DAoC had very simple dynamically generated quests. You talk to an NPC and they send you off to kill a random nearby mob, or to deliver a package to a random NPC. If I'm not mistaken, I think SWG has something like this as well. Oddly, the best implementation of it that I've seen in an MMO is Anarchy Online. When the game generates a mission, you have a series of sliders so that you can have the missions emphasize things your characater is good at. For example, if you set the sliders one way you'll get a lot of stealth missions where you sneak past enemies to steal something, or sneak to a taget and assasinate it. If you set them another way, you get lots of missions where you break down the door and kill everything that moves. The missions can be set for solo or party play. And each mission has a random reward. You can have the terminal keep generating missions until you see one that gives you a peice of gear you want. The thing that I think is really brillant about the system is that no-one has to spend a lot of time designing different mission types for different character classes (or party make-ups). You let the players balance it themselves, and ensure that it has a reward they desire themselves. It's a really good system, and I've never been able to figure out why it isn't implemented in more MMOs. That said, I would not want dynamically generated quests to be the only form of questing in a game. One of the strengths of a linear series of pre-scripted quest chains is that you can give them a rich backstory, and design them in such a way that a narrative emerges from them. I actually think this is one of the strengths of LoTRO, the density of well written and scripted quests is much higher than you will find in most MMOs.
ugh... sorry I missed AO then. That sounds like a good idea. ( I'm probably too much of a graphics-whore to make myself play it now)
to "not wanting dynamic quests only", I agree with that. I've thought that maybe devs could do something like this... instead of making the main-story A-B-C, how about each step being a choice between several quests (A,B, or C) then do (D,E, or F) etc. And it all made sense. The choice at each level either being random, chosen by the character, based on class, based on what others on the server have chosen, etc. Then intermix those quests the dynamic ones. That way you get both a dynamic immerssive world with some main-quest lines blended in.
LOTRO does have a dense collection of quests; and pretty well written imo. However, I think this is both a blessing and a curse. It's good at first of course, but it sets them up with a higher standard for the quantity and quality of future content, hence constraining them to work on more and more quests to keep the flavor. Don't expect to see any major new gameplay or character customization enhancement, because their hands are now tied. But who knows really... if the money has been good, maybe an xpack will see x more classes, some more character customization of skills/talents, etc. Here's hoping.
@ dragon (op).... excited about the thread? you used the magic word at mmorpg.com... 'linear', (implying comparison with 'nonlinear'). I would suspect 99% of the people at this site would feel like they were in heaven if they could just be sucked into a virtual world, free to do whatever they imagined, eventually achieving an invitation to mount olympus.
@ dragon (op).... excited about the thread? you used the magic word at mmorpg.com... 'linear', (implying comparison with 'nonlinear'). I would suspect 99% of the people at this site would feel like they were in heaven if they could just be sucked into a virtual world, free to do whatever they imagined, eventually achieving an invitation to mount olympus.
LOL!
I'm just excited that we can have intelligent conversation without resorting to taunts like "Oh yeah! My MMO can kick your MMO's butt!"
I liked your idea about branching quest-lines. I'd brought that up before in a few other threads. It must be harder to code than what I am envisioning because I haven't seen it implemented in an MMO that I've played. At least not in the way that I'm envisioning it.
Option A.1
Option A Option A.2
Option A.3
Option B.1
Start of quest: Option B Option B.2
Option B.3
Option C.1
Option C Option C.2
Option C.3
Somthing along those lines is what I'd like to see more of. That way, even if I do the same quest, I can have 9 different outcomes depending on the choices I make along the way. Some could even have another level or more branches to begin with for even more variety.
Edit: Just thought of another idea along the lines of the branching quest line. How about make it so that depending on the amount of time, or the level of completeness, or the amount of mobs that you killed along the way had an impact on the final quest reward and/or follow-up quests?
For instance, say you just run and complete the quest doing the absolute minimum to complete the quest. Well, you get items W, and follow-up quest X. Now, lets say you do the quest clearing out every single mob along the way. Well, then you get items Y, and follow-up quest Z.
Another variety might be: Let's say you complete a quest that is your level or even above your level by a few levels (used a full group, or whatever). Well, then your reward items are A, and you get follow-up quests B. You do the same quest solo when it is many levels below you: well, then you get items C, and follow-up quests D.
So, then depending on at what level you complete the quest, or how fast, or how completely you complete the quest, you could end up with totally different rewards and follow-up quests.
Oh Yeebo why are you so smart! That's EXACTLY what I'm trying to say. Why do we have to have A, or B, but not A and B? You were right that SWG had great potential, they *tried* to create content with the monthly story arcs and the Theme Parks (Rebel base, Jabba's Palace...) but in the end, it was all just poorly implemented and buggy as heck. Then, of course, they threw all their progress out the window with the NGE. Give me Oblivion + WoW... Morrowind + LOTRO... That is why I have high hopes for Bethesda's MMO and for Bioware's MMO. Hopefully they will give us a great, linear, story driven experience that rocks the socks AND open, sandbox style elements.
The A + B is what I think LOTRO is trying to do, and of all the MMOs out currently, it's one of the best (EVE being another).
The so-called 'sandbox' games have had trouble because they start as sandboxes without any buckets or shovels to use in the sand. I think sandbox games should be a state that MMOs evolve into over the course of their life, not something they start with.
I think LOTRO is doing this with each update. More sandbox elements to compliment the directed content.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Oh Yeebo why are you so smart! That's EXACTLY what I'm trying to say. Why do we have to have A, or B, but not A and B? You were right that SWG had great potential, they *tried* to create content with the monthly story arcs and the Theme Parks (Rebel base, Jabba's Palace...) but in the end, it was all just poorly implemented and buggy as heck. Then, of course, they threw all their progress out the window with the NGE. Give me Oblivion + WoW... Morrowind + LOTRO... That is why I have high hopes for Bethesda's MMO and for Bioware's MMO. Hopefully they will give us a great, linear, story driven experience that rocks the socks AND open, sandbox style elements.
Bethesda MMO? WTF... never heard of it!
Any sources? Please please please?
Morrowind is my #1 game ever... it is an MMORPG without live players indeed
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Any sources? Please please please? Morrowind is my #1 game ever... it is an MMORPG without live players indeed DB
I agree with you on the Morrowind! Although I ruined my first go-through of the game because I could not resist the temptation of making the "super-potions" with my Alchemy skills.
The next go-around I stayed away from Alchemy altogether and had a much more enjoyable time.
Unless bethesda seriously alters their character leveling mechanics, it will make a horrible mmo. Like everyone I loved the world, the lore etc. But you get too powerful too quickly and easy for it to make a good mmo as is.... imo.
Right now I think its simply the lack of areas that makes people call it more linear than others. I personally dont have a problem with the way things are but if I was to guess that would be it. Even after the beginning areas you move to the breelands. After that its off to Lonelands and shortly after you can split your time between the LL and North Downs. Eventually you move to Esteldin area in the ND and leave the LL behind. After thoes you can head to Evendim/Trollshaws. Get done there and you finish up with either Misty Mountains or Angmar or a mix of the two. For me personally that was plenty and I even completely skipped the old forest along with a couple major instances that had multiple quests and I found plenty to do and still do at level 50. With my alts I am hitting some of thoes places I skipped and its keeping some of the slower levels entertaining.
That is what seems to happen whenever one makes an mmo from movies and or books, it is all predetermined, you know from the books movies where its gonna be starting and where the harder progresion is going to take you for it was written already, all the devs had to do was code the book into a game, not much for thinking anything origonal as its written, if they were to try to change it up from how it is basically is in the books we would hear crying from people for that just as we hear crying for other things now (just cant win). I do play lotro, love the game, always wanted to be in the saga as i read the books as a kid and the movies later, but honestly , how else are youi going to make lotro, it almost seems like it has to follow the fundamental fantasy mmo skelatin that has been laid out by its predecessor fantasy mmo's but with its own little origonal twists in the game, but not so much that it would distort the story from the books
And this brings something that has been on my mind about franchised mmo's like lotro, conan, swg, It is fine and dandy to make an mmo from these, but does anyone else think its sort of an easy way to make a game somewhat quickly , because you dont have to think about it, its all already there written all the devs have to do is throw a skin on it to make it digital and say heres the story of this book put into a game now pay us for it. What im getting at is the lack of makeing mmo's that didnt derive from a book, or was from a movie, someplace i could go that i never heard of before, in a persistant world that i have yet to discover with my friends and actually have to figure out how to play mtyself into the evolving story, with franchised mmo's its all written in stone and predetermined. EQ and EQ2 i will hold as a good example of what i mean, i had no idead wtf norrath was, had to figure out the story which truyl got me involved what was going on because i wanted to know what happens next, in a franchise we all know what happens next and we know what we will find in ceartian places waiting for us. I miss the ohhh shit factor in the group while exploring, being abvle to craft unknown things and discovering recipes (with most franchised mmo's youm cant really add to much stuff that wasnt in the origonal story or the lorefans will freak on ya and it will just seem plain out of place)
Cheese and rice I gotta stop typing, well I said more than i wanted to hope it doesnt offend anyone as that was not my intentions.
One thing I was thinking about in is the notion of perma death in LotRO. That would really make everything that much harder, as well as give the player a sense of being his character. Think the perma death on a RP server would be interesting, and it would also fade out any sense of the game being linear, in my opinion.
It would be interesting.
~~~ Currently Playing ~~~ LOTRO- Guardian Wrymstrum & Lore-master Stabler on Nimrodel.
Conan- Zoltar <Angels of Death> Guardian on Stormrage.
That is what seems to happen whenever one makes an mmo from movies and or books, it is all predetermined, you know from the books movies where its gonna be starting and where the harder progresion is going to take you for it was written already, all the devs had to do was code the book into a game, not much for thinking anything origonal as its written, if they were to try to change it up from how it is basically is in the books we would hear crying from people for that just as we hear crying for other things now (just cant win). I do play lotro, love the game, always wanted to be in the saga as i read the books as a kid and the movies later, but honestly , how else are youi going to make lotro, it almost seems like it has to follow the fundamental fantasy mmo skelatin that has been laid out by its predecessor fantasy mmo's but with its own little origonal twists in the game, but not so much that it would distort the story from the books
And this brings something that has been on my mind about franchised mmo's like lotro, conan, swg, It is fine and dandy to make an mmo from these, but does anyone else think its sort of an easy way to make a game somewhat quickly , because you dont have to think about it, its all already there written all the devs have to do is throw a skin on it to make it digital and say heres the story of this book put into a game now pay us for it. What im getting at is the lack of makeing mmo's that didnt derive from a book, or was from a movie, someplace i could go that i never heard of before, in a persistant world that i have yet to discover with my friends and actually have to figure out how to play mtyself into the evolving story, with franchised mmo's its all written in stone and predetermined. EQ and EQ2 i will hold as a good example of what i mean, i had no idead wtf norrath was, had to figure out the story which truyl got me involved what was going on because i wanted to know what happens next, in a franchise we all know what happens next and we know what we will find in ceartian places waiting for us. I miss the ohhh shit factor in the group while exploring, being abvle to craft unknown things and discovering recipes (with most franchised mmo's youm cant really add to much stuff that wasnt in the origonal story or the lorefans will freak on ya and it will just seem plain out of place) Cheese and rice I gotta stop typing, well I said more than i wanted to hope it doesnt offend anyone as that was not my intentions. Peace Love, Happy holidays Boognish75
I know Turbine has goon to GREAT lengths to make a LOTR game where you weren't just following the story from the books. The story of the game runs parallel to that of the books. Turbine said themselves that they weren't going to re-tell the story from the books, it's been told, and many games have already been made from the movie versions... they wanted to let players live in Middle Earth, and find out all that was going on in the rest of the world while Frodo and his companions were off doing there thing.. Give credit where credit is due, IMO. I can imagine was NO easy task to pull off.
SWG started out having NOTHING to do with the movie story line other then the fact that it was Star Wars. Only after the NGE did they "change" it to a quest based game that was meant to allow players to re-enact their favorite scenes/etc. from the movies...
But, I agree that an original IP is the best way to do a MMORPG, unless the IP you are using allows you to do it in a time period/place OTHER then what people already know. Like Knights of the Old Republic by Bioware. Yeah, it was Star Wars, but it took place thousands of years before the movies.... perfect use of the Star Wars IP.
That is what seems to happen whenever one makes an mmo from movies and or books, it is all predetermined, you know from the books movies where its gonna be starting and where the harder progresion is going to take you for it was written already, all the devs had to do was code the book into a game, not much for thinking anything origonal as its written, if they were to try to change it up from how it is basically is in the books we would hear crying from people for that just as we hear crying for other things now (just cant win). I do play lotro, love the game, always wanted to be in the saga as i read the books as a kid and the movies later, but honestly , how else are youi going to make lotro, it almost seems like it has to follow the fundamental fantasy mmo skelatin that has been laid out by its predecessor fantasy mmo's but with its own little origonal twists in the game, but not so much that it would distort the story from the books
And this brings something that has been on my mind about franchised mmo's like lotro, conan, swg, It is fine and dandy to make an mmo from these, but does anyone else think its sort of an easy way to make a game somewhat quickly , because you dont have to think about it, its all already there written all the devs have to do is throw a skin on it to make it digital and say heres the story of this book put into a game now pay us for it. What im getting at is the lack of makeing mmo's that didnt derive from a book, or was from a movie, someplace i could go that i never heard of before, in a persistant world that i have yet to discover with my friends and actually have to figure out how to play mtyself into the evolving story, with franchised mmo's its all written in stone and predetermined. EQ and EQ2 i will hold as a good example of what i mean, i had no idead wtf norrath was, had to figure out the story which truyl got me involved what was going on because i wanted to know what happens next, in a franchise we all know what happens next and we know what we will find in ceartian places waiting for us. I miss the ohhh shit factor in the group while exploring, being abvle to craft unknown things and discovering recipes (with most franchised mmo's youm cant really add to much stuff that wasnt in the origonal story or the lorefans will freak on ya and it will just seem plain out of place) Cheese and rice I gotta stop typing, well I said more than i wanted to hope it doesnt offend anyone as that was not my intentions. Peace Love, Happy holidays Boognish75
You make some good points. Personally, I think working from a fully fleshed out pre-existing IP tends to be and advantage for a MMO. Game designers just aren't generally as good at writing as authors. For every MMO that made up it's own IP and actaully managed to come up with something compelling and engaging it it's own right . . . . .Ok, I'm coming up with Tabula Rasa and that's about it....I can think of ten where the Lore and backstory are a jumbled mess that was obviously an afterthought compared to designing the mechanics of the game.
I'm not trying to be a dick. I love the lore in these games. I would revisit old instances just to read books in WoW. I was also an EQ lore junky. I actually used to play all three of the games (EQ, EQOA, and EQ II) to see how the lore between them linked. My favorite activity if EQ was reading books in the plane of knowledge. But if I am dead honest with myself, as much as I enjoyed the lore in EQ and other games, it's just not as coherent as something like Tolkien, Fritz Leiber, R. Howard, or even more modern stuff like the Green Angel Tower series, L. E. Modesstit, Robert Jordan, or R. A. Salvatore.
The main thing that made the lore cool in EQ and other games was that I was immersed in it in a way that you can't be in a book. But I don't really think most novel MMO IPs could stand on their own legs too well outside of a game. So, honestly, when a MMO studio decides to go with an existing IP I don't think of it as "lazy design" so much as "a good idea." Of course it does depend on the IP, some just aren't well suited to an MMO.
As far as the designers being "stuck" with the LoTR story line, I don't think it's a problem. Tolkien mapped out a huge continent, with a deep backstory if your read all the appendices. However he only fully fleshed out a small part of it. He mentions very few details about the far south and the east, so the designers essentially have free reign to do whatever they want in those regions.
For example, whatever happened with those two Blue Wizards that went out east? What kind of societies are out there? I honestly think that LoTR has the possibility to be a "best of both worlds" IP.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
All EQ clones have tiered content. WoW, EQ, EQ2, LOTRO.
Does that make them "linear"? Sort of in that its progressive and you are "meant" to be certain places at certain points.
In my opinion its impossible for WoW or LOTRO or EQ2 to be more or less linear since they follow exactly the same paradigm. Its simply a question of the amount of content in the teirs.
EQ2 and WoW currently have more content in many teirs.
I will say LOTRO does at least throw a few wrenches into the works in the form of wandering kinda nasty creatures.
But in the end all these games have zones you are "supposed" to be in and generally lead you there trhough quest lines. And this is all part of the con system as well and is also a consequence of a level based system.
Its not really linear. It is a highly rigid, tied down, hierarchical structure that is made plainly obvious. Some people like things highly structured like that and it has its advantages.
Personally I think that amount of spelling everything out and making everything highly homogenus so that it obeys the "con" structure take alot of away from the adventure.
To make my point clearer I will use an example from my old MUD. There was an area called the Shadow Tower . It had ten levels. Each cardinal direction contained an imprisoned monster corresponding to a creatures good/evil chaos/law alignment. Each level got harder and harder. There was no reliable "con" system on this MUD.
So in other words this area was designed to behave similarly to the entire scope of content of an EQ clone.
However the devs worked for free and it didn't really turn out that way. On level 6 you had some Red Slaad. On Level 7 you had some Black Slaad. Technically the Black were "harder", but the thing is the Red Slaad would bust out with a nasty fireball that would hit you in the chest for an assload of damage sometimes. Since this game had hp per limb a direct chest hit was very dangerous. Plus this thing did like 80 hp and most people had like 100 chest. One more good hit and are dead or bleeding to death.
So what you had was some things on level 6 that were actually "easier" to kill in that they died faster but was a bit of gamble without good fire resistance. Versus the technically "harder" guys on 7 who had more hp and did attack harder and also had a special necromantic attack, but which was less chancy as in randomly hit a limb location and did less damage.
Of course the Balrog or Solar on level 10 was much harder than either one. So its not like it was completely out of kilter.
You really had to know what each thing did. The devs wanted to sort of tier the mobs but in the end there was too much variation to really have reliable "Con". But at the same time things were alot more interesting, because you needed to know what each thing did and you can never sit back on your laurels and say oh this a white con I can kill it fine.
Keep in mind one death could easily lose you 3 levels at level 25 or 30. So if you go in never having seen a Red Slaad before and you cleaned out the rest of level 6 and then suddenly you have 20% of your chest hp left you went "WTF!!" and ran like the bejesus.
There were always exceptions and inconsistencies around the corner and some of them could really mess you up.
In sense its really the beige-like consistency and well known quantities that take the adventure out of EQ clones. Because the con system leads to such homogeneity. Keep in mind the character level system and the con system are tightly bound since you cannot have a reliable monster con without a reliable way to estimate character power. This is one reason designers like levels. It is an easy way to make a character completely predictable and estimable at any point in time.
On both sides of the equation the deisgner make both charaters and mobs precisely obey their hierarchal power structure. This is good for them because then almost everything is a known quantity.
Unfortunately when everything is a known quantity things become kinda meh, kinda biege, kinda oatmeal with no sugar.
Designing a Con system for a game like Ultima Online is much harder than level based one.
i've been doing the death penalty myself and I can hosestly say , you are more likely to skip around the world a little more to achieve levels to make sure you can do the hard quests. Tonight I'm a level 13 and I was lucky enough to get 3 quest out of the way, Vigil, SpiderBane and Jagger Jack. For the past month those 3 quests keep killing me . Tonight I survived them and I feel really good
You've been deleting the character if you die? How many times have you deleted your character? That's some great personal fortitude you have there. I don't think I'd be able to do that consistently like it sounds like you've been doing.
So, how high a level do you continue the trend? Level 20? Level 30? That would kinda bite to get to 40ish with your character and then die to something silly like a computer outage. Or, do you allow yourself a "mulligan" if it's a technical glitch?
One thing that seems to irk a lot of players is the "bottlneck" of the Breelands around the late teens. However, I think this is actually by design. I believe the idea is to give everyone a chance to meet other players before the game starts to open up again. There really are a lot more quests (even if you stick to solable ones) than any one character can do before they gray out from 25 or so on. There is also the fact that LoTRO is still pretty new. I imagine more "paths" will be added as the game is expanded. Even the current game has more "paths" than the launch game.
One thing that seems to irk a lot of players is the "bottlneck" of the Breelands around the late teens. However, I think this is actually by design. I believe the idea is to give everyone a chance to meet other players before the game starts to open up again. There really are a lot more quests (even if you stick to solable ones) than any one character can do before they gray out from 25 or so on. There is also the fact that LoTRO is still pretty new. I imagine more "paths" will be added as the game is expanded. Even the current game has more "paths" than the launch game.
I'm flattered that you decided to quote me. Not so much that I'm not actually cited.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Originally posted by Yeebo (but used again for emphasis I guess, by gertwyu) One thing that seems to irk a lot of players is the "bottlneck" of the Breelands around the late teens. However, I think this is actually by design. I believe the idea is to give everyone a chance to meet other players before the game starts to open up again. There really are a lot more quests (even if you stick to solable ones) than any one character can do before they gray out from 25 or so on. There is also the fact that LoTRO is still pretty new. I imagine more "paths" will be added as the game is expanded. Even the current game has more "paths" than the launch game.
I'm flattered that you decided to quote me. Not so much that I'm not actually cited.
Heh... I was thinking that sounded very familiar. Here, I'll fix it in this quote. There you go.
Unless bethesda seriously alters their character leveling mechanics, it will make a horrible mmo. Like everyone I loved the world, the lore etc. But you get too powerful too quickly and easy for it to make a good mmo as is.... imo.
Thanks for the links
As for balancing... an MMORPG would naturally need an alpha, a closed beta and an open beta, which could all well be used for balancing.... so i wouldn't be afraid of issues like levelling too fast!
BTW I am currently playing Oblivion (re-started as I ugraded my PC just recently, not it's on full details , and I use Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul - leveling is waaaay slower than in vanilla Oblivion
If they really plan a good MMO, I think they'll take much more care on balancing issues!
BTW - the second article you posted effectively denies any conrete fact about any MMO developed by Bethesda, or for the TES universe..
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Meaning oblvion-mmo is really just currently a rumor only. I fell into it from a thread on this forum somewhere.
Playing morrowind and oblivion from their release dates until I had seen EVERY dungeon, rock and tree, (and loving it all btw, particularly morrowind with its story and varying environments and architecture), my first thought then was "this should be an MMO".... But after a while (3 or 4 MMOs) that desire has faded to almost null. I like what they do now; and getting some gold-seller spam or chuck-norris jokes while pulling off a MoragTong hit would really just ruin it for me.
But pulling it back to topic, those are most non-linear games I can remember playing. Go anywhere. Figure out where you can and can't go. Just immerse yourself. An MMO is going to have a harder time doing that. Instead of hitting the local bookstore and getting the back-story, people are just going to spam "Hey, I'm level 10 now, where should I go?". ugh.
Meaning oblvion-mmo is really just currently a rumor only. I fell into it from a thread on this forum somewhere. Playing morrowind and oblivion from their release dates until I had seen EVERY dungeon, rock and tree, (and loving it all btw, particularly morrowind with its story and varying environments and architecture), my first thought then was "this should be an MMO".... But after a while (3 or 4 MMOs) that desire has faded to almost null. I like what they do now; and getting some gold-seller spam or chuck-norris jokes while pulling off a MoragTong hit would really just ruin it for me. But pulling it back to topic, those are most non-linear games I can remember playing. Go anywhere. Figure out where you can and can't go. Just immerse yourself. An MMO is going to have a harder time doing that. Instead of hitting the local bookstore and getting the back-story, people are just going to spam "Hey, I'm level 10 now, where should I go?". ugh.
I agree airhead.
While I had a great time in Morrowind and Obliviion, I'm not sure if it would be the same experience if you throw in a bunch more people.
Some of the things that an MMO could try to recapture from Morrowind though are:
The travel system: Silk Stalkers I think they were called. Nice quick travel to get to major cites. The roads and signs made foot-travel seem appropriate, and the land mass was massive (for a single-player game). They included quite a number of magical means of travel as well. Basically, they gave the player a lot of different methods to get from point A to point B. Plus, if you decided to take the longer method of walking, there was always lots to see along the way.
The faction system: I've always liked the challenge of your game world making you have to decide who your friends and enemies will be. Whether it be by starting race, or profession, or actions in the game. Having your actions correlate to how you are treated by NPCs is something that I wish more MMOs (including LoTRo) would do more of.
Don't get caught: Another feature I'd like to see more games include is how Morrowind did the whole stealing and murder aspect. Basically, as long as you didn't get caught you could do whatever you wanted, but if the guards, or other townspeople saw you do it, then you had to suffer the consequences. Again, choices mean something.
This weapon sucks: One last thing that I think too many MMOs pass over is including cursed or undesirable weapons and armor. Or, at the very least weapons that have really good and very bad stats at the same time. For example, a sword that is +20 to strength but is also -15 to agility. Or something along those lines. Let the player decide if they want to try and work around the odd stats. See if they can mix and match to get the build they are looking for.
Another idea I had on this was an armor piece that had an activated ability. The twist would be that it had an equal chance of giving you a great effect, say like stunning your opponent, or stunning you (or even your whole party!). :P So, on a piece like this they could make the stun be a lot longer than would be on a "normal" piece with only positive outcomes. Then let the players decide if they are willing to risk using it or not.
Well, that's all for this installment. Great ideas all. Very fun discussions.
I don't think i could agree more with airhead. I remember picking up UO and figuring most everything out for myself. I would spend time just wandering around getting to know my new "world". Now players have become so aggressive to reach the top as fast as they can you see these web pages that walk you through the game. I think it ruins the game.
So in short what I am try to say is, If you want to have a game to be non linear there needs to be a good amount of content that is ever changing and unknown to players. We need to walk into an area and say okay where and what should I do next? Where should I go from here? And you need to make that choice.
Another thing I was thinking about. There shouldn't be a default map in the game, or even a map that reveals itself as you explore. The player should be given a blank canvas for a map. They are able to use small tools to create their own map from the way they see the world. Set your own landmarks put down what you think is important enough to map out.
Great post. I wish developers would read what players have to say more
I don't think i could agree more with airhead. I remember picking up UO and figuring most everything out for myself. I would spend time just wandering around getting to know my new "world". Now players have become so aggressive to reach the top as fast as they can you see these web pages that walk you through the game. I think it ruins the game. So in short what I am try to say is, If you want to have a game to be non linear there needs to be a good amount of content that is ever changing and unknown to players. We need to walk into an area and say okay where and what should I do next? Where should I go from here? And you need to make that choice.
Another thing I was thinking about. There shouldn't be a default map in the game, or even a map that reveals itself as you explore. The player should be given a blank canvas for a map. They are able to use small tools to create their own map from the way they see the world. Set your own landmarks put down what you think is important enough to map out. Great post. I wish developers would read what players have to say more
Thanks for taking the time to post. I'm really glad so many have put down some ideas of their in this post. It's also refreshing to see us all acting like mature adults as well.
Who knows, perhaps the devs are reading what we post.
Comments
ugh... sorry I missed AO then. That sounds like a good idea. ( I'm probably too much of a graphics-whore to make myself play it now)
to "not wanting dynamic quests only", I agree with that. I've thought that maybe devs could do something like this... instead of making the main-story A-B-C, how about each step being a choice between several quests (A,B, or C) then do (D,E, or F) etc. And it all made sense. The choice at each level either being random, chosen by the character, based on class, based on what others on the server have chosen, etc. Then intermix those quests the dynamic ones. That way you get both a dynamic immerssive world with some main-quest lines blended in.
LOTRO does have a dense collection of quests; and pretty well written imo. However, I think this is both a blessing and a curse. It's good at first of course, but it sets them up with a higher standard for the quantity and quality of future content, hence constraining them to work on more and more quests to keep the flavor. Don't expect to see any major new gameplay or character customization enhancement, because their hands are now tied. But who knows really... if the money has been good, maybe an xpack will see x more classes, some more character customization of skills/talents, etc. Here's hoping.
@ dragon (op).... excited about the thread? you used the magic word at mmorpg.com... 'linear', (implying comparison with 'nonlinear'). I would suspect 99% of the people at this site would feel like they were in heaven if they could just be sucked into a virtual world, free to do whatever they imagined, eventually achieving an invitation to mount olympus.
LOL!
I'm just excited that we can have intelligent conversation without resorting to taunts like "Oh yeah! My MMO can kick your MMO's butt!"
I liked your idea about branching quest-lines. I'd brought that up before in a few other threads. It must be harder to code than what I am envisioning because I haven't seen it implemented in an MMO that I've played. At least not in the way that I'm envisioning it.
Option A.1
Option A Option A.2
Option A.3
Option B.1
Start of quest: Option B Option B.2
Option B.3
Option C.1
Option C Option C.2
Option C.3
Somthing along those lines is what I'd like to see more of. That way, even if I do the same quest, I can have 9 different outcomes depending on the choices I make along the way. Some could even have another level or more branches to begin with for even more variety.
Edit: Just thought of another idea along the lines of the branching quest line. How about make it so that depending on the amount of time, or the level of completeness, or the amount of mobs that you killed along the way had an impact on the final quest reward and/or follow-up quests?
For instance, say you just run and complete the quest doing the absolute minimum to complete the quest. Well, you get items W, and follow-up quest X. Now, lets say you do the quest clearing out every single mob along the way. Well, then you get items Y, and follow-up quest Z.
Another variety might be: Let's say you complete a quest that is your level or even above your level by a few levels (used a full group, or whatever). Well, then your reward items are A, and you get follow-up quests B. You do the same quest solo when it is many levels below you: well, then you get items C, and follow-up quests D.
So, then depending on at what level you complete the quest, or how fast, or how completely you complete the quest, you could end up with totally different rewards and follow-up quests.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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The so-called 'sandbox' games have had trouble because they start as sandboxes without any buckets or shovels to use in the sand. I think sandbox games should be a state that MMOs evolve into over the course of their life, not something they start with.
I think LOTRO is doing this with each update. More sandbox elements to compliment the directed content.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
Any sources? Please please please?
Morrowind is my #1 game ever... it is an MMORPG without live players indeed
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
The next go-around I stayed away from Alchemy altogether and had a much more enjoyable time.
Any sources? Please please please?
Morrowind is my #1 game ever... it is an MMORPG without live players indeed
DB
http://mmorpg.qj.net/Pete-Hines-makes-Elder-Scrolls-MMORPG-official/pg/49/aid/107199
http://www.destructoid.com/elder-scrolls-mmorpg-confirmed--53151.phtml
Unless bethesda seriously alters their character leveling mechanics, it will make a horrible mmo. Like everyone I loved the world, the lore etc. But you get too powerful too quickly and easy for it to make a good mmo as is.... imo.
And this brings something that has been on my mind about franchised mmo's like lotro, conan, swg, It is fine and dandy to make an mmo from these, but does anyone else think its sort of an easy way to make a game somewhat quickly , because you dont have to think about it, its all already there written all the devs have to do is throw a skin on it to make it digital and say heres the story of this book put into a game now pay us for it. What im getting at is the lack of makeing mmo's that didnt derive from a book, or was from a movie, someplace i could go that i never heard of before, in a persistant world that i have yet to discover with my friends and actually have to figure out how to play mtyself into the evolving story, with franchised mmo's its all written in stone and predetermined. EQ and EQ2 i will hold as a good example of what i mean, i had no idead wtf norrath was, had to figure out the story which truyl got me involved what was going on because i wanted to know what happens next, in a franchise we all know what happens next and we know what we will find in ceartian places waiting for us. I miss the ohhh shit factor in the group while exploring, being abvle to craft unknown things and discovering recipes (with most franchised mmo's youm cant really add to much stuff that wasnt in the origonal story or the lorefans will freak on ya and it will just seem plain out of place)
Cheese and rice I gotta stop typing, well I said more than i wanted to hope it doesnt offend anyone as that was not my intentions.
Peace Love, Happy holidays
Boognish75
playing eq2 and two worlds
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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It would be interesting.
~~~ Currently Playing ~~~
LOTRO- Guardian Wrymstrum & Lore-master Stabler on Nimrodel.
Conan- Zoltar <Angels of Death> Guardian on Stormrage.
SWG started out having NOTHING to do with the movie story line other then the fact that it was Star Wars. Only after the NGE did they "change" it to a quest based game that was meant to allow players to re-enact their favorite scenes/etc. from the movies...
But, I agree that an original IP is the best way to do a MMORPG, unless the IP you are using allows you to do it in a time period/place OTHER then what people already know. Like Knights of the Old Republic by Bioware. Yeah, it was Star Wars, but it took place thousands of years before the movies.... perfect use of the Star Wars IP.
You make some good points. Personally, I think working from a fully fleshed out pre-existing IP tends to be and advantage for a MMO. Game designers just aren't generally as good at writing as authors. For every MMO that made up it's own IP and actaully managed to come up with something compelling and engaging it it's own right . . . . .Ok, I'm coming up with Tabula Rasa and that's about it....I can think of ten where the Lore and backstory are a jumbled mess that was obviously an afterthought compared to designing the mechanics of the game.
I'm not trying to be a dick. I love the lore in these games. I would revisit old instances just to read books in WoW. I was also an EQ lore junky. I actually used to play all three of the games (EQ, EQOA, and EQ II) to see how the lore between them linked. My favorite activity if EQ was reading books in the plane of knowledge. But if I am dead honest with myself, as much as I enjoyed the lore in EQ and other games, it's just not as coherent as something like Tolkien, Fritz Leiber, R. Howard, or even more modern stuff like the Green Angel Tower series, L. E. Modesstit, Robert Jordan, or R. A. Salvatore.
The main thing that made the lore cool in EQ and other games was that I was immersed in it in a way that you can't be in a book. But I don't really think most novel MMO IPs could stand on their own legs too well outside of a game. So, honestly, when a MMO studio decides to go with an existing IP I don't think of it as "lazy design" so much as "a good idea." Of course it does depend on the IP, some just aren't well suited to an MMO.
As far as the designers being "stuck" with the LoTR story line, I don't think it's a problem. Tolkien mapped out a huge continent, with a deep backstory if your read all the appendices. However he only fully fleshed out a small part of it. He mentions very few details about the far south and the east, so the designers essentially have free reign to do whatever they want in those regions.
For example, whatever happened with those two Blue Wizards that went out east? What kind of societies are out there? I honestly think that LoTR has the possibility to be a "best of both worlds" IP.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
All EQ clones have tiered content. WoW, EQ, EQ2, LOTRO.
Does that make them "linear"? Sort of in that its progressive and you are "meant" to be certain places at certain points.
In my opinion its impossible for WoW or LOTRO or EQ2 to be more or less linear since they follow exactly the same paradigm. Its simply a question of the amount of content in the teirs.
EQ2 and WoW currently have more content in many teirs.
I will say LOTRO does at least throw a few wrenches into the works in the form of wandering kinda nasty creatures.
But in the end all these games have zones you are "supposed" to be in and generally lead you there trhough quest lines. And this is all part of the con system as well and is also a consequence of a level based system.
Its not really linear. It is a highly rigid, tied down, hierarchical structure that is made plainly obvious. Some people like things highly structured like that and it has its advantages.
Personally I think that amount of spelling everything out and making everything highly homogenus so that it obeys the "con" structure take alot of away from the adventure.
To make my point clearer I will use an example from my old MUD. There was an area called the Shadow Tower . It had ten levels. Each cardinal direction contained an imprisoned monster corresponding to a creatures good/evil chaos/law alignment. Each level got harder and harder. There was no reliable "con" system on this MUD.
So in other words this area was designed to behave similarly to the entire scope of content of an EQ clone.
However the devs worked for free and it didn't really turn out that way. On level 6 you had some Red Slaad. On Level 7 you had some Black Slaad. Technically the Black were "harder", but the thing is the Red Slaad would bust out with a nasty fireball that would hit you in the chest for an assload of damage sometimes. Since this game had hp per limb a direct chest hit was very dangerous. Plus this thing did like 80 hp and most people had like 100 chest. One more good hit and are dead or bleeding to death.
So what you had was some things on level 6 that were actually "easier" to kill in that they died faster but was a bit of gamble without good fire resistance. Versus the technically "harder" guys on 7 who had more hp and did attack harder and also had a special necromantic attack, but which was less chancy as in randomly hit a limb location and did less damage.
Of course the Balrog or Solar on level 10 was much harder than either one. So its not like it was completely out of kilter.
You really had to know what each thing did. The devs wanted to sort of tier the mobs but in the end there was too much variation to really have reliable "Con". But at the same time things were alot more interesting, because you needed to know what each thing did and you can never sit back on your laurels and say oh this a white con I can kill it fine.
Keep in mind one death could easily lose you 3 levels at level 25 or 30. So if you go in never having seen a Red Slaad before and you cleaned out the rest of level 6 and then suddenly you have 20% of your chest hp left you went "WTF!!" and ran like the bejesus.
There were always exceptions and inconsistencies around the corner and some of them could really mess you up.
In sense its really the beige-like consistency and well known quantities that take the adventure out of EQ clones. Because the con system leads to such homogeneity. Keep in mind the character level system and the con system are tightly bound since you cannot have a reliable monster con without a reliable way to estimate character power. This is one reason designers like levels. It is an easy way to make a character completely predictable and estimable at any point in time.
On both sides of the equation the deisgner make both charaters and mobs precisely obey their hierarchal power structure. This is good for them because then almost everything is a known quantity.
Unfortunately when everything is a known quantity things become kinda meh, kinda biege, kinda oatmeal with no sugar.
Designing a Con system for a game like Ultima Online is much harder than level based one.
I just wanted to chime in and say congratulations we all participated in a discussion without ripping eachothers throats out, im very proud!!!
playing eq2 and two worlds
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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So, how high a level do you continue the trend? Level 20? Level 30? That would kinda bite to get to 40ish with your character and then die to something silly like a computer outage. Or, do you allow yourself a "mulligan" if it's a technical glitch?
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
One thing that seems to irk a lot of players is the "bottlneck" of the Breelands around the late teens. However, I think this is actually by design. I believe the idea is to give everyone a chance to meet other players before the game starts to open up again. There really are a lot more quests (even if you stick to solable ones) than any one character can do before they gray out from 25 or so on. There is also the fact that LoTRO is still pretty new. I imagine more "paths" will be added as the game is expanded. Even the current game has more "paths" than the launch game.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Heh... I was thinking that sounded very familiar. Here, I'll fix it in this quote. There you go.
Bethesda MMO? WTF... never heard of it!Any sources? Please please please?
Morrowind is my #1 game ever... it is an MMORPG without live players indeed
DB
http://mmorpg.qj.net/Pete-Hines-makes-Elder-Scrolls-MMORPG-official/pg/49/aid/107199
http://www.destructoid.com/elder-scrolls-mmorpg-confirmed--53151.phtml
Unless bethesda seriously alters their character leveling mechanics, it will make a horrible mmo. Like everyone I loved the world, the lore etc. But you get too powerful too quickly and easy for it to make a good mmo as is.... imo.
Thanks for the links
As for balancing... an MMORPG would naturally need an alpha, a closed beta and an open beta, which could all well be used for balancing.... so i wouldn't be afraid of issues like levelling too fast!
BTW I am currently playing Oblivion (re-started as I ugraded my PC just recently, not it's on full details
, and I use Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul - leveling is waaaay slower than in vanilla Oblivion 
If they really plan a good MMO, I think they'll take much more care on balancing issues!
BTW - the second article you posted effectively denies any conrete fact about any MMO developed by Bethesda, or for the TES universe..
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Meaning oblvion-mmo is really just currently a rumor only. I fell into it from a thread on this forum somewhere.
Playing morrowind and oblivion from their release dates until I had seen EVERY dungeon, rock and tree, (and loving it all btw, particularly morrowind with its story and varying environments and architecture), my first thought then was "this should be an MMO".... But after a while (3 or 4 MMOs) that desire has faded to almost null. I like what they do now; and getting some gold-seller spam or chuck-norris jokes while pulling off a MoragTong hit would really just ruin it for me.
But pulling it back to topic, those are most non-linear games I can remember playing. Go anywhere. Figure out where you can and can't go. Just immerse yourself. An MMO is going to have a harder time doing that. Instead of hitting the local bookstore and getting the back-story, people are just going to spam "Hey, I'm level 10 now, where should I go?". ugh.
While I had a great time in Morrowind and Obliviion, I'm not sure if it would be the same experience if you throw in a bunch more people.
Some of the things that an MMO could try to recapture from Morrowind though are:
The travel system: Silk Stalkers I think they were called. Nice quick travel to get to major cites. The roads and signs made foot-travel seem appropriate, and the land mass was massive (for a single-player game). They included quite a number of magical means of travel as well. Basically, they gave the player a lot of different methods to get from point A to point B. Plus, if you decided to take the longer method of walking, there was always lots to see along the way.
The faction system: I've always liked the challenge of your game world making you have to decide who your friends and enemies will be. Whether it be by starting race, or profession, or actions in the game. Having your actions correlate to how you are treated by NPCs is something that I wish more MMOs (including LoTRo) would do more of.
Don't get caught: Another feature I'd like to see more games include is how Morrowind did the whole stealing and murder aspect. Basically, as long as you didn't get caught you could do whatever you wanted, but if the guards, or other townspeople saw you do it, then you had to suffer the consequences. Again, choices mean something.
This weapon sucks: One last thing that I think too many MMOs pass over is including cursed or undesirable weapons and armor. Or, at the very least weapons that have really good and very bad stats at the same time. For example, a sword that is +20 to strength but is also -15 to agility. Or something along those lines. Let the player decide if they want to try and work around the odd stats. See if they can mix and match to get the build they are looking for.
Another idea I had on this was an armor piece that had an activated ability. The twist would be that it had an equal chance of giving you a great effect, say like stunning your opponent, or stunning you (or even your whole party!). :P So, on a piece like this they could make the stun be a lot longer than would be on a "normal" piece with only positive outcomes. Then let the players decide if they are willing to risk using it or not.
Well, that's all for this installment. Great ideas all. Very fun discussions.
I don't think i could agree more with airhead. I remember picking up UO and figuring most everything out for myself. I would spend time just wandering around getting to know my new "world". Now players have become so aggressive to reach the top as fast as they can you see these web pages that walk you through the game. I think it ruins the game.
So in short what I am try to say is, If you want to have a game to be non linear there needs to be a good amount of content that is ever changing and unknown to players. We need to walk into an area and say okay where and what should I do next? Where should I go from here? And you need to make that choice.
Another thing I was thinking about. There shouldn't be a default map in the game, or even a map that reveals itself as you explore. The player should be given a blank canvas for a map. They are able to use small tools to create their own map from the way they see the world. Set your own landmarks put down what you think is important enough to map out.
Great post. I wish developers would read what players have to say more
Who knows, perhaps the devs are reading what we post.