A question for Bush supporters...

n2sooners · June 2004

Our military budget is bloated

All government budgets are bloated to some degree or another. The military budget had been squeezed for over a decade when Bush came into office. The military was depleted and the budget just didn't have much room for bloat left. Even now, there are those who claim we don't have enough troops in Iraq. There are democrats who have put forward bills to reinstate the draft in order to beef up our depleted military. The fact is, if our military was where it needed to be, no one would even think of reinstating the draft. Under Clinton, our military personal had net losses in pay, Bush has reversed that. You claim to care for the troops, but with people like you in charge they are neglected.

17% of america now believes Bush is the Antichrist

Ya, whatever.

we've lost over 500 soldiers in a futile and unjust war in Iraq.

The war in Iraq was not unjust, and with power being turned over already, it definately isn't futile. And with people like you, we never would have continued the war against Hitler after D-day.

our international standing is officially in the toilet, and we have alienated some of our closest allies - namely the Nato pact countries.

Oh my, France doesn't like us. To hell with France. They aren't our ally. They are setting themselves up to be the alternate super power to the US. Chirac wants to turn the EU into the next USSR. Too bad we have as many or more countries on our side.

We've also killed 1000's of innocent civilians in our self-righeous hubris.

Versus the thousand who were dying every year under Saddam? Or how about the thousands who died in one day on 9/11? This war was one of the most successful wars in history with a very low casualty rate on our side, and an extremely low civilian casualty rate.

Our debt is out of control. We have spent 100's of billions of dollars to occupy and oppress the nations of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Our debt is not out of control, and oppression is what those countries had before we arrived. What they have now is called freedom.

We detain literally 100's of people in Guantanamo bay and other locales, and apparently are going to hold them indefinatly without trial, or access to counsel, two of the things our nation prides itself on.

Waaaa, we catch terrorists and don't set the free right away. Cry me a f'n river.

We have instituted the Patriot Act, giving the government unprecedented Big Brother power over us.

After having our first and second ammendment rights trampled by such laws as the Brady bill or Campaign finance reform all you can complain about is the patriot act? If you look back at other times of war, the Patriot act is a whimp as far as any rights restrictions. The ugly gun ban (brady law) and incumbent protection act (campaign finance reform) are much worse than the Patriot act could ever dream of being.

The Bush administration has authorized the use of torture on iraqis suspected of having information we want. Torture is expressly forbidden by the Geneva Convention, of which we are a signatory. A memo was leaked from the gov, saying that the president can violate any international treaty, including the Geneva Convention.

That is one big load of BS. Put up or shut up on that one.

Oh, and the best one, the Bush administration has lied since 2001 about the nature of Iraq. We claimed, in front of our own people and the international community that Iraq had WMD's. They did not.

Iraq did have WMDs. There is no argument there. What they did with them is the dispute. One thing we know they didn't do is disclose what they did with them in accordance with resolution 1441 and the dozen or so resolutions that came before it. Only a true idiot would argue that Iraq didn't have WMD and WMD programs.

Bush and Cheney claimed that Iraq was linked to 9/11 and Al Quaida. They were not.

Only in your mind. If you have a quote of Cheney or Bush stating that Iraq was directly linked with 9/11 please post it. Otherwise, quit spreading lies.

Bush then claimed that we had a right to invade Iraq because Saddam was a "bad man." We have, and are currently torturing Iraqis in the same facilities Hussien used.

No, we had the right to invade Iraq for their failure to follow 1441 in violation of the cease fire at the end of the first Gulf War. We had the right because he fired on our planes in the no-fly zone. We had the right because he not only had terrorist ties, he actively trained terrorists.

And if you have any evidence we are currently torturing Iraqis, I would suggest you bring it.

Now, that is the last time I will address a rambling post full of crap like this one.

Bobjones1303 · June 2004

Originally posted by Trajan13

7fold - Thank you.
1. Sorry but no compromise here. Sure some welfare people are on crack, but most are not. Consider the people who need welfare. Not everyone has a high-school/college diploma, and considering that many americans are unemployed, a bum on the street is not likely to get a job.
2.. Terrorists=American Minutemen? Stretch, I'll agree w/you on that one, but consider this - both were fighting against a global superpower (GB,USA), both were overwhelmingly outnumbered, both were fighting for freedom for thier respective peoples + both were espousing pretty radical ideas (Democracy, Imperial-Free Unified Islamic State) .
5. I said the war in iraq was unjust. True they are better off, but my problem comes from invading on false pretenses w/o the U.N, + forcing a U.S. style constitution on them.
Putin - The United States Congress, that has been behind bush from the beginning, says there was NO link. If a pro-bush body says no link, it is very likely true. Little tidbit of info here, Saddam and Osama hate each other. Osama - Unified Islamic State, Hussien - Dictatorial Secular State, ruled by hussein.
Non-Geneva convention army - The point is, we are supposed to be better than they are. We signed the Geneva convention, and should follow it, if we want to hold ANY moral high ground. From the shear point of winning this war, we NEED the Iraqi people and the rest of the world to trust us. If we break a pact we signed in good faith, we will NEVER have that trust.
6. I agree with you there. I'm ultra-liberal and have NO idea what Kerry stands for. He wouldn't denounce the war, but is he in support? I don't know, and that scares me almost as much as bush. I can't in sound mind and good conscience vote for either, so I guess that leaves Nader, LOL.
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to offend you or anyone here. Thanks a bunch for showing me the other side.

OMG look over there! It's United Nations Secretary General Koffi Annan

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-EQ1 character:Grotub, shaman of the Tribunal server

Finwe · July 2004

Originally posted by Trajan13

1. Sorry but no compromise here. Sure some welfare people are on crack, but most are not. Consider the people who need welfare. Not everyone has a high-school/college diploma, and considering that many americans are unemployed, a bum on the street is not likely to get a job.

OMG look over there! It's United Nations Secretary General Koffi Annan

Sorry. But almost anyone can get a job if they want (unless your like some physchopathic child murderer). My brother is a perfect example, he doesnt even have an official highschool diploma, let alone college diploma. Hes recieved education, but a piece of paper now adays seems to what matters. And let me put it this way, hes 19, makes more money then his older sister which is 22, which went to a prestigious college in this state, recieved a bachelors degree in speech & communication.

Its all about getting out there, working yourself to near death, and getting places. Where there is a will, there is a way. Welfare is BS, plain and simple.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

Trajan13 · July 2004

n2sooners -

1. I care for the troops in the best way, by not wanting them to die. The U.S. currently spends 47% of the world's defense spending (newsandobserver), to what end? There is no more Ussr, China doesn't want to fight, and these terrorists live in caves.

2. I said nothing about hitler. He was an evil man who believed in his race's superiority SOOO much that he murdered 10 Million.

3. I believe that France is indeed our ally, and has been since 1941 (or at least the Free French, if you want to be specific.) As to the EU, it would be nice to see another option to turn to, especially if the government passes to one like you. And france has a right to an opinon. After all, we would all be drinking tea and saying God Save the Queen, as a member of the British Commonwealth, if France hadn't put thier neck on the line... a step that formed an alliance that we then broke.

4. I do not need to explain how the Iraq war was unjust.

5. $7,217,145,463,627.82 in national debt.(www.brillig.com/debt_clock/) Your right, not out of control, what was I thinking.

6. Believe me buddy, I do feel for those people. You call them terrorists, but unless they get a fair trial, then how do we know? Why deny them justice? Are you afraid they may be innocent? As to your language, you are a ______ (please fill with appropriate curse)

7. Not the point. Any infringment on our rights is wrong, and I think you agree w/me, if you denounce the others.

8.http://www.discourse.net/archives/2004/06/olcs_aug_1_2002_torture_memo_the_bybee_memo.html

Read it and weep. (p.s. copy and paste into address box.)

9. Find 'em then.

10. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5215019/

please consider it posted.

In response to your lack of civility, I leave you to wallow in it.

OMG look over there! It's United Nations Secretary General Koffi Annan

Bobjones1303 · July 2004

n2sooners YOU GOT SERVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS ON NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

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-EQ1 character:Grotub, shaman of the Tribunal server

Finwe · July 2004

"I said nothing about hitler. He was an evil man who believed in his race's superiority SOOO much that he murdered 10 Million."

Actually he believed in a super-human race that was of blue-eyed blonde haired giants. Which he was trying to create with all of those freakish concentration camp experiments. He himself was inferior by his own thoughts. He was as well part jewish.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

Bobjones1303 · July 2004

Dude, I don't think that was his point. But good call though.

...

...EQ II RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-EQ1 character:Grotub, shaman of the Tribunal server

n2sooners · July 2004

You claim Bush condoned torturing Iraqi prisoners and then post a link to a memo as proof. But there are some major flaws with your logic.

First, on the very page you linked. "This is not a draft, but its not an action document either. Its legal advice to the Counselor for the President. The action document was Gonzaless memo to Bush." This wasn't a memo from Bush, it was a memo to Bush. That is a huge difference. I could send you a memo condoning murder, that doesn't mean you condone murder.

Second, the memo from Bush himself states, "The United States Armed Forces shall continue to treat detainees humanely." He said that even though they weren't POWs, treatment of the detainees, "should nevertheless be consistent with the principles of Geneva."

Third, the memo released by Cheney in April 2003 (well before the prison scandal) outlined techniques which were authorized by the White House. They included:

# Significantly increasing the fear in a detainee.
# Attacking or insulting the ego of a detainee.
# The "Mutt and Jeff" approach - nice guy and nasty guy.
# Changing the diet of a detainee.
# Changing his sleep pattern.
# Isolation.

And for a nice unconservative source, BBC.

Next, I asked you for proof that Bush or Cheney said Iraq was directly related to 9/11. Instead, you give a link that proves they didn't (which makes things much easier on me). From your own link. "They stopped short of claiming that Iraq was directly involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States"

Galoot · July 2004

"Putin - The United States Congress, that has been behind bush from the beginning, says there was NO link. If a pro-bush body says no link, it is very likely true. Little tidbit of info here, Saddam and Osama hate each other. Osama - Unified Islamic State, Hussien - Dictatorial Secular State, ruled by hussein."

US GRAND JURY INDICTMENT AGAINST USAMA BIN LADEN

United States District Court
Southern District of New York
06 November 1998

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1998/11/98110602_nlt.html

~snip~

4. Al Qaeda also forged alliances with the National Islamic Front in the Sudan and with the government of Iran and its associated terrorist group Hezballah for the purpose of working together against their perceived common enemies in the West, particularly the United States. In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al
Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.

Galoot · July 2004

"His actions and his lies, along with his greed and corruption show that"

LOL you better be very very sure of yourself.....

#9 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

Aleister · July 2004

good for you,

as far as the freedom goes, it is not limited unless you prohibit others'

Shit i'm bad... I self educated myself in ways of controlling feelings, now nothing feels like it's true... gotta be an assasin or sumtin.

Shai-Halud · July 2004

Well a very religious leader typically leads to more problems so i am glad he isn't a god lovin freak. If there was no religion all that trash in the Mid-East wouldn't have happened. And getting the oil from the towel heads is important because they are just gonna keep wasting it for AK47's. When peak oil hits you fairies are gonna want to wish US had more oil.

zide56 · July 2004

Religion is the source of the problems in the Middle East? No, Islam is. Not religion in general. Popular to contrary belief, not all religions are the same. And not all religions are true. And not all religions cause destruction. In fact, Christianity causes healing and restoration (and don't give me the 'Crusades' garbage--that was Roman Catholicism, not Christianity). You cannot equate or even compare Christianity with Islam. That's like comparing apples with machine guns. You just can't do it.

Christianity is not the source of the world's problems. It's the world's reaction to it that causes problems. True Christianity is the only thing that can heal the world's problems. And please save the "bigot", "zealot", and "Nazi" remarks. I've heard them before, and believe me: I don't care.

rathma · July 2004

I have to plead ignorance here, but i'm pretty sure the bible says somewhere "thou shall not wage war on other countries" or something like that hehehe... I don't think Bush is a christian.

Playing: City of Heroes/ Dark Age of Camelot
Upcoming: EverQuest II

Nmbr6 · July 2004

I don't see the crusades as a horrible thing anyway. The crusades pushed back the islamic nations for hundreds of years(till 1453 when constantinople falls to the ottomans). The islamic nations had been pushing into europe for years in Spain and trying to reach northern turkey. You cannot judge the people that went on the crusades from a modern view point, they were men of there time. Either way, "christianity" is just a watered-down form of Roman Catholicism(the first church).

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"Those who sacrifice liberty in the name of security deserve neither"- Ben Franklin

"Unlike me, many of you have accepted the situation of your imprisonment and will die here like rotten cabbages."- Number Six's speech from "Free for All"

TaskyZZ · July 2004

Originally posted by zide56
Religion is the source of the problems in the Middle East? No, Islam is. Not religion in general. Popular to contrary belief, not all religions are the same. And not all religions are true. And not all religions cause destruction. In fact, Christianity causes healing and restoration (and don't give me the 'Crusades' garbage--that was Roman Catholicism, not Christianity). You cannot equate or even compare Christianity with Islam. That's like comparing apples with machine guns. You just can't do it.
Christianity is not the source of the world's problems. It's the world's reaction to it that causes problems. True Christianity is the only thing that can heal the world's problems. And please save the "bigot", "zealot", and "Nazi" remarks. I've heard them before, and believe me: I don't care.

I am sure this is one of those debates that the MODs go "Oh No..." when they see it starting... I am sure they have their fingers poised above the thread lock button right now...

There would be a lot less trouble in the world if there was no religion.

So much war and crime is done in the name of religion that it is horrible. I say stamp all religion out, lets give that a try for a few hundred years...

zide56 · July 2004

Originally posted by rathma
I have to plead ignorance here, but i'm pretty sure the bible says somewhere "thou shall not wage war on other countries" or something like that hehehe... I don't think Bush is a christian.

Yes, that would be an ignorant thing to say, because the Bible never says that. It does say, however, in Romans 13:2-4, "Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. "

It is a nation's responsibility to fight for the things that are good in this world, such as freedom, justice, etc. Imagine what sort of hell this world would be in without war. War arises out of disobedience, and God smothers such things through governments that he established in the first place. We, personally, are called to love our enemies and bless those who curse us (Matt. 5:44), but it is the government's inherent and God-given mandate to uphold peace and justice within the world.

rathma · July 2004

Yeah well i'm not a christian, and would rather read the ingredients on a kraft dinner box then read the bible. I'm just saying, bush is probably disobeying ONE of the commandments somewhere in that 500 page snore-fest.

Playing: City of Heroes/ Dark Age of Camelot
Upcoming: EverQuest II

zide56 · July 2004

Originally posted by TaskyZZ

I am sure this is one of those debates that the MODs go "Oh No..." when they see it starting... I am sure they have their fingers poised above the thread lock button right now...
There would be a lot less trouble in the world if there was no religion.
So much war and crime is done in the name of religion that it is horrible. I say stamp all religion out, lets give that a try for a few hundred years...

First of all, these debates will remain civil as long as those participating in them do not resort to personal insults and attacks in conjunction with ridiculously outlandish accusations that they don't even have substantial evidence to support. However, slander and implausible charges are what these things basically boil down to because many cannot defend their beliefs, because they really have none.

You say that war and crime has been done in the name of religion, and that this is horrible. Would you care to give me some examples of this? Would you care to oblige me with proof of what you're saying by showing me instances in world history where such things have been done in the name of Christianity (this does not include Roman Catholicism)? Thanks.

zide56 · July 2004

Originally posted by rathma
Yeah well i'm not a christian, and would rather read the ingredients on a kraft dinner box then read the bible. I'm just saying, bush is probably disobeying ONE of the commandments somewhere in that 500 page snore-fest.

Actually, the Bible is more around 1500-2000 pages depending on the book dimensions and version you are reading. It can exceed that if it has a commentary attached. Second of all, I do not believe I know of any Law of God that George W. Bush and his administration have broken publicly in either policy or conduct, in his first four years of office. Perhaps Cheney saying the "F" word could constitute as a sin, but Leahy's childish slander was really asking for it.

TaskyZZ · July 2004

What about these crazy people we see in the paper all the time who kill their kids and say God told them to do it. Sure, we know they are crazy (because we know god doesn't exist), but if there was not religion, then they would have no reason to think that god told them to kill someone...

What about these wackos on TV that are pretending to heal people with their hands, blah, blah, blah... Then they ask for money. These popel are basically criminals, they are like con artists fooling people ouyt of their money.

So many horrible things are done in the name of religion. It just sucks. Then you see priests and whatnot doing horrible things and the church protecting them... Things that make you go Hmmm...

I won't even go into the Pedophile problem the Church seems to be struggling with...

zide56 · July 2004

Originally posted by TaskyZZ
What about these crazy people we see in the paper all the time who kill their kids and say God told them to do it. Sure, we know they are crazy (because we know god doesn't exist), but if there was not religion, then they would have no reason to think that god told them to kill someone...

No, if there was no religion, then they would simply find someone else to attribute the "voices" to.

Originally posted by TaskyZZ

What about these wackos on TV that are pretending to heal people with their hands, blah, blah, blah... Then they ask for money. These popel are basically criminals, they are like con artists fooling people ouyt of their money.

That is not true Christianity. They are being greedy, sinful, and are dragging the good name of Christianity through their fundamentalistic smut and sinfulness. (Mind you, asking for money is not sinful; but luring lost sheep into your lost causes and lying to them simply to get their cash is.)

Originally posted by TaskyZZ

So many horrible things are done in the name of religion. It just sucks. Then you see priests and whatnot doing horrible things and the church protecting them... Things that make you go Hmmm...

I asked you to kindly stay out of Roman Catholicism. However, I am sure that there are Protestant ministers who also participate in such garbage. To put it simply, they either are not Christians at all, or they are so deep in sin that they need to pull out of the ministry and get things under control by the power of the Holy Spirit before they do anything else.

Originally posted by TaskyZZ

I won't even go into the Pedophile problem the Church seems to be struggling with...

See above response.

It seems to me that you are taking certain sins and attributing them to God and Christianity, simply because those involved are supposedly "Christians". This is, most likely, not the case. The wrongs that these men commit is not due to any fault of God, and, in reality, goes against His Law.

Finwe · July 2004

Originally posted by TaskyZZ

What about these crazy people we see in the paper all the time who kill their kids and say God told them to do it.

Ya. Somone told them to do it alright. Its called Satan and his Legions of demons.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

zide56 · July 2004

Either that or they're just crazy.

Finwe · July 2004

Originally posted by zide56
Either that or they're just crazy.

Ahh! But what do you think causes insanity!

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

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A question for Bush supporters...

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A question for Bush supporters...

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