I much prefer full open PVP systems but im the type that will find a guild ASAP. my only guess is that many of these next gen players dont wanna take the time to get to know their fellow man
they wanna run out of town and own. haha, why cant they stay in town and make friends? maybe games need to reward high levels better for helping out newbs we shouldnt need guards
on NWN2HAZE server it is FULL PVP, PErmadeath. it takes like 50 hrs to go from level 1 to level 2 I think. i dunno im still a lowbie. chances are ill never see level 2 unless I make friends but they have Timed XP system so high levels encouraged to help us out. Plus, they will permadie for doing something silly anyway
not saying we need permadeath haha. But I am puzzled why arent ppl joining guilds ASAP. in Starport Day 1 on the rebang (start over, all PD) everyone is a nub and we all cling to each other and form guilds. Starport and HAZE one of funniest games ever played edit- btw NWN2HAZE the guards ARE ALL players. no NPC guards. EVeryone NPC in this game is a hostile SOB that will try to PD you. and yet I still live! we only had like 3 griefers show up and they got PD'ed haha
You are very correct. The key to success in an open PvP environment in being an active part of the community. I can't get over the fact that in these PvE games I've tried at least half of the players are running around doing there own thing totally oblivious that there are other people playing too. The key to success in L2 was the Clan system. In an open PvP environment you can be the worst PvPer on the planet and still do just fine as long as your social, I've seen it many many times. Players today need to realize that the first 2 M's in MMORPG stand for Massively Multi-player. If you just want to just do your own thing and not be bothered by other players go play a single player game as they are probably more your thing anyways.
The reason that MMO games are no longer as fun is because of the players. Plain and simple, players have become jaded to the genre and they don't find it fun anymore. The ones that haven't become jaded find the current crop of MMOs to be the most fun of any MMO games. So to simplify it "old school" players who rave about how fun UO, EQ1, AC1 were are now jaded by the Genre and have burnt out. They no longer find the genre fun and hold onto these ideas that it is because "grindish" type of game mechanics were taking out of the game. When in fact it is because as players they can't enjoy the games anymore. And "new school" players (and also players who haven't become burnt out) are enjoying one of the MMO games that is currently out and is looking forward to one of the new games coming out. Not because it has to do anything different, but because they are ready for the next new game to tackle. They aren't burnt out by the genre at all and are enjoying themselves.
We read it all the time. "I want a sandbox game again" Which translates into a world with no real direction what so ever, for the vast majority of players this would be boring. But these old school players think it will help them recapture the fun they had in UO. Or "I want full loot PVP to make it exciting" - same thing here. Old school players think that what made their old UO exciting was the prospect of looting their enemies, when in reality that is an unnecessary game mechanic that unduly punishes people. The same excitement can come just from the challenge of defeating another opponent. We know this to be true based on sports in general. Most people that play sports do not win anything more then bragging rights at the end of a match. Or "I want a death penalty that means something, I want to fear death" (my personal favorite ridiculous game mechanic) Fear death in a video game? Where you respawn? Or worse case scenario you can always make a new character? What is there to fear? Nothing. So harsher death penalties are a game mechanic of the past that is an annoyance not an addition to the quality of a game. Or "A MMO should be about grouping and everyone should have to group" - well this one is pretty silly. MMO games have always been about playing in a world with other people. Not specifically about grouping and especially not about large groups. Heck MMOs come from RPGS and in pen & paper RPGs you would usually have only 2-4 people in a group when you are playing. This is another left over dinosaur of an idea from Everquest 1. Forced Grouping does not equate to a good community. We have seen that in the WoW Raid atmosphere. How many loot whore raid guilds are there in WoW? I know when I was playing there would be around 5-10 guilds working on the top level of current endgame instances and usually only 2-3 of those were Guild first type of guilds. The other 3-7 of them were Loot factories. They were a guild that came together for only one purpose and that was the aquisition of loot. These are some of the points I hear people bring up all the time and they all point to there being something wrong with the players and not the actual genre itself. Pretty much each of these supposedly "wrong" things with current MMO games would make the game better, but in fact they are out of the genre for a reason. They were all things that players didn't enjoy. That is why they were removed from the majority of our MMO experience.
I agree with your point that it's not necessarily the games that are to blame. There is a different sort of gaming culture today than in previous times.
I disagree that the reason we have "new school games" is because the "old school games" didn't work, or that the new games are more fun. The problem as I see it is that the gamer today is making the business of play take precedence over the play.
In the old days, we took players as they were, didn't have things like official forums to gloat on, ladders, and these huge 200 man gaming clans with their own comms. Farming wasn't as prevalent back then, and we didn't organize our time in the games as some sort of exercise in efficient time management. Guilds were almost an afterthought, and we took chances, because we didn't view the games as an exercise in risk management. In short, we were naiive, and had a desire to suspend our disbelief, rather than metagame and play to the probabilities like we do today.
Like you, I don't believe that the reason EQ and UO were good is because of the "sandboxy" aspects you list. Rather, it was the beautifully naiive players that made the "sandboxy" aspects work as beautifully as they did. MMO players have become so professionalized and serious that we can't play a game like UO or EQ without turning it into trash, and Shadowbane and Vanguard are proof of this. Adding things like full loot PvP and forced grouping back now isn't going to replace the innocence of that early time. Rather, all it will do is push players deeper into the metagame, and all the crap that just cheapens the purity of the experience (powerguilds, TS/vent, auctions, farming, K/D ratios, forum swagger, et al). The only players that system will reward are the powergaming twinks who grind out uberbuilds. No diversity, no immersion, and no fun.
As players, our tolerance for risk and "wasted time" (ironic because the point of these games is to waste time in an amusing manner) has become small. Therefore, it's no suprise that the depth and scope of the games have become small, and that's where you and I differ. The games today aren't better, the culture of playing has become worse.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I agree with your point that it's not necessarily the games that are to blame. There is a different sort of gaming culture today than in previous times.
I disagree that the reason we have "new school games" is because the "old school games" didn't work, or that the new games are more fun. The problem as I see it is that the gamer today is making the business of play take precedence over the play. In the old days, we took players as they were, didn't have things like official forums to gloat on, ladders, and these huge 200 man gaming clans with their own comms. Farming wasn't as prevalent back then, and we didn't organize our time in the games as some sort of exercise in efficient time management. Guilds were almost an afterthought, and we took chances, because we didn't view the games as an exercise in risk management. In short, we were naiive, and had a desire to suspend our disbelief, rather than metagame and play to the probabilities like we do today. Like you, I don't believe that the reason EQ and UO were good is because of the "sandboxy" aspects you list. Rather, it was the beautifully naiive players that made the "sandboxy" aspects work as beautifully as they did. MMO players have become so professionalized and serious that we can't play a game like UO or EQ without turning it into trash, and Shadowbane and Vanguard are proof of this. Adding things like full loot PvP and forced grouping back now isn't going to replace the innocence of that early time. Rather, all it will do is push players deeper into the metagame, and all the crap that just cheapens the purity of the experience (powerguilds, TS/vent, auctions, farming, K/D ratios, forum swagger, et al). The only players that system will reward are the powergaming twinks who grind out uberbuilds. No diversity, no immersion, and no fun. As players, our tolerance for risk and "wasted time" (ironic because the point of these games is to waste time in an amusing manner) has become small. Therefore, it's no suprise that the depth and scope of the games have become small, and that's where you and I differ. The games today aren't better, the culture of playing has become worse.
If you are of legal age I would like to buy you a beer every day for the rest of your life. One, for being correct and two, for forming a well thought out post.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
The reason that MMO games are no longer as fun is because of the players. Plain and simple, players have become jaded to the genre and they don't find it fun anymore. The ones that haven't become jaded find the current crop of MMOs to be the most fun of any MMO games. So to simplify it "old school" players who rave about how fun UO, EQ1, AC1 were are now jaded by the Genre and have burnt out. They no longer find the genre fun and hold onto these ideas that it is because "grindish" type of game mechanics were taking out of the game. When in fact it is because as players they can't enjoy the games anymore. And "new school" players (and also players who haven't become burnt out) are enjoying one of the MMO games that is currently out and is looking forward to one of the new games coming out. Not because it has to do anything different, but because they are ready for the next new game to tackle. They aren't burnt out by the genre at all and are enjoying themselves.
We read it all the time. "I want a sandbox game again" Which translates into a world with no real direction what so ever, for the vast majority of players this would be boring. But these old school players think it will help them recapture the fun they had in UO. Or "I want full loot PVP to make it exciting" - same thing here. Old school players think that what made their old UO exciting was the prospect of looting their enemies, when in reality that is an unnecessary game mechanic that unduly punishes people. The same excitement can come just from the challenge of defeating another opponent. We know this to be true based on sports in general. Most people that play sports do not win anything more then bragging rights at the end of a match. Or "I want a death penalty that means something, I want to fear death" (my personal favorite ridiculous game mechanic) Fear death in a video game? Where you respawn? Or worse case scenario you can always make a new character? What is there to fear? Nothing. So harsher death penalties are a game mechanic of the past that is an annoyance not an addition to the quality of a game. Or "A MMO should be about grouping and everyone should have to group" - well this one is pretty silly. MMO games have always been about playing in a world with other people. Not specifically about grouping and especially not about large groups. Heck MMOs come from RPGS and in pen & paper RPGs you would usually have only 2-4 people in a group when you are playing. This is another left over dinosaur of an idea from Everquest 1. Forced Grouping does not equate to a good community. We have seen that in the WoW Raid atmosphere. How many loot whore raid guilds are there in WoW? I know when I was playing there would be around 5-10 guilds working on the top level of current endgame instances and usually only 2-3 of those were Guild first type of guilds. The other 3-7 of them were Loot factories. They were a guild that came together for only one purpose and that was the aquisition of loot. These are some of the points I hear people bring up all the time and they all point to there being something wrong with the players and not the actual genre itself. Pretty much each of these supposedly "wrong" things with current MMO games would make the game better, but in fact they are out of the genre for a reason. They were all things that players didn't enjoy. That is why they were removed from the majority of our MMO experience.
I agree with your point that it's not necessarily the games that are to blame. There is a different sort of gaming culture today than in previous times.
I disagree that the reason we have "new school games" is because the "old school games" didn't work, or that the new games are more fun. The problem as I see it is that the gamer today is making the business of play take precedence over the play.
In the old days, we took players as they were, didn't have things like official forums to gloat on, ladders, and these huge 200 man gaming clans with their own comms. Farming wasn't as prevalent back then, and we didn't organize our time in the games as some sort of exercise in efficient time management. Guilds were almost an afterthought, and we took chances, because we didn't view the games as an exercise in risk management. In short, we were naiive, and had a desire to suspend our disbelief, rather than metagame and play to the probabilities like we do today.
Like you, I don't believe that the reason EQ and UO were good is because of the "sandboxy" aspects you list. Rather, it was the beautifully naiive players that made the "sandboxy" aspects work as beautifully as they did. MMO players have become so professionalized and serious that we can't play a game like UO or EQ without turning it into trash, and Shadowbane and Vanguard are proof of this. Adding things like full loot PvP and forced grouping back now isn't going to replace the innocence of that early time. Rather, all it will do is push players deeper into the metagame, and all the crap that just cheapens the purity of the experience (powerguilds, TS/vent, auctions, farming, K/D ratios, forum swagger, et al). The only players that system will reward are the powergaming twinks who grind out uberbuilds. No diversity, no immersion, and no fun.
As players, our tolerance for risk and "wasted time" (ironic because the point of these games is to waste time in an amusing manner) has become small. Therefore, it's no suprise that the depth and scope of the games have become small, and that's where you and I differ. The games today aren't better, the culture of playing has become worse.
Nice, but you do have to agree that games are becoming more casual than before. And too easy and too linear do not make a good play environment. It's like telling a kid to play with Lego but he has to follow the directions in the booklet and most of the hard parts are already put together.
I'm all for sandbox, because I don't like t do what the game tells me to do. Ex: In WoW I tried to solo Azuregos when I was level 14. Ex: I spent 3 days trying to find a nice place to make a fire and fish. Ex: I had a level 6 human run (using only hidden paths) from Westfall, through and old unused country, found an empty shack, and ended up running to Loch Modan(it's a long way away). I rarely play games the way that they're meant to be played. I have yet to finish any of the guilds in Oblivion except the thieves guild. In Morrowind I build a house out of misc' objects (Ex: Pillows, Lamps, Books, etc). I spend entire games of Worms3D building massive bases out of the dirt with a shotgun and girders. In RTSs I always build an economically flourishing empire whether you are allowed to win through peace or not. Well once I made a peasant army in AoE2:AoK. My ideal game is a complete sandbox. I wish that they still made sandbox MMOs. I mean, I'm a bit of an extreme case but, I'm just saying that we're out here maintaining the naivety. We are the type that join guilds to have fun, the ones that hate having to do anything in particular, and the ones who find people who like powerguilds, vent, farming, twinking, and people who are obsessive about K/D ratios strange.
Nice, but you do have to agree that games are becoming more casual than before. And too easy and too linear do not make a good play environment. It's like telling a kid to play with Lego but he has to follow the directions in the booklet and most of the hard parts are already put together.
I'm all for sandbox, because I don't like t do what the game tells me to do. Ex: In WoW I tried to solo Azuregos when I was level 14. Ex: I spent 3 days trying to find a nice place to make a fire and fish. Ex: I had a level 6 human run (using only hidden paths) from Westfall, through and old unused country, found an empty shack, and ended up running to Loch Modan(it's a long way away). I rarely play games the way that they're meant to be played. I have yet to finish any of the guilds in Oblivion except the thieves guild. In Morrowind I build a house out of misc' objects (Ex: Pillows, Lamps, Books, etc). I spend entire games of Worms3D building massive bases out of the dirt with a shotgun and girders. In RTSs I always build an economically flourishing empire whether you are allowed to win through peace or not. Well once I made a peasant army in AoE2:AoK. My ideal game is a complete sandbox. I wish that they still made sandbox MMOs. I mean, I'm a bit of an extreme case but, I'm just saying that we're out here maintaining the naivety. We are the type that join guilds to have fun, the ones that hate having to do anything in particular, and the ones who find people who like powerguilds, vent, farming, twinking, and people who are obsessive about K/D ratios strange. ME FTW!
No man, you and me FTW.
I'm with you, and I play like you do. I don't think that the games have become more "casual." In fact, quite the opposite. SWG (back when it was good) was one of the most casual friendly games I knew. We didn't have 40 man raids or DKP like in WoW. Instead, we had the 20 man "PUG-o-Thons" on Endor and Dathomir! People would grab two missions, join the PUG, and maybe do 2 or three missions and leave, but the group continued. In those days, we didn't care if we invited the dancer or the chef, and we didn't use TS or Vent. It was just the thing to do, and everyone had a good time.
In my opinion, the whole "casual" versus "hardcore" distinction is a non-starter, because you can be a hardcore user on a so-called casual game (like WoW), or a casual player on a so-called hardcore game (like EVE).
What made the "sandbox" games "hardcore" is that the developers made it so easy to stay logged on. SWG made trivial things like standing at the starport or in the cantina doing nothing but peep watching fun. In fact, I used to say that in SWG, I could spend a whole afternoon just sitting in the starport, and never feel like I was wasting my time. Now that is a game that encourages hardcore hours, my friend!
I can't say the same about the new SWG. In the new SWG, there is no reason to stay logged on unless you are doing something, and the actual doing of things is so visually taxing, you are mentally drained after you do it, and you want to log off. Same thing with CoH, or WoW. It's really a test of will to keep grinding, because the combat is much more taxing to execute.
I honestly believe that the games are designed these days to encourage logging off, rather than staying logged on. The reason for this is partly to discourage grinding, overloaded servers, and more subscription months. I also think it's because powergamers who have no real desire to "live" in the world found the earler games too easy, or too unlike what they are used to (FPS games, mostly).
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Beatnik59 As players, our tolerance for risk and "wasted time" (ironic because the point of these games is to waste time in an amusing manner) has become small. Therefore, it's no surprise that the depth and scope of the games have become small, and that's where you and I differ. The games today aren't better, the culture of playing has become worse.
I had not thought about this aspect before. But I 100% agree with you.
If you think about it, in UO we had normal weapons, crafted weapons, GM crafted weapons, & magic weapons. There were no stats on these weapons as there are today. We didn't know that a certain GM crafted katana would do 8.3 dps or a katana of vanquishing did 23.5 dps. We just knew that one did more damage then the other. Also there was no AC on armor, we just used common sense that plate armor would protect better than leather armor. It was like that in every aspect of the game. It was more of a "real" way to do everything in the game.
In real life you don't purchase a gun based on dps.
If a game came out exactly like UO today (but prettier) it would be a niche game. Most MMO players these day expect things to be in the games that they play (which is funny because the same people that bitch about no innovation in games are the same people that would be complaining that this feature or that feature was not in the game). Such as knowledge of weapon damage, armor ratings, monster levels, etc.
It's this type of mentality that I was talking about when I mentioned games getting easier. Not power gamers or casual gamers. I'm purely speaking that the games are easier to "master" in every aspect.
Sometimes it's fun to not know exactly what's around the next corner. The resources that the average gamer (in any genre) has these days is simply astounding & discouraging for game developers to make any secrets or hidden things in their game, because everyone is going to know about them within 24 hours of the first person finding out about it.
Lets take quests for an example. Quests in todays games are handed to us on a silver platter. We know location, what to kill, how to kill it, every aspect of the particular quest that we have been sent on. If the game doesn't give us the info, one of the 20+ quest databases for the game that are online will.
It's kind of like your friend telling you exactly what happens in a movie before you see it. Is the movie really that enjoyable after you know all the plot twists?
This aspect is never going to change & will just continue to get worse as technology progresses. Maybe that's where the root of the problem lies. In the accessibility of information in today's day and age.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Sometimes it's fun to not know exactly what's around the next corner. The resources that the average gamer (in any genre) has these days is simply astounding & discouraging for game developers to make any secrets or hidden things in their game, because everyone is going to know about them within 24 hours of the first person finding out about it. Lets take quests for an example. Quests in todays games are handed to us on a silver platter. We know location, what to kill, how to kill it, every aspect of the particular quest that we have been sent on. If the game doesn't give us the info, one of the 20+ quest databases for the game that are online will. It's kind of like your friend telling you exactly what happens in a movie before you see it. Is the movie really that enjoyable after you know all the plot twists? This aspect is never going to change & will just continue to get worse as technology progresses. Maybe that's where the root of the problem lies. In the accessibility of information in today's day and age.
i played for years before even being aware that all my answers were a click away, i might try and find a list of /commands, or try and find a skill tree to decide on class, but that was about it - ignorance was bliss
also i recommend playing games with established communities, there you dont get powergamers that seem to turn everything into a grind race which just seems to suck all the fun out of the game and community - that seems to happen with new games/servers,
"""""It's like voting. You can convince yourself that your vote doesn't count, but you'd be a fool.""""
EDIT---following paragraph was humor not a political debate ----
Bad example, because when all there is to vote for are fools, picking the best fool is ludicrous. Anybody who would aspire to power should'nt have it after all
TO THE SUBJECT--->
As for indie games being the only place you will EVER find somthing new? thats weak, It will happen its just going to take time, I predict that as these threads are now very commonplace we will in the next few years see a few huge companies get it right.
90% of everything in every genre is pretty much crap and only 1% great. Truth is warcraft is sadly the best of its model ( far from my ideal)
What will happen is another game will come out with something truly new and everyone will clone that. thats the one trend that is true in everything from sports to movies.
The reason I am bored of MMo's though is because soloers are punished, and guilds are rewaded with powers instead of perks, and PvE in MMo's is a joke. 95% of people playing games where you can solo are, yet developers are still blind to this. If I could solo and be every bit as powerful as a player in a guild I'd still be playing WoW for the PvP aspect....until PvE is compelling in MMO's id rather just pay for battleground access.
Because they are too easy and treat gamers as if they are stupid with dummied down mechanics and gameplay.
Too many developers and gamers are focused on the "so called" endgame instead of the journey and making the games challenging, fun, and interesting from the start.
Nice, but you do have to agree that games are becoming more casual than before. And too easy and too linear do not make a good play environment. It's like telling a kid to play with Lego but he has to follow the directions in the booklet and most of the hard parts are already put together.
I'm all for sandbox, because I don't like t do what the game tells me to do. Ex: In WoW I tried to solo Azuregos when I was level 14. Ex: I spent 3 days trying to find a nice place to make a fire and fish. Ex: I had a level 6 human run (using only hidden paths) from Westfall, through and old unused country, found an empty shack, and ended up running to Loch Modan(it's a long way away). I rarely play games the way that they're meant to be played. I have yet to finish any of the guilds in Oblivion except the thieves guild. In Morrowind I build a house out of misc' objects (Ex: Pillows, Lamps, Books, etc). I spend entire games of Worms3D building massive bases out of the dirt with a shotgun and girders. In RTSs I always build an economically flourishing empire whether you are allowed to win through peace or not. Well once I made a peasant army in AoE2:AoK. My ideal game is a complete sandbox. I wish that they still made sandbox MMOs. I mean, I'm a bit of an extreme case but, I'm just saying that we're out here maintaining the naivety. We are the type that join guilds to have fun, the ones that hate having to do anything in particular, and the ones who find people who like powerguilds, vent, farming, twinking, and people who are obsessive about K/D ratios strange. ME FTW!
No man, you and me FTW.
I'm with you, and I play like you do. I don't think that the games have become more "casual." In fact, quite the opposite. SWG (back when it was good) was one of the most casual friendly games I knew. We didn't have 40 man raids or DKP like in WoW. Instead, we had the 20 man "PUG-o-Thons" on Endor and Dathomir! People would grab two missions, join the PUG, and maybe do 2 or three missions and leave, but the group continued. In those days, we didn't care if we invited the dancer or the chef, and we didn't use TS or Vent. It was just the thing to do, and everyone had a good time.
In my opinion, the whole "casual" versus "hardcore" distinction is a non-starter, because you can be a hardcore user on a so-called casual game (like WoW), or a casual player on a so-called hardcore game (like EVE).
What made the "sandbox" games "hardcore" is that the developers made it so easy to stay logged on. SWG made trivial things like standing at the starport or in the cantina doing nothing but peep watching fun. In fact, I used to say that in SWG, I could spend a whole afternoon just sitting in the starport, and never feel like I was wasting my time. Now that is a game that encourages hardcore hours, my friend!
I can't say the same about the new SWG. In the new SWG, there is no reason to stay logged on unless you are doing something, and the actual doing of things is so visually taxing, you are mentally drained after you do it, and you want to log off. Same thing with CoH, or WoW. It's really a test of will to keep grinding, because the combat is much more taxing to execute.
I honestly believe that the games are designed these days to encourage logging off, rather than staying logged on. The reason for this is partly to discourage grinding, overloaded servers, and more subscription months. I also think it's because powergamers who have no real desire to "live" in the world found the earler games too easy, or too unlike what they are used to (FPS games, mostly).
Very good points ....
Today it seems more about achieving, then enjoying ... I find myself logging into several newer mmorp's just to "enhance" my character or simply wondering "what to do now??"... while in SWG i spend 6 days in a row walking accross Endor to find and tame that one rare baby, setting up my tent everywhere, enjoying scenery and music ... and i had a blast !!
Making this post has made me want to play FFXI again. I loved that game because of the forced grouping aspect. Sure, call me a masochist not being able to play on my own time, but the game forcing me to be with people really helped the community shine. I highly doubt I will start a subscription again, but I just wish I could have a community like I found in FFXI.
Still, forced grouping is annoying, although I still find it fun. I would like to be able to solo effectively if no one is around to group with, but if solo'ing is TOO easy, then the community starts to split themselves from the community as a whole, therefore falling into another WoW, possibly the worst community I have ever seen in a MMORPG.
People should be restricted to a certain number of character per post for topics like this, you need a day free just to read it all... so you don't :P
Knowing when to stop typing is knowing how to make a point.
I played WoW until it became clear how futile the grind was. I've tried everything with half decent graphics since i stopped playing WoW and as soon as i get the feeling i'm having to grind my interest shuts down.
The two games i have really really enjoyed playing since i stopped playing WoW are DDO and CoH. They are just fun, non-hardcore, social games...
Nice, but you do have to agree that games are becoming more casual than before. And too easy and too linear do not make a good play environment. It's like telling a kid to play with Lego but he has to follow the directions in the booklet and most of the hard parts are already put together.
I'm all for sandbox, because I don't like t do what the game tells me to do. Ex: In WoW I tried to solo Azuregos when I was level 14. Ex: I spent 3 days trying to find a nice place to make a fire and fish. Ex: I had a level 6 human run (using only hidden paths) from Westfall, through and old unused country, found an empty shack, and ended up running to Loch Modan(it's a long way away). I rarely play games the way that they're meant to be played. I have yet to finish any of the guilds in Oblivion except the thieves guild. In Morrowind I build a house out of misc' objects (Ex: Pillows, Lamps, Books, etc). I spend entire games of Worms3D building massive bases out of the dirt with a shotgun and girders. In RTSs I always build an economically flourishing empire whether you are allowed to win through peace or not. Well once I made a peasant army in AoE2:AoK. My ideal game is a complete sandbox. I wish that they still made sandbox MMOs. I mean, I'm a bit of an extreme case but, I'm just saying that we're out here maintaining the naivety. We are the type that join guilds to have fun, the ones that hate having to do anything in particular, and the ones who find people who like powerguilds, vent, farming, twinking, and people who are obsessive about K/D ratios strange. ME FTW!
No man, you and me FTW.
I'm with you, and I play like you do. I don't think that the games have become more "casual." In fact, quite the opposite. SWG (back when it was good) was one of the most casual friendly games I knew. We didn't have 40 man raids or DKP like in WoW. Instead, we had the 20 man "PUG-o-Thons" on Endor and Dathomir! People would grab two missions, join the PUG, and maybe do 2 or three missions and leave, but the group continued. In those days, we didn't care if we invited the dancer or the chef, and we didn't use TS or Vent. It was just the thing to do, and everyone had a good time.
In my opinion, the whole "casual" versus "hardcore" distinction is a non-starter, because you can be a hardcore user on a so-called casual game (like WoW), or a casual player on a so-called hardcore game (like EVE).
What made the "sandbox" games "hardcore" is that the developers made it so easy to stay logged on. SWG made trivial things like standing at the starport or in the cantina doing nothing but peep watching fun. In fact, I used to say that in SWG, I could spend a whole afternoon just sitting in the starport, and never feel like I was wasting my time. Now that is a game that encourages hardcore hours, my friend!
I can't say the same about the new SWG. In the new SWG, there is no reason to stay logged on unless you are doing something, and the actual doing of things is so visually taxing, you are mentally drained after you do it, and you want to log off. Same thing with CoH, or WoW. It's really a test of will to keep grinding, because the combat is much more taxing to execute.
I honestly believe that the games are designed these days to encourage logging off, rather than staying logged on. The reason for this is partly to discourage grinding, overloaded servers, and more subscription months. I also think it's because powergamers who have no real desire to "live" in the world found the earler games too easy, or too unlike what they are used to (FPS games, mostly).
Very good points ....
Today it seems more about achieving, then enjoying ... I find myself logging into several newer mmorp's just to "enhance" my character or simply wondering "what to do now??"... while in SWG i spend 6 days in a row walking accross Endor to find and tame that one rare baby, setting up my tent everywhere, enjoying scenery and music ... and i had a blast !!
Some really well thought out points.
I think Dark Age of Camelot was the last of actual casual friendly game play until they added ToA. In Classic DAoC and even the SI expansion you could pug all of the content. If you weren't as coordinated then you just brought more people with you. 100 man public raids were pretty common place. Asheron's Call 1 was like this as well. You would just bring who ever wanted to come to do the content.
Now though we have these professional guilds that treat the games like a job. The biggest problem that has caused this is Raid Caps. World of Warcraft would be the best casual game all the way through if they did away with raid number caps. Can't pug a raid dungeon with 40 well then get 80 people. It also really adds to the Server community feel. Because you end up with the more accomplished guild's running public quests and public raids to help gear up other players. (not all guilds will do it, but quite a lot will. I know in DAoC on the PVE server the number 1 guild on the server for a long time was Legion and they ran public quests as well as private guild only raids).
PVP is a way to build up a community feel, but it doesn't require full loot FFA in order to do it. Heck on Harvestgain in AC1 we had a PVP community feel and you had to flag yourself as PVP when you wanted to PVP. (when you did go red it made you FFA and you could be looted though) Dark age of camelot had the second best community feel of any game I have played. (AC1 being the best)
There are many ways to better provide a community in an MMO. Do away with a central currency. That was what worked the best in AC1. Pyreals were pretty worthless for a long time. So instead people used a barter system. Combining a barter system with a true RoG loot system was awesome. It made hunting exciting because you never knew what the mob was going to drop. It could be an awesome bow or it could be a worthless item like a shield of cooking mastery.
Also with the barter system doing away with Auction Houses and player stores. Make trading have to be interactive. Or at least make it take place in some sort of forum system. So there is more reason to interact. Placing your item on the AH and then forgetting about it until you get your mail (in wow) or until you head back to the Broker and see your sales (like in EQ2) is detrimental to a community feel.
Or do away with "uber raid loot" make raid loot a cosmetic type of upgrade instead of a power type of upgrade and make crafted loot the best loot in the game. Then make sure that the crafters need things from other players in order to make these items. For instance a raid dropped item can be turned into a cool sword, shield, or armor. This promotes better interaction.
And the biggest thing that would make the games lately better is stop the Mudflation. World of Warcraft has gotten ridiculous with the increased power of their items. Asheron's Call really had this the best of any game I have played. I used the same bow at level 60ish that I used at level 120 as well. My bow was just a bow. It wasn't super powerful my skill at using it got more powerful and that was what mattered. MMO games really need to get back to the character and less about the loot. Dark Age of Camelot was like that as well before Trials of Atlantis and artifacts came out. Back when Spellcrafting first was out and playercrafted and overcharged spellcrafted loot was pretty much the best to use.
I remember going on a raid because I wanted to win a sword in DAoC. Not because it was super powerful but because it looked like a light saber.
Personally my Ideal game would be a Realm Vs Realm game like DAoC, With World of Warcraft's smooth animations and user interface, Asheron's Call 1's leveling system (maybe not 275 levels though ) and AC1's random loot system. Combine that all into a well thought out world and you would have my ideal game.
Honestly if Turbine re-released AC1 with an updated graphics engine, without decal, and added a RvR component I would be extremely happy.
CPmmo, I agree with your list of things SOME people wish for that are stupid, but I don't agree with your "old-school vs. new-school" analysis at all.
I've been playing since UO, and I don't wish for the return of any of those things. I recognize that games are evolving and have improved in many ways. But just as often, they go in stupid directions because they know people are afraid of any kind of challenge. Well, sorry, but lack of challenge does not make for a good game.
There are plenty of MMO veterans who still enjoy games. I still play. Most old-school MMOers I have known still play one MMOG or another. We are not burned out. I wouldn't even say we're jaded, just more mature and more discriminating in our tastes.
One big problem is that startup studios tend to hire fresh young faces because they are cheap and eager to be exploited. There aren't a lot of mature people out there doing the grunt work of writing and level design -- most of those have been bought up by the big companies who can afford to pay them what they are worth.
Unfortunately, that means Blizzard. WoW isn't a bad game in most respects. Its biggest problem is that it is too big, which means the community is rotten to the core.
When someone has done the same thing over and over and over again, they get bored with it. It's human nature to want to move forward in things and try new things.
Driving
Work
Walking
Television
Music
MMORPG
These are just a few examples of things I am bored with. Therefor I don't watch television, listen to the music I want to (Not the radio), I stopped playing MMORPGs, I walk all over actually... driving to and from work's a chore (hour+ sometimes), work is work, but it has its days.
So, if you stop from MMORPGs and don't play them 15 hours a day, then they wouldn't be so bad. But as soon as you start to overdo anything, you'll get burned out. Just like I did in Guild Wars. After two years, I'm about done pulling my hair out.
most mainstreams care more about visuals than if the game is any good... And people eat right out of their hand if they made a game to walk around and do nothing at all and it had life-like graphics everyone would flock to it because it was 'new' and looks nice
most mainstreams care more about visuals than if the game is any good... And people eat right out of their hand if they made a game to walk around and do nothing at all and it had life-like graphics everyone would flock to it because it was 'new' and looks nice
I really don't think this is the case. Most casual gamers don't have very good machines so they wouldn't be able to experience these great graphics anyways. Besides, World of Warcraft is a great success and it doesn't have amazing (technical) graphics. Yes, it has a unique artstyle that anyone can appreciate, but it is by no means demanding on a system. Practically anyone with a decent computer built in the past 10 years can run WoW without a problem, unless you start running the 40 man instances and the like.
I really don't think casuals are the cause of MMORPGs not being fun anymore. I really think it is the developers not being able to take as many risks as we saw in the beginning ages of the MMORPG because everything costs way too much money, and in the MMORPG market, it's very hard to break people away from what they're playing now to try out something new. Therefore it's a lot of upfront costs with NO guaranteed benefits.
Sure, those of us who have played a lot of MMORPGs over the years will appreciate a new game, but we are by far in the minority and are not enough for a developer to go out of their way to make the newest, innovative game.
Originally posted by ParkCarsHereI say all that to ask this question: why aren't MMORPGs fun anymore? It seems like the same old stuff keeps being recycled back to us with different graphics, but same old mechanics.
You answered your own question.
MMORPGs are fun still... if you're fresh to the genre, everything out there in one form or another is duplicating Everquest for the most part with incremental improvements in game play and significant improvements in graphics. The next couple generations of games will attempt to duplicate warcraft which was a duplicate of everquest... unfortunately for those of us who have been playing for any significant amount of time... we're bored outta our heads. Reskin something we've done 3,000 times and what do you get? Something we've done 3001 times with a new skin on top. Level based/class based systems are far to limiting in the long run... but skill systems offer to much chance to gimp yourself for new players to grasp the intricacies of. It's catch-22.
Shrug. Eventually ALL of the level based games will start dying off slowly and the new ones wont get the subscriber base because people are bored and then the industry will start looking in new directions and try new ideas... but until then expect more eq1/wow/eq2/etc.
Nice, but you do have to agree that games are becoming more casual than before. And too easy and too linear do not make a good play environment. It's like telling a kid to play with Lego but he has to follow the directions in the booklet and most of the hard parts are already put together.
I'm all for sandbox, because I don't like t do what the game tells me to do. Ex: In WoW I tried to solo Azuregos when I was level 14. Ex: I spent 3 days trying to find a nice place to make a fire and fish. Ex: I had a level 6 human run (using only hidden paths) from Westfall, through and old unused country, found an empty shack, and ended up running to Loch Modan(it's a long way away). I rarely play games the way that they're meant to be played. I have yet to finish any of the guilds in Oblivion except the thieves guild. In Morrowind I build a house out of misc' objects (Ex: Pillows, Lamps, Books, etc). I spend entire games of Worms3D building massive bases out of the dirt with a shotgun and girders. In RTSs I always build an economically flourishing empire whether you are allowed to win through peace or not. Well once I made a peasant army in AoE2:AoK. My ideal game is a complete sandbox. I wish that they still made sandbox MMOs. I mean, I'm a bit of an extreme case but, I'm just saying that we're out here maintaining the naivety. We are the type that join guilds to have fun, the ones that hate having to do anything in particular, and the ones who find people who like powerguilds, vent, farming, twinking, and people who are obsessive about K/D ratios strange. ME FTW!
No man, you and me FTW.
I'm with you, and I play like you do. I don't think that the games have become more "casual." In fact, quite the opposite. SWG (back when it was good) was one of the most casual friendly games I knew. We didn't have 40 man raids or DKP like in WoW. Instead, we had the 20 man "PUG-o-Thons" on Endor and Dathomir! People would grab two missions, join the PUG, and maybe do 2 or three missions and leave, but the group continued. In those days, we didn't care if we invited the dancer or the chef, and we didn't use TS or Vent. It was just the thing to do, and everyone had a good time.
In my opinion, the whole "casual" versus "hardcore" distinction is a non-starter, because you can be a hardcore user on a so-called casual game (like WoW), or a casual player on a so-called hardcore game (like EVE).
What made the "sandbox" games "hardcore" is that the developers made it so easy to stay logged on. SWG made trivial things like standing at the starport or in the cantina doing nothing but peep watching fun. In fact, I used to say that in SWG, I could spend a whole afternoon just sitting in the starport, and never feel like I was wasting my time. Now that is a game that encourages hardcore hours, my friend!
I can't say the same about the new SWG. In the new SWG, there is no reason to stay logged on unless you are doing something, and the actual doing of things is so visually taxing, you are mentally drained after you do it, and you want to log off. Same thing with CoH, or WoW. It's really a test of will to keep grinding, because the combat is much more taxing to execute.
I honestly believe that the games are designed these days to encourage logging off, rather than staying logged on. The reason for this is partly to discourage grinding, overloaded servers, and more subscription months. I also think it's because powergamers who have no real desire to "live" in the world found the earler games too easy, or too unlike what they are used to (FPS games, mostly).
Yes, us FTW.
I do stuff like sit at an inn for hours as well, as I posted above. But I honestly do believe that games are getting more and more casual. WoW is an interesting example because it draws people in with it's casualness and then basically says "Congratulations! You maxed out your character, but unless you get the best equipment he's now pretty much useless." and makes you do hour long raids. Games are getting way too "to the point", I like sitting around from time to time. Now there's no reason to do so. Too much, I have to level otherwise me and my friends aren't going to be able to screw around in the same places any more. All my friends love to screw around, but we're all drawn by that carrot on a stick to some degree, me less than most of the others. So while they're doing quests and getting new equipment, I can no longer just screw around. I now have to go out and level, because if my friend is 10 levels ahead of me, he doesn't have as much fun getting into my antics because he can get out to easily, and I don't have fun in his zones because I die to fast. I really miss the games where the draw to just have fun was stronger than the draw to be proficient and top level.
Everything with this new wave of MMOs is just getting so screwed up. I'm looking at a lot of the upcoming MMOs, and the horizon seems pretty bleak. WAR looks like it'll have too much of a draw to do stuff, and get it done for me to get too far into. AoC seems like all the fun is going to be end game, not for me. DF looks good but I doubt the devs will carry out their promises. PotBS would be good if it didn't reset, still wouldn't be for me though.
Back to the Casual vs Hardcore debate. My position rests more in the hands of how games "encourage logging off" now a days. It's set up so that players can go out and achieve for an hour or two and then leave. It's just getting so bloody bleak. I want a game that encourages you to just sit around and wait for something to happen. I want a world in which I can do more than just quest, grind, raid, and pvp. I want a game where you can affect the world, even if just by being dumb. Mostly though I want a game that doesn't make we want to put my head through a wall. They're just games, your meant to have fun not work your ass off so that you can stay profficient.
Originally posted by Cathalaode Originally posted by Herodes without any reading but the topic, with a big chaance showing that I am an idiot: Age and experience.
without any reading but the topic, with a big chaance showing that I am an idiot:
Age and experience.
Well, it's a good start.
No, my young friend.
It is the end.
I've been playing "vidja games" for as long as I can remember. Eleven years later, I still find them fun. It's just that the newer games that are so much more direct have lost all the fun. (see my previous posts for more details). I still play Morrowing, Diablo, Civ2, HoM&M 4, etc..., but I also still play my new games like Civ4, Oblivion and the like. A lot of us have developed "leaned helplessness" which is my guess (It's something I learning in my Phsychology course). We just blame ourselves for games not being fun anymore, we just say "I'm just too used to games, they don't surprise me anymore. Nothing I can do about it", and the rest of us say "Games aren't as good as they used to be" and blame the companies. It's somewhere in between.
Comments
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
I agree with your point that it's not necessarily the games that are to blame. There is a different sort of gaming culture today than in previous times.
I disagree that the reason we have "new school games" is because the "old school games" didn't work, or that the new games are more fun. The problem as I see it is that the gamer today is making the business of play take precedence over the play.
In the old days, we took players as they were, didn't have things like official forums to gloat on, ladders, and these huge 200 man gaming clans with their own comms. Farming wasn't as prevalent back then, and we didn't organize our time in the games as some sort of exercise in efficient time management. Guilds were almost an afterthought, and we took chances, because we didn't view the games as an exercise in risk management. In short, we were naiive, and had a desire to suspend our disbelief, rather than metagame and play to the probabilities like we do today.
Like you, I don't believe that the reason EQ and UO were good is because of the "sandboxy" aspects you list. Rather, it was the beautifully naiive players that made the "sandboxy" aspects work as beautifully as they did. MMO players have become so professionalized and serious that we can't play a game like UO or EQ without turning it into trash, and Shadowbane and Vanguard are proof of this. Adding things like full loot PvP and forced grouping back now isn't going to replace the innocence of that early time. Rather, all it will do is push players deeper into the metagame, and all the crap that just cheapens the purity of the experience (powerguilds, TS/vent, auctions, farming, K/D ratios, forum swagger, et al). The only players that system will reward are the powergaming twinks who grind out uberbuilds. No diversity, no immersion, and no fun.
As players, our tolerance for risk and "wasted time" (ironic because the point of these games is to waste time in an amusing manner) has become small. Therefore, it's no suprise that the depth and scope of the games have become small, and that's where you and I differ. The games today aren't better, the culture of playing has become worse.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
If you are of legal age I would like to buy you a beer every day for the rest of your life. One, for being correct and two, for forming a well thought out post.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
I agree with your point that it's not necessarily the games that are to blame. There is a different sort of gaming culture today than in previous times.
I disagree that the reason we have "new school games" is because the "old school games" didn't work, or that the new games are more fun. The problem as I see it is that the gamer today is making the business of play take precedence over the play.
In the old days, we took players as they were, didn't have things like official forums to gloat on, ladders, and these huge 200 man gaming clans with their own comms. Farming wasn't as prevalent back then, and we didn't organize our time in the games as some sort of exercise in efficient time management. Guilds were almost an afterthought, and we took chances, because we didn't view the games as an exercise in risk management. In short, we were naiive, and had a desire to suspend our disbelief, rather than metagame and play to the probabilities like we do today.
Like you, I don't believe that the reason EQ and UO were good is because of the "sandboxy" aspects you list. Rather, it was the beautifully naiive players that made the "sandboxy" aspects work as beautifully as they did. MMO players have become so professionalized and serious that we can't play a game like UO or EQ without turning it into trash, and Shadowbane and Vanguard are proof of this. Adding things like full loot PvP and forced grouping back now isn't going to replace the innocence of that early time. Rather, all it will do is push players deeper into the metagame, and all the crap that just cheapens the purity of the experience (powerguilds, TS/vent, auctions, farming, K/D ratios, forum swagger, et al). The only players that system will reward are the powergaming twinks who grind out uberbuilds. No diversity, no immersion, and no fun.
As players, our tolerance for risk and "wasted time" (ironic because the point of these games is to waste time in an amusing manner) has become small. Therefore, it's no suprise that the depth and scope of the games have become small, and that's where you and I differ. The games today aren't better, the culture of playing has become worse.
Nice, but you do have to agree that games are becoming more casual than before. And too easy and too linear do not make a good play environment. It's like telling a kid to play with Lego but he has to follow the directions in the booklet and most of the hard parts are already put together.I'm all for sandbox, because I don't like t do what the game tells me to do. Ex: In WoW I tried to solo Azuregos when I was level 14. Ex: I spent 3 days trying to find a nice place to make a fire and fish. Ex: I had a level 6 human run (using only hidden paths) from Westfall, through and old unused country, found an empty shack, and ended up running to Loch Modan(it's a long way away). I rarely play games the way that they're meant to be played. I have yet to finish any of the guilds in Oblivion except the thieves guild. In Morrowind I build a house out of misc' objects (Ex: Pillows, Lamps, Books, etc). I spend entire games of Worms3D building massive bases out of the dirt with a shotgun and girders. In RTSs I always build an economically flourishing empire whether you are allowed to win through peace or not. Well once I made a peasant army in AoE2:AoK. My ideal game is a complete sandbox. I wish that they still made sandbox MMOs. I mean, I'm a bit of an extreme case but, I'm just saying that we're out here maintaining the naivety. We are the type that join guilds to have fun, the ones that hate having to do anything in particular, and the ones who find people who like powerguilds, vent, farming, twinking, and people who are obsessive about K/D ratios strange.
ME FTW!
No man, you and me FTW.
I'm with you, and I play like you do. I don't think that the games have become more "casual." In fact, quite the opposite. SWG (back when it was good) was one of the most casual friendly games I knew. We didn't have 40 man raids or DKP like in WoW. Instead, we had the 20 man "PUG-o-Thons" on Endor and Dathomir! People would grab two missions, join the PUG, and maybe do 2 or three missions and leave, but the group continued. In those days, we didn't care if we invited the dancer or the chef, and we didn't use TS or Vent. It was just the thing to do, and everyone had a good time.
In my opinion, the whole "casual" versus "hardcore" distinction is a non-starter, because you can be a hardcore user on a so-called casual game (like WoW), or a casual player on a so-called hardcore game (like EVE).
What made the "sandbox" games "hardcore" is that the developers made it so easy to stay logged on. SWG made trivial things like standing at the starport or in the cantina doing nothing but peep watching fun. In fact, I used to say that in SWG, I could spend a whole afternoon just sitting in the starport, and never feel like I was wasting my time. Now that is a game that encourages hardcore hours, my friend!
I can't say the same about the new SWG. In the new SWG, there is no reason to stay logged on unless you are doing something, and the actual doing of things is so visually taxing, you are mentally drained after you do it, and you want to log off. Same thing with CoH, or WoW. It's really a test of will to keep grinding, because the combat is much more taxing to execute.
I honestly believe that the games are designed these days to encourage logging off, rather than staying logged on. The reason for this is partly to discourage grinding, overloaded servers, and more subscription months. I also think it's because powergamers who have no real desire to "live" in the world found the earler games too easy, or too unlike what they are used to (FPS games, mostly).
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I had not thought about this aspect before. But I 100% agree with you.
If you think about it, in UO we had normal weapons, crafted weapons, GM crafted weapons, & magic weapons. There were no stats on these weapons as there are today. We didn't know that a certain GM crafted katana would do 8.3 dps or a katana of vanquishing did 23.5 dps. We just knew that one did more damage then the other. Also there was no AC on armor, we just used common sense that plate armor would protect better than leather armor. It was like that in every aspect of the game. It was more of a "real" way to do everything in the game.
In real life you don't purchase a gun based on dps.
If a game came out exactly like UO today (but prettier) it would be a niche game. Most MMO players these day expect things to be in the games that they play (which is funny because the same people that bitch about no innovation in games are the same people that would be complaining that this feature or that feature was not in the game). Such as knowledge of weapon damage, armor ratings, monster levels, etc.
It's this type of mentality that I was talking about when I mentioned games getting easier. Not power gamers or casual gamers. I'm purely speaking that the games are easier to "master" in every aspect.
Sometimes it's fun to not know exactly what's around the next corner. The resources that the average gamer (in any genre) has these days is simply astounding & discouraging for game developers to make any secrets or hidden things in their game, because everyone is going to know about them within 24 hours of the first person finding out about it.
Lets take quests for an example. Quests in todays games are handed to us on a silver platter. We know location, what to kill, how to kill it, every aspect of the particular quest that we have been sent on. If the game doesn't give us the info, one of the 20+ quest databases for the game that are online will.
It's kind of like your friend telling you exactly what happens in a movie before you see it. Is the movie really that enjoyable after you know all the plot twists?
This aspect is never going to change & will just continue to get worse as technology progresses. Maybe that's where the root of the problem lies. In the accessibility of information in today's day and age.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
i played for years before even being aware that all my answers were a click away, i might try and find a list of /commands, or try and find a skill tree to decide on class, but that was about it - ignorance was bliss
also i recommend playing games with established communities, there you dont get powergamers that seem to turn everything into a grind race which just seems to suck all the fun out of the game and community - that seems to happen with new games/servers,
"""""It's like voting. You can convince yourself that your vote doesn't count, but you'd be a fool.""""
EDIT---following paragraph was humor not a political debate ----
Bad example, because when all there is to vote for are fools, picking the best fool is ludicrous. Anybody who would aspire to power should'nt have it after all
TO THE SUBJECT--->
As for indie games being the only place you will EVER find somthing new? thats weak, It will happen its just going to take time, I predict that as these threads are now very commonplace we will in the next few years see a few huge companies get it right.
90% of everything in every genre is pretty much crap and only 1% great. Truth is warcraft is sadly the best of its model ( far from my ideal)
What will happen is another game will come out with something truly new and everyone will clone that. thats the one trend that is true in everything from sports to movies.
The reason I am bored of MMo's though is because soloers are punished, and guilds are rewaded with powers instead of perks, and PvE in MMo's is a joke. 95% of people playing games where you can solo are, yet developers are still blind to this. If I could solo and be every bit as powerful as a player in a guild I'd still be playing WoW for the PvP aspect....until PvE is compelling in MMO's id rather just pay for battleground access.
Because they are too easy and treat gamers as if they are stupid with dummied down mechanics and gameplay.
Too many developers and gamers are focused on the "so called" endgame instead of the journey and making the games challenging, fun, and interesting from the start.
No man, you and me FTW.
I'm with you, and I play like you do. I don't think that the games have become more "casual." In fact, quite the opposite. SWG (back when it was good) was one of the most casual friendly games I knew. We didn't have 40 man raids or DKP like in WoW. Instead, we had the 20 man "PUG-o-Thons" on Endor and Dathomir! People would grab two missions, join the PUG, and maybe do 2 or three missions and leave, but the group continued. In those days, we didn't care if we invited the dancer or the chef, and we didn't use TS or Vent. It was just the thing to do, and everyone had a good time.
In my opinion, the whole "casual" versus "hardcore" distinction is a non-starter, because you can be a hardcore user on a so-called casual game (like WoW), or a casual player on a so-called hardcore game (like EVE).
What made the "sandbox" games "hardcore" is that the developers made it so easy to stay logged on. SWG made trivial things like standing at the starport or in the cantina doing nothing but peep watching fun. In fact, I used to say that in SWG, I could spend a whole afternoon just sitting in the starport, and never feel like I was wasting my time. Now that is a game that encourages hardcore hours, my friend!
I can't say the same about the new SWG. In the new SWG, there is no reason to stay logged on unless you are doing something, and the actual doing of things is so visually taxing, you are mentally drained after you do it, and you want to log off. Same thing with CoH, or WoW. It's really a test of will to keep grinding, because the combat is much more taxing to execute.
I honestly believe that the games are designed these days to encourage logging off, rather than staying logged on. The reason for this is partly to discourage grinding, overloaded servers, and more subscription months. I also think it's because powergamers who have no real desire to "live" in the world found the earler games too easy, or too unlike what they are used to (FPS games, mostly).
Very good points ....
Today it seems more about achieving, then enjoying ... I find myself logging into several newer mmorp's just to "enhance" my character or simply wondering "what to do now??"... while in SWG i spend 6 days in a row walking accross Endor to find and tame that one rare baby, setting up my tent everywhere, enjoying scenery and music ... and i had a blast !!
Making this post has made me want to play FFXI again. I loved that game because of the forced grouping aspect. Sure, call me a masochist not being able to play on my own time, but the game forcing me to be with people really helped the community shine. I highly doubt I will start a subscription again, but I just wish I could have a community like I found in FFXI.
Still, forced grouping is annoying, although I still find it fun. I would like to be able to solo effectively if no one is around to group with, but if solo'ing is TOO easy, then the community starts to split themselves from the community as a whole, therefore falling into another WoW, possibly the worst community I have ever seen in a MMORPG.
People should be restricted to a certain number of character per post for topics like this, you need a day free just to read it all... so you don't :P
Knowing when to stop typing is knowing how to make a point.
I played WoW until it became clear how futile the grind was. I've tried everything with half decent graphics since i stopped playing WoW and as soon as i get the feeling i'm having to grind my interest shuts down.
The two games i have really really enjoyed playing since i stopped playing WoW are DDO and CoH. They are just fun, non-hardcore, social games...
No man, you and me FTW.
I'm with you, and I play like you do. I don't think that the games have become more "casual." In fact, quite the opposite. SWG (back when it was good) was one of the most casual friendly games I knew. We didn't have 40 man raids or DKP like in WoW. Instead, we had the 20 man "PUG-o-Thons" on Endor and Dathomir! People would grab two missions, join the PUG, and maybe do 2 or three missions and leave, but the group continued. In those days, we didn't care if we invited the dancer or the chef, and we didn't use TS or Vent. It was just the thing to do, and everyone had a good time.
In my opinion, the whole "casual" versus "hardcore" distinction is a non-starter, because you can be a hardcore user on a so-called casual game (like WoW), or a casual player on a so-called hardcore game (like EVE).
What made the "sandbox" games "hardcore" is that the developers made it so easy to stay logged on. SWG made trivial things like standing at the starport or in the cantina doing nothing but peep watching fun. In fact, I used to say that in SWG, I could spend a whole afternoon just sitting in the starport, and never feel like I was wasting my time. Now that is a game that encourages hardcore hours, my friend!
I can't say the same about the new SWG. In the new SWG, there is no reason to stay logged on unless you are doing something, and the actual doing of things is so visually taxing, you are mentally drained after you do it, and you want to log off. Same thing with CoH, or WoW. It's really a test of will to keep grinding, because the combat is much more taxing to execute.
I honestly believe that the games are designed these days to encourage logging off, rather than staying logged on. The reason for this is partly to discourage grinding, overloaded servers, and more subscription months. I also think it's because powergamers who have no real desire to "live" in the world found the earler games too easy, or too unlike what they are used to (FPS games, mostly).
Very good points ....
Today it seems more about achieving, then enjoying ... I find myself logging into several newer mmorp's just to "enhance" my character or simply wondering "what to do now??"... while in SWG i spend 6 days in a row walking accross Endor to find and tame that one rare baby, setting up my tent everywhere, enjoying scenery and music ... and i had a blast !!
Some really well thought out points.I think Dark Age of Camelot was the last of actual casual friendly game play until they added ToA. In Classic DAoC and even the SI expansion you could pug all of the content. If you weren't as coordinated then you just brought more people with you. 100 man public raids were pretty common place. Asheron's Call 1 was like this as well. You would just bring who ever wanted to come to do the content.
Now though we have these professional guilds that treat the games like a job. The biggest problem that has caused this is Raid Caps. World of Warcraft would be the best casual game all the way through if they did away with raid number caps. Can't pug a raid dungeon with 40 well then get 80 people. It also really adds to the Server community feel. Because you end up with the more accomplished guild's running public quests and public raids to help gear up other players. (not all guilds will do it, but quite a lot will. I know in DAoC on the PVE server the number 1 guild on the server for a long time was Legion and they ran public quests as well as private guild only raids).
PVP is a way to build up a community feel, but it doesn't require full loot FFA in order to do it. Heck on Harvestgain in AC1 we had a PVP community feel and you had to flag yourself as PVP when you wanted to PVP. (when you did go red it made you FFA and you could be looted though) Dark age of camelot had the second best community feel of any game I have played. (AC1 being the best)
There are many ways to better provide a community in an MMO. Do away with a central currency. That was what worked the best in AC1. Pyreals were pretty worthless for a long time. So instead people used a barter system. Combining a barter system with a true RoG loot system was awesome. It made hunting exciting because you never knew what the mob was going to drop. It could be an awesome bow or it could be a worthless item like a shield of cooking mastery.
Also with the barter system doing away with Auction Houses and player stores. Make trading have to be interactive. Or at least make it take place in some sort of forum system. So there is more reason to interact. Placing your item on the AH and then forgetting about it until you get your mail (in wow) or until you head back to the Broker and see your sales (like in EQ2) is detrimental to a community feel.
Or do away with "uber raid loot" make raid loot a cosmetic type of upgrade instead of a power type of upgrade and make crafted loot the best loot in the game. Then make sure that the crafters need things from other players in order to make these items. For instance a raid dropped item can be turned into a cool sword, shield, or armor. This promotes better interaction.
And the biggest thing that would make the games lately better is stop the Mudflation. World of Warcraft has gotten ridiculous with the increased power of their items. Asheron's Call really had this the best of any game I have played. I used the same bow at level 60ish that I used at level 120 as well. My bow was just a bow. It wasn't super powerful my skill at using it got more powerful and that was what mattered. MMO games really need to get back to the character and less about the loot. Dark Age of Camelot was like that as well before Trials of Atlantis and artifacts came out. Back when Spellcrafting first was out and playercrafted and overcharged spellcrafted loot was pretty much the best to use.
I remember going on a raid because I wanted to win a sword in DAoC. Not because it was super powerful but because it looked like a light saber.
Personally my Ideal game would be a Realm Vs Realm game like DAoC, With World of Warcraft's smooth animations and user interface, Asheron's Call 1's leveling system (maybe not 275 levels though
) and AC1's random loot system. Combine that all into a well thought out world and you would have my ideal game.
Honestly if Turbine re-released AC1 with an updated graphics engine, without decal, and added a RvR component I would be extremely happy.
War Beta Tester
CPmmo, I agree with your list of things SOME people wish for that are stupid, but I don't agree with your "old-school vs. new-school" analysis at all.
I've been playing since UO, and I don't wish for the return of any of those things. I recognize that games are evolving and have improved in many ways. But just as often, they go in stupid directions because they know people are afraid of any kind of challenge. Well, sorry, but lack of challenge does not make for a good game.
There are plenty of MMO veterans who still enjoy games. I still play. Most old-school MMOers I have known still play one MMOG or another. We are not burned out. I wouldn't even say we're jaded, just more mature and more discriminating in our tastes.
One big problem is that startup studios tend to hire fresh young faces because they are cheap and eager to be exploited. There aren't a lot of mature people out there doing the grunt work of writing and level design -- most of those have been bought up by the big companies who can afford to pay them what they are worth.
Unfortunately, that means Blizzard. WoW isn't a bad game in most respects. Its biggest problem is that it is too big, which means the community is rotten to the core.
because they are all the same crap just in different skins. If they made a mmorpg like BioShock then it would be different.
Very simple reason.
When someone has done the same thing over and over and over again, they get bored with it. It's human nature to want to move forward in things and try new things.
Driving
Work
Walking
Television
Music
MMORPG
These are just a few examples of things I am bored with. Therefor I don't watch television, listen to the music I want to (Not the radio), I stopped playing MMORPGs, I walk all over actually... driving to and from work's a chore (hour+ sometimes), work is work, but it has its days.
So, if you stop from MMORPGs and don't play them 15 hours a day, then they wouldn't be so bad. But as soon as you start to overdo anything, you'll get burned out. Just like I did in Guild Wars. After two years, I'm about done pulling my hair out.
most mainstreams care more about visuals than if the game is any good... And people eat right out of their hand if they made a game to walk around and do nothing at all and it had life-like graphics everyone would flock to it because it was 'new' and looks nice
I really don't think casuals are the cause of MMORPGs not being fun anymore. I really think it is the developers not being able to take as many risks as we saw in the beginning ages of the MMORPG because everything costs way too much money, and in the MMORPG market, it's very hard to break people away from what they're playing now to try out something new. Therefore it's a lot of upfront costs with NO guaranteed benefits.
Sure, those of us who have played a lot of MMORPGs over the years will appreciate a new game, but we are by far in the minority and are not enough for a developer to go out of their way to make the newest, innovative game.
You answered your own question.
MMORPGs are fun still... if you're fresh to the genre, everything out there in one form or another is duplicating Everquest for the most part with incremental improvements in game play and significant improvements in graphics. The next couple generations of games will attempt to duplicate warcraft which was a duplicate of everquest... unfortunately for those of us who have been playing for any significant amount of time... we're bored outta our heads. Reskin something we've done 3,000 times and what do you get? Something we've done 3001 times with a new skin on top. Level based/class based systems are far to limiting in the long run... but skill systems offer to much chance to gimp yourself for new players to grasp the intricacies of. It's catch-22.
Shrug. Eventually ALL of the level based games will start dying off slowly and the new ones wont get the subscriber base because people are bored and then the industry will start looking in new directions and try new ideas... but until then expect more eq1/wow/eq2/etc.
Shadus
No man, you and me FTW.
I'm with you, and I play like you do. I don't think that the games have become more "casual." In fact, quite the opposite. SWG (back when it was good) was one of the most casual friendly games I knew. We didn't have 40 man raids or DKP like in WoW. Instead, we had the 20 man "PUG-o-Thons" on Endor and Dathomir! People would grab two missions, join the PUG, and maybe do 2 or three missions and leave, but the group continued. In those days, we didn't care if we invited the dancer or the chef, and we didn't use TS or Vent. It was just the thing to do, and everyone had a good time.
In my opinion, the whole "casual" versus "hardcore" distinction is a non-starter, because you can be a hardcore user on a so-called casual game (like WoW), or a casual player on a so-called hardcore game (like EVE).
What made the "sandbox" games "hardcore" is that the developers made it so easy to stay logged on. SWG made trivial things like standing at the starport or in the cantina doing nothing but peep watching fun. In fact, I used to say that in SWG, I could spend a whole afternoon just sitting in the starport, and never feel like I was wasting my time. Now that is a game that encourages hardcore hours, my friend!
I can't say the same about the new SWG. In the new SWG, there is no reason to stay logged on unless you are doing something, and the actual doing of things is so visually taxing, you are mentally drained after you do it, and you want to log off. Same thing with CoH, or WoW. It's really a test of will to keep grinding, because the combat is much more taxing to execute.
I honestly believe that the games are designed these days to encourage logging off, rather than staying logged on. The reason for this is partly to discourage grinding, overloaded servers, and more subscription months. I also think it's because powergamers who have no real desire to "live" in the world found the earler games too easy, or too unlike what they are used to (FPS games, mostly).
Yes, us FTW.I do stuff like sit at an inn for hours as well, as I posted above. But I honestly do believe that games are getting more and more casual. WoW is an interesting example because it draws people in with it's casualness and then basically says "Congratulations! You maxed out your character, but unless you get the best equipment he's now pretty much useless." and makes you do hour long raids. Games are getting way too "to the point", I like sitting around from time to time. Now there's no reason to do so. Too much, I have to level otherwise me and my friends aren't going to be able to screw around in the same places any more. All my friends love to screw around, but we're all drawn by that carrot on a stick to some degree, me less than most of the others. So while they're doing quests and getting new equipment, I can no longer just screw around. I now have to go out and level, because if my friend is 10 levels ahead of me, he doesn't have as much fun getting into my antics because he can get out to easily, and I don't have fun in his zones because I die to fast. I really miss the games where the draw to just have fun was stronger than the draw to be proficient and top level.
Everything with this new wave of MMOs is just getting so screwed up. I'm looking at a lot of the upcoming MMOs, and the horizon seems pretty bleak. WAR looks like it'll have too much of a draw to do stuff, and get it done for me to get too far into. AoC seems like all the fun is going to be end game, not for me. DF looks good but I doubt the devs will carry out their promises. PotBS would be good if it didn't reset, still wouldn't be for me though.
Back to the Casual vs Hardcore debate. My position rests more in the hands of how games "encourage logging off" now a days. It's set up so that players can go out and achieve for an hour or two and then leave. It's just getting so bloody bleak. I want a game that encourages you to just sit around and wait for something to happen. I want a world in which I can do more than just quest, grind, raid, and pvp. I want a game where you can affect the world, even if just by being dumb. Mostly though I want a game that doesn't make we want to put my head through a wall. They're just games, your meant to have fun not work your ass off so that you can stay profficient.
without any reading but the topic, with a big chaance showing that I am an idiot:
Age and experience.
Well, it's a good start.
No, my young friend.
It is the end.
Well, it's a good start.
No, my young friend.
It is the end.
I've been playing "vidja games" for as long as I can remember. Eleven years later, I still find them fun. It's just that the newer games that are so much more direct have lost all the fun. (see my previous posts for more details). I still play Morrowing, Diablo, Civ2, HoM&M 4, etc..., but I also still play my new games like Civ4, Oblivion and the like. A lot of us have developed "leaned helplessness" which is my guess (It's something I learning in my Phsychology course). We just blame ourselves for games not being fun anymore, we just say "I'm just too used to games, they don't surprise me anymore. Nothing I can do about it", and the rest of us say "Games aren't as good as they used to be" and blame the companies. It's somewhere in between.
Have you tried Eve? Lots of nothing going on there.