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Still the 800 pound gorilla?

13

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  • LisakaLisaka Member Posts: 31

    Originally posted by Digna


    WoW's 8million+ doesn't mean those are active accounts, just sold and even then it's a number released from Blizzard. Folks who are throwing numbers around in this topic from BOTH sides don't have anything to base their numbers on. Blizzard has to maintain forward progression appearances which BIG numbers tend to do, even if things are slow or worse. Once the snowball starts downhill it only picks up speed and trickle numbers would cast that appearance.
    WoW is still the biggest and the baddest out there and will remain so for some time to come but as with all empires of old, time will come when it's old and tired and eventually it will totter and fall. Next year? 09? Have to wait and see. Not much can be gauged in 2-3 month increments of time. 6-12 months is the least measurement to time to factor market shares even if there is the occasional 'short term slide'.
     
    Then you can throw out the fact that as long as a game is fun and you enjoy it. I know some folks who were playing the 2D side scroller The Realm and loved it! So to you  folks who are rabidly fighting for their side of the WOW/WAR argument; just sit back and relax until both games are out and the general populace of players makes their picks. THEN you can all pull out your soapboxes and start trying to convert the heathens among you
     
    Is it really necessary to link this in every topic?

    World of Warcraft's Subscriber Definition

    World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers.

    The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950

    WoW is a nice game and it DOES have 8.5 million subs.

    With that out of the way, to me WoW is not a serious MMORPG, it is an online multiplayer RPG with alot of instances. Therefore I wouldnt call it massive.

    The community isnt that great, cause most people play with their guild ( if you talk about endgame ), and that is with the same 25 to 50 people over and over again.

    While raiding can be alot of fun, it becomes a second job, and it is elitist in nature.
    It excludes people by design.
    What is player 26 going to do ? yes yer right, nothing, cause there is only room for 25 )

    For me WoW was fun from level 1-60 and even from 60-70. I had fun pvp'ing in STV, also some fun in BG's and 5 man instances. That is the casual part of the game.
    But once you reach the endgame nothing is casual about it.

    Someone said in defense of WoW that it was a game, I can tell you it is not, it is a second job. ( once you get into endgame raiding )

    With DAoC for example, we could gather 50 people to kill a big MOB, and if player nr 51 would come online he could join as well np. We could PvP with 8 people, or with 40, but it had meaningfull goals, it was not instanced, we had massive battles, now that is what an MMORPG should be about.

    Currently I play EVE-Online, now that is another example of a true mmorpg, where you can have massive battles, massive trade hubs and have an impact on the game world.

    Another example where the MMORPG actually stands for something is Planetside. There the RPG is underdevelopped, but the massive battles were aweseome and it was FPS style.

    If I would wanna play instanced PvP capture the flag type of games, then you guessed it, I would play Unreal Tournament 2003, and I actually do play that game, cause I like it :p But it is free to play, no need for a sub.

    Greetz

    If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
    http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
    Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950


    Originally posted by miataka

    Originally posted by daelnor

    Miataka, I understand your points, and respect your viewpoint..but why are you spewing this venom from your mouth like a cheeseburger vacating a belemics stomach?
    Some of your points are valid, some are just ridiculous..but you sound like someone just walked into the vatican and told the pope that jesus didn't die on the cross....calm down.
    D.


    I seen many of your posts and I find you to be a very reasonable person, Im glad to see mature replies.

    The main problem I have is people fabricating info to slander something Obviously ALOT of people including myself are enjoying.
    Yes I do get passionate but I state what I feel, Its not a matter of statistic when it comes to some of theses posts are blatent lies and slander of a game that they Hate, simple because its popular, or because they didn't find what they were searching for.
    Like the simple fact Most players today are too young to even realize what games like WOW and EQ2, EQ1 , L2 and fantasy genre in genral are even based on, and then you have people that seen someone somehwere say something, a term they don't fulley understand and then try throwing this term arround.

    Such as Grind, or RPG.
    A real Grind involves NO quests , no NPC, just mobs of a certain level in a area. Like RF online. thats a grind game.
    RPG , now this is where i do get very passionate about. See Im a older player. Im 32 years old. and I was one of those few Players back in high school that Played AD&D, dice and paper game. The godfather of RPG genre.
    People are always talking about PVP this, PVP that... in RPGs there was no PVP, AT ALL. until late late 80's TSR released Birthright and DarkSun settings that had PVP elements. I see people cry about how a game sucks cause the PVP is poor, often heard from ppl refering to WOW. You know what I have found in all the games Ive played, that sets WOW pvp differnet then all other games, two things.
    1) Its balanced, there is no Jedi, uber, I win , super PWNer class. If you gear up and are near same level you have a even fight unless your just a button masher that dont even know how to use your class, and even then, they can accidentally win.
    2) No matter How much a person Wants it to be, RPGs are not FPS games, they have lag, they have set mechanics. The number one complainer of WOW pvp are former FPS gammers, that expect 1 shot kills and massive steady non-stop PVP action from the second they log in to the second they log out.

    Then there are those people that feel there is no penalty, like XP loss, or being able to loot the player you kill. This is a game, it is ment for fun. Those people that feel they should be able to make anyone PVP them and then take there gear need serious therepy , that level of out right aggression, rage, hate and seeking to DO harm to someone else against there will is just plain old sick. they obviously have issues steming from out side real world trauma and shouldn't be mixing reality with a fantasty video game anyway.
    In the end, a video game should be easy, FUN, above all else fun. its a game you where you play a character in a fictious realm of legendary beasts and heroic quests. It should NOT be a 8 hour a day Full time Job, It should NOT be realistic and have life altering dramatic consiquences. It should NOT have griefing tools to harass and take your fustrations out on real people playing the other characters in game.
    Its a video game, Not real life. We have too much pain, suffering and things WE HAVE to do in real life, that we Shouldn't have to experiance that in what is suppose to be our form of entertainment. I dont know about the rest of you, BUT Im not here PAYING a company to MAKE you or anyone else have a life like experiance, Im here to be a elf, cow person, orc, or dwarf, going on heroic quests to save a fictional land of NPC's from monsters, dragons and demons. I'm not here in WOW or any Game to have real life issues, like war and taxes.
    The puropose of forums like this is to state your ideas and opinions, these happen to be mine.


    You have no clue do you? :p

    1st of all, PvP in WoW sucks, not because there is no instant action, but because there are no real goals, just some CTF instances you play with 10 to 15 people ( on average ), I would say that WoW PvP is VERY similar to the FPS you talk about.
    Therefore, I rather play Unreal Tournament 2003 and dont pay a sub. ( wich I actually do from time to time.

    Second, you say WoW is a Game? Yes it is, until you reach the endgame, then it IS a second job, more then ANY sandbox type of MMORPG could possibly be.

    I played SWG pre CU, now THAT was a sandbox type MMORPG that mimics real life, but it was a FUN game and it was NOT a second job.

    I played DAoC, where you could do massive battles and capture keeps and relics, now THAT is how PvP should be in a MMORPG, not the instance crapola of WoW.

    I have had fun in WoW, I admit, like killing people in STV, taking on 3 people at the same time. Or when we had massive battles between Horde and Alliance ( Southshore vs Tarren Mill ). But Blizzard did not encourage these types of encounters, they actually discouraged it by adding Battlegrounds.
    The leveling to 60 was also alot of fun.

    The endgame killed it for me

    greetz

    If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
    http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
    Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online

  • RuinyRuiny Member Posts: 32

    The irony of CyberWiz claiming someone "doesn't have a clue" then talking about how WoW only has a "couple of CTF battlegrounds" is pretty hilarious. It's clear, CyberWiz, that you've not played WoW's PvP for at least a couple of years, and somehow you managed to avoid ever playing in or finding out about Alterac Valley (40v40 BG). I doubt you've ever even seen the inside of a BG apart from maybe WSG a handful of times.

    Was DAoC's PvP better? Yeah, in most ways, but for it to be better you needed 7 other people of the right classes, and you needed to be on a server/cluster with a decent population balance. What you need to get through your skull is that both had pretty severe problems. WoW, 1v1 or even 1v3, skill could out, sometimes. In DAoC, class was all that mattered, so only 8v8+ conflicts had any real meaning or depth. The average 5v5 battle in WoW is still vastly more complex and brain-requiring than most 8v8 battles in DAoC too.

    I say this as someone who RvR'd in DAoC for FIVE years, so don't come and try to claim I don't know what I'm talking about.

    In both WoW and DAoC, the PvP sucks and owns. Which do I have more fun in? Nowdays, WoW, because the PvP doesn't require me to wait for hours to get a group, find the right members for that group, and so on. If WoW had a DAoC-style Frontier, with truly capturable locations which were actually worth something, and better rewarding of PvP (RPs are a much better system than WoW's honor/badges or godawful "rich get richer" Arena system), then we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because we'd be too busy out there having fun.

    As for the endgame, again, it's clear you've not played WoW in years. It's not perfect, but it's no worse than the PvE endgame of any other MMO, and more fun than most. That's the only reason I'm still playing the damn thing. The PvP endgame is inferior to DAoC, but barely, at this stage in both the game's lives.

    So yes, WoW is still the 800lb gorilla of MMORPGs, even in PvP. Will it stay that way next year? Unlikely, as there are so many well-designed games which can take what's good about WoW and improve it, whilst dumping the bad bit (of which there are plenty). WAR is foremost among these, though they're making some questionable decisions at the moment, I think ultimately it'll work out.

  • kylejo21kylejo21 Member Posts: 2

    Ask yourself which games you keep coming back to when you question which games are best.  I prefered daoc's realm versus realm gameplay, yet wow has its own merits as well.  You cannot please them all, so wow has catered to the casual gamer which is what killed off a portion of the hardcore gamers.  There are still plenty of things to do, but as the generations of gamers age, priorities change and with that comes changes in requirements for the games coming out. 

  •  

    Originally posted by miataka


     
    Originally posted by Battlekruse


    hmm.  World of Warcraft have already lost 2 million subscriber and that is only a ½ year into TBC.

    where did you get this Idea?

     

    Link your source please. Cause If they lost SO many people why are they doing free transfers due to so many servers becoming filled up?

    Why has TBC topped sales over entire Stand alone Games? why is my server getting new to game People everyday?

    Try naming a source of your subs Lost other then , cause you and a few buddies stopped playing Dont meen 2 million people act just like you.

     

    as Far as Bashing...read the post I replied to , that person has a blind hate of the Game. ANd yes right now I honestly dont think any current game has the fast service updates and altogether Solid game that WOW has. I play it, I have fun, Im sure in the future Ill play and enjoy other games.

    That dont meen you have to walk in here and BASH 8.5 million players plus the game they love cause 1 person had a bad experiance or was mad at things that dont even exsisit anymore.

    that Guy came in here trolled and flamed a game I happen to really enjoy, I at least gave reasons why I disagreed with that person, I could have just yelled blind hate back at him. or called him a noob or some other retarded real bashing.

    No I gave debatable reasons and opinions as a current Player of the game he quit 6 months ago and is trying to act like he was logged in yesterday.If you think what I did was bashing then you havent seen some one really get flamed.

    Look how he claimed tehre was nothing new, when clearly there is ALOt of stuff added to the game.

    Why cant people just say , I played it, out grew it, lots of other people still enjoy it, End of story. No they have come in here and rant that ALL WOW players are kids, were not, in my guild we are mostly people in our 30's and there is 320+ people in this guild.

    If you love something and it gets attacked even if just in slanderous words, Would you sit back and let some guy that hasn't even played in 6 months bash your Game? or would you state your opinion and the FACT of the new stuff he claimed didnt exsist?

    if I was going to be passive and not speak my mind would I even read this forum?

     

     

    Remember Blizzard press release where they use the term 8 million accounts. Notice that it will say 8 million accounts created. That includes the one I made 3 years ago and let lapse at the end of the free 30 and all the gold seller accounts and all the free trials etc etc etc. Most estimates of current paying subscribers is about half that amount. That being said WoW will continue to out sell simply because WoW is aimed at a much younger audience. Both the lore and the graphics style is geared toward a teen age audience whose computers will not run more advanced graphical games. I would love to see hard figures but I would guess WoW's typical subscriber is around 15 years of age.



    Link is here: http://www.blizzard.com/press/070111.shtml

  • HexxeityHexxeity Member Posts: 848



    Remember Blizzard press release where they use the term 8 million accounts. Notice that it will say 8 million accounts created. That includes the one I made 3 years ago and let lapse at the end of the free 30 and all the gold seller accounts and all the free trials etc etc etc. Most estimates of current paying subscribers is about half that amount. That being said WoW will continue to out sell simply because WoW is aimed at a much younger audience. Both the lore and the graphics style is geared toward a teen age audience whose computers will not run more advanced graphical games. I would love to see hard figures but I would guess WoW's typical subscriber is around 15 years of age.



    Link is here: http://www.blizzard.com/press/070111.shtml

    The average age is 28.

    And they really do have about 8.5 million CURRENT subscribers.

    http://askbobrankin.com/world_of_warcraft.html

    Or go to Nick Yee's site, where the original data was collected.

  • I'm a fan of lists so here ya go:

    1. Miataka whats your highest character in wow.

    2.Um I've been playing wow for near 2 years and in my experience wow is a grind.  It may not be as bad as games you've listed or what not but, BUT, It's there and it's always been there.  Once you get to lvl 70 and you wanna start a new char or alt its like the quests mean nothing and your mindlessly running around with 20 quests trying to finish them all and turn them all in for 2 lvls(if ur a llower lvl).  Grinding probuly Isn't the right word for this I think I shall now referr to it as Quest Grinding.

    3.I love wow I really do but u just started and once u max lvl and taste the raid/ get ur tier armor it feels played out.  I mean i would play the game more and get back into it if blizz did one thing, Fixed one mistake.

    REIMPLEMENT THE OLD PVP RANK SYSTEM!!!!!

    o god O GOD YYYYY *sob*  y would they take it out Y I ASK U Y....  i have no clue y

    them taking that out ruined the game for me in many ways i see no reason y it cant coexcist with arena ranks and the new pvp reward system. PUT IT BACK IN BLIZZ and u will have my $15  month again.

    P.S. sry for the outburst

  • DubazDubaz Member Posts: 112


    Originally posted by miataka

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    I think the game is just simply aging. Alot of MMo's that are coming out are using better technology which seems more appealing to people. WoW was a fun game and still is to some but the game is just too simple. People expect more out of a MMO other then level grinding these days.


    LOL!!!!


    level grinding!!! level grinding!!!!!!

    there is no such thing in WOW... there is a billion and 1 quests and story arcs and faction to get rep, PVP, and instances....
    Grinding, NO wow player knows what real grinding is.
    Go try RF on-line or any Korean MMORPG, where there is NO quests, NO STORY, just mob levels in a range close to your current level that you can get xp off...
    anyone that says WOW is a grind hasn't even sampled some of the games on the market, RF, 9 dragons, silk road..... try a few and see what a GRIND game really is.
    RPG games are suppose to be talk to NPC, get quest , get rewards, THAT IS WHAT wow is... it is the only game out that actually lives upto the real defination of a RPG game...
    LOL wow a grind... that is just plain old funny.... really try RF online where you kill one kind of mob from lvl 40- 48 ... and there is only 50 levels in game.


    The issue you have, is that you compare WoW grinding to RF grinding. Allow me to point out to you, that the Korean market of RF is based on mindless grinding and it's one of its key-structures. This also comes from a slightly submissive culture ( by which I mean, that ranks/positions/power count for alot. Anyone that has ever been in China or the likes, is aware that people bow for you all day and their personalities get completely suppressed in their every-day activities) This counts for games as well.

    We European/Western players however, are a bit more agressive and we criticize fast.

    As I understand it, you started playing recently. I've played a warrior (Tank/Maintank/Raidleader/Guildleader) for about two years, untill deep in tBC.

    I've had the best times in WoW and I've also had the worst times of any game, in WoW. Playing casually with friends, if you can keep it up, is absolutely great. It's not about the game, it's about doing fun stuff with friends.

    However, once people get purples, they want more purples, guilds have to professionalize, suddenly friends don't matter anymore and people are being treated like little objects in a bigger plan. You will henceforth be addressed as "MAGES!""WARRIORS/TANKS!" and your name is no longer relevant, untill the moment you fuck up. When that happens, your name is probably the loudest thing that ever circled the earth.

    As I'm a progressive gamer, I want to achieve.However my own attitude does not allow myself, or other people I guild with, to be harassed by people that call themselves leaders, as if they are tiny soldiers.

    9 out of 10 guilds treats its members like this and that is why WoW will eventually die, because the game is not about fun in it's full length. I agree, PvP can be a blast and if you really enjoy it so much, that you can last 2 years in a battleground without ever getting tired of it, you might still see the beauty of the game.

    I also was a huge fan of tBC, I thought that the 10 man raids would solve the issues regarding player-control, less people to manage, a more friendly and tight community. Instead it splits guilds apart in 2 or 3 raids of 10 who hardly ever play with eachother outside these raids. Guilds are being used as jumps to higher guilds and personal gain florishes more than ever.

    I've litterally been brought close to tears by several people in two years, just because I thought these people had ethics and we could be friends without it having to involve politics and I was dead-wrong. But the fact is, the cries of agony, anger and sorrow grow more every day. People refuse to play, because they are forced into specs they dislike. When they refuse to play the way guilds want, they are doomed to either a PvP guild, with an even less tight community ( unless you really have a good one and I found those to be rare) or remain casual for ever.

    Enjoy it as long as it lasts, but you too will one day say, "how have I been able to endure this game for so long.." .. and I'm happy I recently left..clean for 3 months now and no side-effects of wanting to return..

    I loved tanking, I was damn good at it ( 9 mob in shattered ? np, 10 ? np, adds ? hand them over ), but enough is enough.


    I completely forgot my mainpoint :P

    Once you have reached the position in a guild, where you want to keep it, you are asked to grind. You will not just grind a bit, no you will grind 1 hour, then you will raid, after the raid, you will grind untill you drop, to do the same again the next day, after which you will raid and grind some more.

    That's not an opinion, that's a very clear fact. Unless Blizzard finally managed to do something about it that surpasses the idea of cutting down on Alchemy, but I truly doubt that.


    Btw, the Pink, really, severaly, hurts my friggin eyes. You are a girl, ok, just add it in your sig, but please, don't attention whore with it.

  • MentatMentat Member UncommonPosts: 516
    Originally posted by davidw123


     
    Originally posted by Deathstiny


    The 800 pound gorilla will look more like a cuddly chimpanzee by the end of next year. It will still be a strong game but the true impact of the BC will become apparent when WAR is released. Right now it's not as noticeable as there simply is no alternative for players but no worries .... it's coming!
     

     

    Or it will simply smash Warhammer in the same way it did Vanguard, Guildwars and the rest.

    Well, understand that Vanguard and Guildwars are not awesome games by comparison. Simply put - World of Warcraft reinvented the wheel as far as mmorpgs are concerned. It turned from a slow, time consuming, painful level grind, into a fun, fast and furious level grind with a lot to offer the end gamers as well.

    I think BC highlights skilled players and players that want to succeed in see'n the end game content. Although I will probably leave at least for a short while to check out the new up and comers to see if they live up to the hype (I don't expect it but, it would and hopefully will be nice).

    In the old world 40 man instances a slacker or 10 could be pulled through - in BC you can't have a huge amount of slackers in the raid. Personally I like that. Slackers always slow progression and cause people who give it their all to be dragged down a bit - they can turn a successful raid into a failure but, I digress.

    Back to the original question - yes, it's still a beast.

     

    Beware of this one thing - if you like healing don't pick priest - blizzard has rewarded those that enjoy playing the priest with 2 broken talent trees - the only functional tree is shadow. meaning a priest does not make a great mana efficient healer - instead they are gimped. I really dislike this and wish blizzard would fix it. Furthermore and worstly blizzard has catered extremely hard to the palidin class - making them ridiculously good in solo, pvp and end game healing - thanks for screwing the priest blizzard - hence mine is retired and I now play a mage.

     

     

  • ScalebaneScalebane Member UncommonPosts: 1,881

    well i can say this much, their boxes for the original wow now have stickers saying over 7mil, so they changed that, but as for all these years later they have kept in the top 10 in sales.

     

    latest listing for pc game sales:

    Top 10 PC Games (Week Ending July 7, 2007)

    Chart posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007



    1. World Of Warcraft: Burning Crusade

    2. World Of Warcraft

    3. Nancy Drew: The White Wolf Of Icicle Creek

    4. The Sims 2 H&M Fashion Stuff

    5. The Sims 2 Deluxe

    6. Transformers: The Game

    7. The Sims 2 Seasons

    8. Harry Potter & The Order Of The Phoenix

    9. Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars

    10. The Sims 2 Pets

    Courtesy of The NPD Group

    image

    "The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
    - Lewis Thomas

  •  

    Originally posted by Hexxeity


     

     
     
     
    Remember Blizzard press release where they use the term 8 million accounts. Notice that it will say 8 million accounts created. That includes the one I made 3 years ago and let lapse at the end of the free 30 and all the gold seller accounts and all the free trials etc etc etc. Most estimates of current paying subscribers is about half that amount. That being said WoW will continue to out sell simply because WoW is aimed at a much younger audience. Both the lore and the graphics style is geared toward a teen age audience whose computers will not run more advanced graphical games. I would love to see hard figures but I would guess WoW's typical subscriber is around 15 years of age.



    Link is here: http://www.blizzard.com/press/070111.shtml

     

    The average age is 28.

    And they really do have about 8.5 million CURRENT subscribers.

    http://askbobrankin.com/world_of_warcraft.html

    Or go to Nick Yee's site, where the original data was collected.

     

    LOL,  Ask  Bob Rankin ?

    I will not trust that source of information there is not reliable.

     

    Originally posted by Scalebane


    well i can say this much, their boxes for the original wow now have stickers saying over 7mil, so they changed that, but as for all these years later they have kept in the top 10 in sales.
     
    latest listing for pc game sales:
    Top 10 PC Games (Week Ending July 7, 2007)

    Chart posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007



    1. World Of Warcraft: Burning Crusade

    2. World Of Warcraft

    3. Nancy Drew: The White Wolf Of Icicle Creek

    4. The Sims 2 H&M Fashion Stuff

    5. The Sims 2 Deluxe

    6. Transformers: The Game

    7. The Sims 2 Seasons

    8. Harry Potter & The Order Of The Phoenix

    9. Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars

    10. The Sims 2 Pets

    Courtesy of The NPD Group

    That chart is for United State of American only. Not the rest of the world. 

    There is a different chart, for China, European (Germany, England, Franc etc.) and Japan etc.

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,705

    Ok, how many times do people have to tell you WoWzers that 8-9 million copies sold does not = 8-9 million subscribers. Then, taking into consideration the games popularity, can you even imagine how many active accounts are gold farmers, power leveling or item farming accounts? What about all the accounts that have been banned? All that being said, I'm sure WoW still has between 3-6 million active members, but of my 2 accounts, 0 are active and I'm not the only one.

    So, let's be generous and say WoW has 5-6 million active accounts. If Blizzard doesn't throw out another expansion before WAR comes out, specifically focusing on improving the PvP aspect of the game, it's going to lose a lot of players. Simply because WoW has been out for over 2 years and will be 3 years old this year. It's a proven fact, people leave games for newer ones simply for the newness factor. The longest time I've ever played an MMO was probably just over 4 years and that was EQ and DAoC. I don't play either of those anymore, but I still consider them the 2 best games I've ever played.

    I'm not saying AoC or WAR are going to kill WoW, but let's admit the fact when WoW first came out, it was destined to be a PvP game, not a PvE game. That vision was lost and people sucked it up for 2 years until the first expansion and even then, PvP took 2nd place. Either Blizzard is going to pull an SWG and completely screw themselves over or they can keep the game alive by focusing on PvP aspects in their next expansion. WoW has too many PvP fanatics to just consider them a drop in the bucket.

    So, tell me, do you think Blizzard will have another expansion coming out by next spring? Probably not, but if they did, do you think they'd improve the PvP focus? Hard to say.

    To be honest, I don't know how well AoC will do, but I've already guesstimated a 500k subscription quota for WAR within 6 months of release. Hell, LOTRO is claiming to be closing in on 1 million subscriptions. The MMO market is increasing, which is great, cause it means more people to keep more games populated. I'm only making a personal guess that WoW will in fact hit a sale flatline over the next year. Depending on how well AoC and WAR do, WoW could be looking at it's peak by 2009. Maybe Blizzard will get lucky and reach the 10 million copies sold by then, lol.

  • davidw123davidw123 Member Posts: 70

    Originally posted by Rhoklaw


    If Blizzard doesn't throw out another expansion before WAR comes out, specifically focusing on improving the PvP aspect of the game, it's going to lose a lot of players.


    Why exactly? You make it sound like a feature like PvP, a niche feature at best, is going to be a deciding factor in whether WoW triumphs over WAR. If PvP was as important to WoW players as you seem to think, and if WoW's PvP is as lacking as you think, then why have they played the game all this time?

     

    Actually, I'll answer my own question: because PvP isn't that important to the majority of WoW players. That another game has better PvP isn't going to be relevant to the people who aren't interested in it. Guildwars has player houses, WoW doesn't. How many WoW players abandoned and went to play Guildwars as a result of this? Not many I'm guessing.

  • JsteinerJsteiner Member Posts: 217

    OP: Yes.

    The ultimate solution to every problem: more space marines.

  • FahrenheitTHFahrenheitTH Member Posts: 130

    It is, will be, for many years to come. Look at Runescape and Jagex, Runescape is ancient, and they're still stuffing their faces. WoW is still quite young whe compared to some games, and only one expansion set has come out. Look at AO, it has 4 of them, and still growing.

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  • ElgarethElgareth Member Posts: 588

    Originally posted by FahrenheitTH


    It is, will be, for many years to come. Look at Runescape and Jagex, Runescape is ancient, and they're still stuffing their faces. WoW is still quite young whe compared to some games, and only one expansion set has come out. Look at AO, it has 4 of them, and still growing.

    But remember that Runescape is free, and AO is free nowadays, too. (Well, for one year in AO...)

  • FahrenheitTHFahrenheitTH Member Posts: 130

    Good point but, if what I have been hearing is true, the subsciption fee of our dear WoW has been redued to a mere $9.99, which is quite affordable, even on a crappy kiddie allowance basis.

    Still, Jagex and Funcom still make reasonable proits from their subscribers

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  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,705

    Originally posted by davidw123


     
    Originally posted by Rhoklaw


    If Blizzard doesn't throw out another expansion before WAR comes out, specifically focusing on improving the PvP aspect of the game, it's going to lose a lot of players.


     

    Why exactly? You make it sound like a feature like PvP, a niche feature at best, is going to be a deciding factor in whether WoW triumphs over WAR. If PvP was as important to WoW players as you seem to think, and if WoW's PvP is as lacking as you think, then why have they played the game all this time?

     

    Actually, I'll answer my own question: because PvP isn't that important to the majority of WoW players. That another game has better PvP isn't going to be relevant to the people who aren't interested in it. Guildwars has player houses, WoW doesn't. How many WoW players abandoned and went to play Guildwars as a result of this? Not many I'm guessing.


    I didn't say everyone in WoW wants PvP. I said they shouldn't ignore the ones that do because they are not a drop in the bucket. Out of the so called 9 million subscribers, I'm pretty sure 1 out of 10 players would prefer a PvP focused WoW. Thats almost 1 million of their current subscribers.

    WAR won't have player housing either, but all I can do now is say, wait and watch next spring and see what happens. I've made my predicitions and thats all they are, is predictions. PvE can only entertain people for so long and unless your like EQ or EQ2, which pump out PvE expansions twice a year, not once every 2 years, your going to commit suicide. Blizzard needs to make a choice and not diddle daddle on top of their high horse. Either focus on PvE and release expansions more frequently or focus on PvP and get an expansion out before another game steals their customers.

  • LisakaLisaka Member Posts: 31

    Rhoklaw, can you please explain this to me?

    The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards.

    Why the hell so many people continue to say that it's 8 copies ever sold? What better explanation do you want?

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950


    Originally posted by Ruiny
    The irony of CyberWiz claiming someone "doesn't have a clue" then talking about how WoW only has a "couple of CTF battlegrounds" is pretty hilarious. It's clear, CyberWiz, that you've not played WoW's PvP for at least a couple of years, and somehow you managed to avoid ever playing in or finding out about Alterac Valley (40v40 BG). I doubt you've ever even seen the inside of a BG apart from maybe WSG a handful of times.
    Was DAoC's PvP better? Yeah, in most ways, but for it to be better you needed 7 other people of the right classes, and you needed to be on a server/cluster with a decent population balance. What you need to get through your skull is that both had pretty severe problems. WoW, 1v1 or even 1v3, skill could out, sometimes. In DAoC, class was all that mattered, so only 8v8+ conflicts had any real meaning or depth. The average 5v5 battle in WoW is still vastly more complex and brain-requiring than most 8v8 battles in DAoC too.
    I say this as someone who RvR'd in DAoC for FIVE years, so don't come and try to claim I don't know what I'm talking about.
    In both WoW and DAoC, the PvP sucks and owns. Which do I have more fun in? Nowdays, WoW, because the PvP doesn't require me to wait for hours to get a group, find the right members for that group, and so on. If WoW had a DAoC-style Frontier, with truly capturable locations which were actually worth something, and better rewarding of PvP (RPs are a much better system than WoW's honor/badges or godawful "rich get richer" Arena system), then we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because we'd be too busy out there having fun.
    As for the endgame, again, it's clear you've not played WoW in years. It's not perfect, but it's no worse than the PvE endgame of any other MMO, and more fun than most. That's the only reason I'm still playing the damn thing. The PvP endgame is inferior to DAoC, but barely, at this stage in both the game's lives.
    So yes, WoW is still the 800lb gorilla of MMORPGs, even in PvP. Will it stay that way next year? Unlikely, as there are so many well-designed games which can take what's good about WoW and improve it, whilst dumping the bad bit (of which there are plenty). WAR is foremost among these, though they're making some questionable decisions at the moment, I think ultimately it'll work out.

    I do know the existence of AV, I played WoW on and off since release until TBC and leveled my char to 70.

    And I have played all of the BG's quite often, including AV, but AV had too long waiting times. And AV is the only 40 player instance. All the others vary from 10 to 15.

    So most BG's are 10 to 15 man, but even the 40 man BG doesnt have a point.

    I did not play arena much.

    I also played the world PVP objectives, and I enjoyed myself, but they arent worked out well enough and the BG's steal the pvp'er away from that.

    Yes I have had fun times with the BG's, the world PvP, the newer world PvP objectives, and I will even agree that currently WoW is better then DAoC.

    And yes the endgame raid instances can be fun, but it is an elitist system, that excludes your friends per definition. And yes I have played ZG ( cleared ), AQ20, MC ( cleared ), and the newer 10 man raid instance ( forgot the name ). I have been GM and healerleader.

    So perhaps I did not mention some things I should have :p

    What it comes down too is that WoW is a great game and can be alot of fun, but it has not enough mmorpg feel to it imho.

    I dont like the endgame raiding anymore, and the endgame PvP is not what I want it to be.

    I will quote you "If WoW had a DAoC-style Frontier, with truly capturable locations which were actually worth something, and better rewarding of PvP (RPs are a much better system than WoW's honor/badges or godawful "rich get richer" Arena system), then we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because we'd be too busy out there having fun."

    I totally agree with you there ... and pretty much sums up how I feel currently.

    Greetings

    If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
    http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
    Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950


    Originally posted by davidw123
    Originally posted by Rhoklaw If Blizzard doesn't throw out another expansion before WAR comes out, specifically focusing on improving the PvP aspect of the game, it's going to lose a lot of players.
    Why exactly? You make it sound like a feature like PvP, a niche feature at best, is going to be a deciding factor in whether WoW triumphs over WAR. If PvP was as important to WoW players as you seem to think, and if WoW's PvP is as lacking as you think, then why have they played the game all this time?
     
    Actually, I'll answer my own question: because PvP isn't that important to the majority of WoW players. That another game has better PvP isn't going to be relevant to the people who aren't interested in it. Guildwars has player houses, WoW doesn't. How many WoW players abandoned and went to play Guildwars as a result of this? Not many I'm guessing.

    I think you would be surprised on how many PvP'ers there are out there. Even now, in WoW, playing the Arena and Battlegrounds. Also AFAIK there are more PvP servers then PvE servers in WoW. In the old days, raids on Southshore and Tarren Mill were very common, and attracted alot of players.

    It is the balance between PvE and PvP that has to be found. I think WoW has this balance right, content wise, but I feel that the PvP is too meaningless. After all, we are playing a MMORPG, it should offer something more then Capture the Flag and King of the Hill.

    Greetings

    If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
    http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
    Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online

  • miatakamiataka Member Posts: 232

    Originally posted by xsarkaix


    I'm a fan of lists so here ya go:
    1. Miataka whats your highest character in wow.

    Of my Long list of many characters on 2 servers. My highest is a lvl 61 Rogue, tho its seems funny to have to tell you a fellow x-fire user, click on my sig and look at my prfoile it lists all my characters/server/ level / class and all that fun stuff.
    2.Um I've been playing wow for near 2 years and in my experience wow is a grind.  It may not be as bad as games you've listed or what not but, BUT, It's there and it's always been there.  Once you get to lvl 70 and you wanna start a new char or alt its like the quests mean nothing and your mindlessly running around with 20 quests trying to finish them all and turn them all in for 2 lvls(if ur a llower lvl).  Grinding probuly Isn't the right word for this I think I shall now referr to it as Quest Grinding.

    3.I love wow I really do but u just started and once u max lvl and taste the raid/ get ur tier armor it feels played out.  I mean i would play the game more and get back into it if blizz did one thing, Fixed one mistake.
    I hear alot of people want these back, too me it dont matter. Im in WOW to hang out with RL frineds and alot of on-line freinds from old guilds, from SWG and RF are her ein my server /guild and we have a great time.
    REIMPLEMENT THE OLD PVP RANK SYSTEM!!!!!
    o god O GOD YYYYY *sob*  y would they take it out Y I ASK U Y....  i have no clue y
    them taking that out ruined the game for me in many ways i see no reason y it cant coexcist with arena ranks and the new pvp reward system. PUT IT BACK IN BLIZZ and u will have my $15  month again.
    P.S. sry for the outburst
    NP the out burst is why we have forums rigt?  lol besides all the people I know that played with the ranks in all agree, and dont understand like you do why they were removed. Id like to see a offical blizz reason.  They should add it back in for you and all the vets, I agree 100%

    I enjoy the game as in, I have no intrest in raiding, I have fun in PVP-BGs, and HAVE ALOT of fun helping guildmates and new people in genral, I love crafting stuff and buying and selling stuff on the AH.

    I have no real strong desire or feel a great need to max level anytime soon, when I do as I do slowly just hanging out laughing having a great time with my friends will be fine. if I never do.. I wouldn't feel somehow incomplete.



    I guess really I play WOW and most MMO's for a very different reason and motivations then most players in genral. That makes all the differance in the world. Im a gammer looking to relax and have fun with friends...online... in a fictious world...

    I have a real life job...I dont want one out as a hobby. Nor do I have any burning desire to prove anything to anyone or myself for that matter.

    I game to have fun.

    =^.^=

    image
    image
    Miataka (+many sub variation of that)
    ~WoW (Kael'Thas, USA)
    MiaTaka
    ~ RF On-line (Fire Server)
    -Mia- takahashi
    ~SWG (Europe-chimaera)
    Miataki Valeinca
    ~EQ 2 (everfrost)
    MiaTaka Soyinka
    ~Second Life

  • miatakamiataka Member Posts: 232

    Originally posted by CyberWiz


     

    Originally posted by davidw123


    Originally posted by Rhoklaw
     
    If Blizzard doesn't...
     



    Why exactly? ...


     

    I think you would be surprised on how many PvP'ers there are out there. Even now, in WoW, playing the Arena and Battlegrounds. Also AFAIK there are more PvP servers then PvE servers in WoW. In the old days, raids on Southshore and Tarren Mill were very common, and attracted alot of players.

    It is the balance between PvE and PvP that has to be found. I think WoW has this balance right, content wise, but I feel that the PvP is too meaningless. After all, we are playing a MMORPG, it should offer something more then Capture the Flag and King of the Hill.

    Greetings

    Ok the part I highlighted in green I have a serious problem with. See.. WOW is a MMORPG.

    WOW is not a MMOPVP or MMORVR

    just because as a side mini game it has player Vs player  interaction, you are seriously missing the point, no where was WOW ever promoted as the preimere RvR game or was it ever intended to be. See WOW is a true RPG

    Role Playing Game = you Role Play a fictious character in a fantasy realm where you obtain quests from the non-player characters of the Land to become a legendary hero type.

    Everyone that uses endgame/ raids/ PVP as part of your argument that wow is lacking, have totally missed the point of the Game.

    ENDGAME = having fun helping your friends and having a good time!!  help tutor lower levels, instead of yelling at someone calling them a noob or standing arround Orgimmar /stormwind Challenging level 12's to duels with your 70. You could be showing them talking to them on how to play, what quests have good rewards, helping them in instances.

    Raids = was intended for fun, it was ment as a community challenge. It was never ment to be your endgame. Players get greedy and want the rarest of rare legendary Items.. for what...pure bragging rights. THAT is NOT blizzards fault !!!!

    The POINT my fellow gamers is that, WOW was and is still being developed to its true nature, Its a form of entertainment,

    NOT A FULL TIME JOB,

    I dont care if you made your experiance that, or if your guild became greedy, that is not with in Blizzards control.

    its a Massive multiplayer On-line Role playing Game. It was always intended to be a fast learn, pick up and play. fantasy world filled with dragons , orcs, elves and dwarfs... where you get to meet up and play with your friends to be part of this fantasy world you rescue from the evil demons of the burning crusade.

    It was never a FPS, counterstrike, PVP centered game, Im sorry IF THAT happens to be the feature you love, fien , but you cant be mad that a mini side game in a RPG doesnt meet every need of every PVPer in the world, it was never inteneded too.



    PVP is ONLY a mini game.... no matter how you feel or think, thats it...thats all blizz ment it too be. thats why its instanced, thats why there ARE tons of quests. the fact that enough people asked for PVP servers and Blizz accomodated its players and made dedicated PVP servers dont change the fact On the deveopment end of the real game its still just a mini game ment for temporary amusment.

    No wonder people get mad or get bored with WOW.

    image
    image
    Miataka (+many sub variation of that)
    ~WoW (Kael'Thas, USA)
    MiaTaka
    ~ RF On-line (Fire Server)
    -Mia- takahashi
    ~SWG (Europe-chimaera)
    Miataki Valeinca
    ~EQ 2 (everfrost)
    MiaTaka Soyinka
    ~Second Life

  • davidw123davidw123 Member Posts: 70
    Originally posted by Rhoklaw


     

    this? Not many I'm guessing.
    I didn't say everyone in WoW wants PvP. I said they shouldn't ignore the ones that do because they are not a drop in the bucket. Out of the so called 9 million subscribers, I'm pretty sure 1 out of 10 players would prefer a PvP focused WoW. Thats almost 1 million of their current subscribers.

     

    WAR won't have player housing either, but all I can do now is say, wait and watch next spring and see what happens. I've made my predicitions and thats all they are, is predictions. PvE can only entertain people for so long and unless your like EQ or EQ2, which pump out PvE expansions twice a year, not once every 2 years, your going to commit suicide. Blizzard needs to make a choice and not diddle daddle on top of their high horse. Either focus on PvE and release expansions more frequently or focus on PvP and get an expansion out before another game steals their customers.




    Assuming that figure is accurate (and whether it is or not I have no idea), it’s unlikely Blizzard are going to move in a PvP direction if only 10% of their players like this sort of thing. Wouldn’t it make more sense to create more content that the 90% majority prefer?

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