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  • baffbaff Member Posts: 9,457

     

    Originally posted by jason_webb


    2 - As for legal action on the part of the customer, as you have said yourself the goods would have to be flawed or non functioning and this is by no way the case. Even so with the small amounts involved, even in the UK he would have to bear the costs via small claims court as neither Blizzard or the retailer have done anything criminal, so neither the police or CPS would touch it.
    In the U.K., False Advertising is a criminal offence. Criminal offences are prosecuted by the Crown only. He might also wish to consult the Office of Fair Trading who, if they had recieved enough complaints would be free to apply further sanctions if they felt this was an endemic problem affecting the public at large rather than an isolated incident involving very few people.

    Under the Criminal Justice Bill, the Police are no longer allowed to use their discretion. They must take action on any complaint made. If he asked the Police to arrest the shop keeper, they would be bound to do so.

    His costs in Europe are unlikely to be higher than price of a couple of letters,  emails or phone calls. A reasonable expense in comparison to the £10-30 he could expect to recoup.

     

     

    In the U.S., this would be a civil offence and he would have to fund his own case, or if many other people had made similar complaints he could perhaps apply to the better Business Bureau to take up the matter on his behalf or a no win no fee lawyer to file a Class Action.

  • Pappy13Pappy13 Member Posts: 2,138

    Originally posted by baff


    I'm making a couple of assumptions both of which I feel are reasonable. 
    I am assuming the OP is not lying when he says he has been banned and has been unable to complete his free month's access.
    I'm assuming that even if Blizzard did have evidence, that the time and effort required for their retailer to get it from them, the sheer hassle of arranging a court case and the intial investment to fund it, all for a total re-imbursement of less than £20 makes the entire prospect utterly irrelevant.
     

    I am assuming the OP is not lying about being banned as well.  What I question is whether or not Blizzard had grounds for the ban.  If you are so eager to assume the OP is innocent, why are you taking the hard stand with Blizzard?  You don't think it likely that they had already produced the evidence that warrented the ban in the first place? 

    You might be right in that they just simply decide not to pursue it, but don't forget that Blizzard already has an extremely good legal team in place for just this sort of stuff.  They get paid regardless of whether they do anything or not, so really what does it cost them to supply the bank with justification to deny the refund?  Probably take about an hours worth of work for someone to assemble the evidence and send it off to the bank.  They might just do this type of thing on a daily basis for all we know.  Besides, it's not the money that is important to Blizzard, they already have plenty of that, it's their reputation they might wish to protect.

    Sorry but you are making an awfully big assumption that Blizzard will just let it go.  One guy getting a refund is no big deal, however I think it's safe to assume that there have been others since they have 9 million customers.  I would think to Blizzard it's a pretty big deal and they have resources to deal with it adequately.

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  • Pappy13Pappy13 Member Posts: 2,138
    Originally posted by baff


    Thanks for your encouraging remarks in the above post, I think it is very important to be the master of your own destiny. Blizzard does not pwn ju. No company does. The days of slavery are centuries past, if you are not satisfied with any of your products of services and the customer support is not jumpiong high enough when you bark, I firmly belive you should cancel your agreements and payments. Always negotiate from a position fo strength. In my opinion it is not wise to count on the goodwill alone of a total stranger to settle any disputes they may have with you. 



    I fully agree with this statement, however this is not a case of customer support not being helpful.  He was banned.  Obviously Blizzard feels that he somehow violated the terms of service which he agreed to.  No I don't wish to get into an argument about whether this is legally enforceable.  What is highly likely in my opinion is that they had some evidence to support this conclusion and could produce the evidence if they were so inclined.  I don't know for certain that they would, but I find it very presumptious to assume they wouldn't.

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  • baffbaff Member Posts: 9,457

    Blizzards legal team tend to fight rather larger abttles I thought, trying to shut down gold sellers etc. Fights that the company feels might return significant profits for them.

    A good legal team, is a very expensive resource. Not one to be wasted unproifitably or on tiny returns for the investment.

    Blizzards legal team cost $10,000's of dollars per hour. I can;t imagine them ever chasing a single end user for the purchase price of the game ever. For them to be able to do this profitably they would have to (successfully) prosecute each end user in less than second.

    Sorry but it doesn't add up.

    Even for a very junior member of Blizzards office staff to compile any evidence would cost Blizzard an hour at minimum wage. A sum of money larger than the profit they make from one sale.

    Blizzard is not a charitable institution who's purpose is to eradicate cheating or fair play in online games, it is a for profit company.

     

    Do I side against Blizzard? Not wholeheartedly, they have made an expensive product and would be fools not to take steps to protect their business and keep their "cheat conscious" customers happy. Nonetheless, no one should be placed personally out of pocket by Blizzards desire to make money. Good business benefits all party's not just one. If they feel they must cancel their arrangement with the OP, then for whatever reasons, however justifiable and holy, he should be re-imbursed.

    They can't have his money and him not have his game. That would be immoral.

     

     

    Incidently, I also feel there is plenty of scope for a Blizzard employee to make a mistake, or for their cheat detection systems to be faulty. How many times has Punkbuster ejected me from a server?

    At this point it is Customers Supports job to sort it out. The OP said, that he had not been cheating, and that Customer Support had not sorted it out. They are in this example being extremely unhelpful. Rahter than investigating apologising and promptly resolving his issue, they are doing what Customer Support operators the world over do, blaming him and not bothering.

    You see, just as it is not profitable to deal with each and every personal refund or return in court, it is also not profitable to spend too long resolving peoples issues. The Customer Support advisor has been given a list of quick and easy things he can resolve for people that do not take up more of his time than they are prepared to pay for per customer. If your complaint does not fit directly and easily inot this readily resolvable format, they would prefer to lose your custom than fork out for extra systems or operator time that costs more $ than they save.

  • Pappy13Pappy13 Member Posts: 2,138

    Originally posted by baff


    Blizzards legal team tend to fight rather larger abttles I thought, trying to shut down gold sellers etc. Fights that the company feels might return significant profits for them.
    A good legal team, is a very expensive resource. Not one to be wasted unproifitably or on tiny returns for the investment.
    Blizzards legal team cost $10,000's of dollars per hour. I can;t imagine them ever chasing a single end user for the purchase price of the game ever. For them to be able to do this profitably they would have to (successfully) prosecute each end user in less than second.
    Sorry but it doesn't add up.
    Even for a very junior member of Blizzards office staff to compile any evidence would cost Blizzard an hour at minimum wage. A sum of money larger than the profit they make from one sale.
    Blizzard is not a charitable institution who's purpose is to eradicate cheating or fair play in online games, it is a for profit company.
     
    Do I side against Blizzard? Not wholeheartedly, they have made an expensive product and would be fools not to take steps to protect their business and keep their "cheat conscious" customers happy. Nonetheless, no one should be placed personally out of pocket by Blizzards desire to make money. Good business benefits all party's not just one. If they feel they must cancel their arrangement with the OP, then for whatever reasons, however justifiable and holy, he should be re-imbursed.
    They can't have his money and him not have his game. That would be immoral.
     
     
    Incidently, I also feel there is plenty of scope for a Blizzard employee to make a mistake, or for their cheat detection systems to be faulty. How many times has Punkbuster ejected me from a server?
    Monetarily speaking it may not add up, but a company like Blizzard, who's reputation is impeccable, just might not like the idea of banks giving their customers refunds and making Blizzard look bad.  Blizzard's reputation is worth far more then 1 hours pay, believe me.

    Sure, they could have made a mistake, however you have to ask yourself which is the more likely scenario, that Blizzard made a mistake or that the OP is not being completely forthcoming?  That is the reason I asked for the character name and server, so that I could attempt to verify his claims that he was only lvl 11 and that he had no good items.  Why should he be unwilling to give that information if he's being completely honest?  Or perhaps the OP honestly has no clue why he was banned, yet he states quite clearly that he left the account unattended which leaves it open to speculation what could have happened while he was away.  I think those possibilities are far more likely than Blizzard just simply made a mistake, especially if he contested it and Blizzard stuck by their earlier banning.

    Perhaps it's easier for you to believe that big businesses simply make mistakes and figure they can't be touched and therefore can stick it to whomever they wish.  I on the other hand think it much more likely that big businesses go to great lengths to ensure a quality product and don't take something like bannings lightly.

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  • WikkedbowtieWikkedbowtie Member Posts: 494

    What you are suggesting the OP do Baff is called fraud. Paying for something and then stopping payment on the check or charge after it shows up is plain and simple fraud. If I buy a car, pay cash for it up front, then drive it into a wall, I can't take it back to the dealer and demand a refund. My stupidity led to me no longer haveing access to a working car, so the dealer is not at fault. The OP's story, though on a much smaller scale, is the same thing. He got what he paid for, did something stupid, and lost the priviledge to play the game.

  • baffbaff Member Posts: 9,457

    On the contrary, accepting payment and then not providing the service advertised is called fraud.

    The jails are not awash with people who claimed refunds.

     

    Your bank will not commit fraud for you on your behalf. You don't pay them that much. Cancelling your payment is called "cancelling your payment". Once payment is cancelled, ownership of the purchase returns to the retailer. If when he cancels his payment he does not make arrangements for the return of goods, he would then be a thief. Given that your card agency knows your name where you live, I do not suggest this.

     

    If you buy a car and it conks out 20 minutes down the road, beacuse the tank of petrol it was advertised as coming with has a leak in it, they either fix it or you get your refund. It makes no difference if the garage attendant thinks you put the leak in it yourself.

    If it's a case of your word against theirs, yours wins by default.

    We have a saying here, "the customer is always right". Our legal system, our consumer rights, adhere to this principle and are designed to err in the consumers favour. As they should be.  

     

    It isn't a "privilage" to play the game. It is a contractual obligation. Blizzard didn't "allow" him to play out of kindness. They charged him to. They are obliged to honour that contract or refund him.

  • baffbaff Member Posts: 9,457

     

    Originally posted by Pappy13


     
    Originally posted by baff


    Blizzards legal team tend to fight rather larger abttles I thought, trying to shut down gold sellers etc. Fights that the company feels might return significant profits for them.
    A good legal team, is a very expensive resource. Not one to be wasted unproifitably or on tiny returns for the investment.
    Blizzards legal team cost $10,000's of dollars per hour. I can;t imagine them ever chasing a single end user for the purchase price of the game ever. For them to be able to do this profitably they would have to (successfully) prosecute each end user in less than second.
    Sorry but it doesn't add up.
    Even for a very junior member of Blizzards office staff to compile any evidence would cost Blizzard an hour at minimum wage. A sum of money larger than the profit they make from one sale.
    Blizzard is not a charitable institution who's purpose is to eradicate cheating or fair play in online games, it is a for profit company.
     
    Do I side against Blizzard? Not wholeheartedly, they have made an expensive product and would be fools not to take steps to protect their business and keep their "cheat conscious" customers happy. Nonetheless, no one should be placed personally out of pocket by Blizzards desire to make money. Good business benefits all party's not just one. If they feel they must cancel their arrangement with the OP, then for whatever reasons, however justifiable and holy, he should be re-imbursed.
    They can't have his money and him not have his game. That would be immoral.
     
     
    Incidently, I also feel there is plenty of scope for a Blizzard employee to make a mistake, or for their cheat detection systems to be faulty. How many times has Punkbuster ejected me from a server?
    Monetarily speaking it may not add up, but a company like Blizzard, who's reputation is impeccable, just might not like the idea of banks giving their customers refunds and making Blizzard look bad.  Blizzard's reputation is worth far more then 1 hours pay, believe me.

     

    Sure, they could have made a mistake, however you have to ask yourself which is the more likely scenario, that Blizzard made a mistake or that the OP is not being completely forthcoming?  That is the reason I asked for the character name and server, so that I could attempt to verify his claims that he was only lvl 11 and that he had no good items.  Why should he be unwilling to give that information if he's being completely honest?  Or perhaps the OP honestly has no clue why he was banned, yet he states quite clearly that he left the account unattended which leaves it open to speculation what could have happened while he was away.  I think those possibilities are far more likely than Blizzard just simply made a mistake, especially if he contested it and Blizzard stuck by their earlier banning.

    Perhaps it's easier for you to believe that big businesses simply make mistakes and figure they can't be touched and therefore can stick it to whomever they wish.  I on the other hand think it much more likely that big businesses go to great lengths to ensure a quality product and don't take something like bannings lightly.

    Blizzard not giving it's customers refunds, makes it look bad. Not good.

     

    People prefer companies that refund them quickly easily and with the minimum of fuss. It makes them more confident when purchasing to know that they can take it back if they are not satisfied.

    "Remmington, shaves as close as a blade or your money back".

    or

    Remmington, you can count on us to sue any customer who returns the product.

    You decide.

     

     



    If their reputation was worth more than money, they would give away refunds without dispute instead of refusing all refunds as company policy.

    Brand loyalty is a means to an end. And that end is making money. Blizzard wants you to enjoy your products. It wants you to stay subscribed, it wants you to buy it's future products, and it want's you tell all your mates how good their products are............but, It's not much point having an impeccable reputation if you make a loss.

    It's a trade off.

    There is a man with a spreadsheet at Blizzard, an accountant, he has worked it all out. He knows exactly how much Blizzard is going to spend on customer services and product branding, how much it is going to cost them, and how much he expects it to gain them long term.  He has worked out a precise balance. 

     

    No matter how you justify it, you are calling the OP a liar. You aren't intrested in helping him. Why would he want to provide evidence to you? Were you thining of putting in a good word for him at Blizzard or something? No matter what he says, you already think he is lying. You already think Blizzard is completely trustworthy and he is not.

    My advise stands.

    Whether he has cheated or not. Get a refund. Cancel my game, I cancel your money. End of story.

     

     

    For the record I do think large institutions (it doesn't have to be business especially) are wide open to making errors.

    The more people you add into the chain, the greater the scope for error. I don't think Blizzard is especially reknowned for it, but since every institution does, I see no reason to believe that Blizzard hasn't, and this certainly isn't the first time I've heard this complaint on this forum.

    It's not an unreasonable suggestion to me. It's not beyond the realms of my imagination. And it certainly isn't so unheard of that I would instantly brand anyone who came out with it a liar.

      If there is a software error in the anti-cheat, do you really beleive that the person answering the phone is going to be able to spot it? Anti-cheat is by it's very nature constanlty updated. A side effect of updates in bugs. I can't think of a single anti-cheat that is not notorious for giving false errors. But the person you speak to at customer support doesn't make the anti-cheat. Neither does he even speak to those that do. Chances are he doesn't even work on the same continent. Quite frankly I don't have any confidence in the people you find in customer services at all. The bloke is reading from a flow chart.

  • WikkedbowtieWikkedbowtie Member Posts: 494

    No baff, it is fraud. He purchased something that can not be used again, it can't be returned. Anyone who posts on the forum should know that MMO retail codes are a one us thing. You can't try it out, decide you don't like it and then return it. If you think he is owed a refund why are you not telling him to go to the retailer?? Canceling payment or a chargeback is not the way to get a refund, especially when you've done something to make the thing unusable. WoW does not quarantee that you can do whatever you want for the first 30 days. They guarantee that everyone is allowed to use THEIR servers to play THEIR game as long as you follow the RULES. Break the rules, lose the privledge.

  • Pappy13Pappy13 Member Posts: 2,138
    Originally posted by baff


    Blizzard not giving it's customers refunds, makes it look bad. Not good.
    Depends on the reason.  You get banned, sorry no refund for you.
    "Remmington, shaves as close as a blade or your money back".
    or
    Remmington, you can count on us to sue any customer who returns the product.
    You decide.
    Blizzard doesn't have to sue anyone, all they have to do is dispute the refund and the onus falls back on the customer/bank/CC company to prove they deserve the refund.   You gave them your credit card willingly and you agreed to follow the rules of the game as part of your agreement to play the game.  You break the rules, they take away the game.  Simple as that.  The Credit Card company will refund your money, but they don't necessarily get the money back from Blizzard.  In most cases, it's the Credit Card company that eats the loss in this situation.
    No matter how you justify it, you are calling the OP a liar. 
    Either he's a liar or just mistaken.  Even the OP admits that he can't be 100% sure there was no cheating going on since he left his account unattended when there were other people around.  You're calling Blizzard a liar or mistaken.  Sorry, but I have more faith in a well respected company like Blizzard than I do in the OP who is someone I don't have the first clue about.  No disrespect to him, I just don't know him.
    You aren't intrested in helping him.
    Yes, I am, it's you who is not interested in helping him since HE DOES NOT WANT TO QUIT PLAYING WOW.  Where did he say he wished to stop playing?  You're advice is good IF he is in fact GUILTY of whatever he was banned of.  If he is INNOCENT, he should wait for Blizzard to investigate the situation and unban his account.  That way he can play again.  That is what he wants.  He has never claimed all he wanted was his money back.  That's you.  All you.
    My advise stands.
    Whether he has cheated or not. Get a refund. Cancel my game, I cancel your money. End of story.
    If he is guilty of cheating, I agree.  If he is INNOCENT then he should continue to work with Blizzard to get his account unbanned so that he can play again.  A last resort would be to get a refund.
    But the person you speak to at customer support doesn't make the anti-cheat. Neither does he even speak to those that do. Chances are he doesn't even work on the same continent. Quite frankly I don't have any confidence in the people you find in customer services at all. The bloke is reading from a flow chart.
    That is why speaking with customer support will do absolutely no good at all.  He must speak with the ones who banned him.  He's already started that conversation with his e-mail response.  If he doesn't hear back he should again inquire with an e-mail and find out if there is a phone number to call and discuss it.  Blizzard can and will unban your account if they feel they have made a mistake. If they don't, then get your money back, but you still won't be playing WoW unless you turn right around and buy another box from Blizzard.  I fail to see how that helps him.

    On a side note, below is the beginning of Blizzard's Terms of Service agreement that you must accept prior to logging into the game the first time and each time there is a patch.  It expressly states that once you agree to this, you are no longer eligible for a refund.  Again, I don't want to argue about whether or not this is legally enforceable, only that I find this language to suggest that a banned account is not eligible for a refund and I highly doubt they would simply pay a refund just to save the legal department a little bit of work.

    WORLD OF WARCRAFT®

    TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT

    Last Updated January 11, 2007

    YOU SHOULD CAREFULLY READ THE FOLLOWING WORLD OF WARCRAFT TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT (THE "TERMS OF USE" OR "AGREEMENT"). IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MUST CLICK "REJECT." IF YOU REJECT THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER FIRST PURCHASING THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT SOFTWARE, YOU MAY CALL (800)757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE. ONCE YOU AGREE TO THE TERMS OF USE AND THE END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT (EULA), YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ELIGIBLE FOR A REFUND.

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