of game.
The emphasis is his, and it's the crux of his post. The spirit of an MMO is partly the result of the enforced rules of the game, but also partly the result of the way the players choose to interact with the game. The former is a reflection of the designers. The latter is a reflection of the players.
In the early days of MUDs, players used the ethic of playing their character cold. They didn't use guides or hints or fact sheets. By the spirit of the game it was implicitly agreed that nobody did that. The important point here is that the result of embracing that ethic was that the players got a certain experience out of the game. That experience cannot be achieved in games where using outside information is in the spirit of the game. It's not important whether you like it one way or the other. What's important is that the spirit that the players embrace will impact the sort of experience that they can get from the game.
We can all argue over whether or not paying for the use of things in a game is cheating or not. We can argue over whether using Thottbot is a legitimate way to solve a quest. It really doesn't matter because we all have our own 'spirit of gaming' in mind when we play the game. We refer to those who violate our spirit of gaming as 'cheaters', those who think we violate their spirit of gaming as 'whiners' and those who play the game our way as 'players'.
I believe that the spirit of gaming today is a reflection of where the players have taken it. I think that gaming has been taken right out of the world of gaming and entertainment and into that ugly realm populated by professional sports. It is highly contentious, businesslike and ultimately not very entertaining.
In closing, I'll note that Raph has an annoying habit of using the word 'evolve' in places where he should use 'change'. It sounds better to say 'evolve' because it suggests progress. The spirit of gaming isn't progressing anywhere. It's just changing.
edit: changed slur from 'uptight jerks' to 'whiners'
I wonder if Raph considers it cheating to market a game based upon content it doesn't actually have? *Cough, Jedi in SWG at release not coded* Yeah Raph, thanks for another brilliant insight from the god of all fatuous hypocrites.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Technicaly, none of it is cheating, but, the moment you start to look at it from a technical side and start looking for definitions of what cheating is you're already there and what you are doing is justifying cheating.
There's nothing like fuzzy logic and moral relativism to wriggle one's way out of anything. I suppose if I said my hobby were painting, but, damn, I just don't have the hours of time required to paint so instead I bought a paint-by-numbers kit, I could still say my hobby is painting, right? How about if I pay my next-door-neighbor's daughter to paint it for me? I'd still sign it at the end to make it my work. That's okay, right? You're too busy with RL to spend time "achieving" everything in a game? Then don't. EIther change the way you play and what you think you have to accomplish in the game, or find something else to do. That's the nature of life. Trade-offs, balances, change. Too many people want it both ways. You wanna cheat? Then cheat--just don't expect everyone else to praise you for it or accept it. And sure as hell don't expect everyone to agree that it's okay because you don't have the time they do. They don't have the time you do for other things--does that make it okay if they get promoted over you in a job? How about they get your house and you live in a dive apartment? It's okay, right? After all, they just don't have the time to devote to those RL pursuits.
*shrug* I dont care if anyone accepts. I do what I want, and so should everyone else. Life is too brief for so called "morality". Its a friggin game, its for fun, not some religion. If you pay someone to write you a novel and he sells it to you so you can pblish it under your name, thats entirely your thing. Entire LEGIONS of people work like this. Do you want to make them unemployed to satisfy YOUR personal moral??
We should all do what we want? Tell that to someone the next time they decide they don't like your face and want to rearrange it. In the modern world, this is against the law, I can run to a police station if that happens to me. I can do nothing tho, if that someone only do not like my face and is sitting at home planning to deface me. In the barbarian world, oh well good luck. Find a big stick and smash him first.
Despite your faux machismo and ignorant (as in, lacking in experience) attitude, society doesn't work that way. There are rules for a very good reason: without them, there is no society and life comes down to the biggest, baddest person does what they want...to you. The only rule is the law, and if the game allows it, then you have nothing to say any more.
The point of a game, as you so clearly seem to miss, is not to get to the end. See, you don't "win" an mmo. So skipping to the end of the game is akin to reading only the last three pages of a novel and thinking smugly to yourself, "I read that book." You could possibly "win" a game of chess by picking up your king and stabbing your opponent in the eye with it. But that's not playing by the rules you so disdain, is it? I suppose you'd call it a win--at least on the forums. I have a strong feeling that in RL, you are not so nonchalent about rules. The point of a game, is I pay for my account and I play it my way. None of your damn business. Only the game (represented by the GM) has anything to say on this issue. I remember letting my sister's baby beat me in a chess game by simply letting him sweep all pieces off the board. We both are happy, period. That is a game. Learn to enjoy your share of the game, and stop your jealous remarks. And stop speculating about my RL. WE are only anonymous icons in a message board talking about games. We will never meet in RL. You do not have to resort to personal attacks to vent your anger.
But go ahead, keep lying to yourself. I'm sure you'll meet plenty of people in life who think the same way and spend all their time screwing one another over so they can "win." Come on, mind your own business. You are not the sheriff, you are another player, no more than that.
So, how many accounts do you have, Elikal?
There were no personal attacks. I was simply point out that in RL, you do follow rules--even though here you try to claim that you do not. The difference? In RL, the punishments are so severe that violating the rules is not worthwhile. In a game, all you get is the disdain of people who actually play the game and possibly getting banned...from a game that you're cheating in anyway (so clearly you don't care much about the game, so it's not much of a punishment).
Got any more accounts to hide behind?
You do not need to make it personal, nor speculative. I am not Elikal, I have a lot of personal post with very different views. If you do not agree with my views, discuss it. Calling me Elikal does not help us understand each other anyway deeper.
If you read my words, I DO NOT ENDORSE RMT. I just mean to say, if RMT is endorsed by the game developer, we all shut up. IF a game does not permit RMT, RMT is illegal, subjected to legal persecution, fine or imprisonment. Anyone doing that is liable to police knock-knock. Do it at your own risk (your does not mean anyone specific, just a your).
I just pointed out 1 thing, RMT technically does not affect anyone else's gameplay, basically its jealousy and zeal for drops that is affected. Why do you care if anyone got a purple drop. Its a game for christ's sake. That purple drop is just a digital display.
Of couse, we all have our own views about what should be, but that is personal views, not enforceable. If we do not want RMT, we can avoid all those RMT servers, like SoE exchange servers, and play games that have some measure of GM efforts against gold farmers. I am somewhat pessimistic about the war against gold farmers, and so all I can do is ignore all the gold-farmer spams, turn off general chats, turn on anon status so that gold farmers cannot find me from LFG or /who listing, and I play my own game. What else can I do. Like mosquitoes, these gold farmers will be there one way or another.
One other member here has a very interesting illustration. RMT actually changes the distribution of very rare items. Without RMT, the lucky guy, the duper/cheater, the 24/7 player and the few player knowing where the drops are, will enjoy the rare drops and dictate who gets it. They will sell it for 50000million plats in the game, and no one but themselves can afford it. With RMT, the circle of ownership is expanded to those willing and able to buy the rares with $$$. Is that necessarily evil? I do not want to pass my judgment. I just want to tell you that lucky guys, dupers and 24/7s are always there, and there is no reason why they can dicatate who gets what loot in the game.
Like the old Indian wisdom goes, some evil is inevitable, like the mosquitoes on the back of the cow, sweeping them off with its tail, the cow opens a spot on its back for the next batch of mosquitoes. Oh if you have a good idea on how to kill all gold farmers, spell it out. Don't tell me that we all should stop buying gold. That is almost nonsense. We should all refrain from breaking the laws? So what? almost all our political leaders are corrupted, to start with.
Cheating is, in the end, violating the spirit of the rules. But the spirits of games evolve, for better or worse, and not always in ways we like (I reference again the tale of Monopoly, and how it changed from an anti-landlord game into a game celebrating greed). It isn’t the designers doing it, usually — rather, it’s designers conceding ground under the weight of player pressure and market pressure. You may call it pragmatism or you may call it caving. Either way, those of us left behind will always sit and bitch about what used to be a purer, nobler sort of game.
The emphasis is his, and it's the crux of his post. The spirit of an MMO is partly the result of the enforced rules of the game, but also partly the result of the way the players choose to interact with the game. The former is a reflection of the designers. The latter is a reflection of the players.
In the early days of MUDs, players used the ethic of playing their character cold. They didn't use guides or hints or fact sheets. By the spirit of the game it was implicitly agreed that nobody did that. The important point here is that the result of embracing that ethic was that the players got a certain experience out of the game. That experience cannot be achieved in games where using outside information is in the spirit of the game. It's not important whether you like it one way or the other. What's important is that the spirit that the players embrace will impact the sort of experience that they can get from the game.
We can all argue over whether or not paying for the use of things in a game is cheating or not. We can argue over whether using Thottbot is a legitimate way to solve a quest. It really doesn't matter because we all have our own 'spirit of gaming' in mind when we play the game. We refer to those who violate our spirit of gaming as 'cheaters', those who think we violate their spirit of gaming as 'whiners' and those who play the game our way as 'players'.
I believe that the spirit of gaming today is a reflection of where the players have taken it. I think that gaming has been taken right out of the world of gaming and entertainment and into that ugly realm populated by professional sports. It is highly contentious, businesslike and ultimately not very entertaining.
In closing, I'll note that Raph has an annoying habit of using the word 'evolve' in places where he should use 'change'. It sounds better to say 'evolve' because it suggests progress. The spirit of gaming isn't progressing anywhere. It's just changing.
edit: changed slur from 'uptight jerks' to 'whiners'
I have to give you my thumbs and toes up. Too many things have changes in ways we do not personally like, and are helpless against.
I really love soccer, and I played as a kid in junior high. In those days players we worship are players who devoted themselves to the skill, and we watch them play the game. Nowadays, the games are fixed, the players are mainly TV-ad and magazine front-page popularlised idols, and some are idiots at the game with a big egos. I no longer subscribe to the sports channel, any sports channel. I ask, soccer like that is it still a sports? Buying selling players, bribing referees, why do I want to watch a scribed sportshow?
Same for games. In EQ days, way back when we start, we (ogres) gang up to go outside the town, and find ways to avoid the spectres as we explore, the game is in the players, those who knows what to do, and react and coordinate efforts in a wilderness no one knows (no thottbot). Gears are a piece of bronze (chest only) for the warrior and whatever grey the casters can pick up. We help each other so that we as a team gets pass the spectre and gets to the river leading to the frogs outside the Troll starting town. We, team, we, team.
Eventually, the game changes. Raid, the planes, the epics, the game is all about loot. In order to loot, people need raid guilds, and hence guilds formed for the purpose of exacting 24/7 raiding effort and defining a way to distribute the ultra rare drop. Elitist took charge of the hi end drop distribution, b/c no-trade means you have to be there to get the drop. The game is completely dominated by the 24/7 no-lifers. I remember having to be online for 48 hours under water just to spawn the drop for a shaman epic. We cannot even wait afk online as we need to caste the water breathing spell, or need a fishbone earring, or we drown. Come on, is that a game? I remember some friend crying out in RL b/c the server bugged after his epic item drops and he cannot loot it. Come on, is that a game?
RMT adds another dimension to the game, further intensifying the fight for loots. Electric pixels of no-trade items only generate prides, pixels of tradable items generate revenue. The competition is getting intense. The big players are now the rich guys in full purple, who sometimes logs on only to show off. By now, the game is no longer the EQ we once know. Its just a barbie show with a 24/7 or $$$ route for path to heaven. Once again I ask is that a game?
No, not for me, as its less and less fun factor. So I am fading somewhat from many of the hi-end hi-power games. I play LOTRo to multiple 50s, enjoy the lore and get to see the end raid, then I quit. The same I did for WoW and EQ2 before. I still want to enjoy lores, graphics (yes I love the scenery of Angmar mountains, but the grinding Angmar instances? A few visits is way too many already). I still want to go thru the levelling, trying my brains on the skill, the spells, and combinations/tactics. I still want to experience the thrills of new things. But more and more, I lose taste for big guilds, for powerful playing styles and for forced groups. I tend to solo more, to join family style guilds, to spend less and less time online. That is my side of changing. Trying to find the remaining bits of fun I can still salvage from the current form of MMOs.
But who am I, just another nobody the industry careless, and care nothing since I stop subscribing. The rich players will drive the market, and producers will define products to meet their wallets. That is capitalism, that is life.
Raph Koster, whose blog I follow regularly, is one of the wisest people in matters of gaming I know of.
I just wish his wisdom stretched to being able to complete projects that he starts. SWG was never finished before it shipped, which is, in my view, why it slowly fell apart and diminished. I put the blame for that on him.
Lol just another way of squeezing a buck from someones pocket, I am suprised it took them so long to go for "legit gold selling" and give it some fancy corporate name. On another hand it might actually benefit gaming as a whole if it done properly as in removing spam-gold famers that plague almost every MMO. I just dont want to see games designed for sole purpose of being virtual shopping malls.
So many areas to cover when using the term cheating, so I'll just address my view for one of them for now.
Strategy guides hints tips etc.
The mechanics of games today are so big and cover such large areas in a game world that these guides etc are a must. Let me try to explain how I see it.
In a small office you want the stapler, looking around you can often see it or you know which drawers to look in. In a very large office, unless it is kept at a designated area it becomes impossible to find without help.
Game mechanics would say Joe Bloggs last used the Stapler, Small office (Old Morpg) chances are you'll have come across him, larger office (Newer Morpg's) not so easy, so you need to get the info from elsewhere. In game this is very limited if possible at all. You can not ask the NPC's who/where Joe is and at best they will only say he can be found in Central Park (example) and you can't then say any idea where about in the park he maybe. Now for you to go and search all of central park and check every bush, behind every tree etc could take days.
So to reflect true reaction/feedback from NPC's etc they need to have AI or we need another source of information.
We can stand up and shout who knows Joe, where is he etc (annoying even in a large office) or we could ask others who may know him etc (help from a friend etc), we could use a directory which will tell us which area he works in (a quest guide etc)
Anyone remember the Monkey Islands quests on the Amiga? How many of you "tickled the skeletons foot with the feather” There was no clue as to what you needed to do, it was a case of you using everything in your inventory with everything intractable on that screen. Imagine now keeping everything you found in today’s Morpg's and trying to use or give it to everyone/thing in game to continue a quest.
So until NPC's have an Artificial intelligence we will continue to need, but on the other hand if we was to search every inch of each map and check every bush and behind every tree, we would have killed many more mobs etc so our characters would be better and richer so maybe we could afford the weapons skills etc we should have at any given level as we will not have missed out on so much of the game play.
Swings and roundabout, you can sit and read from a book to pass an exam in mechanic's etc or you can get hands on experience both will get you a pass on the exam but only one will offer all you need to be a true master of the trade.
Raph Koster, whose blog I follow regularly, is one of the wisest people in matters of gaming I know of. I dont give such praise easy, trust me. He is able to think ahead and think out of the box, which elevates him above those many, who only understand what is fashion NOW. Gaming is a personal hobby. And in what way I play my hobby is my choice not anyone else's.
Lots of things Raph writes are interesting, but he is like a college professor who can talk about the theory but can't put it into practise in the real world. His work on UO is widely considered as killing the game. SWG had some good ideas but failed in most aspects of its implementation He is an intelligent guy who has been fortunate to work in a number of different companies through the development of an industry which is still VERY young. He's documented and shared some of the work he has seen other folks doing along the way, but as the industry matures he will be found very wanting.
As for your personal hobby, I totally respect your right to play it the way you want - as long as you stay within the rules. Theres a reason RMT is against the rules; it breaks games. Some MMORPGs it has totally destroyed and in some its effects are not so easily seen, but they are still detrimental and they are still there. Play how you want, but don't justify breaking the rules.
...load of bull... Gaming is a personal hobby. And in what way I play my hobby is my choice not anyone else's. Its those conservative old school self proclaimed "elite" who always abhorrs any change in gaming.
How you play the game become other players business when you buy ingame stuff for real life money, as you affect the ingame economy in a huge degree. If you only use that gold to buy stuff from npc's then yes, you wont have any impact on the economy at all, 'c ept having a screwed up view of what stuff is worth, but the moment you spend a single gold in the player market, you have an effect on it. Reason being that you dont know what said item is worth, so you are willing to pay, what for the legit player, is a huge amount of ingame money, thereby sending the message to the people selling stuff that yes, there are idiots out there with am almost endless cc and loads of ingame money and by that, raise the prices on the stuff being sold. I see this on the WoW server I play on now. The economy is totally out of whack cause of losers like this guy who want all the best stuff, but none of the effort required to get it.
I also have to waste my time with no-clue maxed out characters with no idea at all on how to play the game in a group setting, showing no knowledge of how their class works at all(this have happened alot lately). Guess this guy have the potential of being one of them. Well, atleast those players quickly end up on people ignore lists and get shunned by the legit community, which knows how stuff work and are a requirement to enjoy some of the endgame content.
I think the essence of Koster's post was in the paragraph that was not quoted here, which he even took the time to highlight:
Cheating is, in the end, violating the spirit of the rules. But the spirits of games evolve,
Which is why cheating to me is not what it is to you, my impression of the spirit is personal. It has a lot to do with what was the general feeling amongst gamers or even the specific game, when we started playing. People who started out MUDing have a whole different concept of ethics in on-line games than people who started with last weeks Korean F2P.
Personally I feel a little dirty when I use a strategy site, mush like the crossing on a red at 3am example given earlier. Sure I do it, but it feels like I'm breaking the rules. The concept of RMT is totally abhorrent to me (as are most of the item mall objects that allow F2P players to shortcut the 'game'), however gaining knowledge from other characters in the game to aid me seems completely appropriate.
Neither Koster nor I claim to have an absolute definition on what cheating is, it's game and time specific. His post merely points out the fluidity of the definition of cheating. And sure, those who were around when standards were higher will always think that a more lax definition is a slippage or decay. It's all observation, not judgement.
Interesting discussion -- wish I had seen it sooner!
Two quickie things:
- I used "evolve" in a very specific sense: adapting to changing environments. It isn't just blind change. The example in this post is the environment of increased information flow, which results in the assumption that information should in fact be available.
- I don't think people quite understand my position on RMT, because I keep seeing bad summaries of it everywhere.
Comments
Personally, I couldn't care any less if people consider RMT's as cheating or not.
What I do care about is, much like levels in an MMO seperate a community into "pockets" of players, RMT's will divide players further into who is willing to buy their way through a game and who isn't.
I feel that the community in that game will suffer because of this.
*shrug* I dont care if anyone accepts. I do what I want, and so should everyone else. Life is too brief for so called "morality". Its a friggin game, its for fun, not some religion. If you pay someone to write you a novel and he sells it to you so you can pblish it under your name, thats entirely your thing. Entire LEGIONS of people work like this. Do you want to make them unemployed to satisfy YOUR personal moral??
We should all do what we want? Tell that to someone the next time they decide they don't like your face and want to rearrange it. In the modern world, this is against the law, I can run to a police station if that happens to me. I can do nothing tho, if that someone only do not like my face and is sitting at home planning to deface me. In the barbarian world, oh well good luck. Find a big stick and smash him first.
Despite your faux machismo and ignorant (as in, lacking in experience) attitude, society doesn't work that way. There are rules for a very good reason: without them, there is no society and life comes down to the biggest, baddest person does what they want...to you. The only rule is the law, and if the game allows it, then you have nothing to say any more.
The point of a game, as you so clearly seem to miss, is not to get to the end. See, you don't "win" an mmo. So skipping to the end of the game is akin to reading only the last three pages of a novel and thinking smugly to yourself, "I read that book." You could possibly "win" a game of chess by picking up your king and stabbing your opponent in the eye with it. But that's not playing by the rules you so disdain, is it? I suppose you'd call it a win--at least on the forums. I have a strong feeling that in RL, you are not so nonchalent about rules. The point of a game, is I pay for my account and I play it my way. None of your damn business. Only the game (represented by the GM) has anything to say on this issue. I remember letting my sister's baby beat me in a chess game by simply letting him sweep all pieces off the board. We both are happy, period. That is a game. Learn to enjoy your share of the game, and stop your jealous remarks. And stop speculating about my RL. WE are only anonymous icons in a message board talking about games. We will never meet in RL. You do not have to resort to personal attacks to vent your anger.
But go ahead, keep lying to yourself. I'm sure you'll meet plenty of people in life who think the same way and spend all their time screwing one another over so they can "win." Come on, mind your own business. You are not the sheriff, you are another player, no more than that.
So, how many accounts do you have, Elikal?There were no personal attacks. I was simply point out that in RL, you do follow rules--even though here you try to claim that you do not. The difference? In RL, the punishments are so severe that violating the rules is not worthwhile. In a game, all you get is the disdain of people who actually play the game and possibly getting banned...from a game that you're cheating in anyway (so clearly you don't care much about the game, so it's not much of a punishment).
Got any more accounts to hide behind?
Apply lemon juice and candle flame here to reveal secret message.
Players of today make me sick.
Q. What is Cheating
A. Micro-Transactions is cheating. Real world money is cheating.
btw that's the system of extortion payment that YOU'RE advocating Mr. Koster.
This debate can also be framed as Cheating versus Illegal. Cheating is broadly defined as gaining an advantage over others using ways that was not intended by the game developers.
So buying gold provides an advantage because a player can buy and do things he otherwise would not be able to do from normal gaming activities. However in many games, the developer states in their End User License Agreement that this tool is so damaging to their product that it allows them the right to cancel a players subscription without reimbursement.
What about guides or walkthrough websites? As Ralph commented on, these provide an advantage of speed. One knows where to go, how to prepare and how to overcome obstacles the developer intended to provide for players. Same goes for the concept of powerlevelling. Is this cheating?
Buying an account from another player is a risk You may send money to another and never see them again or the account is not what was advertised. The developer cannot police this because the account has not broken any rules, just the owner has changed. Cheating only oneself out of a gaming experience. Or simply enjoying the real fun of the game, the end part. MMO Design problem??
What about macros? Custom Made UI programs? Some of these UI programs list everything you can dream about. Did developers intend players to know every detail and statistic of their challanges?
An interesting debate on the heels of baseballs steroid debacle. Society has deemed enhancing drugs as cheating. What about eyeglasses or contacts? Also realize that many players were taking steroids, yet only a few broke records. Is there not some skill involved in any game regardless of the path you choose to win?
Mullings
I'll quote the conclusion of Raph's post:
The emphasis is his, and it's the crux of his post. The spirit of an MMO is partly the result of the enforced rules of the game, but also partly the result of the way the players choose to interact with the game. The former is a reflection of the designers. The latter is a reflection of the players.
In the early days of MUDs, players used the ethic of playing their character cold. They didn't use guides or hints or fact sheets. By the spirit of the game it was implicitly agreed that nobody did that. The important point here is that the result of embracing that ethic was that the players got a certain experience out of the game. That experience cannot be achieved in games where using outside information is in the spirit of the game. It's not important whether you like it one way or the other. What's important is that the spirit that the players embrace will impact the sort of experience that they can get from the game.
We can all argue over whether or not paying for the use of things in a game is cheating or not. We can argue over whether using Thottbot is a legitimate way to solve a quest. It really doesn't matter because we all have our own 'spirit of gaming' in mind when we play the game. We refer to those who violate our spirit of gaming as 'cheaters', those who think we violate their spirit of gaming as 'whiners' and those who play the game our way as 'players'.
I believe that the spirit of gaming today is a reflection of where the players have taken it. I think that gaming has been taken right out of the world of gaming and entertainment and into that ugly realm populated by professional sports. It is highly contentious, businesslike and ultimately not very entertaining.
In closing, I'll note that Raph has an annoying habit of using the word 'evolve' in places where he should use 'change'. It sounds better to say 'evolve' because it suggests progress. The spirit of gaming isn't progressing anywhere. It's just changing.
edit: changed slur from 'uptight jerks' to 'whiners'
I wonder if Raph considers it cheating to market a game based upon content it doesn't actually have? *Cough, Jedi in SWG at release not coded* Yeah Raph, thanks for another brilliant insight from the god of all fatuous hypocrites.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Technicaly, none of it is cheating, but, the moment you start to look at it from a technical side and start looking for definitions of what cheating is you're already there and what you are doing is justifying cheating.
*shrug* I dont care if anyone accepts. I do what I want, and so should everyone else. Life is too brief for so called "morality". Its a friggin game, its for fun, not some religion. If you pay someone to write you a novel and he sells it to you so you can pblish it under your name, thats entirely your thing. Entire LEGIONS of people work like this. Do you want to make them unemployed to satisfy YOUR personal moral??
We should all do what we want? Tell that to someone the next time they decide they don't like your face and want to rearrange it. In the modern world, this is against the law, I can run to a police station if that happens to me. I can do nothing tho, if that someone only do not like my face and is sitting at home planning to deface me. In the barbarian world, oh well good luck. Find a big stick and smash him first.
Despite your faux machismo and ignorant (as in, lacking in experience) attitude, society doesn't work that way. There are rules for a very good reason: without them, there is no society and life comes down to the biggest, baddest person does what they want...to you. The only rule is the law, and if the game allows it, then you have nothing to say any more.
The point of a game, as you so clearly seem to miss, is not to get to the end. See, you don't "win" an mmo. So skipping to the end of the game is akin to reading only the last three pages of a novel and thinking smugly to yourself, "I read that book." You could possibly "win" a game of chess by picking up your king and stabbing your opponent in the eye with it. But that's not playing by the rules you so disdain, is it? I suppose you'd call it a win--at least on the forums. I have a strong feeling that in RL, you are not so nonchalent about rules. The point of a game, is I pay for my account and I play it my way. None of your damn business. Only the game (represented by the GM) has anything to say on this issue. I remember letting my sister's baby beat me in a chess game by simply letting him sweep all pieces off the board. We both are happy, period. That is a game. Learn to enjoy your share of the game, and stop your jealous remarks. And stop speculating about my RL. WE are only anonymous icons in a message board talking about games. We will never meet in RL. You do not have to resort to personal attacks to vent your anger.
But go ahead, keep lying to yourself. I'm sure you'll meet plenty of people in life who think the same way and spend all their time screwing one another over so they can "win." Come on, mind your own business. You are not the sheriff, you are another player, no more than that.
So, how many accounts do you have, Elikal?There were no personal attacks. I was simply point out that in RL, you do follow rules--even though here you try to claim that you do not. The difference? In RL, the punishments are so severe that violating the rules is not worthwhile. In a game, all you get is the disdain of people who actually play the game and possibly getting banned...from a game that you're cheating in anyway (so clearly you don't care much about the game, so it's not much of a punishment).
Got any more accounts to hide behind?
You do not need to make it personal, nor speculative. I am not Elikal, I have a lot of personal post with very different views. If you do not agree with my views, discuss it. Calling me Elikal does not help us understand each other anyway deeper.If you read my words, I DO NOT ENDORSE RMT. I just mean to say, if RMT is endorsed by the game developer, we all shut up. IF a game does not permit RMT, RMT is illegal, subjected to legal persecution, fine or imprisonment. Anyone doing that is liable to police knock-knock. Do it at your own risk (your does not mean anyone specific, just a your).
I just pointed out 1 thing, RMT technically does not affect anyone else's gameplay, basically its jealousy and zeal for drops that is affected. Why do you care if anyone got a purple drop. Its a game for christ's sake. That purple drop is just a digital display.
Of couse, we all have our own views about what should be, but that is personal views, not enforceable. If we do not want RMT, we can avoid all those RMT servers, like SoE exchange servers, and play games that have some measure of GM efforts against gold farmers. I am somewhat pessimistic about the war against gold farmers, and so all I can do is ignore all the gold-farmer spams, turn off general chats, turn on anon status so that gold farmers cannot find me from LFG or /who listing, and I play my own game. What else can I do. Like mosquitoes, these gold farmers will be there one way or another.
One other member here has a very interesting illustration. RMT actually changes the distribution of very rare items. Without RMT, the lucky guy, the duper/cheater, the 24/7 player and the few player knowing where the drops are, will enjoy the rare drops and dictate who gets it. They will sell it for 50000million plats in the game, and no one but themselves can afford it. With RMT, the circle of ownership is expanded to those willing and able to buy the rares with $$$. Is that necessarily evil? I do not want to pass my judgment. I just want to tell you that lucky guys, dupers and 24/7s are always there, and there is no reason why they can dicatate who gets what loot in the game.
Like the old Indian wisdom goes, some evil is inevitable, like the mosquitoes on the back of the cow, sweeping them off with its tail, the cow opens a spot on its back for the next batch of mosquitoes. Oh if you have a good idea on how to kill all gold farmers, spell it out. Don't tell me that we all should stop buying gold. That is almost nonsense. We should all refrain from breaking the laws? So what? almost all our political leaders are corrupted, to start with.
The emphasis is his, and it's the crux of his post. The spirit of an MMO is partly the result of the enforced rules of the game, but also partly the result of the way the players choose to interact with the game. The former is a reflection of the designers. The latter is a reflection of the players.
In the early days of MUDs, players used the ethic of playing their character cold. They didn't use guides or hints or fact sheets. By the spirit of the game it was implicitly agreed that nobody did that. The important point here is that the result of embracing that ethic was that the players got a certain experience out of the game. That experience cannot be achieved in games where using outside information is in the spirit of the game. It's not important whether you like it one way or the other. What's important is that the spirit that the players embrace will impact the sort of experience that they can get from the game.
We can all argue over whether or not paying for the use of things in a game is cheating or not. We can argue over whether using Thottbot is a legitimate way to solve a quest. It really doesn't matter because we all have our own 'spirit of gaming' in mind when we play the game. We refer to those who violate our spirit of gaming as 'cheaters', those who think we violate their spirit of gaming as 'whiners' and those who play the game our way as 'players'.
I believe that the spirit of gaming today is a reflection of where the players have taken it. I think that gaming has been taken right out of the world of gaming and entertainment and into that ugly realm populated by professional sports. It is highly contentious, businesslike and ultimately not very entertaining.
In closing, I'll note that Raph has an annoying habit of using the word 'evolve' in places where he should use 'change'. It sounds better to say 'evolve' because it suggests progress. The spirit of gaming isn't progressing anywhere. It's just changing.
edit: changed slur from 'uptight jerks' to 'whiners'
I have to give you my thumbs and toes up. Too many things have changes in ways we do not personally like, and are helpless against.I really love soccer, and I played as a kid in junior high. In those days players we worship are players who devoted themselves to the skill, and we watch them play the game. Nowadays, the games are fixed, the players are mainly TV-ad and magazine front-page popularlised idols, and some are idiots at the game with a big egos. I no longer subscribe to the sports channel, any sports channel. I ask, soccer like that is it still a sports? Buying selling players, bribing referees, why do I want to watch a scribed sportshow?
Same for games. In EQ days, way back when we start, we (ogres) gang up to go outside the town, and find ways to avoid the spectres as we explore, the game is in the players, those who knows what to do, and react and coordinate efforts in a wilderness no one knows (no thottbot). Gears are a piece of bronze (chest only) for the warrior and whatever grey the casters can pick up. We help each other so that we as a team gets pass the spectre and gets to the river leading to the frogs outside the Troll starting town. We, team, we, team.
Eventually, the game changes. Raid, the planes, the epics, the game is all about loot. In order to loot, people need raid guilds, and hence guilds formed for the purpose of exacting 24/7 raiding effort and defining a way to distribute the ultra rare drop. Elitist took charge of the hi end drop distribution, b/c no-trade means you have to be there to get the drop. The game is completely dominated by the 24/7 no-lifers. I remember having to be online for 48 hours under water just to spawn the drop for a shaman epic. We cannot even wait afk online as we need to caste the water breathing spell, or need a fishbone earring, or we drown. Come on, is that a game? I remember some friend crying out in RL b/c the server bugged after his epic item drops and he cannot loot it. Come on, is that a game?
RMT adds another dimension to the game, further intensifying the fight for loots. Electric pixels of no-trade items only generate prides, pixels of tradable items generate revenue. The competition is getting intense. The big players are now the rich guys in full purple, who sometimes logs on only to show off. By now, the game is no longer the EQ we once know. Its just a barbie show with a 24/7 or $$$ route for path to heaven. Once again I ask is that a game?
No, not for me, as its less and less fun factor. So I am fading somewhat from many of the hi-end hi-power games. I play LOTRo to multiple 50s, enjoy the lore and get to see the end raid, then I quit. The same I did for WoW and EQ2 before. I still want to enjoy lores, graphics (yes I love the scenery of Angmar mountains, but the grinding Angmar instances? A few visits is way too many already). I still want to go thru the levelling, trying my brains on the skill, the spells, and combinations/tactics. I still want to experience the thrills of new things. But more and more, I lose taste for big guilds, for powerful playing styles and for forced groups. I tend to solo more, to join family style guilds, to spend less and less time online. That is my side of changing. Trying to find the remaining bits of fun I can still salvage from the current form of MMOs.
But who am I, just another nobody the industry careless, and care nothing since I stop subscribing. The rich players will drive the market, and producers will define products to meet their wallets. That is capitalism, that is life.
I just wish his wisdom stretched to being able to complete projects that he starts. SWG was never finished before it shipped, which is, in my view, why it slowly fell apart and diminished. I put the blame for that on him.
Lol just another way of squeezing a buck from someones pocket, I am suprised it took them so long to go for "legit gold selling" and give it some fancy corporate name. On another hand it might actually benefit gaming as a whole if it done properly as in removing spam-gold famers that plague almost every MMO. I just dont want to see games designed for sole purpose of being virtual shopping malls.
So many areas to cover when using the term cheating, so I'll just address my view for one of them for now.
Strategy guides hints tips etc.
The mechanics of games today are so big and cover such large areas in a game world that these guides etc are a must. Let me try to explain how I see it.
In a small office you want the stapler, looking around you can often see it or you know which drawers to look in. In a very large office, unless it is kept at a designated area it becomes impossible to find without help.
Game mechanics would say Joe Bloggs last used the Stapler, Small office (Old Morpg) chances are you'll have come across him, larger office (Newer Morpg's) not so easy, so you need to get the info from elsewhere. In game this is very limited if possible at all. You can not ask the NPC's who/where Joe is and at best they will only say he can be found in Central Park (example) and you can't then say any idea where about in the park he maybe. Now for you to go and search all of central park and check every bush, behind every tree etc could take days.
So to reflect true reaction/feedback from NPC's etc they need to have AI or we need another source of information.
We can stand up and shout who knows Joe, where is he etc (annoying even in a large office) or we could ask others who may know him etc (help from a friend etc), we could use a directory which will tell us which area he works in (a quest guide etc)
Anyone remember the Monkey Islands quests on the Amiga? How many of you "tickled the skeletons foot with the feather” There was no clue as to what you needed to do, it was a case of you using everything in your inventory with everything intractable on that screen. Imagine now keeping everything you found in today’s Morpg's and trying to use or give it to everyone/thing in game to continue a quest.
So until NPC's have an Artificial intelligence we will continue to need, but on the other hand if we was to search every inch of each map and check every bush and behind every tree, we would have killed many more mobs etc so our characters would be better and richer so maybe we could afford the weapons skills etc we should have at any given level as we will not have missed out on so much of the game play.
Swings and roundabout, you can sit and read from a book to pass an exam in mechanic's etc or you can get hands on experience both will get you a pass on the exam but only one will offer all you need to be a true master of the trade.
How you play the game become other players business when you buy ingame stuff for real life money, as you affect the ingame economy in a huge degree. If you only use that gold to buy stuff from npc's then yes, you wont have any impact on the economy at all, 'c ept having a screwed up view of what stuff is worth, but the moment you spend a single gold in the player market, you have an effect on it. Reason being that you dont know what said item is worth, so you are willing to pay, what for the legit player, is a huge amount of ingame money, thereby sending the message to the people selling stuff that yes, there are idiots out there with am almost endless cc and loads of ingame money and by that, raise the prices on the stuff being sold. I see this on the WoW server I play on now. The economy is totally out of whack cause of losers like this guy who want all the best stuff, but none of the effort required to get it.
I also have to waste my time with no-clue maxed out characters with no idea at all on how to play the game in a group setting, showing no knowledge of how their class works at all(this have happened alot lately). Guess this guy have the potential of being one of them. Well, atleast those players quickly end up on people ignore lists and get shunned by the legit community, which knows how stuff work and are a requirement to enjoy some of the endgame content.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
I think the essence of Koster's post was in the paragraph that was not quoted here, which he even took the time to highlight:
Which is why cheating to me is not what it is to you, my impression of the spirit is personal. It has a lot to do with what was the general feeling amongst gamers or even the specific game, when we started playing. People who started out MUDing have a whole different concept of ethics in on-line games than people who started with last weeks Korean F2P.
Personally I feel a little dirty when I use a strategy site, mush like the crossing on a red at 3am example given earlier. Sure I do it, but it feels like I'm breaking the rules. The concept of RMT is totally abhorrent to me (as are most of the item mall objects that allow F2P players to shortcut the 'game'), however gaining knowledge from other characters in the game to aid me seems completely appropriate.
Neither Koster nor I claim to have an absolute definition on what cheating is, it's game and time specific. His post merely points out the fluidity of the definition of cheating. And sure, those who were around when standards were higher will always think that a more lax definition is a slippage or decay. It's all observation, not judgement.
Interesting discussion -- wish I had seen it sooner!
Two quickie things:
- I used "evolve" in a very specific sense: adapting to changing environments. It isn't just blind change. The example in this post is the environment of increased information flow, which results in the assumption that information should in fact be available.
- I don't think people quite understand my position on RMT, because I keep seeing bad summaries of it everywhere.