No. I don't think the MMO era is dying. It's changing, but not dying. Just because you may not like or even recognize some of the changes that are going on does not mean that the "era is dying".
You want to know what "era" is dying? Analog TV broadcasting.
SWG's problem wasn't that it was simplified, it's because it was turned into an arcade / console type game. LOTRO's problem isn't that it's casual friendly, it's due to an IP that is so narrow minded that it doesn't allow for the variety of game play that is expected in a modern MMO. You know, things like a large variety of classes and a large variety of skills for those classes. A large world with a lot of exploration factored in. Hell, just some freaking magic skills that are half way fun. Where is the invisibilty, water breathing, levitate, shape changing, teleports, summoning spells......etc that make a fantasy game so cool? They don't exist thanks to the friggin IP.
Finally someone that isnt from WoW. Todays mmorpgs are friggin stupid. WoW did something HORRIBLE to the mmorpg market and that was to bring in all the 12 year old cs kiddies and like 5-9 milion of em!!! Since then the market has had a totally new aprouch. Nothing new nor experimental since as stated earlier a well trained monkey is able to play em well. Doubt they even have to be trained! I feel that the last few years of my mmorpg watching has been a disaster! eq1, daoc, ao, shadowbane, and Ragnarok Online for me ^^. My god was that awesome adventures we all look back at with a twinkle in our eyes. Too bad were probably NEVER gonna experience it again... Im hoping for Aion to be the new L2 becose i need some good hardcore pvp!
This is exactly what I have been saying the whole time! The CS fuckshits graduated to WoW, and now, because of their numbers, devs are afraid to try anything different. They need to take risks, and bury the level system under the ground. and bake me some cookies as an apology, you know, those sugar cookies with the colorful but translucent sprinkles? Those are good.
Not true at all. CS and WoW have -completely- different playerbases--and quite frankly, there were never as many CS players as their are WoW players, so they can't possibly be responsible for WoW's insane population.
The sad thing is that it's popular to bash the most prominent game--or most popular anything. It's the same as people who bash the US for no reason (there are genuine reasons to, but the people that do generally don't use them.)
Before WoW, it was in vogue to bash EverQuest. After the "next WoW," it'll be something else.
And no, developers aren't afraid to try something different "because" of WoW. WoW did not create developer hesitation to try something new--that's been around for as LONG as there have been video games. People are simply trying to recreate the WoW formula, which recreated the EverQuest formula, and so on. But none of them have been as popular. Why? Because they're not putting any real thought into it, which is definitely not what Blizzard did.
The thing about the CS and WoW having diffrent playerbases? NOT TRUE!
Check most of the big CS site forums.. they all have WoW sections since most of em play it!
I can't dismiss that Blizzard has opened the door to millions of new MMOers, and I have no qualms with WoW as it stands, but to say that it has shown some new light to developers is simply crazy. There is absolutely nothing innovative about WoW. All that they have shown is that by simplifying a game to a point that can appeal to a mass audiance, you end up with a mass audiance.
I'm so sick of all this B.S. from the extreme hard-right side of MMO gamers.. the so called "hardcore." They were around in the early days of the MMORPG. When games were a lot more tough and unforgiving. They are now the very loud and very vocal minority. They feel as if they are right and all the new MMORPG players are wrong or stupid or weak etc. etc.etc. They feel that they are special because they've been banging through MMOs for a long time. You are not special. You are the minority. Truth is, the genre has changed. Some of us old school MMO vets like me have changed with it and learned to enjoy the more casual aspects of our favorite MMOs. You "hardcore" seem to cling to the bygone days of old, somehow expecting that they'll come back. They won't. It's plain and simple. You have ONE game in development that promises to be an "old school" experience, and most would consider that game to be vaporware with no real chance of release. Besides that, there is one game out there that is still "hardcore" and follows the old school set of rules, EVE, and I know a lot of you enjoy it. Great, awesome, I'm happy for you.
Now shut the f*#$ up. I know there are a lot of newer MMO players that defend their modern-generation games with just as much zealotry and bias as you "old school" vets who do nothing but spit the same trash as the three posters before you did. (McDonalds, Brittney Spears, Chinese Gold farmers anyone?) Seriously. Get over it. Play EVE, hope for Darkfall, or move on. All this WoW bashing and "carebear" crap and "linear sucks this" and "linear sucks that" bull sh!t is annoying, childish, and just plan stupid. If you really are so "mature" and want games with more "challenge" that take more "intelligence" then you should learn to post with intelligence, maturity... or is that too challenging? The younger generation MMO players are just as guilty of immaturity and stupidity as they exhaustively defend their MMO of choice from the "hardcore" zealots. I know it won't end, I know ya'll don't care. You enjoy bickering back and forth about this that and the other thing, pretending as you type behind your anonymous screen name that you are more wise and intelligent then the poster before you, as if your opinion carries more weight. This thread is ridiculous. I petition for it to be closed. It has run its course and is no longer useful or productive (if it ever was.) The FACT is, there are more people playing MMOs today then there ever was before. Does this mean the MMO era is dying? No, no it does not.
Sad but true i admit im one of the oldies still hoping and yeah its hopeless i know.. Exellent post!
SWG's problem wasn't that it was simplified, it's because it was turned into an arcade / console type game. LOTRO's problem isn't that it's casual friendly, it's due to an IP that is so narrow minded that it doesn't allow for the variety of game play that is expected in a modern MMO. You know, things like a large variety of classes and a large variety of skills for those classes. A large world with a lot of exploration factored in. Hell, just some freaking magic skills that are half way fun. Where is the invisibilty, water breathing, levitate, shape changing, teleports, summoning spells......etc that make a fantasy game so cool? They don't exist thanks to the friggin IP.
Finally someone that isnt from WoW. Todays mmorpgs are friggin stupid. WoW did something HORRIBLE to the mmorpg market and that was to bring in all the 12 year old cs kiddies and like 5-9 milion of em!!! Since then the market has had a totally new aprouch. Nothing new nor experimental since as stated earlier a well trained monkey is able to play em well. Doubt they even have to be trained! I feel that the last few years of my mmorpg watching has been a disaster! eq1, daoc, ao, shadowbane, and Ragnarok Online for me ^^. My god was that awesome adventures we all look back at with a twinkle in our eyes. Too bad were probably NEVER gonna experience it again... Im hoping for Aion to be the new L2 becose i need some good hardcore pvp!
This is exactly what I have been saying the whole time! The CS fuckshits graduated to WoW, and now, because of their numbers, devs are afraid to try anything different. They need to take risks, and bury the level system under the ground. and bake me some cookies as an apology, you know, those sugar cookies with the colorful but translucent sprinkles? Those are good.
Not true at all. CS and WoW have -completely- different playerbases--and quite frankly, there were never as many CS players as their are WoW players, so they can't possibly be responsible for WoW's insane population.
The sad thing is that it's popular to bash the most prominent game--or most popular anything. It's the same as people who bash the US for no reason (there are genuine reasons to, but the people that do generally don't use them.)
Before WoW, it was in vogue to bash EverQuest. After the "next WoW," it'll be something else.
And no, developers aren't afraid to try something different "because" of WoW. WoW did not create developer hesitation to try something new--that's been around for as LONG as there have been video games. People are simply trying to recreate the WoW formula, which recreated the EverQuest formula, and so on. But none of them have been as popular. Why? Because they're not putting any real thought into it, which is definitely not what Blizzard did.
The thing about the CS and WoW having diffrent playerbases? NOT TRUE!
Check most of the big CS site forums.. they all have WoW sections since most of em play it!
A lot of forums--especially gaming forums--have WoW or other unrelated, off-topic sections. Not just CS forums. And no, there isn't an insane amount of overlap between the playerbases that you can prove one way or another. You're making an unfounded assertion.
I can't dismiss that Blizzard has opened the door to millions of new MMOers, and I have no qualms with WoW as it stands, but to say that it has shown some new light to developers is simply crazy. There is absolutely nothing innovative about WoW. All that they have shown is that by simplifying a game to a point that can appeal to a mass audiance, you end up with a mass audiance.
Again--you end up arguing contradictory things. If WoW did nothing innovative, nothing special--why did people flock to it, rather than any other random game? It's because people LIKE the world Blizzard created.
I'm sorry that people didn't flock to whatever game YOU happen to love, but given your responses to WoW, you'd just end up hating that as well.
And for the record--every major, reputable software developer makes their games for the "mass audience." No developer, especially one spending such a large amount of money, is going to focus on capturing the attention of a small but very devoted playerbase. To do so , you end up with tiny population games. Much like EVE was in the beginning of its life--but then they expanded it and made it more friendly to new players, adding "mass appeal" and the population has increased, and CCP makes more money.
It's not so much that WoW has "shown the light" to developers--it's shown the light to their publishers. The companies who usually pay for development and marketing. They're not going to invest the money and time required to develop an awesome, complicated game without a significant chance of it paying off.
WoW has shown publishers that MMOs can and are profitable in the mainstream, which is why you see so many other MMOs popping up now--they want a piece of the pie. It's as simple as that.
I'm so sick of all this B.S. from the extreme hard-right side of MMO gamers.. the so called "hardcore." They were around in the early days of the MMORPG. When games were a lot more tough and unforgiving. They are now the very loud and very vocal minority. They feel as if they are right and all the new MMORPG players are wrong or stupid or weak etc. etc.etc. They feel that they are special because they've been banging through MMOs for a long time. You are not special. You are the minority. Truth is, the genre has changed. Some of us old school MMO vets like me have changed with it and learned to enjoy the more casual aspects of our favorite MMOs. You "hardcore" seem to cling to the bygone days of old, somehow expecting that they'll come back. They won't. It's plain and simple. You have ONE game in development that promises to be an "old school" experience, and most would consider that game to be vaporware with no real chance of release. Besides that, there is one game out there that is still "hardcore" and follows the old school set of rules, EVE, and I know a lot of you enjoy it. Great, awesome, I'm happy for you.
Now shut the f*#$ up. I know there are a lot of newer MMO players that defend their modern-generation games with just as much zealotry and bias as you "old school" vets who do nothing but spit the same trash as the three posters before you did. (McDonalds, Brittney Spears, Chinese Gold farmers anyone?) Seriously. Get over it. Play EVE, hope for Darkfall, or move on. All this WoW bashing and "carebear" crap and "linear sucks this" and "linear sucks that" bull sh!t is annoying, childish, and just plan stupid. If you really are so "mature" and want games with more "challenge" that take more "intelligence" then you should learn to post with intelligence, maturity... or is that too challenging? The younger generation MMO players are just as guilty of immaturity and stupidity as they exhaustively defend their MMO of choice from the "hardcore" zealots. I know it won't end, I know ya'll don't care. You enjoy bickering back and forth about this that and the other thing, pretending as you type behind your anonymous screen name that you are more wise and intelligent then the poster before you, as if your opinion carries more weight. This thread is ridiculous. I petition for it to be closed. It has run its course and is no longer useful or productive (if it ever was.) The FACT is, there are more people playing MMOs today then there ever was before. Does this mean the MMO era is dying? No, no it does not.
I'm so sick of all this B.S. from the extreme hard-right side of MMO gamers.. the so called "hardcore." The FACT is, there are more people playing MMOs today then there ever was before. Does this mean the MMO era is dying? No, no it does not.
+1 for you. Complete agreement. Like you, I've been around since the begining and instead of dwelling in the past, I've been having fun in the present with current MMOs and will continue to have fun with future MMOs. Some of you people sound like 80 yr olds, complaining how powersteering ruined automobiles;)
Just because a person enjoyed UO, doesn't make them an authority on anything. All it proves is that they tolerated a whole lot more than most people would. Stick anyone today with all the MMOs we have in front of UO circa 97 and guess how many would play? I'd say none.
I can't dismiss that Blizzard has opened the door to millions of new MMOers, and I have no qualms with WoW as it stands, but to say that it has shown some new light to developers is simply crazy. There is absolutely nothing innovative about WoW. All that they have shown is that by simplifying a game to a point that can appeal to a mass audiance, you end up with a mass audiance.
Again--you end up arguing contradictory things. If WoW did nothing innovative, nothing special--why did people flock to it, rather than any other random game? It's because people LIKE the world Blizzard created.
I'm sorry that people didn't flock to whatever game YOU happen to love, but given your responses to WoW, you'd just end up hating that as well.
And for the record--every major, reputable software developer makes their games for the "mass audience." No developer, especially one spending such a large amount of money, is going to focus on capturing the attention of a small but very devoted playerbase. To do so , you end up with tiny population games. Much like EVE was in the beginning of its life--but then they expanded it and made it more friendly to new players, adding "mass appeal" and the population has increased, and CCP makes more money.
It's not so much that WoW has "shown the light" to developers--it's shown the light to their publishers. The companies who usually pay for development and marketing. They're not going to invest the money and time required to develop an awesome, complicated game without a significant chance of it paying off.
WoW has shown publishers that MMOs can and are profitable in the mainstream, which is why you see so many other MMOs popping up now--they want a piece of the pie. It's as simple as that.
Any mmorpg that had that kind of HUGE marketing is bond to have a enourmous playerbase.. Plus its the oh so popular warcraft series.. Taking that WoW spent about 30 times as much money than other mmorpgs to market their game its pretty obvius it will succeed! Not alot of ppl think of that.
I can't dismiss that Blizzard has opened the door to millions of new MMOers, and I have no qualms with WoW as it stands, but to say that it has shown some new light to developers is simply crazy. There is absolutely nothing innovative about WoW. All that they have shown is that by simplifying a game to a point that can appeal to a mass audiance, you end up with a mass audiance.
Again--you end up arguing contradictory things. If WoW did nothing innovative, nothing special--why did people flock to it, rather than any other random game? It's because people LIKE the world Blizzard created.
I'm sorry that people didn't flock to whatever game YOU happen to love, but given your responses to WoW, you'd just end up hating that as well.
And for the record--every major, reputable software developer makes their games for the "mass audience." No developer, especially one spending such a large amount of money, is going to focus on capturing the attention of a small but very devoted playerbase. To do so , you end up with tiny population games. Much like EVE was in the beginning of its life--but then they expanded it and made it more friendly to new players, adding "mass appeal" and the population has increased, and CCP makes more money.
It's not so much that WoW has "shown the light" to developers--it's shown the light to their publishers. The companies who usually pay for development and marketing. They're not going to invest the money and time required to develop an awesome, complicated game without a significant chance of it paying off.
WoW has shown publishers that MMOs can and are profitable in the mainstream, which is why you see so many other MMOs popping up now--they want a piece of the pie. It's as simple as that.
My game of choice at the moment is World of Warcraft, but I can voice my opinion of the matter.
I'm not at all being an advocate against WoW, whose reputation you seem adamant on thinking I'm trying to tarnish (Never even said it was a bad game ), I'm trying to voice an opinion that simplifying gaming mechanics like WoW did isn't the only way of drawing in gamers. I, and many others, are fans of complicated and thought-provoking mechanics that oft-times have do-or-die consequences and even sometimes forget to include the do-or.
My original point, which somehow got dragged into an "I hate you WoW-basher" rant, is that I'd rather have a developer make games based off of what is requested by those of us that are now the vocal minority, than simply try, every time, to conform to the "WoW-clone" or "Insert-Trendy-Game-Name-That-Doesn't-Ruffle-Your-Feathers Clone" fever and test new waters.
Its 5am and I'm losing my train of thought, so hopefully you catch that I'm not trying to hurt your game here.
Any mmorpg that had that kind of HUGE marketing is bond to have a enourmous playerbase.. Plus its the oh so popular warcraft series.. Taking that WoW spent about 30 times as much money than other mmorpgs to market their game its pretty obvius it will succeed! Not alot of ppl think of that.
It's not just "marketing" that make people play the game. It might make people interested in it--and check it out, but no amount of advertising forces people to play something they don't like.
Whether you want to believe it or not, Blizzard has a reputation for making games of the highest quality--not throwing endless amounts of money and forcing people to play.
The vast majority of people I see bashing WoW are the same types who continually argue about consoles. Resentful that whatever they represent (EQ2, PS3, whatever you prefer) doesn't represent the majority share in the market. And because they don't, naturally their opposition is of lower quality? No.
You're making baseless assumptions--that WoW spent more than NCSoft marketing Guild Wars, or City of Heroes--etc. There were about the same amount of publisher-created hype around those games, and yet WoW's was much more effective. Why?
Because people like the games Blizzard makes--Warcraft, as you said, is popular. For a reason. Not because they advertised so much.
I'm not a particular fan of World of Warcraft. I played it, yes, but I quit. I got what I wanted out of it. However, seeing people mindlessly rant about how "horrible" a game it is when they haven't played it, didn't understand it, or are resentful of its success is something I won't tolerate.
I would not say it is dying. That fact one game brought out several million players, would suggest otherwise. I suspect MMO, are following a darwinin evolution path. New games show up all the time (Mutations) Some are sucessful (Benificial mutations), Some fail (bad mutations) Not to mention the enviroment is changing. Back in the days when UO was big, most people into those sort of games were younger, had less responsibilites, and more disposable time. Now 10 years later the demographics of gameplayers have changed, you still have a lot of young players with plenty of time, but now you have a lot of older players. One who have families and other reponsibilites competing for time. So now a new game comes out (WOW) which is a mutations of the other MMO's but it mutation makes it easier and more accesable to those who don't have huge amounts of time to devote to it.
I can't dismiss that Blizzard has opened the door to millions of new MMOers, and I have no qualms with WoW as it stands, but to say that it has shown some new light to developers is simply crazy. There is absolutely nothing innovative about WoW. All that they have shown is that by simplifying a game to a point that can appeal to a mass audiance, you end up with a mass audiance.
Again--you end up arguing contradictory things. If WoW did nothing innovative, nothing special--why did people flock to it, rather than any other random game? It's because people LIKE the world Blizzard created.
I'm sorry that people didn't flock to whatever game YOU happen to love, but given your responses to WoW, you'd just end up hating that as well.
And for the record--every major, reputable software developer makes their games for the "mass audience." No developer, especially one spending such a large amount of money, is going to focus on capturing the attention of a small but very devoted playerbase. To do so , you end up with tiny population games. Much like EVE was in the beginning of its life--but then they expanded it and made it more friendly to new players, adding "mass appeal" and the population has increased, and CCP makes more money.
It's not so much that WoW has "shown the light" to developers--it's shown the light to their publishers. The companies who usually pay for development and marketing. They're not going to invest the money and time required to develop an awesome, complicated game without a significant chance of it paying off.
WoW has shown publishers that MMOs can and are profitable in the mainstream, which is why you see so many other MMOs popping up now--they want a piece of the pie. It's as simple as that.
My game of choice at the moment is World of Warcraft, but I can voice my opinion of the matter.
I'm not at all being an advocate against WoW, whose reputation you seem adamant on thinking I'm trying to tarnish (Never even said it was a bad game ), I'm trying to voice an opinion that simplifying gaming mechanics like WoW did isn't the only way of drawing in gamers. I, and many others, are fans of complicated and thought-provoking mechanics that oft-times have do-or-die consequences and even sometimes forget to include the do-or.
My original point, which somehow got dragged into an "I hate you WoW-basher" rant, is that I'd rather have a developer make games based off of what is requested by those of us that are now the vocal minority, than simply try, every time, to conform to the "WoW-clone" or "Insert-Trendy-Game-Name-That-Doesn't-Ruffle-Your-Feathers Clone" fever and test new waters.
Its 5am and I'm losing my train of thought, so hopefully you catch that I'm not trying to hurt your game here.
I can respect that. I just don't agree that WoW "simplified" game mechanics. They chose to make certain features that few people liked, more user friendly.
What are some of the major turn-offs of other once-popular MMOs? I'll take City of Heroes, EverQuest and Final Fantasy XI as an example.
Most people hate harsh death penalties. In CoH, you'd get an experience debt you'd have to earn off, making leveling more slow and increasing the grind. In EQ and FFXI, you'd actually LOSE experience for dying, and in FFXI you'd lose experience -and- get a debt.
Put that together with the fact that you couldn't solo in FFXI (and if you were swarmed due to lag or any other circumstance), dying at the later stages basically prevented you from leveling up.
These harsh penalties do weed out the inexperienced players, but prevent potential good players from playing.
How does WoW handle it? As you know, there's no real penalty for death other than having your equipment degrade and the inconvenience of walking back to your corpse.
Is this a "simplified" mechanic from other games? No. It's just a choice they made so that they wouldn't needlessly turn people off from playing their game.
Another example is solo'ing. WoW is the first mainstream MMO where it is actually feasible to solo all the way up to max level. And you get people that want to do so--even though it's an MMO. People say that makes WoW too easy. That it fills it up with idiots.
However, these people who only solo and can't/don't get along with other players hurt themselves because they can't do group quests and can't get high-level dungeon equipment or PVP effectively. Is this a simplified feature? No. It allows people to solo but greatly REWARDS group efforts.
This is a major mistake that FFXI fell into, that COH fell into, that D&D Online fell into--I see it all the time. It's not streamlining the game for mass appeal. It's making the game less annoying in several factors that make people actually WANT to play it, and have fun, rather than suffer through it.
I can't dismiss that Blizzard has opened the door to millions of new MMOers, and I have no qualms with WoW as it stands, but to say that it has shown some new light to developers is simply crazy. There is absolutely nothing innovative about WoW. All that they have shown is that by simplifying a game to a point that can appeal to a mass audiance, you end up with a mass audiance.
I look at is this way.
Q - How many of those new players WoW has brought in have gone on to play other MMO’s?
A- Not many.
Q – How many players from other MMO’s has WoW absorbed, and then subsequently retired from MMO’s altogether?
A – Lots.
I still maintain that in North America and Europe most WoW subscribers will ultimately move to on line console gaming and leave the MMO sphere entirely. I.E. rather then serving as a gateway for people into MMO’s it will serve as a gateway for people who already played MMO’s to migrate to services like X-Box live.
I can't dismiss that Blizzard has opened the door to millions of new MMOers, and I have no qualms with WoW as it stands, but to say that it has shown some new light to developers is simply crazy. There is absolutely nothing innovative about WoW. All that they have shown is that by simplifying a game to a point that can appeal to a mass audiance, you end up with a mass audiance.
I look at is this way.
Q - How many of those new players WoW has brought in have gone on to play other MMO’s?
A- Not many.
Q – How many players from other MMO’s has WoW absorbed, and then subsequently retired from MMO’s altogether?
A – Lots.
I still maintain that in North America and Europe most WoW subscribers will ultimately move to on line console gaming and leave the MMO sphere entirely. I.E. rather then serving as a gateway for people into MMO’s it will serve as a gateway for people who already played MMO’s to migrate to services like X-Box live.
And your reason for thinking this? The majority of people I played with in WoW--and I'm talking about dedicated players--are dedicated PC gamers or even dedicated MMO players.
You can't logically argue that WoW is somehow inferior to its competitors, when it manages to "absorb other MMO's players." Something about the game is apparently making them want to quit their other MMO and join WoW. That something is not advertising or hype. It's their decision based on what they think is fun.
So what is your factual basis for believing "WoW turns MMO gamers into console gamers"?
Any mmorpg that had that kind of HUGE marketing is bond to have a enourmous playerbase.. Plus its the oh so popular warcraft series.. Taking that WoW spent about 30 times as much money than other mmorpgs to market their game its pretty obvius it will succeed! Not alot of ppl think of that.
It's not just "marketing" that make people play the game. It might make people interested in it--and check it out, but no amount of advertising forces people to play something they don't like.
Whether you want to believe it or not, Blizzard has a reputation for making games of the highest quality--not throwing endless amounts of money and forcing people to play.
The vast majority of people I see bashing WoW are the same types who continually argue about consoles. Resentful that whatever they represent (EQ2, PS3, whatever you prefer) doesn't represent the majority share in the market. And because they don't, naturally their opposition is of lower quality? No.
You're making baseless assumptions--that WoW spent more than NCSoft marketing Guild Wars, or City of Heroes--etc. There were about the same amount of publisher-created hype around those games, and yet WoW's was much more effective. Why?
Because people like the games Blizzard makes--Warcraft, as you said, is popular. For a reason. Not because they advertised so much.
I'm not a particular fan of World of Warcraft. I played it, yes, but I quit. I got what I wanted out of it. However, seeing people mindlessly rant about how "horrible" a game it is when they haven't played it, didn't understand it, or are resentful of its success is something I won't tolerate.
You think marketing has nothing to do with it? WoWs advertising cost more than it cost to make Lineage2 for godsake! Its one of the largest adverticement fund ever spent on a mmorpg.. No wait it IS the largest amount ever spent and the first mmorpg ever to have a tv commercian in nearly every country in europe and thru out the us! Belive me it makes a BIG diffrence! You dont get 9 mil players if u dont advertice like hell or release it in asia. Thats a Fact!
To answer Alea (its closing time and I'm off to the barracks so I'm typing out the door. ), my reasons for calling WoW a simplified game are many and may not all make much sense. Some of it may tie into my mind's version of fact and some may just be bitter ramblings. I'll have more time to respond and I feel we've strayed from the original intent of the thread but if you'd like my shot at explaining it send me a PM and I'll do my best!
Any mmorpg that had that kind of HUGE marketing is bond to have a enourmous playerbase.. Plus its the oh so popular warcraft series.. Taking that WoW spent about 30 times as much money than other mmorpgs to market their game its pretty obvius it will succeed! Not alot of ppl think of that.
It's not just "marketing" that make people play the game. It might make people interested in it--and check it out, but no amount of advertising forces people to play something they don't like.
Whether you want to believe it or not, Blizzard has a reputation for making games of the highest quality--not throwing endless amounts of money and forcing people to play.
The vast majority of people I see bashing WoW are the same types who continually argue about consoles. Resentful that whatever they represent (EQ2, PS3, whatever you prefer) doesn't represent the majority share in the market. And because they don't, naturally their opposition is of lower quality? No.
You're making baseless assumptions--that WoW spent more than NCSoft marketing Guild Wars, or City of Heroes--etc. There were about the same amount of publisher-created hype around those games, and yet WoW's was much more effective. Why?
Because people like the games Blizzard makes--Warcraft, as you said, is popular. For a reason. Not because they advertised so much.
I'm not a particular fan of World of Warcraft. I played it, yes, but I quit. I got what I wanted out of it. However, seeing people mindlessly rant about how "horrible" a game it is when they haven't played it, didn't understand it, or are resentful of its success is something I won't tolerate.
You think marketing has nothing to do with it? WoWs advertising cost more than it cost to make Lineage2 for godsake! Its one of the largest adverticement fund ever spent on a mmorpg.. No wait it IS the largest amount ever spent and the first mmorpg ever to have a tv commercian in nearly every country in europe and thru out the us! Belive me it makes a BIG diffrence! You dont get 9 mil players if u dont advertice like hell or release it in asia. Thats a Fact!
Like I said--marketing may encourage people to try a game, but all it does is let people know of its existence--no amount of marketing will make people continue to play a bad game. It's their continued, large subscription numbers that are advertised--the people they're able to KEEP playing--not the copies sold, that people tout.
For the record, I never have been nor will I ever be a harcore, 8 hour a day, MMO gamer. That was my single biggest complaint when it came to older MMO's.
Having said that, I honestly don't like these newer MMO's. It's not the fact that they're too casual with time requirements, rather, it's the fact that they're extremely linear and simplified. Is that a bad thing? Well, that depends. When the entire genre (almost) is made up of these types of MMO's, then it is definately a bad thing. Give us some diversity. I don't have a problem with WOW (or it's clones) being out there in the market, but I do have a problem with the ENTIRE genre following that same path.
Seriously, if the current MMO genre was a more accurate representation of the MMO player base, we wouldn't have nearly the amount of complaints. Theres a market for open ended, sandbox style, skill based MMO's, no matter what people say or how many times they say it. If you don't like those types of games thats fine, just recognize that others do and be thankful that you have MORE than enough class/level based, linear, quest driven MMO's.
Like I said--marketing may encourage people to try a game, but all it does is let people know of its existence--no amount of marketing will make people continue to play a bad game. It's their continued, large subscription numbers that are advertised--the people they're able to KEEP playing--not the copies sold, that people tout.
People who use the excuse that "loads of people are playing WOW due to marketing" really don't understanbd marketing. MMOs are a subscription service. Marketing informs and educates. It can not interest someone in downloading a trial. If someone goes on and plays for a year after that, its the GAME that convinces them and nothing more. WOW is a damn good game and thats why people are playing. Blizzard hardly marketed the game at all in the beginning. It didn't even kick in until 6 months, because they couldn't handle the intial influx of players. It was ALL word of mouth and amazing reviews. Marketing can't buy reviews from every single reputable source. EQ2 was marketed so much more during release and had a far bigger name in the MMO scene. SWG has the biggest license in history and it didn't do them any good.. You can't trick people into playing a MMO.
Eve could have all the marketing in the world and it wouldn't get most people past the 1st few hours.
True, there are many potentially good MMOs coming out in the next couple of years but does anyone else get a feeling that MMOs today are just plain crap? I dont know...Im getting that feeling. Anyone else feeling this way?
Well if mmos don't go back to there true nature(lol fun anybody?) They will die out in the next few years but i guess we will have to see what is in store for 2008 releases.
Playing: Everthing Played: DAoC,AC2,EvE,SWG,WAR,MXO,CoX,EQ2,L2,LOTRO,SB,UO,WoW. I have played every MMO that has ever come out.
Comments
In response to the OP's question:
No. I don't think the MMO era is dying. It's changing, but not dying. Just because you may not like or even recognize some of the changes that are going on does not mean that the "era is dying".
You want to know what "era" is dying? Analog TV broadcasting.
Finally someone that isnt from WoW. Todays mmorpgs are friggin stupid. WoW did something HORRIBLE to the mmorpg market and that was to bring in all the 12 year old cs kiddies and like 5-9 milion of em!!! Since then the market has had a totally new aprouch. Nothing new nor experimental since as stated earlier a well trained monkey is able to play em well. Doubt they even have to be trained! I feel that the last few years of my mmorpg watching has been a disaster! eq1, daoc, ao, shadowbane, and Ragnarok Online for me ^^. My god was that awesome adventures we all look back at with a twinkle in our eyes. Too bad were probably NEVER gonna experience it again...
Im hoping for Aion to be the new L2 becose i need some good hardcore pvp!
This is exactly what I have been saying the whole time! The CS fuckshits graduated to WoW, and now, because of their numbers, devs are afraid to try anything different. They need to take risks, and bury the level system under the ground. and bake me some cookies as an apology, you know, those sugar cookies with the colorful but translucent sprinkles? Those are good.
Not true at all. CS and WoW have -completely- different playerbases--and quite frankly, there were never as many CS players as their are WoW players, so they can't possibly be responsible for WoW's insane population.
The sad thing is that it's popular to bash the most prominent game--or most popular anything. It's the same as people who bash the US for no reason (there are genuine reasons to, but the people that do generally don't use them.)
Before WoW, it was in vogue to bash EverQuest. After the "next WoW," it'll be something else.
And no, developers aren't afraid to try something different "because" of WoW. WoW did not create developer hesitation to try something new--that's been around for as LONG as there have been video games. People are simply trying to recreate the WoW formula, which recreated the EverQuest formula, and so on. But none of them have been as popular. Why? Because they're not putting any real thought into it, which is definitely not what Blizzard did.
The thing about the CS and WoW having diffrent playerbases? NOT TRUE!Check most of the big CS site forums.. they all have WoW sections since most of em play it!
Brilliant! Please raise my children!
Sad but true i admit im one of the oldies still hoping and yeah its hopeless i know.. Exellent post!
MMO's aren't dying, but they get more boring, simple, and watered-down every time one is released. End of story.
Finally someone that isnt from WoW. Todays mmorpgs are friggin stupid. WoW did something HORRIBLE to the mmorpg market and that was to bring in all the 12 year old cs kiddies and like 5-9 milion of em!!! Since then the market has had a totally new aprouch. Nothing new nor experimental since as stated earlier a well trained monkey is able to play em well. Doubt they even have to be trained! I feel that the last few years of my mmorpg watching has been a disaster! eq1, daoc, ao, shadowbane, and Ragnarok Online for me ^^. My god was that awesome adventures we all look back at with a twinkle in our eyes. Too bad were probably NEVER gonna experience it again...
Im hoping for Aion to be the new L2 becose i need some good hardcore pvp!
This is exactly what I have been saying the whole time! The CS fuckshits graduated to WoW, and now, because of their numbers, devs are afraid to try anything different. They need to take risks, and bury the level system under the ground. and bake me some cookies as an apology, you know, those sugar cookies with the colorful but translucent sprinkles? Those are good.
Not true at all. CS and WoW have -completely- different playerbases--and quite frankly, there were never as many CS players as their are WoW players, so they can't possibly be responsible for WoW's insane population.
The sad thing is that it's popular to bash the most prominent game--or most popular anything. It's the same as people who bash the US for no reason (there are genuine reasons to, but the people that do generally don't use them.)
Before WoW, it was in vogue to bash EverQuest. After the "next WoW," it'll be something else.
And no, developers aren't afraid to try something different "because" of WoW. WoW did not create developer hesitation to try something new--that's been around for as LONG as there have been video games. People are simply trying to recreate the WoW formula, which recreated the EverQuest formula, and so on. But none of them have been as popular. Why? Because they're not putting any real thought into it, which is definitely not what Blizzard did.
The thing about the CS and WoW having diffrent playerbases? NOT TRUE!Check most of the big CS site forums.. they all have WoW sections since most of em play it!
A lot of forums--especially gaming forums--have WoW or other unrelated, off-topic sections. Not just CS forums. And no, there isn't an insane amount of overlap between the playerbases that you can prove one way or another. You're making an unfounded assertion.
its not dieing cuz it has been dead for awhile now
Again--you end up arguing contradictory things. If WoW did nothing innovative, nothing special--why did people flock to it, rather than any other random game? It's because people LIKE the world Blizzard created.
I'm sorry that people didn't flock to whatever game YOU happen to love, but given your responses to WoW, you'd just end up hating that as well.
And for the record--every major, reputable software developer makes their games for the "mass audience." No developer, especially one spending such a large amount of money, is going to focus on capturing the attention of a small but very devoted playerbase. To do so , you end up with tiny population games. Much like EVE was in the beginning of its life--but then they expanded it and made it more friendly to new players, adding "mass appeal" and the population has increased, and CCP makes more money.
It's not so much that WoW has "shown the light" to developers--it's shown the light to their publishers. The companies who usually pay for development and marketing. They're not going to invest the money and time required to develop an awesome, complicated game without a significant chance of it paying off.
WoW has shown publishers that MMOs can and are profitable in the mainstream, which is why you see so many other MMOs popping up now--they want a piece of the pie. It's as simple as that.
Well said.
+1 for you. Complete agreement. Like you, I've been around since the begining and instead of dwelling in the past, I've been having fun in the present with current MMOs and will continue to have fun with future MMOs. Some of you people sound like 80 yr olds, complaining how powersteering ruined automobiles;)
Just because a person enjoyed UO, doesn't make them an authority on anything. All it proves is that they tolerated a whole lot more than most people would. Stick anyone today with all the MMOs we have in front of UO circa 97 and guess how many would play? I'd say none.
Again--you end up arguing contradictory things. If WoW did nothing innovative, nothing special--why did people flock to it, rather than any other random game? It's because people LIKE the world Blizzard created.
I'm sorry that people didn't flock to whatever game YOU happen to love, but given your responses to WoW, you'd just end up hating that as well.
And for the record--every major, reputable software developer makes their games for the "mass audience." No developer, especially one spending such a large amount of money, is going to focus on capturing the attention of a small but very devoted playerbase. To do so , you end up with tiny population games. Much like EVE was in the beginning of its life--but then they expanded it and made it more friendly to new players, adding "mass appeal" and the population has increased, and CCP makes more money.
It's not so much that WoW has "shown the light" to developers--it's shown the light to their publishers. The companies who usually pay for development and marketing. They're not going to invest the money and time required to develop an awesome, complicated game without a significant chance of it paying off.
WoW has shown publishers that MMOs can and are profitable in the mainstream, which is why you see so many other MMOs popping up now--they want a piece of the pie. It's as simple as that.
Any mmorpg that had that kind of HUGE marketing is bond to have a enourmous playerbase.. Plus its the oh so popular warcraft series.. Taking that WoW spent about 30 times as much money than other mmorpgs to market their game its pretty obvius it will succeed! Not alot of ppl think of that.
Again--you end up arguing contradictory things. If WoW did nothing innovative, nothing special--why did people flock to it, rather than any other random game? It's because people LIKE the world Blizzard created.
I'm sorry that people didn't flock to whatever game YOU happen to love, but given your responses to WoW, you'd just end up hating that as well.
And for the record--every major, reputable software developer makes their games for the "mass audience." No developer, especially one spending such a large amount of money, is going to focus on capturing the attention of a small but very devoted playerbase. To do so , you end up with tiny population games. Much like EVE was in the beginning of its life--but then they expanded it and made it more friendly to new players, adding "mass appeal" and the population has increased, and CCP makes more money.
It's not so much that WoW has "shown the light" to developers--it's shown the light to their publishers. The companies who usually pay for development and marketing. They're not going to invest the money and time required to develop an awesome, complicated game without a significant chance of it paying off.
WoW has shown publishers that MMOs can and are profitable in the mainstream, which is why you see so many other MMOs popping up now--they want a piece of the pie. It's as simple as that.
My game of choice at the moment is World of Warcraft, but I can voice my opinion of the matter.
I'm not at all being an advocate against WoW, whose reputation you seem adamant on thinking I'm trying to tarnish (Never even said it was a bad game
), I'm trying to voice an opinion that simplifying gaming mechanics like WoW did isn't the only way of drawing in gamers. I, and many others, are fans of complicated and thought-provoking mechanics that oft-times have do-or-die consequences and even sometimes forget to include the do-or.
My original point, which somehow got dragged into an "I hate you WoW-basher" rant, is that I'd rather have a developer make games based off of what is requested by those of us that are now the vocal minority, than simply try, every time, to conform to the "WoW-clone" or "Insert-Trendy-Game-Name-That-Doesn't-Ruffle-Your-Feathers Clone" fever and test new waters.
Its 5am and I'm losing my train of thought, so hopefully you catch that I'm not trying to hurt your game here.
It's not just "marketing" that make people play the game. It might make people interested in it--and check it out, but no amount of advertising forces people to play something they don't like.
Whether you want to believe it or not, Blizzard has a reputation for making games of the highest quality--not throwing endless amounts of money and forcing people to play.
The vast majority of people I see bashing WoW are the same types who continually argue about consoles. Resentful that whatever they represent (EQ2, PS3, whatever you prefer) doesn't represent the majority share in the market. And because they don't, naturally their opposition is of lower quality? No.
You're making baseless assumptions--that WoW spent more than NCSoft marketing Guild Wars, or City of Heroes--etc. There were about the same amount of publisher-created hype around those games, and yet WoW's was much more effective. Why?
Because people like the games Blizzard makes--Warcraft, as you said, is popular. For a reason. Not because they advertised so much.
I'm not a particular fan of World of Warcraft. I played it, yes, but I quit. I got what I wanted out of it. However, seeing people mindlessly rant about how "horrible" a game it is when they haven't played it, didn't understand it, or are resentful of its success is something I won't tolerate.
I would not say it is dying. That fact one game brought out several million players, would suggest otherwise. I suspect MMO, are following a darwinin evolution path. New games show up all the time (Mutations) Some are sucessful (Benificial mutations), Some fail (bad mutations) Not to mention the enviroment is changing. Back in the days when UO was big, most people into those sort of games were younger, had less responsibilites, and more disposable time. Now 10 years later the demographics of gameplayers have changed, you still have a lot of young players with plenty of time, but now you have a lot of older players. One who have families and other reponsibilites competing for time. So now a new game comes out (WOW) which is a mutations of the other MMO's but it mutation makes it easier and more accesable to those who don't have huge amounts of time to devote to it.
Again--you end up arguing contradictory things. If WoW did nothing innovative, nothing special--why did people flock to it, rather than any other random game? It's because people LIKE the world Blizzard created.
I'm sorry that people didn't flock to whatever game YOU happen to love, but given your responses to WoW, you'd just end up hating that as well.
And for the record--every major, reputable software developer makes their games for the "mass audience." No developer, especially one spending such a large amount of money, is going to focus on capturing the attention of a small but very devoted playerbase. To do so , you end up with tiny population games. Much like EVE was in the beginning of its life--but then they expanded it and made it more friendly to new players, adding "mass appeal" and the population has increased, and CCP makes more money.
It's not so much that WoW has "shown the light" to developers--it's shown the light to their publishers. The companies who usually pay for development and marketing. They're not going to invest the money and time required to develop an awesome, complicated game without a significant chance of it paying off.
WoW has shown publishers that MMOs can and are profitable in the mainstream, which is why you see so many other MMOs popping up now--they want a piece of the pie. It's as simple as that.
My game of choice at the moment is World of Warcraft, but I can voice my opinion of the matter.
I'm not at all being an advocate against WoW, whose reputation you seem adamant on thinking I'm trying to tarnish (Never even said it was a bad game
), I'm trying to voice an opinion that simplifying gaming mechanics like WoW did isn't the only way of drawing in gamers. I, and many others, are fans of complicated and thought-provoking mechanics that oft-times have do-or-die consequences and even sometimes forget to include the do-or.
My original point, which somehow got dragged into an "I hate you WoW-basher" rant, is that I'd rather have a developer make games based off of what is requested by those of us that are now the vocal minority, than simply try, every time, to conform to the "WoW-clone" or "Insert-Trendy-Game-Name-That-Doesn't-Ruffle-Your-Feathers Clone" fever and test new waters.
Its 5am and I'm losing my train of thought, so hopefully you catch that I'm not trying to hurt your game here.
I can respect that. I just don't agree that WoW "simplified" game mechanics. They chose to make certain features that few people liked, more user friendly.
What are some of the major turn-offs of other once-popular MMOs? I'll take City of Heroes, EverQuest and Final Fantasy XI as an example.
Most people hate harsh death penalties. In CoH, you'd get an experience debt you'd have to earn off, making leveling more slow and increasing the grind. In EQ and FFXI, you'd actually LOSE experience for dying, and in FFXI you'd lose experience -and- get a debt.
Put that together with the fact that you couldn't solo in FFXI (and if you were swarmed due to lag or any other circumstance), dying at the later stages basically prevented you from leveling up.
These harsh penalties do weed out the inexperienced players, but prevent potential good players from playing.
How does WoW handle it? As you know, there's no real penalty for death other than having your equipment degrade and the inconvenience of walking back to your corpse.
Is this a "simplified" mechanic from other games? No. It's just a choice they made so that they wouldn't needlessly turn people off from playing their game.
Another example is solo'ing. WoW is the first mainstream MMO where it is actually feasible to solo all the way up to max level. And you get people that want to do so--even though it's an MMO. People say that makes WoW too easy. That it fills it up with idiots.
However, these people who only solo and can't/don't get along with other players hurt themselves because they can't do group quests and can't get high-level dungeon equipment or PVP effectively. Is this a simplified feature? No. It allows people to solo but greatly REWARDS group efforts.
This is a major mistake that FFXI fell into, that COH fell into, that D&D Online fell into--I see it all the time. It's not streamlining the game for mass appeal. It's making the game less annoying in several factors that make people actually WANT to play it, and have fun, rather than suffer through it.
And your reason for thinking this? The majority of people I played with in WoW--and I'm talking about dedicated players--are dedicated PC gamers or even dedicated MMO players.
You can't logically argue that WoW is somehow inferior to its competitors, when it manages to "absorb other MMO's players." Something about the game is apparently making them want to quit their other MMO and join WoW. That something is not advertising or hype. It's their decision based on what they think is fun.
So what is your factual basis for believing "WoW turns MMO gamers into console gamers"?
It's not just "marketing" that make people play the game. It might make people interested in it--and check it out, but no amount of advertising forces people to play something they don't like.
Whether you want to believe it or not, Blizzard has a reputation for making games of the highest quality--not throwing endless amounts of money and forcing people to play.
The vast majority of people I see bashing WoW are the same types who continually argue about consoles. Resentful that whatever they represent (EQ2, PS3, whatever you prefer) doesn't represent the majority share in the market. And because they don't, naturally their opposition is of lower quality? No.
You're making baseless assumptions--that WoW spent more than NCSoft marketing Guild Wars, or City of Heroes--etc. There were about the same amount of publisher-created hype around those games, and yet WoW's was much more effective. Why?
Because people like the games Blizzard makes--Warcraft, as you said, is popular. For a reason. Not because they advertised so much.
I'm not a particular fan of World of Warcraft. I played it, yes, but I quit. I got what I wanted out of it. However, seeing people mindlessly rant about how "horrible" a game it is when they haven't played it, didn't understand it, or are resentful of its success is something I won't tolerate.
You think marketing has nothing to do with it? WoWs advertising cost more than it cost to make Lineage2 for godsake! Its one of the largest adverticement fund ever spent on a mmorpg.. No wait it IS the largest amount ever spent and the first mmorpg ever to have a tv commercian in nearly every country in europe and thru out the us! Belive me it makes a BIG diffrence! You dont get 9 mil players if u dont advertice like hell or release it in asia. Thats a Fact!
To answer Alea (its closing time and I'm off to the barracks so I'm typing out the door.
), my reasons for calling WoW a simplified game are many and may not all make much sense. Some of it may tie into my mind's version of fact and some may just be bitter ramblings. I'll have more time to respond and I feel we've strayed from the original intent of the thread but if you'd like my shot at explaining it send me a PM and I'll do my best!
It's not just "marketing" that make people play the game. It might make people interested in it--and check it out, but no amount of advertising forces people to play something they don't like.
Whether you want to believe it or not, Blizzard has a reputation for making games of the highest quality--not throwing endless amounts of money and forcing people to play.
The vast majority of people I see bashing WoW are the same types who continually argue about consoles. Resentful that whatever they represent (EQ2, PS3, whatever you prefer) doesn't represent the majority share in the market. And because they don't, naturally their opposition is of lower quality? No.
You're making baseless assumptions--that WoW spent more than NCSoft marketing Guild Wars, or City of Heroes--etc. There were about the same amount of publisher-created hype around those games, and yet WoW's was much more effective. Why?
Because people like the games Blizzard makes--Warcraft, as you said, is popular. For a reason. Not because they advertised so much.
I'm not a particular fan of World of Warcraft. I played it, yes, but I quit. I got what I wanted out of it. However, seeing people mindlessly rant about how "horrible" a game it is when they haven't played it, didn't understand it, or are resentful of its success is something I won't tolerate.
You think marketing has nothing to do with it? WoWs advertising cost more than it cost to make Lineage2 for godsake! Its one of the largest adverticement fund ever spent on a mmorpg.. No wait it IS the largest amount ever spent and the first mmorpg ever to have a tv commercian in nearly every country in europe and thru out the us! Belive me it makes a BIG diffrence! You dont get 9 mil players if u dont advertice like hell or release it in asia. Thats a Fact!
Like I said--marketing may encourage people to try a game, but all it does is let people know of its existence--no amount of marketing will make people continue to play a bad game. It's their continued, large subscription numbers that are advertised--the people they're able to KEEP playing--not the copies sold, that people tout.
For the record, I never have been nor will I ever be a harcore, 8 hour a day, MMO gamer. That was my single biggest complaint when it came to older MMO's.
Having said that, I honestly don't like these newer MMO's. It's not the fact that they're too casual with time requirements, rather, it's the fact that they're extremely linear and simplified. Is that a bad thing? Well, that depends. When the entire genre (almost) is made up of these types of MMO's, then it is definately a bad thing. Give us some diversity. I don't have a problem with WOW (or it's clones) being out there in the market, but I do have a problem with the ENTIRE genre following that same path.
Seriously, if the current MMO genre was a more accurate representation of the MMO player base, we wouldn't have nearly the amount of complaints. Theres a market for open ended, sandbox style, skill based MMO's, no matter what people say or how many times they say it. If you don't like those types of games thats fine, just recognize that others do and be thankful that you have MORE than enough class/level based, linear, quest driven MMO's.
People who use the excuse that "loads of people are playing WOW due to marketing" really don't understanbd marketing. MMOs are a subscription service. Marketing informs and educates. It can not interest someone in downloading a trial. If someone goes on and plays for a year after that, its the GAME that convinces them and nothing more. WOW is a damn good game and thats why people are playing. Blizzard hardly marketed the game at all in the beginning. It didn't even kick in until 6 months, because they couldn't handle the intial influx of players. It was ALL word of mouth and amazing reviews. Marketing can't buy reviews from every single reputable source. EQ2 was marketed so much more during release and had a far bigger name in the MMO scene. SWG has the biggest license in history and it didn't do them any good.. You can't trick people into playing a MMO.
Eve could have all the marketing in the world and it wouldn't get most people past the 1st few hours.
NO
Well if mmos don't go back to there true nature(lol fun anybody?) They will die out in the next few years but i guess we will have to see what is in store for 2008 releases.
Playing: Everthing
Played: DAoC,AC2,EvE,SWG,WAR,MXO,CoX,EQ2,L2,LOTRO,SB,UO,WoW.
I have played every MMO that has ever come out.