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The Veteran/Rookie Disparity
Myzery78
Member Posts: 15
I can honestly say I've never had so much fun in an mmorpg as I did when I started playing EVE back in 2003. It was a truly unique experience, one that the developers of EVE should be commended for. over time though, one of EVEs biggest selling points has shown it self to be a fundamental flaw. Im referring of course, to the EVE skill training system. The skill training system in EVE was designed to remove the level grind and to allow casual players to remain on par with hardcore players, and in that respect it initially did an impressive job. The skill system however, can be quite unforgiving. If you decide to change the focus of your character from say, gallente ships to caldari, you have what are essentially wasted skill points. If you decide to go from production to combat, you have wasted skill points. Now thats not to say in either example that you couldnt continue to make use of those skills, but if you decide you'd rather focus on a different aspect of EVE, you have skill points, and thus time invested, giving you little/no benefit. On an even more basic level though, if you trained any skills before your learning skills, you have what is essentially wasted time.
That however, is not the problem. Those issues only serve to make the disparity more obvious. Lets look at two players, one I'll call player A, a veteran player with 40 million skill points, and another I'll refer to as player B, a rookie pilot with 1 million skill points. Putting aside isk, since isk is not directly based on the age of your account, lets look at a combat between these two individuals. Flying identical ships with identical setups, we should expect to see player A win 100% of the time. That makes sense, player A will do more damage, be likely to take less damage, and overall be able to sustain more damage. In this circumstance it seems perfectly reasonable, but when we examine what this means a little closer, the problems become much more apparent. Aside from seeing player skill play little/no role in the combat, a concern I wont delve in to here, we see that it is likely if player B will lose consistently given a level playing field, he will always lose. This is where the disparity exists. No matter how much time or effort player B invests, in a PVP battle he will likely never be able to compete with player A. Over time the gap will remain, and in fact it will continue to widen until player B has trained his learning skills and acquired implants on par with those owned by player A. At that point the gap will stop growing, but should remain indefinitely.
The only way to close the gap is to find player C, a player that has a skill point total similar to player A, and for whatever reason no longer wants that character. The gap between player A and B is eliminated only by purchasing a better character with isk, a truly poor solution to the problem. Not only does it encourage Real Money Transactions (RMTs), the need for such exchanges clearly indicates that the character player B created could never possibly be as good as the one created by player A.
This disparity exists across all career paths in EVE, but is most clearly visible in PVP where players are in direct competition. It is a problem that will only worsen over time, and one with no obvious solutions. Giving new characters faster skill training times would help to end the disparity, but would essentially just create an underclass in the EVE society, consisting of those people who have around 10-20 million skill points, and would eventually find themselves disadvantaged. In fact, if EVE continues to run for another 4+ years it would simply put all those currently involved on opposite sides of the disparity. The ability to retrain skills would offer a solution for those who made suboptimal choices, or who would like to experience something new. Missions that award levels in key low end skills would also help to lessen the disparity. The simplest solution would be to open up a second server. This would not solve the problem, but would create an opportunity for players to start fresh on a new playing field. I would expect a strong negative reaction to this suggestion, since an exodus of players from tranquility would decrease the power of those already well established characters and corporations, power being both situational and relative.
Comments
Wow, so much typing, from someone who doesn't understand how the skill point system works. I'll try to keep this simple.
Take one ship....lets say a Rook. It will take about 6 - 9 months to train up/cap every possible skill that is necessary to fly it successfully. After that, no matter how long you've played the game, you will never be any better in that Rook, at least from a skill point perspective.
A corpmate of mine (with 12 million sp) uses this set-up on his Rook:
3 Arbalest Launchers x 3 w/ Caldari Navy Bloodclaws in the Highs...
Gistii A-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive , Domination Warp Disruptor in the Mids.... (MWD2 & Warp Disruptor2 if your low on isk
2 x Overdrive injectors II & Capacitor Power Relay II in the Lows..
2 Capacitor control circuit I in the rig slots....
This set up along with ALL the proper skills, Hard wirings, and at least 1 x 5% Snake.
Using this set up this corpmate kills an average of 2 to 8 ships a day solo. That's right, not in a gate camp, he actively hunts players down and kills them in low sec.
I've been playing the game for 7 months now, and I'm about 1.5 days training away from outfitting the same setup as shown above. (though I might need a couple more weeks of training for some of the implants he's mentioned.
I also fly a well fitted Stealth Bomber as well as a ratting Raven BS and a heck of a Drake Battlecruiser. All in 7 months. Unfortunately, I lack my friend's PVP skills so I will not be able to fly it as well as him when I get started. But he won't have much (if any) edge on me from a gear/SP viewpoint.
Sure, since I went Caldari, I might have wasted some SP's if I one day decide to fly a Minmitar Vagabond, but that's OK, I have a Caldari alt that I've been training (for 6 months) to fly Gun Ships (vs Missile boats) and by the 9 month mark he'll be able to fly a Tech 2 decked out Vagabond as well as a Tech 2 Caldari Rokh Sniper BS.
If I really want to, in a year or two (ISK willing) I'll be able to train up to fly a Titan (largest ship class in the game), but I doubt I will. So much fun to be had in EVE at every ship level, you just have to be a little patient and put in the initial 6mo to a year of training to become pretty competent.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have to agree with Kyleran on this one. You are thinking one dimentionally in a multidimentional system. I don't mean that as a strike at you its just that is what it is. I will post later on this subject
"And thus I clothe my naked villany/ with old odd ends stolen forth from holy writ/ and seem a saint when most I play the devil." Shakespeare's Richard III Act I Scene 3.
My crows a little different I sold my Gist MWD and spent the money on hardwirings and polycarbs and a injected setup based on agility as much as speed with i-stabs and ODs
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Continuing from my above post. When you do anything in Eve you only really use a slight portion of the total skills you have. Like to fly a frig that is ment to be a tackler or a mission runner I would not be using my mining lasers so not really using my mining skill. (If you are in fact using your mining lasers to PvP then I think we have nailed down the problem.) So eventhough the X amount of skill points that I have in mining and assorted other skills that go with it add to my total number of skill points are not tipping the balance in my favor at all in PvP.
So if a 40mil character who is a miner, started a miner and only trained miner skills was crossed in a simular ship with a PvP 1mil spec character the 40 mil would be floating in his pod. This is ABC's of the skill system.
I also wanted to touch on "Never being able to catch the Vet" urban legend you spoke of. A person who plays Eve first knows that not all of the skills you may have trained will be used in lets say PvP. Lets say for the sake of argument that there are 23 different skills to fly a fully loaded frig. Now all these skills have a top out level of 5, no matter how many skill points you have you may never have a skill passed 5 it is not possible. So if I have a 10 mil character with 5s in all 23 skills and a 40 mil character has 5s in all 23 skills we both will be able to operate that frig with equal efficentcy and it would simply come down to skill on who wins. Thats the way it works folks anyone trying to tell you different doesn't play the game.
I wanted to end my post on this thought, in Eve there is never wasted time or skills only wasted opprotunity. If you can not see how mining skills will help your manufacturing career or how PvP skills will help your exploration career and visa versa then I would say that this game is not for you
"And thus I clothe my naked villany/ with old odd ends stolen forth from holy writ/ and seem a saint when most I play the devil." Shakespeare's Richard III Act I Scene 3.
The OP uses a dead horse argument that frankly holds no weight. It actually shows that he doesn't understand the game and how it is played. Eve isn't like other MMO's. A noob can actually compete within a couple months in pvp. Just specialize in one ship and you will be equal in sp with everyone else who has specialized in that ship. The difference is vets have more options. That's all. And I have no problem with that.
i have 3 characters available to me with over 50,000,000 skillpoints, only 2 if my brother starts playing again. But i still consider making new characters to specialize in a certain ship. I don't really play eve anymore though, but I did last month for a couple weeks straight and If i had stayed with it I wouldv'e made another hac character or jump freighter character. In fact I look at my characters now and I feel as though I wasted a lot of skill points since my freighter pilot also has gallente battleship 5 also carrier lvl 5, and my vagabond character also has amarr dreadnaught 4.5 (like 16 days to go to lvl 5). sure it would be a pain to manage 7 or 8 characters but the point is I look at some of my skillpoints in the "main" characters and think of lots of the skillpoints as wasted.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
I will debate one point here. I don't see changing focus in skill training as losing the time you had on your other skills but the fact that they're there makes you more versatile and is always there for you to return to whatever thing you did with those skills.
Plus, the time spent to get decent in whatever thing you want to change to varies.
The OP makes a simple assumption: If a newbie always loses to a vet, their respective power levels will never change, given EVE's character skilling system.
This is the basic premise of that argument, and it has a serious flaw:
"Skill points obey the rule of diminishing returns."
The first million skillpoints (two days old account, or thereabouts) are crucial to the player: They define what he can do within the game. Each skillpoint spent goes toward opening more options within the game and usually within combat.
When he reaches 2mil skillpoints (a few more weeks of training) he'll be roughly twice as efficient as he was, provided he is smart and chooses a field. Even if he spreads it around, he'll be a lot more efficient then he was at 1mil skillpoints, simply because he will have more basic options available at this point. He now can most likely fit a frigate effectively, with basic ew, tackle and speed tank.
A 40mil skillpoint vet (or anyone with most of the 'basic' stuff out of the way, which is around 10mil skillpoints) doesn't see such increase over time. A million skillpoints becomes a statistic. Sure, at one point it means he may be able to fit one or two t2 modules more, or gain more LP and ISK from missions, or produce more efficiently, but the increase in returns is proportionally per-skillpoint much lower.
At 40mil skillpoints, the vet will not be able to use all, or even most, of those skillpoints in any given PVP combat situation. Sure, he will still most likely whip a 1mil skillpoint rookie, flying (most likely) a rookie ship, solo, no matter what. But he will not be able to simply walz into combat against a 10mil skillpoint 'lowbie', flying a well-fitted cruiser and expect to come out on top.
The biggest flaw in this argument is the definition of 'rookie'. Yes, in EVE newbies are pretty helpless in PVP. That's because a player without some skillpoints under their belt are essentially 'infants', they lack the basic options for effective combat fits or anything else. After a few weeks to a month of doing PVE/mining and training, they'll start seeing their abilities soar up, picking up new things about as fast as their skills get trained to test them.
This is the 'first groove' in starting EVE: That magical time from a 2-2.5mil skillpoints to around ~10mil skillpoints, when everything seems to come at you, you are busy as heck, you never can have enough ISK, and playing is fun.
When the 'first groove' ends, you'll find yourself somewhere between 10-20 skillpoints, and you most likely can do one thing quite well, and a couple of others badly. At this point, well, things depend on what you like to do, and setting a goal for yourself is important to keeping your motivation.
At this point, you're not that much 'worse off' then a 40mil skillpoint Vet. Or a 50mil skillpoint vet, which is what the hyphothetical 'rookie ganker' now just about is. His last 10mil skillpoints that he's aquired while you learned the game will not give him any new substantial edge in combat. Sure, he may have skilled up to a carrier, but that's no help to him at all if you catch him while he's flying a cruiser.
And all his frigate, cruiser, battleship, battlecruiser, industrial ship and sub-capital module skills are by OP's definition 'completely wasted' when he's sitting in that carrier. Talk about waste! And if he has industry/research skills too? More waste!
That leads me to my second point: OP's definition of 'wasted' skillpoints: In my opinion, no skillpoint is ever wasted. Sure, I may only fly Gallente, and if I skill up to Minmatar ships it may look like some of my skills (notably, Gallente ship skills, Hybrid turret skills) are wasted if I fly Minmatar. This is false.
Skills have one purpose in the game, and one purpose only: Options.
This is where the 'uberness of a vet' appears: A Veteran player can, at any time he wants, do several things with just one character: He can lead a corp, fly all levels of ships from multiple races, mine, research, manufacture, and set up POS'es. Each activity of these is achievable by a 'rookie' well before hitting 40mil skillpoints if they specialize in that aspect.
I can do combat ships, manufacture and research with a character under 25mil skillpoints. Sure, I'm still working up several skills that affect these things, but I've also 'wasted' a lot of skillpoints into things I wanted to try out but didnt' really need.
In short: Myzery78, your argument is based on a flawed basic assumption on the uses of skillpoints, and is built on a false comparison of 'rookie' and 'veteran' capabilities. A more fitting comparison could be achieved between players of 10mil sp and 20mil sp characters, where a disparity in abilities is at its strongest (10mil sp char is unlikely to fly many t2 ships).
However, a 10mil character can become 20mil character quite easily over time, which would have proven even more deadly as a flaw in your argument then a comparison pitting a trial-starting player against a three-year plus vet.
Actually he makes 2 assumptions, The second is that the best way to face a vet is to come at him with a mirror setup. Lets be honest if I never try and "headbutt" a player in SP to show skills because it NEVER works. I try and do something that attacks him where he is weak on that ship fitting. IF he run damage I try to use electronic warfare, etc... Sure if you try and beat an older player at his own game you should lose almost always and thats a good thing. Its also good that you can do your own thing and beat him quite soundly.
Yes, but with the assumption of a 1mil sp 'infant' rookie, straight-up damage is pretty much going to be what he'll fit. It's unlikely a rookie would have any knowledge, let alone skills, to fit for complex EW combat.
In my 'defense' though, I assumed both players are smart individuals playing for keeps, and thus 10mil vs. 40mil disparity is much smaller, and the 'vet' can get his butt squarely kicked by the 'rookie' if he happens to get the wrong piece of the 'paper-scissors-gank-ew'-game.
Let's look at it this way. Do you expect to play WoW for a couple weeks and be able to kill a level 70? Of course not. Veterans are always going to have the upper hand no matter what game it is. The difference is that there aren't the same gear differences as there are in fantasy MMOs. One piece of gear doesn't make you uber beyond measures. So if you're specializing, you can catch up to someone else in -that field- fairly quickly. Most of the items you're using are likely going to be very similar, and if different only by several percentage points in various things - and different based off of what setup you go with.
Its actually "cow-lake-bomb". The devs said that!
Well, since we're talking about a 'rookie', and not a 'vets little alt', having an in-depth knowledge of the game is unlikely before you've already surpassed couple of million SP. Even then, you'll still have the major disadvantage of not being able to fit your ship competitively, due to lack of funds and 'basic' fitting skills.
And few 0.0 corps take members still on their trials, and those that do mostly do so for RL friends recommended by members. That's how I've seen it.
I love how we aren't arguing over if he's wrong but how he is wrong
Ah, I get what the guy is saying, heck I brought the saying to the game known as "Timed paid = skills gained" game.
Which starts flame wars constantly about this title, I read the whole thread here and I think the OP is off mark. You really want to know what kills this game for new players? Each one of you has posted the very reason in one post or another.
"It takes a few months to get there"
Exactly, you can argue this about WoW about any MMO out there, however in EVE, you feel that you really don't accomplish much till after month 2. I have yet to see any vet argue that point but only to argue it when it is brought to the forefront of the problem with the game.
Beyond that, EvE is dam cool, community is top notch, but as I said years ago, it is not new player friendly, never has been never will till that is changed. Aye, tell us about the bonus to skills gained at the start, yea, I remember that being done and the ton of current players saying how "unfair" it was, but to turn around the next day and again complain not enough new people are joining. Eh, if you ask me, to fix it, just get the initial new player 4mil to get them going (feed it over a week) and there you go, they will actually see some of the game and feel like they are getting something done.
As is, again takes a few months just to get going and when your own play time really doesn’t effect that skill earning as a whole, there is no incentive to log in and if there is no incentive to log in and play but just to "skill up" they rather WoW or another MMO were what they do will actually effect their level/skills. Again flame away I know you will, I get what the OP is saying, but it is more reflected to the actually starting player then someone that has started and survived the boredom of the first few months. If they could kill that initial few months of boredom as described above, EVE would actually probably see a higher more steady rate of players I am sure.
salu!
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
The only problem I have with this argument is that there is so much to learn. Having to train skills makes a player understand the game better. CCP already has increased the amount of skill for a noob to about 1mil SP. I remember when it took weeks to get that high. I really think the way CCP has the game set up now is the best. The way the trial goes if you don't like your first build, just start a new trial with another build until you find something you like. It's not like there is any obligation. You don't even have to give any credit card info.
The only problem I have with this argument is that there is so much to learn. Having to train skills makes a player understand the game better. CCP already has increased the amount of skill for a noob to about 1mil SP. I remember when it took weeks to get that high. I really think the way CCP has the game set up now is the best. The way the trial goes if you don't like your first build, just start a new trial with another build until you find something you like. It's not like there is any obligation. You don't even have to give any credit card info.
If this is the case now, then fantastic
While I post other places on my true personal opinions on the game , I have the respect here to say for those intrested in this title to check it out if this be the case now. I found this to be the biggest negative of the whole game. Beyond that I have other reasons, but not going to troll these forums. Good to hear something like this was done, Thnx for the info 
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
MMM 1 word:
Goonswarm
I'll give you another:
Smash
And another:
Bruce
And another:
Hydra
And another:
Agony Unleashed
All 5 of those are 0.0 alliances that have corps in them that I know for a fact take new players.
As to TRIAL accounts? NOBODY in 0.0 accepts trial account players unless it's someone's alt. Period. It has nothing whatsoever to do with not wanting new players though and EVERYTHING to do with operational security.
Please stop using arguements like this. It only makes it patently obvious that you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
======================================================================
And please tell me ANY game where a 'rookie' and not a 'vets little alt' is going to have in-depth knowledge of the game and how it works and how best to PVP in it? Please? Just 1? Name any 1 game where an utter newbie, given exact same stats and exact same abilities will have a realistic chance of beating a veteran with detailed knowledge of how things work and why they work. Just 1 game. Any game...
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
Best thing I can advise is stick with it for 6 months, it will be difficult and just downright boring at times but after around the 8 mill SP point the game suddenly changes.
Crap boring stuff like missions and ratting just becomes a doddle so earning ISK is no problem and you will have progressed in your own skills and knowledge (not char skills) to have a good grasp of the basics such as tactics and ship fitting along with the ability to use better ships and modules and it just opens up all new possibility's you are begining to become genuinely competitive and hopefully wise enough to make the most of it.
It just takes patience for the first 6 months, and also a lot of it is not just skill points but the learning you do yourself.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Taram, I'm not saying you're incorrect in your claims. I'm simply saying that they don't reflect the OP's original assumption, which specified a 1mil sp rookie player. And with the new player experience, a trial account should get quite close to, if not over, 1mil sp during its 14 days of playtime.
I'm also not saying that there aren't corps/alliances that take rookies in. Taking rookies in is a good measure to ensure future growth of pvp'ers and industrialists. I know, I started off as a rookie in an alliance (or, we joined an alliance pretty soon after I'd joined the corp). It was fun doing a PVP/Ratting group frigateswarm training op with lots of other rookies and some vets in PVP-fitted cruisers etc. to watch over us.
My point was simply to illustrate how OP's original argument was flawed, and I tried to do so in an analytical way. I did point out that a better comparison would have been achieved between a 10mil sp 'lowbie' and the hyphothetical '40mil sp vet'.
Even my limited knowledge of EVE tells me this guy is wrong. Eve combat skills have caps at 5 levels and higher tiers of combat skills have a lower rate of return. Mathmatically it would be impossible for the gap between similar players to grow beyond a certain point. Once that maximum gap were reached, it would then be impossible for the "higher level" player to maintain that gap unless the lower player completely stopped training relevant combat skills. Anyhow the point is that in the beginning the gap is large until it reaches it's maximum and then slowly begins to retreat to an even level over time.
No my points were exactly regarding your statements.
1) It's not HARD at all for a rookie to get into a 0.0 corp/alliance that can teach him the ropes
2) There's not a single game out there where a totally new player can compete with a 'vet'. Not 1. Not even WoW. So people who use this arguement are making a straw-man arguement that, while true, totally ignores the fact that it's true in all games, not just one. It's a flawed discussion from the git-go.
Bottom line:
After about 1 week that 'newbie' CAN and HAS BEEN PROVEN TO BE an asset to 0.0 alliances/corporations as a tackler or as an EWAR cruiser pilot. Yep... just ONE week and you can be a blackbird or celestis or Arbitrator pilot (leaving out the minmatar one because the Minny t1 ewar cruiser is a joke, at best). Or you can be a nice frig tackler.
Within a couple months that pilot can be in T2 ships and be almost on the same level in them as a 2-3 year vet, if they specialize. In 9 months, if they specialize, they can be nearly maxxed out in almost any T2 shiptype (short of a Command Ship) and absolutely be competitive with the veteran players. I was so were many folks I know. Bottom line is that the initial arguements by the OP are completely flawed. Also assuming that a new player has a hard time joining 0.0 corps/alliances is also flawed. 0.0 corps/alliances are spamming the recruitment channel CONSTANTLY looking for fresh blood to fill their ranks. Most have only 1 requirement: That the player NOT be on a trial account.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
1) true, I got in 0.0 alliance (not big) after two months
2) Umm don't want to argue, but in other games you won't have/need to fight a lvl 70 oponent with your lvl. 1 noob.
But in EVE, especially in 0.0 (but not limited to), you gonna face xx mil. SP players in pimped ships all the time, noob or not.
Umm, then you've misread my arguments as those of the OP.
1) I concur, providing your final statement. It doesn't really change what I said IMO, as any post-trial account will have more then 1mil skillpoints.
2) Yes, I agree with you. The OP was making a straw-man argument. I simply elaborated that he was making a very poor straw-man argument.
I don't see where our opinions disagree with one another. Perhaps there is a miscommunication somewhere here?
Then again, you don't have to leave highsec either...
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.