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Why MMORPGs have grind and how to get rid of it
Grind is the hallmark of MMORPGs, above all t has become THE characteristic of today's MMORPGs, in fact its perhaps not far from truth when one says that an MMORPG is a grind. However, 'grind' is a necessary aspect of any MMORPG, its the very core, no grind no MMORPG.
There are two reasons why i say this.
One, MMORPG unlike single player RPGs, dont have an 'ending'. In essence a it's a self contained world that is playing on an infinite loop. The best manifestation of this is endgame Raid, which is really just a grind to substitute a lack of a an endgame that is the inevitability of linear MMORPGs.
Two, MMORPGS are a product of capitalism, in capitalism time is the currency. The more 'time' a player grinds, the more he consumes and the more profit the company makes. Its eocnomically necessary for game companies to design games that makes players 'grind'.
If then grind is the very core of MMORPGs, how can we get rid of it. The answer is we cant, but we can alter the form of the grind. We can make 'grind' interesting, fun, engaging. Yet isn't that a paradox, doesnt 'grind' imply monotony and pointless repetition, Yes, but that dosnt mean that we cant make repetitions non-monotonous. FPS games are infinite repeats of the same loop, but one thing it does is that each loop is unpredicatable. MMORPG can have an over arching system that 'grinds', but it can also have individual quests that take on a the unpredictablity of FPS games. At the basic level random dungeons, random maps, random instances can alleviate the unnecessary monotony of today's grinds. Pushing this idea further, if each quest of an MMORPG was played out like a round of counter-strike than certainly the monotony would not be there. Warhammer and PotBS are both pushing this idea to the extreme. Both games could be viewed as extensions of a round of FPS game, each faction fights for domination and when one faction wins, the war starts over. An repetitious, yes, but linear, no.
On a fundamental level, one should get rid of any notion of end game. If the MMORPG is linear, then end game is the inevitable result, which ironically can never occur, then everything becomes stagnant and fixed at that very point - when a player reaches maximum level. In a linear MMORPG, everything is about reaching the maximum level and getting the best gear, and in turn everything prior to that is about 'the grind' to get there. If a game does not have an end game, then there's no need for a level/gera based system and therefore, no 'grind' for levels and gear. Sandbox games like Entropia Universe, 2nd Life, A tale in the Desert, Eve (to a certain extent) rids of grind by making their 'games' open ended. The game thrives on multiple goals, with each player playing for their own goals. The game world provides merely the context, it dosnt provide the narrative.
Another way to get rid of the feeling of grind is to subsitute the monotonous feeling pervading the current crop of MMORPGs with something else. Eve substituted the monotonous grind with a time-based skill system, a tale of desert subsituted the monotony of grind with a tiered system of crafting and construction, Shadowbane subsituted the monotony of grind by allowing even new players to be able to beat seasoned players. You can't eliminate grind but you can certainly alter the form that this grind takes in.
A third way is the mythical 'skilled-based/tweak based' MMORPG. In this system, the monotony of grind is substituted with tests of skill. However its hard to see this system in practice without reverting to a 'room-based','instance-based' game. Games such as Fury, Special Force, Audtion and so forth uses such a system, where a players compete against each other in instances and earn experience that progresses their avatars. If the first day player can 'out-tweak' a seasoned player then it would certainly be a turn off for players who invest their time and energy. One way around is give greater access to players who have spent more time in the game.
Personally i would like to see the current level/gear system changed to a system based on 'achievement'. What i mean is instead of progressing - grinding - through the game by killing monsters over and over again, moving from one zone to another, changing one set of gear for the next set of gear, one should 'progress' by 'achieving ' goals within game. For example, exploring 50% of the map, killing the map boss, kill twenty enemy players, build a landmark and so forth. These reverts MMORPG back to the roots of the classical RPGs where one progresses through the story by 'killing' the map boss, and not by killing 1000 of the same monster. Although an 'achievement' based system does not eliminate grind, it does however alter a player's psychological attitude. Killing 1000 monsters to level is a much more negative approach than progressing by working with other players to construct a large pyramid.
Comments
As long as it is more grouping (or soloing maybe), I don't mind doing more of it.
Put RvR, PvP, Raiding, Tradeskills or whatever lame at the end of the grouping path, and you just lost my interest.
Can the game commit totally and unquestionnably to groupers? If the answer is no, then I won't commit to it. If ANY gameplay crash with grouping, then grouping deserve the upper hand. This is a no brainer. I am done with games that enforce a lame-o-thon on groupers. Solo should be the 2nd most important gameplay, just after grouping. As it appeal to the widest audience, no matter if we play in a MMO or not.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Alot of games are trying to get rid of the grind by becoming quest based which is pretty much what you just said in your article...take lotro for example. Some of us hate quests and love to just grind away....give me old eq over a quest based game anyday I love to grind.
Grinding is good, it builds character. Players who show they have the stamina and endurance to complete the grind in order to achieve a goal deserve to be rewarded. ADD kids should stick to consule FPS games.
im not saying that that the way around grinding is make games quest based.
im saying there are several ways to get rid fo the monotony of grinding
1) Non linear mode, no endgame
2) Quests
3) Make the game world a context not a narrative
4) Substitute the system of level and gear to something like 'real world time', reputation, deeds, achievements etc
5) Allow each player/user to set his own goals
well grind is good thing, it trains discipline endurance patience. But only in the real world. I dont want to go play a game and feel like im living in the real world. People play games to escape reality, not to affirm reality.
Actually they could if for example activities in game like fishing,cooking and so on could be used to win exp then u would only grind for money but then u can also sell what u cook and fish so that makes grinding useless although u would be bored too for waiting fish to grab the hook ... then u would definitely prefer grinding once in a while
Can't pay for membership? Have to play free stupid grind games?
NOT ANYMORE! go to www.bux.to and add Ppast as referrer!
I think about half of mmo community likes grind and the other half (including me) hates it.
There are mmo where there is no grind at all (Shadowbane, Guildwars) or little grind (Rappelz). I mentioned most popular games on purpose to show that grind is not needed and mmo can be very successful without this aspect.
Doesnt matter if u like grind or not, you will always find a suitable mmo game and thats wonderful. Long live free market.
Playing: Rohan
Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
I dislike the term grind. It doesn't convey an accurate depitction of what people are actually criticizing, and this is made more difficult because everyone seems to have their own idea of what is grinding and what isn't. Perhaps if you'd added more explanation to your argument of how repetition and monotony isn't prevalent in gaming in general (both offline and online), I'd be more willing to accept your suggestion that grind is synonymous with MMORPG. Until then you haven't put forward a particularly convincing argument.
Further on in your post you state that grind implies montony and pointless repetition. If you are having fun playing the game, it is not monotonous, and all games are repetitive in their own ways.
The 'best' manifestation of end-game MMO gameplay is subjective. PvP is one, very, very popular alternative, and despite not being everyone's cup-of-tea, so to speak, PvP is a very viable alternative to PvE raiding. But even to characterize end-game PvE raiding as a grind is misrepresenting the qualities of raiding. (I know a lot of people hate raiding which is why I say this topic is subjective)
It's economically viable to keep players subscribing to their game. This is done by releasing content on a regular basis, or providing content that players can entertain themselves with - typically PvP content. Yes, diluting content with time is a necessity of subscriber based content unfortunately. It's either diluted by having the content take a long time, or diluted by having long gaps of nothing between content releases.
WoW and EVE online have already eliminated it.
Just like your example, Counterstrike is an endless loop - with unpredictabilty each time, MMORPG PvP content provides endless loops, and no fight is ever exactly the same. EVE has a massive gigantic universe with players fighting each other over territory, and WoW has 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, ... 40 vs 40 PvP content on top of World PvP objectives.
Sure, it's not everyone's cup of tea - but we already have Counterstrike style gameplay in our MMOs.
There is a massive appeal to sandbox games. They have their own flaws however, as they rely on players to entertain themselves far more than more focused MMOs such as LOTRO or EQ, which provide a story. It depends on what you want. What you appear to be trying to eliminate games with developer produced quests and storylines, and turn them into PvP games. I just can't see how you can eliminate repetition in a PvE environment - it just isn't logically possible - even with randomized dungeons, there will always be repetition in some elements.
I can't speak for shadowbane, but there are definately monotonous feelings pervading EVE. It's PVE content is SEVERELY repetitive, moreso than most other MMOs. You'll do one agent mission, and do the exact same mission over and over again to 'grind' standings. And this is a necessary part of the game for many corporations. Don't even get me started on mining or gate camps.
Eve hasn't substituted your 'grind', it's just used it in ways to match it's unique gameplay mechanics.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean twitch-based gameplay? I don't see this as a problem in current MMOs and I'll be happy to illustrate why it isn't if you disagree.
Constructing a large pyramid? Never seen a player owned station in EVE? That's much more negative than slaying 1000 monsters is it? So instead you have to deliver 1000 blocks instead, or place a 1000 stone foundations or something. Isn't this just a variation of the War Effort in WoW? Or resupplying a PoS in EVE? This stuff already exists in the best MMOs!
The MMO glass is not half empty, it's very, very full. The stuff you're asking for is already there, or is shortly being added to the existing MMOs, you just can't see it. You're just being put off by the punters who are drowning their sorrows and making everyone else miserable
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Not true. Those of us seeking a sandbox are truly out of luck these days. However, I think that personally, the best way to get rid of a "grind" is to make the grind fun. It's that simple. If a player isn't enjoying progressing their character, why would they? Make it so that it's players enjoying working towards their own goals. Perfect.
I have been thinking a lot about these same issues. And sadly, from talking on forums and reading thoughts on the topic. I don't think MMORPGs will diversify for a long time. The player base (the old school player base) is simply fervantly against change in the genre. I can't really account for it.
I think MMORPGs are opening up to a larger and larger audience, and this audience is beginning to see that while addictive. These games are not very well designed in some cases. Sometimes they are a chore to play, they offer little variation, the content is not fun on its own, or is just highly repetitive, etc, etc.
And instead of taking these games and improving them, or making games that appeal to different demographics. Most players cling to the old models. They claim that innovation is bad, and that grind is good. They help the genre to stagnate, and probably slow down development of game that a player like me and the OP might actually like to play.
I think that one of the reasons people cling to the grind so much is that it is a substitute for skill. Or rather it is a type of skill.
For example: someone could play a fighting game for 12 hours a day, just beating the computer over and over again for a year. They could then go to a tournament and play someone who has only played for a few months, and despite having logged in WAY more hours, get his booty kicked because his opponent who may just be a better player. MMORPGs by contrast reward nothing higher than the commitment of time (assuming it is invested even remotely properly). Skill, or a knack for the game, plays only a small small role in most MMORPGs. And even when it does play a pretty big role, you still have to get up to a competitive lvl and get some pretty good gear for that skill to matter.
Some people love grind because they know if they can tolerate unenjoyable content, they willl be greatly rewarded in the end. And will kick the butts of those that don't want to tolerate the grind.
Even though I don't really like this system, its not really "bad". I mean its the pinnacle of fairness. The time you put into is in nearly direct proportion to what you get out of it. If you work hard, you reap the rewards, and no matter how skilled a newb is, he will have to put in nearly the same amount of effort to be your equal. It is understandably appealing.
However, I think there is plenty of room on the market for games that have tons of grind, and games that have no grind. And all types inbetween.
Nicely written post.
"The Grind" is caused by two things: boring, MMO style gameplay (come on, we all know its true), and too much of a focus on character advancement.
MMO gameplay, at the moment, is stuck some where in between turn-based strategy and real-time fps. For the majority of MMOs, I dont think we want to see either extreme, but they do need a better mix. If the gamplay isnt going to be twitchy, then it needs to be MUCH more strategic. And no, I dont think theyre very strategic right now. You have a set number of skills to learn on any given character and they usually fit into a sequence that you repeat over and over with out much variation. Thats not strategy. In fact, the only time you see any strategy is in group coordiination, and I dont think thats enough. Even group strategy usually falls into an ideal formula that you repeat over and over...
The biggest problem, I think, is that MMOs place way too much emphasis on character advancement. I mean thats almost all there is. Gain xp, gain levels, fight bigger rats, thats it. Thats going to feel like a grind no matter how you slice it. This is where the need for more of a sandbox style game comes in. How about this:
1) Sandbox style game. (large, open world, many tools for player driven content)
2) Skill-based. (No classes, no levels, no artificial barriers between newer and older characters)
3) Flat/horizontal character advancement. (characters advance quickly. some debate here whether you want a "flat" advancement or a "horizontal" advancement. either way, characters are never that far apart, power wise. new characters are brought into the fold quickly)
4) End game focused. Although, end game probably isnt the right term, since it wouldnt take much time to cap a character and since they can participate in everything from the beggining. Anyway, the focus would be on player created/driven content. Player made (and operated) cities, player driven economy and crafting, pvp between opposing guilds and cities, player generated quests...Really, youre putting it in the players hands, you just have to give them a world and lots of tool. Of course, you could still have some linear quests and youd probably want to have some interesting locations and things to do out there.
When players log on, they should be able to just go find something fun to do, rather than clock in and head back to the leveling/crafting/raiding grind just to keep up...
Grind = bad gameplay. End of story.
It it's fun, its not a grind.
Do you know how many times I've done the same thing over and over on Brick Breaker on my phone? Hundreds of times. And it's still fun. Repetitive gameplay is only "grind" if the game is bad.
Wake up people.
MMO's don't have a grind. They have progression. It's the players that turn the progression into a grind.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
You can never get rid of grind. Just look at my picture for my viewpoint.
Grind does not exist. It is a state of mind. Two people doing the same activities will have two different viewpoints. One will be having fun and say it is not a grind, the other is bored out of his skull and say the grind is intolerable. Therefore grind is just your perception of the activity and is not reality.
Therefore since it just perception and everyone has a difference perspective, you can never get rid of grind. All you can do is alter your perception so it is gone for you.
Venge Sunsoar
I think this thread just highlights that people have different wants in an MMO. Maybe you think the grind should be gone, but I do not. I very much like working to get to an endgame, and working even harder once your there. If a game doesn't have it I won't play it. I personally don't use the word grind, its subjective and has been discussed plenty of times regarding that. Anyway thats what I like, you, and millions of other maybe want something else. Thats fine, but don't expect the entire genre to bow to you, because there are millions on the other side that like it as it is.
Exactly. Older MMOs have a slower rate of progression than newer ones, but its only a grind if you play too much or you're just not having any fun. Questing is a way to make the repetitive nature of the genre interesting, because every MMO gets repetitive eventually.
To say Eve doesn't have a grind is laughable. Its one of the most repetitve, monotonous MMOs ever created. Theres a big reason people don't play it. The only thing not repetitve about it is the chating you do with other players, which I can do with Windows Messnger;)
It is actually the biggest problem in MMO's today. I personally hate grinding...all it is is mindless repetitive killing which has no real meaning to it other than that extra bubble on your experience bar. Leveling should be meaningful or heck, I would even be fine with completely getting rid of levels and having a fully skill-based game but that likely won't happen for a while.
At the least there should be more meaningful and fun quests to gain experience from, not simple "grind quests" where it is just grinding disguised in a quest.
Saying that "grinding is a state of mind" might be true, but it doesnt change the fact that repetitive mob killing just for the sake of leveling is a pretty weak excuse for content. I really dont understand how it can be fun. Its not dynamic, its not challenging, and it doesnt really serve a purpose, other than gaining xp, so you can "progress" in level and move onto the next mob, which is probably just a bigger version of the one youve been killing.
So far, the simplest way I've found to avoid the grind of MMORPGs is to stop playing playing them. Been playing Elder Scrolls: Oblivion lately and it is a real breath of fresh air to be playing an offline RPG again.
First and formost the grind in todays MMO's is nothing more than companys attempting to 'gate' players from reaching the 'end content' to soon (i.e. the longer it takes you, the more money you give to the company)!!
Thats it folks, plain and simple.
You want to get rid of the grind, just put up gates, and add true gaming content. What do I mean by that. Advancement requirements would be realatively low but have an added component of 'real time'. Say you could only advance 1 level a week. It would then take you 60 weeks minnum to reach level 60. NO jerk off no-lifers getting there in 48 hours!! Grind over.
But, the company had better add gaming content to keep you 'having fun' during the week prior to you being able to advance. Thats the trick. Unfortunately its easier for companys to just make you grind to keep you busy, because actuall fun content takes creative and imaginative people, which seem to be lacking by most of todays major players in the MMO field.
So what kind of content would be fun? I personally would love RvR or battlefield type scenarios that require true teamwork (hence the need for 'massive multiplayers'). But those have been tried before right? Yes they have but there is no true tactics required, just pure zerging. You die, you respawn and jump right back in. BUT what if we added 'gates' to this as well? You die, you cannot respawn for 3 'real time' hours, and you have only one toon per server? Now battle tactics mean something, because when toons are killed your side looses a true resource! Think about it. This would have been fantastic in pre-nge SWG!!
Just my $.02
VolatileMan
Unfortunately because grind is a state of mind this means that developers may need to start focusing more on their target audience. You cannot eliminate the grind for everyone, but it may be possible to eliminate the grind for a specific group of people. Of course whether they can get funding for that, or whether their is enough people to support that game play is arguable.
But they should stop talking about grind and start focusing on target audiences. Maybe have different types of games within the same game to attract different types of people. One group doesn't like the grind in one part of the game, don't do it, do the ones you like.
Venge Sunsoar
non-linear mode, no endgame. This is what I hear from you. "The grind, A-Z is a problem, I submit making a change to Z. Leaving out the change for A-Y".
Also, you suggestions are a bit vague/black box/magic thinking to me. Remove grinding and insert "something" to fix. #3, I am sure has deep meaning to you. Most of us can't read your mind and I have zero idea of what your vision includes in this. I could make something up, but that doesn't mean it matches what you have going on in your head.
How is number four not another type of grind? Is it a different type of grind and therefore a "better" grind? Or is it your type of "realism" you are going for?
Setting goals are done in game can all within a frame work of what the develpoers allow you to do. So imo you want more of what already is allowed in most games.
the first post is great. very insightful. everything after, blah, blah, blah.
______________________________
Let me clarify a few things
I see the term 'grind' as a monotonous repetition of a single activity that has become the most prevalent method of character progression in today's MMOs. Strictly speaking im talking about the Korean MMO model where in order to advance a player must 'kill xxx amount of mobs' and then repeat of a different set of mobs for the next set of levels and gears. In broad sense, it implies any form of a looped activity -whether quests, hunting, crafting etc - that is used for character progression.
My argument is that you cant eliminate this form of 'loop' because unlike single player games, MMORPGs dont have and cant have an endgame, and secondly MMORPGs needs to be an infinite loop to maximize profits. However what game companies can do is make this infinite loop, the grind so called, more engaging and more varied. Instead of one single formula to progress (kill xxx monsters then repeat), a game could make a series of mini-loops in a similar vein to rounds of CounterStrike.
A second method is to substitute player progression from a singular mode of advancement (kill xxx monsters) to something else, like Eve's real time based skill training or allow players to progress solely on quests. Yes you're 'grinding' quests, but at least its not one single repetitive activity.
The third option is to make the game world a context not a narrative. What i mean by that is make MMOs sandbox, with out an 'ending'. Most MMOs today are narrative driven, in other words they have a definitive ending (ironically not possible in MMORPGs), and that ending is level cap, maximum gear. But if you scrap endgame and thus make 'levels' meaningless, then in a sense you also get rid of the 'grind' to reach that end point. Getting rid of endgame doesnt mean getting rid of progression, players still progress, but each player will have a different aim and goal.
This argument may be unclear, what i mean is single endpoint = grind, multiple endpoint = no grind. If a MMORPG has one single end point every player is striving for (maximum gear maximum level), then inevitably the progress to get there would be uniform no matter how diverse the method is. If your destination is the same, no matter how different you travel, what you're doing is still 'getting to that destination'. Some ways may be more fun than others, but it doenst eliminate the fundamental problem. If you allow an MMORPGs to provide the context to allow give each player to strive for individual goals, then you get rid of a singular mode of character advancement. To give a concrete example, MMORPGs should be something like this "This is the Wild West, you're a young pioneer now go conquer the Frontier", or "This is Greece 300BC, Athens is threatened by its neighbouring States,you're a young soldier, go and make your makr on history". The narrative is not written by the system, but is written by the player.
Lastly 'grinding' is a state of mind, but it is also something that manifests itself outside of the mind, The argument easily turns into a 'chicken and egg' argument. Does your state of mind make you feel that you're grinding, or does the activity induce a state of mind that makes it grinding.