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General: MMOWTF: To Twitch or not to Twitch

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  • JadedDragonJadedDragon Member Posts: 21

    For my part, I would actually love to see a twitch system where one did not (read cannot) jump around like crack-addled rhesus monkey in jump boots just to avoid the dreaded headshot. There was a reason I mainly played my FPS games on a closed session with my known friends, we used what we called a stalk and snipe game style on a large map with 4 to 8 us trying to move unseen and get the drop on each other. There were no respawns so medpacks and armor were literal lifesavers. Games were longer and much more tense and, for us anyway, more fun.

  • snowmonkysnowmonky Member Posts: 93

    Twitch based does work, considering the fanbase of WWII Online. Latency issues can be dealt with dumbed down graphics in many cases, however, the peak of twitch based mmos will not arrive until technology advances for a few more years. For those bashing twitch based combat, PvE would actually have less botters (as already mentioned) and PvP would require more reaction speed, strategy, and teamwork (as already mentioned). Macros don't help as much in twitch based combat as to button macros in point-click and wait mmos of today. There are already many methods to block out aimbotters (not really a macro) using known methods, such as Punkbuster and the like. As to backup my point in PvP aspects of a twitch based mmo, strategy would be seen when a team predicts or fools the opposing team's tactics and dominates. The teamwork would be expressed by how well the strategy works out, according to plan and if everybody took a part to obtain the victory. As for reaction speed, that does not need explanation.

    I do enjoy mmos and fpses. An intermingling of both in one game would tantamount to a superior game, IMHO.

    Would you enjoy being killed countless times by a player who invested more time than you? In several mmos, the lower leveled players (newbies) have no chance in defeating the higher leveled veterans (so-called pros), since most of  the attacks result in misses. For the higher leveled veterans, it would be pleasurable to kill newbies, but wouldn't it be much more gratifying to have the skill to kill a stronger opponent? If a player who spent more time grinding can kill me easily with a few button mashes, then that PvP system is flawed, IMO. In numerous mmos, Time = Skill and that bugs me. In closing, I wouldn't expect realistically to see a veteran warrior casually glance at an amateur that continued to pummel the veteran only to result in misses.  

    www.oblinq.com/SnowmonkeysTemple/

  • JorkinJorkin Member Posts: 19

    I think twitch could work in an mmo environment, but it's going to take a radically redesigned game to do it and I'm not sure were technologically there in out game design to make it happen yet.

    For starters if your going to add twitch into a game you've got to merge it with a whole other raft of stuff to make it work, i.e. cover, ammo limitations, stealth, endurance etc. I've many a time been killed by fireballs around corners in WoW and if your going to go for a twitch system, proper 'round' trajectory has got to be coded into the game to make it work.

    I also think you can still link in proper rpg stats to your twitch skills, for instance each character may have a ballistic skill that governs how well your character can aim, so a toon with low BS would have 'gun shake' to try to handle while twitching.  Adding limitations and dififculties into the game like this that have to be overcome, or perhaps you can skill up and reduce your shake over time would lend any twitch mmo a rpg or atleast an advancement aspect.

    Again questing/pve would also have to be radically re-thought as other wise I could see alot of griefing going on when trying to kill x of creature y for a quest, when the guy next to your can click at the speed of light and nabs all the mobs.

    There are games out there in a single player format that are merging fps with advancement i.e Oblivion and Stalker the only problem of either game is when you add in multiple real time players into the mix where a problem arrises. I think it's certainly going to come in the future, but at the moment I just don't think it could be done.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,672

    If you want twitch in a MMO, I suggest you go play a FPS.

    The vast majority do not want it, the developers know that hence are not doing it.

  • SailexSailex Member Posts: 122

    The biggest problem I have with twitch based combat in a mmo setting is it is impossiable to use chat and fight at the same time. I know what your going to say, use TS, but I dont like TS, and if i was going to use TS I would be playing a real FPS in the first place.

    I play mmo's to relax and to socialize, you cant do either in a twitch enviroment.

  • CoanunnCoanunn Member Posts: 1

    First my apologies if someone on pages 3 or 4 actually got around to this but I became nearly brain dead just trying to claw my way through all of page 2's drivel.

    For the gamers that are advocating twitch based combat there is by no means a reason why you can't play "twitch" based in the current WoW combat system as much as if they actually implemented a fully functional you aim and hit or you aim and miss "twitch" system.  Now here is the WHY which on one seems to be pointing out.

    The "advantage" of a twitch system has NOTHING to do with user input and everything to do with the game engine and the damage calculator.  In WoW a hit is worth X damage, which is drawn against the skill of the "avatar" involved, the armor of the target, the weapon used, talents, spells, buffs, etc.  In a "Twitch" game an attack is worth x damage with no calculation at all.  Where the actual difference from the two systems lies is that in WoW the player has a pool of hit points that absorbs damage, ala the old D&D table top systems and every RPG pretty much since the dawn of time.  In a Twitch game each "location" has it's own individual pool of hit points, these locations are designed based on the game, whether it's the hit point value of a wing in a flight sim or the hit point pool of a "head" in your standard FPS.  Thus the well versed "Twitch" gamer aims for "weak" locations that over time become apparent due to the standards of the industy and trial and error.

    Point of fact - In every mechwarrior game since the dawn of the series the average player aims for the legs as they are easy to hit, have a low "hit point pool" and destroying one destroys the target.  In every FPS since mouse aiming was implemented a "Head Shot" has resulted in either a instant kill or a SERIOUS amount of damage (there are a couple that disregard locations but for the most part the standard of the industry is to follow human physiological laws).  In nearly ever flight sim blowing a wing off will down your opponent and while a fuselage hit is standard the truely elite will go for wings and tail for this advantage. 

    In an MMO where you have put vast sums of time into building a character the thought of dying to a level one wielding a stone sling who hits your "weak location" is perhaps the biggest reason why many players will react poorly once a company can implement this system.  That said it worked in Planetside by removing the hit locations, which also reduced latency but made the sniper all but useless.  In the end what Twitch gamers want is not the ability to strafe, bunnyhop, or any of the other things mentioned but instead they want hit location to matter so that aiming for the weakspot can result in an faster or more efficient kill, that goes against the standard of how a character works in an MMO.

     

    Also to the people who keep saying MMORPG instead of MMO, grow a brain.  There are maybe 1 or 2 MMO's that have ever been RPG's and even the non-MMO RPG's for the most part fall very short of the title.  RPG stands for ROLE playing game, not strategy game, not turn based combat game, not slowly build up a character game, but ROLE playing which doesn't happen in nearly any game out there.  ROLE players won't play a a twitch or non-twitch based game based on whether you can role play in it or not, not because of some assumed player skill level.

  • SonofSethSonofSeth Member UncommonPosts: 1,884

    It's time for that insect MMO in Shadowrun universe.

    Make it so twitchers and rollers can fight it out on equal terms.

    image

  • KaneKane Member Posts: 780

    You know, their was a game where you could twitch or point and click. RYL. Badly run and riddled with hacks, but does prove it can be done!

  • ZeallZeall Member Posts: 9

    I'm an avid defender of twitch based combat.

    For one large reason.  Immersion.

    Ive played Face of Mankind, Neocron, and Project Entropia.  3/4 of my favorite mmorpgs (pre cu SWG being the other which wasnt twitch at the time)

    These are the only MMORPGs ive experianced the best roleplaying, the strongest feeling of a connection with your character.   You just can't explain the feeling of having control of your character fighting other characters who are moving with unpredictable movement.  It adds another diminsion of realism and immersion. 

    It also lessens the grind significantly.

     

     

  • fatpandafatpanda Member UncommonPosts: 116
    Originally posted by GeneralCrazy

    Originally posted by Croatoan


    And for the record, Neocron was an MMOFPS with a highly complex system of character development.  It was a premier game in it's day, and now it's barely hanging on.

    Neocron is a hybrid MMORPG/FPS and was the first MMO that made me willing to pay a monthly fee to play used a targeting system with a single hit box like System Shock 2 and Deus Ex which are both hybrid RPG/FPS,  but Neocron's downfall was not the gameplay but the lack advertising, bad payment provider and lack of simple bug fixing, and may had a lot to do with only having one main programmer and at some points up to 2 part time programmers but the now the company that made Neocron is working on a new MMO for their new parent company and it seems to be that they don't want to waste their time fixing the bugs now that they have the support of a larger development company.

    But for a system like this to really would you have to get rid of a lot of the "Spells" that the current system uses and it would not fit well with fantasy type games that are mostly melee and casters, but it would work will with Modern and Sci-Fi  themed games as most combat and weapons in these genre are ranged and based on weapons that can have a range of firing patterns(Single Shot, Semi-Auto, Full Auto) and categories(Crossbow, Pistol, Rifle,  Heavy Combat, Fixed Guns), also they support a wide range of damage types. 

    Holy run on sentences Batman! You're 1st paragraph is ONE sentence with a few commas (thanks for those at least). Here take these periods: .........  .  Use them frequently please. Thank you.

     

    Edit: you're 2nd sentenece is one huge sentence as well? Geeeeezuuuuuuuuuussssssssssss all those words and you have them as just 2 sentences. Yeah spelling I can forgive to a point but come ON.

  • fatpandafatpanda Member UncommonPosts: 116

    Why can’t it be a combo of gear, stackable combat skill and twitch skill and the person with all that is the best?

    A twink will have to twink out gear, as well as get the best skills stackable, as well as be the best at twitch skills. To “twink” out gear you can farm gold and buy it, have higher levels get it for you, etc. To twink out twitch skills you got to PRACTICE. You can’t buy twitch…we not legally anyway lol.

    A good game has one or two elements and does them both well. An AWESOME game has more and more and more element and does them ALL well.

    And finally for me to say this: they can make a game that if you want to play twitch only you can. If you want to play stackable combat style only you can. If you want to play both together equally you can. They can do all that and still make it balanced so that a twitch only versus a stackable only would result in a balanced fight etc.

    Problem is it will take a lot more testing and A LOT more money. If you gave a development team enough time, money, and told them to go buck wild with a game like that, I think it would be a game that appealed to both sides equally and be a smash hit. I guarantee dame tee you there are more than one development houses that want to make a game like that. Some have tried and succeded fairly well (Planetside to name one) but again investors want whats proven to work. Games cost millions of dollars now. Less risks will be taken.

    It would be, could be, SHOULD be done more. But since the issue of having an investor say take the money and time and run with it is as likely as me and you both winning the lotto at the same time, I’m not holding my breath for someone to give the amount of money (or more) that it took to develop WOW to develop a new a game like that.

  • DbknnDbknn Member Posts: 61

    Why make any attempt at all to put fps style twitch gameplay into rpg's?

    there is an entire genre of games devoted to twitch gameplay, and i might say. they do it very well. i love playing games like counter-strike or gears of war.im not a huge fan of fps games but they already have twitch combat down.

    im not looking to pick up my sword level my character for a month gear him up over an even longer period of time just to run around and play the same type of gameplay i can get out of counterstrike and gears of war without having to waste a single second building up a character.

    both of the previous games mentioned are extremely fun and enjoyable to play. i see no reason to ever add this type of combat into any other style game.

  • fatpandafatpanda Member UncommonPosts: 116

    Originally posted by Dbknn


    Why make any attempt at all to put fps style twitch gameplay into rpg's?
    there is an entire genre of games devoted to twitch gameplay, and i might say. they do it very well. i love playing games like counter-strike or gears of war.im not a huge fan of fps games but they already have twitch combat down.
    im not looking to pick up my sword level my character for a month gear him up over an even longer period of time just to run around and play the same type of gameplay i can get out of counterstrike and gears of war without having to waste a single second building up a character.
    both of the previous games mentioned are extremely fun and enjoyable to play. i see no reason to ever add this type of combat into any other style game.

    I like chocolate and I like peanut butter but I LOVE chocolate and peanut butter together. THAT is why. Sometimes things can be better when combined. If done correctly, you could play your character without doing any (or very little) twitch combat. I could my character without having any (or very few) stackable (dice roll) skills. So you got your skills with what I call stackable (dice roll) skills, I got my twitch skills, we meet up and get to fighting and it turns out to be a fair and balanced (not the fair and balanced that Fox news calls itself) fight with the victor being the one that is better at his or her choice of dice rolls or twitch or a combo of both. Again, it comes down to money and time. Balancing a game like that would take FOREVER to get the balance of one, the other or a combo of both just right. Or even just close to being just right.

    It sounds like most of you don't want innovation. Just because you get to be a spaceperson instead of an elf does mean that it’s innovative. Just someone created a new monster type doesn't mean it's innovative. The underlying game mechanics in MMORPGs have been pretty much the same for 10+ years.

     

  • AsigothAsigoth Member Posts: 3


    Originally posted by Croatoan
    And for the record, Neocron was an MMOFPS with a highly complex system of character development. It was a premier game in it's day, and now it's barely hanging on.


    if you knew anything about neocron, you would know that it failed because of the colossal amount of bugs and the stagnant rate at which they'd release new content. twitch gaming is not the reason, so don't try to turn it into a scapegoat for your anti-realtime argument.
  • CleaClea Member Posts: 21

    From what I gather in reading this article is that a twitch combat system would only kill my wrists more , so I think I'll avoid them. 

    Other then that the article seemed more like a "conspiracy theory" on why the devs don't make games with a twitch combat system.

    Dee Dee Dee!

  • TerranahTerranah Member UncommonPosts: 3,575

    Twitch has a place as a niche perhaps, but not mainstream, and the following are some of my thoughts on it.

    First, a very large number of players are in their 30's and above.  Why should we be relegated to second class merely because as a natural part of aging our reflexes slow.   Now the uber leet kids will be even more obnoxious.

    Also, the addictive nature of mmo's coupled with their repetitive nature and necessity to log substantial time ingame to advance and excel means that there are gonna be a lot of people with carpal tunnel syndrome and arthritis.  Don't believe me?

    I used to play fps for 6 to 8 hours a day several days a week.  After several years of this and achieving number one status in my game what was I left with?  A lot of very fond memories and perhaps a little pride at my achievment.  Oh yeah...and now when I play fps for more than 1 hour straight my hands stiffen up and start to hurt.

    There is also the technical aspect of designing servers to handle populations without lag...perhaps a lot of instancing.  Then there is ping.  Etc, etc.

    As I said, as a niche perhaps.  But mainstream, twitch does not belong in mmo mainstream.

  • CzinCzin Member Posts: 2
    Originally posted by Ozmodan


    If you want twitch in a MMO, I suggest you go play a FPS.
    The vast majority do not want it, the developers know that hence are not doing it.

    When a "twitch" gamer, which is a silly title to give someone because they play more then just TBS games, says they want a “twitch-MMO” what they're really asking for is a action game in a persistent world. CRPG elements can be nice, they're not required and could easily be a determinate. They want the things we love about persistent worlds set in a game that isn't dull. Namely social / guild politics, exploration, a sense of community, and player accountability. Right now the closest thing most action gamers have to this is web-based forums (and a few weak MMOFPSs, you all know what I'm talking about).

     

    Another poster mentioned BF2 "unlocks" as an "MMO-type persistent character " implementation in an FPS.  Sorry I'm not quoting directly, new to this forum-software and not totally sure how to navigate it.  My personal opinion of this "feature" aside I'll respond that this is not necessarily what gamers crave. Certainly there are players who want an advantage over players because they've played longer, but the wish for a persistent world runs much deeper then this and corresponds with what I said above.

     

    @OP - “Players have enough complaints without forcing them into Twister-esque combat styles in order to survive.”



    From what I've seen of MMO Forums (and I've seen my share) it will be the same people crying regardless of the reasoning (if they even bother with reason). 

  • FlummoxedFlummoxed Member Posts: 591

     

    Originally posted by Lobotomist


    What happened of lately that developers are trying so hard to force TWITCH systems into RPG's ?
    RPG's are all baout strategy and tactics,  



    That comment demonstrates just how far game dev has degenerated. 

     

    RPGs were never about being a Strategy and Tactics WARGAME, they were about Role Playing.  But we've been brainwashed for so long by "Action RPGs" that we've forgotten what a real RPG is.

  • MrArchyMrArchy Member Posts: 643

    Don't forget, one of the major complaints with the NGE of SWG as the pseudo-twitch combat interface - and looking at the SWG current forum, one of the things most demanded by the NGE fanbois who remained was the return of a non-twitch target auto-lock.  There will always be some who like twitch, there will always be some who do not, but it does seem one of the big lessons from the NGE fiasco is that most MMO players do NOTwant any kind of twitch combat.  As a side note, it is simply amazing to me how many lessons the MMO community should have learned from the SWG NGE fiasco.

    SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
    NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
    Now Playing: World of Warcrack
    Forum Terrorist
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  • CzinCzin Member Posts: 2

     

    Originally posted by MrArchy


    Don't forget, one of the major complaints with the NGE of SWG as the pseudo-twitch combat interface - and looking at the SWG current forum, one of the things most demanded by the NGE fanbois who remained was the return of a non-twitch target auto-lock.  There will always be some who like twitch, there will always be some who do not, but it does seem one of the big lessons from the NGE fiasco is that most MMO players do NOTwant any kind of twitch combat.  As a side note, it is simply amazing to me how many lessons the MMO community should have learned from the SWG NGE fiasco.

    All I learned was "Don't trust Sony".  I fail to see the connection between a company completely alienating their playerbase and throwing away years of character development with that of a developer making a "twitch" (action) game in a persistant world (MMOG).  Sure they made it into a twitch game, but if they had changed it to a starwars-themed DDR game it would been just as much of a fiasco.

     

  • FlamessFlamess Member Posts: 1

    So what would people consider Ultima Online then? 

    In my opinion, it was one of the best concept PvP systems created.  First, dependent on the skill of your character and how well it was developed - but it was not so extreme that a maxed out character would automatically dominate another character that was not maxed out, to an extent - you could survive if you were fighting against an inferior player.  There were no little bars or timers telling you how long your spell was going to cast, or when it was over - no pre-targeting either.  You had to have the times down.  And you had to react if the spell you were casting was disrupted, there was no auto-recast.

    Yes, I understand that the system as it was before is now completely in shambles because of EA's mismanagement of the product, but the roots and concepts of the Ultima combat system are one of the best ever created IMHO.  Reactions played a big part, but you could get away with it if you were a slower (in the head) player, by using a different style/template.  Was lag an issue?  Definitely to some extent, UO was one of the worst games as far as lag goes of any MMO, however, currently, lag is fairly minimal with the exception of very very large battle settings (which don't happen often because no one plays the broken game anymore). 

    What some people don't understand is that "twitch" doesn't have to be an FPS, there was no "aiming" of spells in UO, but there were plenty of reaction time elements, which make WoW seem extremely poor in PvP comparison aspects.  If you've played UO, you know what I'm referring to, and no MMO has ever come close to capturing that feeling of action/intensity in PvP settings.  It wasn't an FPS type of adrenaline experience, but it had an amazing mix of in game character skill/real player skill.

    I think the concept itself that UO had was rather 'hybrid', but it was great - and I think MMOs should be trying to implement that sort of system.  It worked until EA completely mismanaged it.  No game has come close to recapturing this.  Supposedly Darkfall will, as most of their developers have been influenced positively by old UO, but that remains to be seen.

  • jonaylwardjonaylward Member Posts: 87

    Originally posted by fatpanda


     A developer wants to develope a new fresh exciting game and the people with the $$ do not want to take the risk. Guess who wins the argument in that case
    ...The guy who made his millions before becoming the CEO of a Design Studio, and therefore isn't beholden to anything but making the best game possible in a given genre.

    c.f. Rusty Williams at Flying Lab Software (and the game is Pirates of the Burning Sea)

    You can do anything you want when you're spending your own money to do it.

  • nomadiannomadian Member Posts: 3,490

    I would be grateful of twitch mmorpg gaming for the reasoning that sometimes with current mmorpgs you can reach a kind of cap with nothing to refine or improve. I find instances in WoW can get very boring because once you get past learning the instance, and you have a decent group competancy it is like doing the same thing over and over. Now doing the same thing over and over is great in a skill-based game! Just look a fps, doing the same thing over and over and it just never gets boring.

    As to aiming and that being only the territory of the quick reaction players. I don't think the aim is going to be that heavy in mmorpgs but if it was I'd say this that I've played a fps for years now and I have a good aim in that. Not because I have quicker reactions than anyone(I actually have pretty slow reactions) but because you naturally improve over time with skill-based gaming. But again as I say, I don't think twitch-based skill in something like AoC will be that heavy. I'd imagine mobs won't be that active as opposed to heavy-on Pvp kind of active.

    A game that I liked that had a tameish but certain amount of more twitch to it than mmorpgs is Warcraft 3. It has aiming of certain spells which really you just needed to get it in the right direction and that was good enough. You also had to kind of to aim your heals like which area a heal would hit. Another aiming aspect was using some ability like bladestorm and positioning yourself so that you hit your enemies. It was really all basic twitch that I really don't think would detriment mmorpgs in any way from my perspective. I think really the only twitch kind of skill I am kind of wary of is bunny-hopping and leaping all over the place. That takes place in WoW and really irritates me.

  • boomixboomix Member Posts: 59

    First, whoever came up with term Twitch should be *bleep*. In any case real time combat (aka twitch) in MMO won't work until developers can code good net code. Best example of bad implementation is WOW and hunter class. They are only class in that game that comes very close to playing FPS game, yet net code is really bad. I used to have 2 accounts side by side. Each client was reporting different location in the game world. It is really frustrating playing class like WoW hunter and having bad underlying net code mess up your experience. This is PVP of course. In PVE its fine.

    When it comes to real time combat in any MMORPG, only real consideration will always be in PVP. Then again it would be nice to see "KILLER COMBO" flash on your screen. 

  • Sovren1Sovren1 Member Posts: 312

    I agree totally with you.  Ever since venturing into this genre have had my ups and downs. I can say that I for one am not looking for an FPS MMo collab. What I crave is more the action console type in a persistent  world. 

    Prince of Persia online, Dynasty Warriors or even a fighting game online.

    I WANT TO ACTUALLY SEE SOME COOL MOVES IN MMO'S.  More than half of the games out there now have fifty freaking skills that look the same. 

    Something like that will probably never come to be in the near future, but one can dream.

     

    Innovation in this genre will be hard to come by.  The climate is stale.  Needs a revolution like what the Matrix did for movie making with 360 slow mo cam.

    I am not saying that FPS can't work in the MMO world because it already has.  I'm just saying that it probably isn't the cure for the boring grind or the I have to play forever to get anywhere in this game.

     

    Personally I'm not very fond of the current " I'm a lowbie, so I can't hit u as often", I like how GuildWars does it. The only thing to me that resembles that in that game is how often you critical, or different hits =a range of points. Not whether or not my agility is higher so you miss me more.  Skill based games  hold my attention longer.

     

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