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The 10 biggest influences to mmo gaming
mutantmagnet
Member Posts: 274
http://www.gamemusketeers.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=323&Itemid=1
In no particular order.
Dungeons and Dragons - PnP version
Multi-User Dungeons
Islands of Kesmai
Neverwinter Nights (AOL Version)
The National Science Foundation NETwork
Meridian 59
Ultima Online
EverQuest
Final Fantasy XI
If you want an explanation for each choice then click on the above link. You might learn something like I did.
Comments
The list is invalid by its omission of WoW. Like it or not, it is the defacto standard for MMO at this moment.
World of Warcraft has influenced several games over the last two years. Two years. I don't know if you realize it, but the history of MMO development goes back further than two years.
Wow's actual impact on mmo design hasn't really been felt yet as an influencer of future mmos.
What wow offers that is different from its predecessors that could be cited as the being the originator for future imitators is the most involving custimization optoins on UIs, its expansion of the market in Europe and China, rest xp, the exclamation mark to highlight questgivers and its penetration of the Asian market barrring China.
So far noone since wow's release has been inclined to offer modfiable UIs anywhere close to wow's level. Rest xp has been adopted only by LOTRO. Growing the size of a market is a process that can never be imitated in any aspect of business. Penetrating a market is also something that can't be imitated. These two things are simply done if the markets accept your product as a whole.
The one thing that has been widely adopted is the !exclamation mark. A few games previewed so far have been noted to use a similar convention now and a couple of older games have revised themselves by adding this simple mechanic.
When anyone seriosuly talks about wow's impact they talk about its number of subscribers. That has little to do with how games will be developed in the future since trying to copy wow feature for feature is in essence copying every game wow was influenced by, except for two things which I noted already. Wow's subs also has had impact as raising cultural awareness which indirectly affects how games are made but since so many of the mechanics in wow can be found in other games the point's moot.
That's an absurd statement. It's impact is total. It is the point of comparison for nearly every release since. It has entered the common culture as a norm, and has become a cultural icon which transcends just the niche group of gamers, let alone online gamers. It completely redefined the measure of success for any subscription-based game model.
DAOC did this before WoW, as did EQ. This is not a unique element to WoW.
Also EQ2. Since EQ2 was released prior to WoW (by a month if I recall correctly) then WoW wouldn't be the first.
Well, you have chosen to make that its salient point. I don't focus on that rather important but narrowly-scoped fact.
It's not moot. It's entirely relevant.
[quote]Originally posted by ianubisi
[b]
That's an absurd statement. It's impact is total. It is the point of comparison for nearly every release since. It has entered the common culture as a norm, and has become a cultural icon which transcends just the niche group of gamers, let alone online gamers. It completely redefined the measure of success for any subscription-based game model.
[/quote]
I've already made my point why this arguement doesn't work and we clearly don't agree what it means to be an influence to mmo gaming. As for the original article which prompted this thread the list was created because"he took a hard look at the forefathers of the modern day MMOG and decided that the deeds of yore should get their due Musketeer respect. "
Even as young as wow is it deserves respect for the size it achieved. THat in of itself doesn't directly translate into an impact on mmo gaming design.
I knew EQ had custimzation options but from what I understood of it, it is nowhere near as comprehensive as wow. Considering how many people migrated from EQ to wow especially since EQ2 at launch didn't live up to expectations, I never saw counterarguements on wow forums that EQ did anything as good as wow when it came to UI. If EQ came up it usually was for other reasons like raiding. Can't say anything about DOAC.Your timeline is definately wrong here. EQ2 added rest xp in patch a year after wow launched. This same patch included a lot of changes to make EQ2 more like wow.
What I'm trying to get across is that subscribers isn't something that can be emulated by other game developers. One needs to combine a set of design features and use proper marketing to gain subscribers. You can't have subscribers and make a game from it. In this case the egg must clearly come before the chicken if the egg == game design and marketing while the chicken is subscription growth.That's why subscriber numbers is more of an indirect impact on game design and a very weak one at that.
Don't forget Gemstone on GEnie.....
And probably the old Infocom text games as well as far a dungeon design goes.
Oh yes, the Eye of the Beholder, Wizardry, and Might and Magic series as well.
Probably the internet which allowed MMOs to be created. Also fantasy which has been around long before MMOs were created and was used in many single player RPGs.
Its surprising that Lineage/Lineage 2 has not been mentioned. There is probably no MMO around that has inspired so many other MMO projects
That is true. It seems like there are more Lineage 2 clones than any other game around.
Incorrect.
EQ and UO are the defacto standard for MMORPGs during their time, and at present time.
100k accounts still is the standard for a mmorpg to need, in order to re-coup its investment money, and then start turning in a true profit.
Diablo 1 should have been on that list, because it (as far as I know) it was the first "modern", successful, online rpg themed game . Simular to how M59 was the first successful modern mmorpg.
AC should have also been on that list. It was the first with seamless world technology - light years ahead of EQ, even though it came out roughly the same time as EQ.
Lineage 1 should have also been on that list. It came out during the time period of UO, and EQ. It showed there were OTHER SUCCESSFUL markets other than the western market. Which to this day remain untapped by western made mmorpgs. UO, and WoW have made some efforts to tap the Asian market aggressivly.
AO should have also been on that list. Litterally everything in AO revolutionized every mmorpg that came out after it, copying almost every feature in AO. Even mmorpgs released before AO, later copied things from AO. WoW licks the bottom of the shoes that AO wears. WoW cloned almost every single feature in AO, the only change setting it in a medival themed setting. WoW who? WoW what? Diablo 1/2 + AO = WoW
AO to this day still has many incredible features yet to be copied by other mmorpgs.
FF11 should be NO where on that list but oh well.
PS the list was good but it forgot PCs. - hehe
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
95% of WoWs subs come from Battlenet. Battlenet's success is the result of Diablo 1, Diablo 2, etc... And THEIR success is the result of copying earlier games. One of the most notable, is a very little known rpg themed, dungeon style, game called ROGUE. Created by some college students around the late 1970's- early 1980's.
I think Asheron's Call should be included in that list. It had a seamless world, contrasted with EQ. That became a popular concept, even if not often duplicated. It also was the first MMORPG to really cater to solo play, which I think made other companies more aware of the demand for the ability to solo in MMORPGs. At that time, EQ was practically group only after about level 15.
Just because a game is new or innovatibe doesn't mean it influences anything. Asherons Call was good and it was innovative for its time, but it really didn't influence other games or projects, nor did it do anything groundbreaking for the genre.
daggerfall would be nice to see...again
one day.
future elder scrolls mmorpg?
nah
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Just because a game is new or innovatibe doesn't mean it influences anything. Asherons Call was good and it was innovative for its time, but it really didn't influence other games or projects, nor did it do anything groundbreaking for the genre.
I disagree. The ability to solo play was a new feature, when compared to the WoW of that time, EQ. The 2nd generation MMORPGs, AO, DAOC learned from AC that they had better make solo content with their game or they'd miss out on an influential and sizable market segment. Granted, solo play is not innovative, but it did influence other games by adding a content element that wasn't present in EQ, the reigning king of MMORPGs at the time.I will say AC's 3rd person camera views were innovative and superior to what the market offered. So much so, that AO changed their camera views after release after players clamored for a camera view like AC.
AC had a lot to offer that wasn't recognized then and, obviously, now. I stand by my opinion.
Just because a game is new or innovatibe doesn't mean it influences anything. Asherons Call was good and it was innovative for its time, but it really didn't influence other games or projects, nor did it do anything groundbreaking for the genre.
I disagree. The ability to solo play was a new feature, when compared to the WoW of that time, EQ. The 2nd generation MMORPGs, AO, DAOC learned from AC that they had better make solo content with their game or they'd miss out on an influential and sizable market segment. Granted, solo play is not innovative, but it did influence other games by adding a content element that wasn't present in EQ, the reigning king of MMORPGs at the time.I will say AC's 3rd person camera views were innovative and superior to what the market offered. So much so, that AO changed their camera views after release after players clamored for a camera view like AC.
AC had a lot to offer that wasn't recognized then and, obviously, now. I stand by my opinion.
I concur, sir. AC was also more skill based then it was level base, which was the first game to do that as far as I can remember.
I think UO was skill based from what I remember. I could be wrong on that, though.
That's an absurd statement. It's impact is total. It is the point of comparison for nearly every release since. It has entered the common culture as a norm, and has become a cultural icon which transcends just the niche group of gamers, let alone online gamers. It completely redefined the measure of success for any subscription-based game model.
DAOC did this before WoW, as did EQ. This is not a unique element to WoW.
Also EQ2. Since EQ2 was released prior to WoW (by a month if I recall correctly) then WoW wouldn't be the first.
Well, you have chosen to make that its salient point. I don't focus on that rather important but narrowly-scoped fact.
It's not moot. It's entirely relevant.
1. yeah comparison.. measure.. i dont think you even read what he wrote.. hes talking about game design, not popularity and sucess
2., and 3. you are supporting his point. i dont know if you intended to or not, but you are pointing out htat those 2 things arent something that WoW has contributed.
4. What do you focus on, when talking about WoW's impact? Subs is the only thing that really stands out.
5. You really arent listening to him. he's saying that since someone else did things first, you cant't credit WoW for it.
I think the OP's post was very well written, and intelligent, and your post comes off as driven by blind loyalty. Your arguements lack substance, and are little more than " you are wrong" statements. I hate using the term "fanboi", but if the shoe fits...
I have no great love for WoW. I've played it for a grand total of about 5 weeks since it has been released, and I found it highly derivative and shallow. It is, in my opinion, an exceptionally good game for beginners to the MMO genre, but it really pales when compared to the deeper games it has emulated.
My arguments rest wholly on the merit that WoW has made a massive impact on society as a whole. That is the brunt, fulcrum, and substance of my argument. You can't dismiss that as lacking substance, but feel free to abuse the opinion all you like.
My original rebuttal was simply that the list of top-10 influencing MMO games simply must include WoW...for the reasons I clearly stated.
Then? Yes. Now? Absolutely not. The ratio of players who have never experienced UO or EQ but who have played WoW is grossly out of balance. Most people have the opinion that WoW invented raids...which it most certainly did not.
I completely agree.
Clear bias by the article author. An oversight of Lineage is a total blind spot. Equally disabusing of the authenticity of the list.
AO is very important, but I don't think it rates this high. AO first implemented instances. The first sci-fi graphical MMOG. It had a horrific release...absolutely abysmal...and yet recovered to release a highly-acclaimed and successful expansion (Shadowlands). It was the first major MMOG to employ a free-by-advertising model and still maintains an impressive presence in the field of active players. It was the first game to try to put hundreds of thousands of players in a single world instance...though it failed at this attempt. But it just isn't unique, innovative, or pervasive enough an inspiration to rank amongst the leaders in design.
I agree with this list title L1/2 should have been on there. Now had you said biggest influence to GOOD mmos , L1 or l2 need not apply for most of the games that have Spawned from it have been god awful Asian grind fests. (IE I am not addressing how good l1/2 was but the mmos that were influenced by them , which have all sucked .. ps l1/2 not super hot also)
While AO used instances ... they are acctuly alternet world zones and not private instances (at least at release they were not). Which we do see often in asian mmos , but not too much in western ones. Id area AO did have a lot of good ideas.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I have no great love for WoW. I've played it for a grand total of about 5 weeks since it has been released, and I found it highly derivative and shallow. It is, in my opinion, an exceptionally good game for beginners to the MMO genre, but it really pales when compared to the deeper games it has emulated.
My arguments rest wholly on the merit that WoW has made a massive impact on society as a whole. That is the brunt, fulcrum, and substance of my argument. You can't dismiss that as lacking substance, but feel free to abuse the opinion all you like.
My original rebuttal was simply that the list of top-10 influencing MMO games simply must include WoW...for the reasons I clearly stated.
I'll give you that in influences design in the fact that other devs want to emulate it, to some extent, but you have to admit that that is 100% due to the massive subs. but what the post is about ( i assume) is the actual game content that is original. the majority of what you find in WoW is something found in earlier games, and they are the ones that get the credit for the design. Sure, people are influenced by it in WoW, and they should get credit for that, but not for the design.
And about WoW: If the list really was "The 10 biggest influences to mmo gaming", as the topic says, WoW would have to be on the list because it popularized MMO gaming and it's influence today is huge.
But if you follow the link OP provided on the first post and read the article, it was list of "the influences and technical achievements I considered to be the most pertinent in guiding the history of MMORPG development". And even tough WoW set a standard for how MMOs should be made polished and fun, besides that its influence isn't as big as Ultima Online's or Everquest's influence is/was, since it cannot be given credit for features it has because of other games influence on it.
Well I think you guys are missing two very big influences on MMO gaming, Vanguard and the NGE. They may not be positive but I believe Vanguard has influenced developers to a large degree, the influence is mind numbing terror and fear of having a bad release. Whereas releasing before an MMO was ready and having the player pay to beta was the standard of the industry, it seems that attitudes may have changed. As for the NGE it has taught developers not to bite the hand that feeds, other companies did it but they offered a classic server soon after realizing their mistake however SOE did not.
These are both rather recent influences and as to wether they have truly influenced the industry or to what degree is yet to be seen. Though in my opinion they have, or at the very least they've had a large impact on the MMO gamers.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis