Alternatives to XP and Grinding

Cavadus · October 2007

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about alternatives to using XP for advancement (in either levels or skills) or basic grinding. The current system every MMO sans EVE uses is just the system that has been used in DnD for decades and acts like a carrot to keep people subbed for a few months as they feel pressured to advance thier character. They use the XP grind as content which I think sucks. It's lazy. At this point it's just a cheesey copout from putting some actual content in which is something that lacks in every single MMO I've ever played.

EVE is really the only game which has broken free of this staple MMO mechanic with their time centric advancement. I was wondering if anyone had any other ideas? I haven't been able to come up with much but there has to be some innovation somewheres out theres.

Flyte27 · October 2007

As has been mentioned before it takes developers weeks or even months to develop a quest that a player goes through in a few minutes. MMOs can't justify charging a monthly fee if there is no further goal to achieve. Thats why there is a grind. There always has to be some kind of goal to reach just like in real life otherwise you would likely move on to something else. I don't believe there is any other way to do this do to MMOs not being able to produce content fast enough to always have something new to do in PvE. You can satisfy a lot of people with PvP for a while, but if there is little to no progression in the game it wouldn't really be a MMORPG. It would be like a MMOFPS or something of that nature.

TommyKHart · October 2007

I think alot of the problem is alot of use don't want to play a mmo for the point of just advancing. We want it to be fun and engaging. If you want a new mmo with a different form of advancement you will still end up with people moaning about advancment.

Cavadus · October 2007

A grind is not essential to any MMO. It's just a marketing gimmick to keep tools and simpletons subbed to a game so they can turn a profit.

If games were more open and had more mechanics and minigames included in them there would never be a lack of content. And when I say contet I do not meant quests. Quests suck. By content I mean a good PvP system that includes an elaborate guild alliance and enemies deal, player housing and cities, bounty hunting, smuggling, gambling, et cetera. There are thousands upon thousands of examples of repeatable (and entertaining) minigames which have spectacular replayability value.

At any rate, I don't want this thread bogged down into how you're absolutely certain that grinding and XP be mandatory for any MMO ever. You'll never budge me on this issue. The only reason this mechanic is even used is because it creates longer player subscriptions and creates a bunch of crappy content that every single player must aimlessly plod through until they hit the endgame where they are given like four things to do. It's just a shortcut devs take to simplify content and for suits to scam more cash off consumers for horribly tedious gameplay.

I'm here to discuss alternatives to the XP model and grinding. EVE proved that game does not need XP or the inclusion of grinding to earn it so you're argument advocating it's necessity has already been defeated.

Flyte27 · October 2007

I have not played EVE much, but I believe it does in fact have a form of ship progression. They are all the same thing, but in a different mold.

Anyway you make a good point that you can have what you call minigames though this isn't really content. It's really PvP in a lot of different forms that doesn't have to include killing. You seem to be a big advocate of players creating their own content so I'm not sure why you want any content at all.

Czzarre · October 2007

At its simplest form, a "grind' is the interval of time that it takes to go from your current state (Level, wealth, quality of items) to your desired state. If it only takes a simple "click me" button to go from newbie to uber powerful...the grind is minimalized...but so is the sense of accomplishment. And after you hit that button, then what...your done. MMORPGs want you to play the game...they want their players to play their games for months, if not years. So there will always be some sort of 'grind'. I think the question is not so much of how can we get rid of the grind as much as how can we make it an enjoyable journey, and not some monotonous task.

Torrential

mrdoublerr · October 2007

you dont grind XP in EVE, you grind ISK

Cavadus · October 2007

That's wonderful. How about instead of discussing the feasibility of an MMO which doesn't use XP/grind based system (again, EVE proves you don't need XP or to include some enormous grind to increase your skills) we get back to the discussion wI meant to have which is what are the alternatives to XP grind?

EVE gives one alternative by simply having skills take a predetermined amount of real time to earn. Does anyone have any other ideas?

vajuras · October 2007

Starport- no grinding for skills period. No grind for money at all- just go setup some planets, logout, make money. now is it enough to 'win'? dont ask me I lost the last bang I played

I play on rebangs but there are many other server options

2d graphics though so if u must have 3d then look elsewhere.

oh, we use aim/dodge in this game so all skills are player driven.

there is only one goal- WIN. The way God intended MMOs to be!

Next up is Guild Wars so check that out if u burned out and need a break

but also recall even in single player RPGs we grind. I know i got like 50+ hours invested into oblivion still not no where near max level. in SP RPGs though the goal is to beat the game thus we dont feel the grind as much

Bernoully · October 2007

Grinding process has became the hated 'feature' of MMO, but I think the trick is to hide or make the process fun. What makes one's real life job fun? With all those comparison of MMO grind to real work, that question is pretty relevant.

An idea for an alternative... accomplishment and advancement in terms of pure puzzles, rather than pure repetition. As with all puzzle games, once the answer is out you have a perfectly obselete advancement feature there... unless there's like a roster of several thousand puzzles. Another alternative is something that uses active skills plus puzzles. Active hack and slash should be done like God of War series IMO; if only there's a way to incorporate those features into a MMO.

Else it's a game of fully accessible mix-matcher of skills, sandbox style. No levels, but plenty of combinations to tackle the tasks in-game. Also a definite hell lot of development being put into it.

Just some ideas there.

Deatrix · October 2007

single player rpgs should never be about the grind >.< you are not competing against anyone, no one to show off to, single player rpgs are just about the content, the story, and the world around you, immerse yourself in them, and stop worrying about reaching max level. as for replacing the xp/level sort of progression in MMOs. It is just the easiest way to do it. there has to be some sort of progression, either through Character stats (xp, skill points, stat points, w/e) or monetary wealth. people want to see something for their efforts. I definetly think more mini games as content is a good idea, like a casino! (or any of the gambling card games in single player rpgs, like the FF series, or KoTOR series.) i think they just need more diverse content, they dont need to get rid of the so called "grind" . the grind that you talk about will always exsist in one form or another, it just needs to be masked a bit, many paths to the same goal. I bet if the quests that people do had more of an effect on the enviroment then it would seem so grindish. Perhaps someone should go the "be naughty or be nice" path that some good console rpgs have done, (Knights of hte old republic, or Jade Empire, damn you bioware, make an MMO!). instead of straight up factions, run alignments, perhaps pvp would be affected by alignments! By allignments im talkin the ol' D&D style, have 7 different allignments, with an allignment point system dtermined by your actions(who you ascociate with, the types of quests/missions you complete, and the type of pvp you partake in) but alternatives to XP and grinding are there, in fact they are the same thing, just named differently. lets talk about hiding the "Grind", not replacing it.

axe_hero · October 2007

As many people have already said, the grind really doesn't have to be bad. It can be disguised as something fun and exciting, and keep you immersed in the game. If you were to actually be in the game of your choice, or lets say you are a medieval French soldier. You are in a war against the British on the front lines. You are fighting and killing swordsmen left and right. Sure, this could be considered a grind, but it would be far from boring if you were actually doing it. It would be scary and exciting. If devs recreated a scenario of this sort, one where you are fighting for your life, maybe we'd be less bored. As for XP and Levels not being used, I just can't see the day. I am not going to lie, when I played EVE for a short time it did not catch my interest. It took next to no skill to level up, just click and wait. To me that really isn't fun. If someone comes out with an alternative to XP, I would love to try that game. But, if you stray too far away from it, it really isn't an MMORPG anymore.

Flyte27 · October 2007

While I do believe character progression is part of a MMORPG and always should be I think they should take a step twords making it like real life. For instance your skills deteriorate over time if you don't use them. You have to eat and drink a certain amount every few hours which means you have to find food and water. Armor and Weapons deteriorate over time and will eventually break and need to be replaced. This is more like a simulator of real life then a adventure RPG, but I think people are getting tired of that type of thing.

paulscott · October 2007

one atractive thing about EvE's skill system is that you can do what you want to do, while at the same time learning what you want to do.

there is another way to do this it's called a lesson based system used in some muds(though implemented just wrong). basically in a lesson based system you do various actions ranging from questing to killing mods(or any other action you could think of exploration, PvP kills, crafting). you then use those lessons you basically level up anything you want from your fighting skills to crafting skills. this allows you to say go questing if you want to, barter around on the market, PvP stuff, play the minigames or what ever you want to do without the casual player having to worry about leveling up as it's part of the mechanic for doing what you like to do.

vajuras · October 2007

Originally posted by Deatrix

single player rpgs should never be about the grind >.< you are not competing against anyone, no one to show off to, single player rpgs are just about the content, the story, and the world around you, immerse yourself in them, and stop worrying about reaching max level. as for replacing the xp/level sort of progression in MMOs. It is just the easiest way to do it. there has to be some sort of progression, either through Character stats (xp, skill points, stat points, w/e) or monetary wealth. people want to see something for their efforts. I definetly think more mini games as content is a good idea, like a casino! (or any of the gambling card games in single player rpgs, like the FF series, or KoTOR series.) i think they just need more diverse content, they dont need to get rid of the so called "grind" . the grind that you talk about will always exsist in one form or another, it just needs to be masked a bit, many paths to the same goal. I bet if the quests that people do had more of an effect on the enviroment then it would seem so grindish. Perhaps someone should go the "be naughty or be nice" path that some good console rpgs have done, (Knights of hte old republic, or Jade Empire, damn you bioware, make an MMO!). instead of straight up factions, run alignments, perhaps pvp would be affected by alignments! By allignments im talkin the ol' D&D style, have 7 different allignments, with an allignment point system dtermined by your actions(who you ascociate with, the types of quests/missions you complete, and the type of pvp you partake in) but alternatives to XP and grinding are there, in fact they are the same thing, just named differently. lets talk about hiding the "Grind", not replacing it.

no offense but you must learn to use paragraphs I have noticed your posts always are a jumbled mess like this no offense. but my goodness please use paragraphs

GreenChaos · October 2007

What I don't get is how many people play a game they don't like. Grinding is just playing the game. If you think the gameplay is a grind, then you really don’t like the gameplay. If I don’t like getting to the “end game” then I don’t play the game, its just that simple. Which is why I don’t play WoW anymore.

Kyleran · October 2007

OK, OP, you keep asking for alternatives, here's one I thought of.

How about at the start of the game, every new character is given say.... 1000 skill points to spend.

And at the start of the game, there is a pool of say 100 skills that this new character can choose to outfit, with each each skill having a power level or rank...(much like EVE's) and each rank costs a few more skill points.. i.e level 1 is 1 pt, level 2 is 5, level 3 is 10 and level 4 is 50 etc.

And a player spends the entire 1000 points right off the bat...on what ever skills they want, leveled up to what ever rank they want.

Make it so later on players can fairly easily change their minds about their current build and re do it based on what their current game focus may be at the moment (NPC fighting, PVPing, Crafting etc).

The hook for players staying is toss in about 50 to 100 more skills that players earn by accomplishing either key PVE objectives (quest based or otherwise) or from killing other players or destroying their houses, guild halls or cities.

Make it so these new skills really don't replace the original set, but rather support or complement them in such a way that a new player to the game 2 years later doesn't feel horribly far behind and uncompetitive. (for example, make them things like single teleport, group teleport and heck, full raid teleport....) But be sure to make sure that Sword Fighting 5 is still just as viable as the day the new character first spent their skill points on it.

Deatrix · October 2007

Originally posted by vajuras

no offense but you must learn to use paragraphs I have noticed your posts always are a jumbled mess like this no offense. but my goodness please use paragraphs

no offense taken, i will try to make my posts a bit easier on the eyes. Im sitting at work all day , so usually i just fire off a response as im going through paper work or financial statements, my bad Im typically very busy during the day.

vajuras · October 2007

Originally posted by Deatrix

single player rpgs should never be about the grind >.< you are not competing against anyone, no one to show off to, single player rpgs are just about the content, the story, and the world around you, immerse yourself in them, and stop worrying about reaching max level. as for replacing the xp/level sort of progression in MMOs. It is just the easiest way to do it. there has to be some sort of progression, either through Character stats (xp, skill points, stat points, w/e) or monetary wealth.
people want to see something for their efforts. I definetly think more mini games as content is a good idea, like a casino! (or any of the gambling card games in single player rpgs, like the FF series, or KoTOR series.) i think they just need more diverse content, they dont need to get rid of the so called "grind" . the grind that you talk about will always exsist in one form or another, it just needs to be masked a bit, many paths to the same goal. I bet if the quests that people do had more of an effect on the enviroment then it would seem so grindish.
Perhaps someone should go the "be naughty or be nice" path that some good console rpgs have done, (Knights of hte old republic, or Jade Empire, damn you bioware, make an MMO!). instead of straight up factions, run alignments, perhaps pvp would be affected by alignments! By allignments im talkin the ol' D&D style, have 7 different allignments, with an allignment point system dtermined by your actions(who you ascociate with, the types of quests/missions you complete, and the type of pvp you partake in) but alternatives to XP and grinding are there, in fact they are the same thing, just named differently. lets talk about hiding the "Grind", not replacing it.

this guy wrote a great post but and he seems like a nice guy so I split it up for easier reading for myself

yeah the Bioware/Obsidian games have the alignment system which is very fun I agree. so pumped bout MAss Effect cant wait.

Jourdelune · October 2007

Dynamic content.

Every people had thoughts about them. We can write walls of dynamic content. But at the end, it will be considered a repetition of something to have something.

Walking to work

Walking to metro

Walking to home

Real life is full of GRIND.

But what in those grinds, can you enjoy? When Walking, I like looking at girls? Signing? Thinking? Looking at that strange bird? That car?....

In real life, things changes... they are dynamic. We can be bored to take the same streets over and over... but the temperature change, the people you will meet change, the animals... everything change without changing a lot of your grind... walking to home.

At least, when we are at home, we can grind something else... doing diner? open TV? change channel? open computer? install a game? everything is grind.

In MMORPG, quests should be based on WORLD Variables. Create any variables: Blood token? FACTION?...

It could be wharehouse stock of a harmlet. It could be a leatherworker in need of leather... it could be anything that fit the scene and need something done by players... dynamic.

Then, you could put dynamic system that oppose groups, guilds, races... DOAC World Variable was like Owning a KEEP. Simple has that. Developper should always create dynamic content, dynamic spawn, dynamic spawn location, dynamic objectives...

MMORPG must evolve into virtual world simulations where everything you got to do will appear like the real thing. And everything change with the offer and demand of those different objectives along with those Dynamic WORLD VARIABLE.

Jourdelune

"Why HARDCODING something that could be re-use really nicely if it is dynamic?"

"HARDCODER don't know what is programming"

M1sf1t · October 2007

Originally posted by mrdoublerr
you dont grind XP in EVE, you grind ISK

No amount of ISK will ever ensure that you can pilot that BS at it's full potential.

Devalon · October 2007

For me to decide what new i first had to make a list of what being done already.

- Unlocking content by completing other content. Example would be dungeons where you would need the key togo to next or quests.

- Equipment or Resources Example: WoW , most RTS

- Abilities / Level / Skill / Experiences Example: Guild Wars, WoW, and UO

- Time/Age Example: Eve

- Knowlegde of content or game-play Example: FPS or Puzzle games another would be WoW raid bosses.

I can not come up with any new ways of grinding. I think the next step would be eliminating the grind and just have content. Anyway anyone know of others that were not mention here send me a pm.

Edit: Most mmos just throw in the DnD system for grind like you said. maybe they should sit down and find out what would be the best for their game.They can do this by Maybe adding the content first then add a grind that fits. This way you can make sure the grind not borring and always remove it if conflicts with the content. For example is leveling and pvp they rarely go together.

CleffyII · October 2007

Aion is a game I really want to get my hands on because of its leveling system. There is no exp, you only gain levels by completing missions/quest arcs. Sounds great on paper, I just want to see if it works.

Mylon · October 2007

One game I played recently that I really enjoyed, at least for a little while, was Two Worlds. Advancement in that game was definitely unique. You can earn exp to get the almighty level, as usual, but in addition to that you could accumulate ingredients to make permanent effect potions to boost stats, you can accumualte spell cards to make spells more powerful, you can do quests to get skill points and have more potent special attacks / latent abilities, and you can also craft weapons by merging similar armors/weapons/rings all together to enhance their stats. If more MMOs had an open advancement scheme like this, I might actually play them! But for most, there's nothing to do between those almighty level dings.

Another game worth looking at is Disgaea and it's related games. In Disgaea levels came pretty cheaply (the single player game ends at level 100, but character advancement goes up to 10,000, some of the bonus content requiring level 6000 characters or so). But you can also enter weapons and armor and level them up. Characters have weapon skills which enhance the power of weapons they hold and give them special attacks. These special attacks and magic spells also have their own skill, which enhances the effect of that particular attack. On top of all of this, there's a reincarnation system that returns a character to level 1, but with higher base stats (and thus faster stat growth) based on their original stats (Think of it this way: 10 strength becomes +1 strength per level, 100 strength becomes +2 strength per level, 1000 strength becomes +3 strength per level. Not totally correct, but a general idea). However, a character keeps most of their skills and special abilities during this process and there are no level restrictions on gear, so such a character can keep their equipment, get a kill, and jump up to level 200 or so easily, not exactly returning them to their former glory, but certainly keeping them in a similar range to what they were before.

So there are other ways to handle character advancement other than basing everything on the almighty level. Just few MMOs are willing to try it.

If I could, I would love to mod FFXI such that all jobs add a small bonus to stats and exp is earned for other jobs based on the party members. So while playing in a group the white mage can suddenly get a level in their warrior class (learning from the warrior in the group) and they get a small HP boost. Or maybe their blackmage level goes up and they get a small MP boost. Or maybe they learn some ninja tricks from the warrior's subjob and their agility goes up. Alternately, when playing a new job one can still benefit from all of their higher jobs by having a decent boost to stats, and at the same time they're not totally neglecting their main job as it will still benefit as well when they change back. The game would also need a boost to draw the PvE away from the boring, "wait here, pull, gank" formula, but I think such an advancement scheme would be an interesting proof of concept.

Unknown · October 2007

whether its "xp" or "money" makes little difference, same mechanic different advancement. Eve may not have the xp character advancement but ISK are the same thing but for equipment advancement.

Mechanics wise you have:

1) a point accumulation system. Xp, money whatever

2) a time based system, like Eve skills

3) use based. Ie. you use a skill and it goes up eventually.

4) an objective based system. Like you see in Vampire Bloodlines, Bioshock, Deus Ex. Either awarding points at the objective completion or finding upgrades etc. These usually mean there are a finite number of points and advancement is very much tied to the where you are in the plot.

#4 is not usually seen in MMOs because they are too generic and too separated from the story. Tabula Rasa has something like it with the logos unlocking abilities, but in the end that games relies on XP since you need skill points to begin with

I have seen various hybrids of these systems as well. Neocron is notable one, where you got xp for doing things on creatures and then used that xp. A sort of use based xp hybrid. I have seen in some MUDs where you gained xp, but then you spent that xp on skills or on leveling, level giving you access to more skills and training skill actually making them work well.

TommyKHart · October 2007

The reason people hate the grind is that they rewally don't have much of a choice of gameplay. Basically thre all hit button 100 times and ding. This is the same with eve and all mmorpgs. The answer is to add enough gameplay systems so the player will find it hard to not have something they enjoy doing.

Ideas

First person shooter - some love this, add it with pvp and people will play for years. Bf for example. Allow players to compete for territory that can be used to create business, residentual and industrial buildings. Allow people to create all sorts of weapons, tanks, planes.

Cities and economic - Turn trade into something far mor complicated and impoved. Allow people to create and design shops and sell to npcs. Player could build up hude cities, players could create illigal businesses, players could get into politics, a whole strategy style game could create something new never before seen in a mmo.

Gangs - Players could get involved in a strategy game to win over drugs / protection money. Rob banks / shops etc

Heists - players could create classes to proform heist. We could gain skills in lock picking, explosives, how to con,. etc

Adventure - allow players to explore cave, tombs, conspiracies, etc. Have a large amount of lore that is interesting and allows the player to feel involved.

Lore - It always feels disconnected in mmorpgs. Add cutscenes, allow the player to be a part of the lore buy forcing him into the role like alot of single player games do. A written story added to quests logs isn't that exciting, there is no need to care about the lore in modern mmorpgs.

More forms of gameplay is the answer to an exciting way to advance. Not picking skills or forms of xp.

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Alternatives to XP and Grinding

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Alternatives to XP and Grinding

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV