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SWG vs KOTOR...trouble ahead

admriker4admriker4 Member Posts: 1,070

I know many of us are rejoicing at the possibility at a second chance to play a Star Wars MMO. I would suggest that we all not get too excited though. There are definite issues looming here...

Fans vs Fans - If your unaware, KOTOR's main fan base hates MMO's. They also hate the idea of paying a monthly fee. Dont take my word for it, browse the many forums out there (especially the ones reporting the Bioware KOTOR MMO rumors). These fans have been waiting for KOTOR 3 and simply arent happy about a KOTOR MMO.

SWG ex-players are in the opposite boat. They hope the game is set in the KOTOR timeline but they dont want many of KOTOR's gameplay features. Lets face it, KOTOR is a quest-based game definitely linear and forces you along a story path. SWG players want the opposite of that, ie a sandbos mmo where we the player make our own content (with a mix of quests in between).

So the question remains, who will Bioware decide to satisfy ? Will they somehow think turn-based combat can work for a MMO ? Will they make progression based on finishing quests ? Or is the game just based on the KOTOR timeline but otherwise resembles very little about KOTOR ?

Dont get me wrong, I loved the KOTOR games. However I also love MMO's and they are two different animals. Personally I want a sandbox MMO, skill-based (please no levels it ruins mmos), player run economy, tools like SWG had to make my own content, some quests but none that I MUST do to progress in the game, and finally real crafting with resource spawns like SWG had.

PC vs Console -  There is a reason why the most successful MMO of all time is PC only, it works best. You cant work classic MMO combat with multiple attacks, etc with a gamepad, it just wont work. KOTOR's majority of its sales were for console versions. Again, more trouble ahead for Bioware here. Will they attempt an MMO that will somehow work for both PC and console or will they stick to PC ?

I see trouble between the two fan bases. They want very different things for this game and Bioware must decide in the end who do they wish to make this game for, the console KOTOR quest lovin fans or the SWG pre-cu lovin refugees. I doubt they can please both

 

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Comments

  • admriker4admriker4 Member Posts: 1,070

    I would also suggest to Bioware one thing...

    If the game is simply set in the same timeline as KOTOR but uses game mechanics from SWG pre-cu, they better make sure the name isnt KOTOR online.

    Check the fansites out there. Mention KOTOR in any form and people get angry if they think its going to be a MMORPG. These folks want KOTOR 3 and are going to take that anger and resentment out on the SWG ex-players.

    Go with KOTOR Online if the game mechanics will be the same. The marketing folks will agree its a good idea to take advantage of KOTOR's good rep. However, please dont make us ex SWG refugees a target of anti-MMO KOTOR 3 hopefuls. Go with something new for the name

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148Member CommonPosts: 6,690

    if indeed it will be a Kotor mmo then Bioware will use Kotor game mechanics with their own personal touch implemented. They do their own thing.

    Now I don't know how accurate this is but accrding to a gamespot artice I was just reading they mentioned that SWG has and estimated less than 100,000 people playing and somewhere around 20,000 people active. If this is really the case I see no trouble with pleasing the SWG fanbase as SWG seems to be on it's way out the door. Bioware will cater to their fans and do it their way as they always have.

    www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php

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  • outlaw101outlaw101 Member Posts: 351

    SWG against a game that has at-best been denied by BIOWARE developers?



    We don't even know if there is a KOTOR mmo, and even if there was the chances of it becoming just another grind are astronomical.

    "Don't hold breath about another KOTOR game coming from Bioware" - Chris Preistly

    "Bioware is more intrested in pursueing development of it's own Intellectual properties"

    - James Henly

  • admriker4admriker4 Member Posts: 1,070

    The first rumors back in Feb 2006 shortly after the NGE disaster all said that Bioware had obtained the pre-cu code. That was why SOE refused to roll the servers back, they couldnt.

    So my guess is Bioware's MMO will be set in the timeline of KOTOR but implement SWG pre-cu style gameplay. Considering Bioware opened its Austin Studio around this same time it makes perfect sense.

    In addition, there are hundreds of thousands of ex-SWG players out there who clearly prefer pre-cu over two different cloned attempted versions of WoW - Star Wars.

    Just dont name it KOTOR Online if it wont use the same game mechanics.

  • outlaw101outlaw101 Member Posts: 351
    Originally posted by admriker4


    The first rumors back in Feb 2006 shortly after the NGE disaster all said that Bioware had obtained the pre-cu code. That was why SOE refused to roll the servers back, they couldnt.
    So my guess is Bioware's MMO will be set in the timeline of KOTOR but implement SWG pre-cu style gameplay. Considering Bioware opened its Austin Studio around this same time it makes perfect sense.
    In addition, there are hundreds of thousands of ex-SWG players out there who clearly prefer pre-cu over two different cloned attempted versions of WoW - Star Wars.
    Just dont name it KOTOR Online if it wont use the same game mechanics.



    Hundreds of thousands?, A clear exageration, perhaps with a little fabrication thats what the number could of been a few years back, but now most have moved on, most have forgotten, most don't care, the haters and whiners that remain are deminishing quickly as they slowly realise the cold hard truth, nothing they do matters to anyone.

    "Don't hold breath about another KOTOR game coming from Bioware" - Chris Preistly

    "Bioware is more intrested in pursueing development of it's own Intellectual properties"

    - James Henly

  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,087

    Ill burst your bubble. There wont be a preCU SWG style MMO for the coming years. All the MMO developers with money look at Blizzard and Turbine atm. If there will be a MMO based on KOTOR SW, you will get something based on WoW or LOTRO gamemechanics with a marketing department saying that it is groundbreaking new.

    I'm afraid that those big companies see PreCU as a niche game.  They prefer to see the mass of casual players playing their game. A much easier (and larger) to satisfy crowd that doesnt need a second life in a game.

    Your hope rests with the smaller companies that take time to develop something. And then there is still a large chance that they wont pull it off in time or simply cant in the end.

    Disclaimer: This has nothing to do what I personally would like to see in a MMO.

     

    EDIT: If Vanguard or Dark & Light turned out to be a succes, things might have looked different. But every failure of a sandbox kind of MMO, will make less likely that those big companies have another attempt at a features packed sandbox MMO.

  • Well, the last OGL d20 system was a failure (DDO).  I don't think they will take that approach.  I'm not sure what the license issues would be, but KOTOR is basically based on Wizard's Star Wars: RPG.  With Saga out, I'm not sure if they are able to use that model or want to use the d20 system. 

    I just hope that it's decent.  I don't want my heart broken again.

  • solarinesolarine Member Posts: 1,203

    I'm hoping for a hybrid because, hey, more options usually mean richer gameplay, right? Sandbox elements along with the juicy option to go through rich storylines would be really nice. Then, of course, those storylines should be somewhat modular to work at all and not layed out in a chapter format like LOTRO.

    On the other hand, I have to say a sandbox approach goes against everything Bioware is famous for. If they somehow find a way of translating their storyline-driven mechanics to the MMORPG genre and keep the same level of immersion and fun, they might practically redefine the genre. If not, well, I'm afraid it might get a bit suffocating.

     

  • tman5tman5 Member Posts: 604

    I've said before that setting any MMO in the KOTOR timeline would likely be a mistake.  No one knows KOTOR outside of a relatively narrow game community.  The KOTOR stories are not part of the better-known Star Wars - the movies.  Any successful Star Wars MMO must incorporate the movies in some way.  That portion of the franchise has the largest penetration in world culture and LA has shown they want distribution as wide as possible.

    Perhaps set in the timeline during or just before the Clone Wwars, which would allow many KOTOR elements along with movie tie-ins (just not the better movies).  Even better would be the timeline just after the death of the Emperor.  You'd still have remnants of the Empire to deal with, most of the major characters from the original trilogy, and player Jedi could be the reemerging force-sensitives coming out of hiding.

    As to game play, I won't hold my breath for a sandbox game ala preCU SWG.  Bioware does quest games very well and even the linear KOTOR feels open with the many side quests.  Given a broader landscape, a quest driven game, done right, could feel open-ended. I think Bioware could pull it off - if LA stays out of the kitchen.

     

  • PreCUPreCU Member Posts: 382

    read any of the interviews and Q&A's about the bioware mmo. It wont be a sandbox. It wont be anything like preCU. It will be another WoW-type game.

  • Devildog1Devildog1 Member Posts: 494
    Originally posted by PreCU


    read any of the interviews and Q&A's about the bioware mmo. It wont be a sandbox. It wont be anything like preCU. It will be another WoW-type game.



    I truely hope that you are wrong but the recient trends do point that way. That being said I hope they still put out a game that is a hybrid sandbox/ linear style game.

  • Bane82Bane82 Member UncommonPosts: 1,242

    I know I've read in the past that they don't plan on implementing many sandbox features into the game and that they do look at WoW for some refference points. I just want Bioware to make a great SW MMO in which there's a great story behind and in which I can actually enjoy myself, rather than feel like I have a second job. That was one of the greatest things about the Pre CU skill system is that it felt less like a grind like the NGE.

    My only hope is for Bioware to do what they do best, and nothing else. I don't want them to make the same mistake as SOE and try to do something they're not normally good at doing (NGE) just because they think it'll bring more players, while ignoring their existing playerbase.

    All that being said, I still am looking forward to Bioware's MMO even if it's not a duplicate of Pre CU because I'm sure they will do a great job nonetheless (at least, by comparison to SOE) I don't expect their game to be a WoW killer because that's just silly. As long as the game is fun for YOU, why should you care whether it beats WoW or not? Besides, if it ended up stealing customers from WoW, would you really want kids from the Barrnes chat to end up in KOTOR:O just to prove that it beat WoW? lol

  • InstagoInstago Member Posts: 109

    I love KOTOR far more than SWG and would kill for a KOTOR MMO. ;)

  • Bane82Bane82 Member UncommonPosts: 1,242


    Originally posted by Instago
    I love KOTOR far more than SWG and would kill for a KOTOR MMO. ;)
    Very well... but would you kill for a Klondike bar?

    image

    lol

  • TrollstarTrollstar Member Posts: 332

    I'd have to bet against it being anything too much like the original SWG, which wasn't that big of a hit even in its heyday. (hey, why do you think they went ahead with changes like NGE).

    The lure of WOW type numbers has a very strong appeal I'm afraid, and even if they aren't shooting to take WOW down, they will target something like 1 or 2 million players at a minimum, and remaking the old SWG just won't do it.

    But if it did turn out to be a sandbox game I'd enjoy it, but that's not the way to bet.

    Who the hell are you, and why should I care?
    Congrats! You are a victim of Trollstar!

  • TeknoBugTeknoBug Member UncommonPosts: 2,156

    As many "you pre-cu fanbois that want KOTOR online will be disappointed" comments as I see, I won't be as long as it isn't a frigging pseudo-FPS with a piss poor ugly looking GUI like the NGE is, the SWG sandbox is great but I can live without it if vendors and cantinas are only NPC but buying your own apparntment in a major city would be great (like the ones in KOTOR 2 underneith a city) and could give you a place to store your items.

    image
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  • TeknoBugTeknoBug Member UncommonPosts: 2,156


    Originally posted by Trollstar
    I'd have to bet against it being anything too much like the original SWG, which wasn't that big of a hit even in its heyday. (hey, why do you think they went ahead with changes like NGE).

    The NGE was completely uncalled for, they could have just improved the existing system, I still don't get it to why the hell they did that to 250K+ PAYING customers that promptly quit after the NGE. City of Heroes/Villains has 150K-200K subscribers and they consider that game a success, why didn't SOE/LA see 300K subscribers as a success- because they got jealous of WoW, and they even admitted they play WoW.

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  • TerranahTerranah Member UncommonPosts: 3,575

    Companies go where the money is.  In this case, the number of potential mmo players and money that would generate far exceeds the Kotor rpg player base. 

     

    That being said, game design is not necessarily either / or.   Various play styles can and are incorporated into today's mmo's, and I see no reason why this would not be the case in a KOTOR  mmo. 

     

     

  • Bane82Bane82 Member UncommonPosts: 1,242


    Originally posted by sookster54
    As many "you pre-cu fanbois that want KOTOR online will be disappointed" comments as I see, I won't be as long as it isn't a frigging pseudo-FPS with a piss poor ugly looking GUI like the NGE is, the SWG sandbox is great but I can live without it if vendors and cantinas are only NPC but buying your own apparntment in a major city would be great (like the ones in KOTOR 2 underneith a city) and could give you a place to store your items.

    Amen to that, as long as I don't get to see the NGE again, I'll be fine. The idea for buying/renting your own apartment sounds awesome as well! Maybe they can borrow that idea and use it for guild space stations that you can potentially do PvP raids :) (well, maybe not, but one can dream eh?)

  • ArcAngel3ArcAngel3 Member Posts: 2,931
    Originally posted by Bane82


     

    Originally posted by Instago

    I love KOTOR far more than SWG and would kill for a KOTOR MMO. ;)
    Very well... but would you kill for a Klondike bar?

     

    lol



    Rofl!

  • ArcAngel3ArcAngel3 Member Posts: 2,931

    Originally posted by Bane82


     

    Originally posted by sookster54

    As many "you pre-cu fanbois that want KOTOR online will be disappointed" comments as I see, I won't be as long as it isn't a frigging pseudo-FPS with a piss poor ugly looking GUI like the NGE is, the SWG sandbox is great but I can live without it if vendors and cantinas are only NPC but buying your own apparntment in a major city would be great (like the ones in KOTOR 2 underneith a city) and could give you a place to store your items.

     

    Amen to that, as long as I don't get to see the NGE again, I'll be fine. The idea for buying/renting your own apartment sounds awesome as well! Maybe they can borrow that idea and use it for guild space stations that you can potentially do PvP raids :) (well, maybe not, but one can dream eh?)

    For starters I'll just be happy if it's a Star Wars game that works properly, and if no one comes along and steals my pants (re. the implementation of armour certification).

    More seriously though, if it's StarWars, if it works (that's huge btw), if it lets StarWars fans have fun together in our favourite happy place, and if they don't take away and/or break the things we've worked on for ages (also huge), I'd be pretty darn satisfied.  I like quest stuff and sandbox both. 

  • bluchewbluchew Member UncommonPosts: 53
    Originally posted by ArcAngel3


     
    For starters I'll just be happy if it's a Star Wars game that works properly, and if no one comes along and steals my pants (re. the implementation of armour certification).
     
    More seriously though, if it's StarWars, if it works (that's huge btw), if it lets StarWars fans have fun together in our favourite happy place, and if they don't take away and/or break the things we've worked on for ages (also huge), I'd be pretty darn satisfied.  I like quest stuff and sandbox both. 



    I just want to play Star Wars, not Jedi Wars

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  • mindspatmindspat Member Posts: 1,367

    Originally posted by abanathie


    Well, the last OGL d20 system was a failure (DDO).  I don't think they will take that approach.  I'm not sure what the license issues would be, but KOTOR is basically based on Wizard's Star Wars: RPG.  With Saga out, I'm not sure if they are able to use that model or want to use the d20 system. 
    I just hope that it's decent.  I don't want my heart broken again.
    Dungeons & Dragons Online is a very good game.  If you are one of those who based an opinion on a beta of the game then you have no ground.  If you haven't tried it in the last 6 months then you should very much do so since it's top notch and a very respectable level of skill customization with well scripted dungeon experiances. 

    I am not into twitch style controls yet DDO is the ONLY game that uses it which can keep my attention. 

    It goes without saying that Turbine is somewhat flawed in their direction of development otherwise there would already be dynamic high end content in the form of castles/keeps/fortresses guild housing with raiding features that would generate mobs to attack based on the opposing teams preferences. 

    DDO is one of the better MMOs currently on the market even though it's not recieving the recognition it deserves.  I actually rate it second, with EVE being in 1st place.

     

     

  • MathosMathos Member Posts: 897

    My self im going to wait to see what numbers they get at start and maybe 2 years into the game.

     

    If it dont get the numbers they want can you say NGE lol

     

    Just my 2 cents

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