IMO besides EVE and UO vanguard is more a sandbox game then the rest of the current MMOS even SWG today. In vanguard there is a plathora of races and classes to choose from each with their own background and uniqueness not the current 7-9 classes. Vanguard allows one to be a adventurer, crafter, diplomat anything they wanna be. MMorpgs today are wayyyy to linear, while play vanguard for the first time it felt epic, it didnt feel linear and that in my opinion is a sandbox.
You could have 1,000 classes and not have a sandbox game. Sandboxes give you a broad choice all along, not just on the day of character creation.
You CAN have classes and levels and still have a sandbox, but most games that have them are not (and this includes VG).
Here's how they differ:
Sandbox: At each level you get, say, "skill points" that can be put into any skill of your choosing. Rolemaster (in pen and paper) is a perfect example of this - any class can learn any skill using the skill points you get at each level. The only difference among the classes is how much it costs to buy the skill. So, for example, a wizard can learn to use a sword just as well as a fighter, but it would take more skill points to do it (and he'd probably have to sacrifice spell casting in exchange).
Linear: At each level, you get a pre-defined set of skills or abilities based on your class/race. The classic example of this is 1st edition AD&D, where there were no "skills", and all the choices had been made for you by the designers. A wizard ("magic-user" back then) could only use a dagger or a staff as a weapon... forget Gandalf wielding a sword -- not allowed in first edition AD&D. A Paladin got exactly this spell at level 8 and that spell at level 10. All level 20 Paladins therefore had 100% identical abilities -- the only option was which weapon you used (sword, mace, etc) and so on. This is NOT a sandbox style, because you cannot choose which abilities or skills or what have you to give your character over time.
In a sandbox game, you design the character as it grows, over time. In a linear game, you "buy into" a pre-ordained design for the character on day 1, when you select the class.
Vanguard is definitely in the "Linear" category, not sandbox. If you play a Shaman, you automatically "buy into" all the Shaman abilities and skills, and you gain them at the same level as every other Shaman. The same is true of Paladin, Monk, and all other classes. Even within Monk, for example, there is the illusion of choosing a fighting style -- drunken, etc. But other than "stances" which just affect your to-hit and damage totals, the moves do not change... My Harmonious Body monk learned all the moves, at the same level as all the other monks, thus she could do drunken punches and harmonious dodges and whatever. Again, it was all pre-mapped-out for me by the developers -- "at level 1 you get punch A, at level 3 you get kick B, at level 9 you get dodge C" and so on -- and all I was doing was "connecting the dots" by gaining levels.
In a Sandbox game, those choices would have been left up to me as a player.
You can do anything you want..when you want...however you want ...to do it. The world is massive and open ended. You can quest, raid, harvest, practice diplomacy, craft, solo, group or role play till you heart is content.
A sandbox-style video game (or a video game with an optional sandbox mode) is a video game with an open-ended and non-linear style of gameplay, or a mode of gameplay within a game that is more often played in a goal-directed manner. The sandbox analogy is used to describe this style of gaming because, as with a physical sandbox, the user is simply allowed to do what he or she wishes (with the available game elements and within the limitations of the game engine - the metaphoric toys within, and boundaries of, the sandbox). This free-form experimentation is either an end unto itself - in contrast to competing models of gaming - or is a variant modality that has no effect on more traditional or usual play of the same game, such as scores, game level advancement milestones, player rankings etc. Just as a real-world sandbox can be smoothed out and resculpted again and again, so the sandbox game or game mode can be played and explored repeatedly without a linear "plot" or a particular set of expectations, nor any lasting game-play consequences.
You can only do as much as you want in VG within the restrictions of your class and level. Vangaurd is not a sandbox game at all. Saga of Ryzom is a perfect example of what defines a classic sandbox game. You are not restricted by class levels and you can learn any skill you want in the game when you want. Sorry but the EQ1 model of class based and level based game play that is seen in Vanguard removes it from being a sandbox game.
Also the game world may be large but it is completely static! Go play SoR and experience the seasons in that game and the social interactions between the fauna and flora and NPCs and PC players in SoR and you'll understand how static the world in VG really is IMHO.
The guild interactions and events are what determine the flow of the game in SoR and are what shape the world's landscape but in VG it's all NPC driven content that is dependent on the developer to dish out. A true sandbox game is a game that is primarily driven by the players themselves and npc content is not a major factor in the game play. Also the bulk of this game content is already in place in the game world for sandbox game. Constant expansions are not needed aside from creating more options to grant players more abilities to interact with each other and the game environment.
I was in SoR beta. I did not like that game. I prefer the old school fantasy role play setting ....and don't consider the structure of character advancement to be a part of whether it is a sandbox game or now.
Think about the real life comparison of a sandbox. Take a kid and put them in the sandbox...does the sandbox cease to be a sandbox once someone starts playing in it?....no
Our characters are that kid playing in a sandbox...and the way the kid grows and developes has nothing to do with a sandbox. It's still a sandbox no matter who plays in it. You are refering to the " who " part....I am refering to the actual sandbox in the context that it was meant to be used.
Vanguard IS the sandbox....YOU are the kid ( person ) playing in it.
You be a lv 1 ..or lv 50 or..no levels at all...Vanguard is still just the sandbox.
I think a sandbox should be very very dynamic. Character development is key, and you don't have variety within the same class in VG, so this one is out. A sandbox reacts to the actions of players, how does VG react (other then servers merging where there is not enough meat). A sandbox has player driven economy (at least partially). A sandbox presents choices at every turn, which simply is not possible with the hard coded game that VG is. Everything is set in stone. I mean, what purpose does having 50 levels have, and all the huge spaces that VG has, if you are unable to change (changing being the very premise of a sandbox)?
It's the newest marketing excuse. Calling VG a sandbox is a fence for all of it's shortcomings on oh so many levels.
I prefer the old school fantasy role play setting ....and don't consider the structure of character advancement to be a part of whether it is a sandbox game or not.
You are entitled to use whatever definition you want, of course. But you have to realize this is not going to satisfy most other people on the thread. Since almost everyone else BUT you considers the structure of character advancement to be crucial to whether a game is a sandbox or not, what you have basically done is change the definition of a sandbox as we have been using it on this thread and then said, "Vanguard is one." This is equivalent to me changing the definition of the color blue to be what everyone else calls "green" and then saying, "See, the grass is blue."
Again, you're certainly free to do that if you wish, but don't expect to convince the rest of us that grass is blue by arbitrarily defining it however you feel like.
Sandbox games are about freedom... about lack of restrictions. Vanguard has some of that, which is why I said it was a sandbox wannabe... But. it's not a true sandbox like Ryzom or pre-CU SWG were. If yo u can't understand the difference then, well... there's no point in discussing it further.
I prefer the old school fantasy role play setting ....and don't consider the structure of character advancement to be a part of whether it is a sandbox game or not.
You are entitled to use whatever definition you want, of course. But you have to realize this is not going to satisfy most other people on the thread. Since almost everyone else BUT you considers the structure of character advancement to be crucial to whether a game is a sandbox or not, what you have basically done is change the definition of a sandbox as we have been using it on this thread and then said, "Vanguard is one." This is equivalent to me changing the definition of the color blue to be what everyone else calls "green" and then saying, "See, the grass is blue."
Again, you're certainly free to do that if you wish, but don't expect to convince the rest of us that grass is blue by arbitrarily defining it however you feel like.
Sandbox games are about freedom... about lack of restrictions. Vanguard has some of that, which is why I said it was a sandbox wannabe... But. it's not a true sandbox like Ryzom or pre-CU SWG were. If yo u can't understand the difference then, well... there's no point in discussing it further.
C
If I would say "Vanguard is not a sandbox MMO" that doesn't mean that I did say "Vanguard is a sandbox MMO".
No one would say that blue is green.
So aslong for tha grass, different shades of green. Are we talking about grass as in a lawn that could stretch from green-brown to green-yellow. But then again... It's only the definition "true" that is importartant.
You can do anything you want..when you want...however you want ...to do it. The world is massive and open ended. You can quest, raid, harvest, practice diplomacy, craft, solo, group or role play till you heart is content.
You can do all of that except diplomacy in WoW.
I was in SoR beta. I did not like that game. I prefer the old school fantasy role play setting ....and don't consider the structure of character advancement to be a part of whether it is a sandbox game or now.
By definition, a sandbox does not put ANYlimitations on what you can do. You can be
architect AND engineer AND artist. Once you choose a class in Vanguard or WoW,
your choice of abilities are immediately limited. A mage can not heal, a monk can
not nuke, a priest can not backstab. In games that are considered sandboxes (such
as Oblivion), there are no such restrictions. A rogue can heal, a mage can backstab,
a priest can use hand to hand combat and summon a pet. What is trying to be conveyed
with the term "sandbox" is that once you choose a class, you do not also inherit a bunch
of limitations.
Think about the real life comparison of a sandbox. Take a kid and put them in the sandbox...does the sandbox cease to be a sandbox once someone starts playing in it?....no
Indeed the child does not cease to be a child. However once he destroys a building,
he does not cease being an architect. Our characters are that kid playing in a sandbox...and the way the kid grows and developes has nothing to do with a sandbox. It's still a sandbox no matter who plays in it. You are refering to the " who " part....I am refering to the actual sandbox in the context that it was meant to be used.
No the sandbox doesn't change but the child has no limitations on what he can do in
that sandbox once he decides to create something. Vanguard IS the sandbox....YOU are the kid ( person ) playing in it.
Look again at the Wiki characteristics of a game that is considered to be a sandbox :
"Just as a real-world sandbox can be smoothed out and resculpted again and again, so the sandbox game or game mode can be played and explored repeatedly without a linear "plot" or a particular set of expectations, nor any lasting game-play consequences".
The point they are trying to make is that in a true sandbox, a pally can use guns or
bows and arrows, stealth, have pets, and nuke. In other words there are NO weapon
or attack style consequences from choosing to be a paladin. Since MMOs typically
design classes to be interdependent, it is highly unlikely that an MMO will truly be a
sandbox.
You be a lv 1 ..or lv 50 or..no levels at all...Vanguard is still just the sandbox.
But once you choose to be a paladin, you can not stealth, nuke or use guns. That is
I've read most of the posts here and still disagree with many of the posters.
Sandbox gameplay refers to what one DOES in game or CAN DO in a game ...NOT how one developes as a character. That is called .. character developement.
Vanguard is a sandbox game because there is no linear line of gameplay. You can adventure, harvest, craft...whatever...whenever you want.
Character developement has nothing to do with sandbox gameplay.
Take the real life analogy....of a real life sandbox.....what a person is wearing or how they develope while playing in a sandbox has absolutely no effect on whether they are playing in a sandbox or not.
Vanguard is the sandbox. Character developement is just that...character developement...independant of sandbox playstyle. Unlike WoW and many other mmo's that use mountains and other such geopgraphical features to control where one goes...Vanguard allows a player to go any place they can see.....whether you are lv 1 or lv 50 ...have 5 skills or 100 skills....that has nothing to do with sandbox gameplay.
To me...and according to Wiki....Vanguard ( and other games like it ) says.." here is your world.( sandbox)..heres a bunch of toys.( quests, xp and such ) ..now jump in and see what you can make".
I don't see how the number options the actual character gets in it's leveling process has anything to do with playing a game in a sandbox type world. To me that is about character developement...not sandbox gameplay.
I've read most of the posts here and still disagree with many of the posters. Sandbox gameplay refers to what one DOES in game or CAN DO in a game ...NOT how one developes as a character. That is called .. character developement.
But what one does and can do in sandbox gameplay is NOT a function of the class you
pick. In a "real" sandbox you use a shovel, however if you find a plastic cup, there is
no reason why you can't use it. It's not a traditional sandbox toy, but you are not
restricted from using it. in true sandbox gameplay, you choose a class and you get a
predefined set of abilities but those abilities can be supplemented. Regardless of your
class, If you find a gun in game and you want to use it, you simply begin using it - it
does not matter whether you are a mage, a paladin, a priest, or a hunter.
In true sandbox gameplay, you do not have to do things in a prescribed order. The
game evolves with you. When you visit town A at level 3, the mobs are levels 2 - 4.
When you visit the same town later at say level 15, the mobs are now level 12 - 17.
Vanguard is a sandbox game because there is no linear line of gameplay. You can adventure, harvest, craft...whatever...whenever you want.
You keep saying that you can choose to adventure, harvest, craft, and raid. So can
you be a carpenter and a skinner ? In a true sandbox, you can wear multiple hats.
It would seem that a profession (harvesting and crafting) is nothing more than
character development also.
Character developement has nothing to do with sandbox gameplay.
The appeal of a sandbox is that you can be and do whatever you want. Each time you
reenter the sandbox it is a different experience. Tell your child that he can only build
one kind of house or draw one kind of picture and see how quickly the sandbox loses
its appeal. The sandbox allows you to be anyone you want to be and express yourself
any way you choose. In a similar vein, character development allows you to be any
thing you want to be - the rogue that heals, the priest that summons a pet to fight for
him.
Take the real life analogy....of a real life sandbox.....what a person is wearing or how they develope while playing in a sandbox has absolutely no effect on whether they are playing in a sandbox or not.
What do clothes have to do with a sandbox? It is still a sandbox whether you wear
pants, a dress, or go nude. The sandbox has everything to do with imagination and
being able to create whatever you want without having to meet any kind of expectations.
A sandbox castle does not have to have windows or doors, it does not have to have a
moat, etc. In a similar vein, a rogue does not have to use daggers or swords, he can
nuke and summon pets.
Vanguard is the sandbox. Character developement is just that...character developement...independant of sandbox playstyle. Unlike WoW and many other mmo's that use mountains and other such geopgraphical features to control where one goes...Vanguard allows a player to go any place they can see.....whether you are lv 1 or lv 50 ...have 5 skills or 100 skills....that has nothing to do with sandbox gameplay.
Being able to go to any corner in no way defines anything about what a sandbox is.
It is about being whatever you want to be and doing whatever you want to do without
preconceived restrictions. To me...and according to Wiki....Vanguard ( and other games like it ) says.." here is your world.( sandbox)..heres a bunch of toys.( quests, xp and such ) ..now jump in and see what you can make".
That was not the definition you presented earlier from Wiki. Does Wiki now have
multiple definitions of sandbox ? I don't see how the number options the actual character gets in it's leveling process has anything to do with playing a game in a sandbox type world. To me that is about character developement...not sandbox gameplay.
Just because you don't see it, does not mean that it does not exist or is not true.
Read the earlier Wiki definition of sandbox and notice that it does not exclude
character development. It says gameplay that has no linear plot or particular set
of expectations (ie. no hard coded preconception of what a character can or can
VG is EQ3 more or less, and hence, a threadmill game.
Brad is incapable of making Sandbox games for some reason
And I'll never understand the need for threadmillers at all... It's just.. stupid..
So, no, it's not even close to sandbox.
As for the "What is a sandbox" discussion;
There are two types of MMO's (Being different from regular games speaking of which) Sandbox and Threadmill
Threadmill refers to a game where you level up a specific pre-choosen class (Adventure or Crafting, doesn't matter) and is unable to change. Hence being stuck in a threadmill. Known examples of Threadmills: WoW, EQ series (And with that Vanguard), SWG in its current state, Anarchy Online, CoX, Lineage
Sandbox refers to a game where you toss your character around and more or less do whatever you want with it, change skills around and so forth. Sandbox games mainly do not have classes. Known examples of Sandboxes: EVE Online, (Saga of) Ryzom, Ultima Online
To sum it up: Threadmills have a cap, Sandboxes don't
While all MMO's can be considered Sandboxes in the general term, we do make a difference between them in the MMO community as there's a huge difference between the two.
I hope this helps you a little bit further on your quest to understand.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW... It all sucked.
So Thamoris lemme see if i got this right: if your character has, at any given time, the option to explore, quest, farm, craft, role-play, etc., then that constitutes a sandbox game? Could you please elaborate then on what you think is NOT a sandbox game? Because it sounds to me that by your very own estimation, just about every MMO out there is a sandbox style game. Don't get me wrong, i'm not tryin to flame. I would just like to know what you think the difference is, and perhaps even give us an example?
No the game doesnt appear from what I seen to be a sandbox. Its got levels and linear progression as opposed to picking a development path and following it till an new junction. (Think EVE skills.. where the kiddies all go for gunnery skills and no miing or industry or things like that)
Most of the world is empty and server population is low so player interction and exploring is also poor. Big part of Eve is its server population and PC driven and generated markets.
I will say that maybe compared to WoW on a sliding scale there is more sandbox elements. Not much but some.
Comments
IMO besides EVE and UO vanguard is more a sandbox game then the rest of the current MMOS even SWG today. In vanguard there is a plathora of races and classes to choose from each with their own background and uniqueness not the current 7-9 classes. Vanguard allows one to be a adventurer, crafter, diplomat anything they wanna be. MMorpgs today are wayyyy to linear, while play vanguard for the first time it felt epic, it didnt feel linear and that in my opinion is a sandbox.
You could have 1,000 classes and not have a sandbox game. Sandboxes give you a broad choice all along, not just on the day of character creation.
You CAN have classes and levels and still have a sandbox, but most games that have them are not (and this includes VG).
Here's how they differ:
Sandbox: At each level you get, say, "skill points" that can be put into any skill of your choosing. Rolemaster (in pen and paper) is a perfect example of this - any class can learn any skill using the skill points you get at each level. The only difference among the classes is how much it costs to buy the skill. So, for example, a wizard can learn to use a sword just as well as a fighter, but it would take more skill points to do it (and he'd probably have to sacrifice spell casting in exchange).
Linear: At each level, you get a pre-defined set of skills or abilities based on your class/race. The classic example of this is 1st edition AD&D, where there were no "skills", and all the choices had been made for you by the designers. A wizard ("magic-user" back then) could only use a dagger or a staff as a weapon... forget Gandalf wielding a sword -- not allowed in first edition AD&D. A Paladin got exactly this spell at level 8 and that spell at level 10. All level 20 Paladins therefore had 100% identical abilities -- the only option was which weapon you used (sword, mace, etc) and so on. This is NOT a sandbox style, because you cannot choose which abilities or skills or what have you to give your character over time.
In a sandbox game, you design the character as it grows, over time. In a linear game, you "buy into" a pre-ordained design for the character on day 1, when you select the class.
Vanguard is definitely in the "Linear" category, not sandbox. If you play a Shaman, you automatically "buy into" all the Shaman abilities and skills, and you gain them at the same level as every other Shaman. The same is true of Paladin, Monk, and all other classes. Even within Monk, for example, there is the illusion of choosing a fighting style -- drunken, etc. But other than "stances" which just affect your to-hit and damage totals, the moves do not change... My Harmonious Body monk learned all the moves, at the same level as all the other monks, thus she could do drunken punches and harmonious dodges and whatever. Again, it was all pre-mapped-out for me by the developers -- "at level 1 you get punch A, at level 3 you get kick B, at level 9 you get dodge C" and so on -- and all I was doing was "connecting the dots" by gaining levels.
In a Sandbox game, those choices would have been left up to me as a player.
C
I've had more fun playing with medieval tabletop miniatures in my niece's sandbox than playing V:SoH. But that's just me...
You can do all of that except diplomacy in WoW.
You can only do as much as you want in VG within the restrictions of your class and level. Vangaurd is not a sandbox game at all. Saga of Ryzom is a perfect example of what defines a classic sandbox game. You are not restricted by class levels and you can learn any skill you want in the game when you want. Sorry but the EQ1 model of class based and level based game play that is seen in Vanguard removes it from being a sandbox game.
Also the game world may be large but it is completely static! Go play SoR and experience the seasons in that game and the social interactions between the fauna and flora and NPCs and PC players in SoR and you'll understand how static the world in VG really is IMHO.
The guild interactions and events are what determine the flow of the game in SoR and are what shape the world's landscape but in VG it's all NPC driven content that is dependent on the developer to dish out. A true sandbox game is a game that is primarily driven by the players themselves and npc content is not a major factor in the game play. Also the bulk of this game content is already in place in the game world for sandbox game. Constant expansions are not needed aside from creating more options to grant players more abilities to interact with each other and the game environment.
I was in SoR beta. I did not like that game. I prefer the old school fantasy role play setting ....and don't consider the structure of character advancement to be a part of whether it is a sandbox game or now.Think about the real life comparison of a sandbox. Take a kid and put them in the sandbox...does the sandbox cease to be a sandbox once someone starts playing in it?....no
Our characters are that kid playing in a sandbox...and the way the kid grows and developes has nothing to do with a sandbox. It's still a sandbox no matter who plays in it. You are refering to the " who " part....I am refering to the actual sandbox in the context that it was meant to be used.
Vanguard IS the sandbox....YOU are the kid ( person ) playing in it.
You be a lv 1 ..or lv 50 or..no levels at all...Vanguard is still just the sandbox.
I think a sandbox should be very very dynamic. Character development is key, and you don't have variety within the same class in VG, so this one is out. A sandbox reacts to the actions of players, how does VG react (other then servers merging where there is not enough meat). A sandbox has player driven economy (at least partially). A sandbox presents choices at every turn, which simply is not possible with the hard coded game that VG is. Everything is set in stone. I mean, what purpose does having 50 levels have, and all the huge spaces that VG has, if you are unable to change (changing being the very premise of a sandbox)?
It's the newest marketing excuse. Calling VG a sandbox is a fence for all of it's shortcomings on oh so many levels.
You are entitled to use whatever definition you want, of course. But you have to realize this is not going to satisfy most other people on the thread. Since almost everyone else BUT you considers the structure of character advancement to be crucial to whether a game is a sandbox or not, what you have basically done is change the definition of a sandbox as we have been using it on this thread and then said, "Vanguard is one." This is equivalent to me changing the definition of the color blue to be what everyone else calls "green" and then saying, "See, the grass is blue."
Again, you're certainly free to do that if you wish, but don't expect to convince the rest of us that grass is blue by arbitrarily defining it however you feel like.
Sandbox games are about freedom... about lack of restrictions. Vanguard has some of that, which is why I said it was a sandbox wannabe... But. it's not a true sandbox like Ryzom or pre-CU SWG were. If yo u can't understand the difference then, well... there's no point in discussing it further.
C
You are entitled to use whatever definition you want, of course. But you have to realize this is not going to satisfy most other people on the thread. Since almost everyone else BUT you considers the structure of character advancement to be crucial to whether a game is a sandbox or not, what you have basically done is change the definition of a sandbox as we have been using it on this thread and then said, "Vanguard is one." This is equivalent to me changing the definition of the color blue to be what everyone else calls "green" and then saying, "See, the grass is blue."
Again, you're certainly free to do that if you wish, but don't expect to convince the rest of us that grass is blue by arbitrarily defining it however you feel like.
Sandbox games are about freedom... about lack of restrictions. Vanguard has some of that, which is why I said it was a sandbox wannabe... But. it's not a true sandbox like Ryzom or pre-CU SWG were. If yo u can't understand the difference then, well... there's no point in discussing it further.
C
If I would say "Vanguard is not a sandbox MMO" that doesn't mean that I did say "Vanguard is a sandbox MMO".
No one would say that blue is green.
So aslong for tha grass, different shades of green. Are we talking about grass as in a lawn that could stretch from green-brown to green-yellow. But then again... It's only the definition "true" that is importartant.
What is a true MMORPG in first place.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
You can do all of that except diplomacy in WoW.
I was in SoR beta. I did not like that game. I prefer the old school fantasy role play setting ....and don't consider the structure of character advancement to be a part of whether it is a sandbox game or now.By definition, a sandbox does not put ANY limitations on what you can do. You can be
architect AND engineer AND artist. Once you choose a class in Vanguard or WoW,
your choice of abilities are immediately limited. A mage can not heal, a monk can
not nuke, a priest can not backstab. In games that are considered sandboxes (such
as Oblivion), there are no such restrictions. A rogue can heal, a mage can backstab,
a priest can use hand to hand combat and summon a pet. What is trying to be conveyed
with the term "sandbox" is that once you choose a class, you do not also inherit a bunch
of limitations.
Think about the real life comparison of a sandbox. Take a kid and put them in the sandbox...does the sandbox cease to be a sandbox once someone starts playing in it?....no
Indeed the child does not cease to be a child. However once he destroys a building,
he does not cease being an architect.
Our characters are that kid playing in a sandbox...and the way the kid grows and developes has nothing to do with a sandbox. It's still a sandbox no matter who plays in it. You are refering to the " who " part....I am refering to the actual sandbox in the context that it was meant to be used.
No the sandbox doesn't change but the child has no limitations on what he can do in
that sandbox once he decides to create something.
Vanguard IS the sandbox....YOU are the kid ( person ) playing in it.
Look again at the Wiki characteristics of a game that is considered to be a sandbox :
"Just as a real-world sandbox can be smoothed out and resculpted again and again, so the sandbox game or game mode can be played and explored repeatedly without a linear "plot" or a particular set of expectations, nor any lasting game-play consequences".
The point they are trying to make is that in a true sandbox, a pally can use guns or
bows and arrows, stealth, have pets, and nuke. In other words there are NO weapon
or attack style consequences from choosing to be a paladin. Since MMOs typically
design classes to be interdependent, it is highly unlikely that an MMO will truly be a
sandbox.
You be a lv 1 ..or lv 50 or..no levels at all...Vanguard is still just the sandbox.
But once you choose to be a paladin, you can not stealth, nuke or use guns. That is
what prevents Vanguard from being a true sandbox.
I voted Vanguard is the ultimate sandbox, but that's only assuming you have more cats than players...
Meow!
I like Vanguard, but...
IMO you cant have a sandbox game without the option of pvp.
Dunno whaty the hell is a sandbox, some sort of box for sandpaper?. Anyway i tick already and it too late to answer my question!.
I've read most of the posts here and still disagree with many of the posters.
Sandbox gameplay refers to what one DOES in game or CAN DO in a game ...NOT how one developes as a character. That is called .. character developement.
Vanguard is a sandbox game because there is no linear line of gameplay. You can adventure, harvest, craft...whatever...whenever you want.
Character developement has nothing to do with sandbox gameplay.
Take the real life analogy....of a real life sandbox.....what a person is wearing or how they develope while playing in a sandbox has absolutely no effect on whether they are playing in a sandbox or not.
Vanguard is the sandbox. Character developement is just that...character developement...independant of sandbox playstyle. Unlike WoW and many other mmo's that use mountains and other such geopgraphical features to control where one goes...Vanguard allows a player to go any place they can see.....whether you are lv 1 or lv 50 ...have 5 skills or 100 skills....that has nothing to do with sandbox gameplay.
To me...and according to Wiki....Vanguard ( and other games like it ) says.." here is your world.( sandbox)..heres a bunch of toys.( quests, xp and such ) ..now jump in and see what you can make".
I don't see how the number options the actual character gets in it's leveling process has anything to do with playing a game in a sandbox type world. To me that is about character developement...not sandbox gameplay.
By your definition, Thamoris, WoW is also a sandbox. Cool, I get new information form you all the time!
Vanguard a sandbox?
Then eq2 and wow and other eq clones are also sandboxes.
VG is EQ3 more or less,
and hence, a threadmill game.
Brad is incapable of making Sandbox games for some reason
And I'll never understand the need for threadmillers at all...
It's just.. stupid..
So, no, it's not even close to sandbox.
As for the "What is a sandbox" discussion;
There are two types of MMO's (Being different from regular games speaking of which)
Sandbox
and Threadmill
Threadmill refers to a game where you level up a specific pre-choosen class (Adventure or Crafting, doesn't matter) and is unable to change. Hence being stuck in a threadmill.
Known examples of Threadmills: WoW, EQ series (And with that Vanguard), SWG in its current state, Anarchy Online, CoX, Lineage
Sandbox refers to a game where you toss your character around and more or less do whatever you want with it, change skills around and so forth. Sandbox games mainly do not have classes.
Known examples of Sandboxes: EVE Online, (Saga of) Ryzom, Ultima Online
To sum it up: Threadmills have a cap, Sandboxes don't
While all MMO's can be considered Sandboxes in the general term, we do make a difference between them in the MMO community as there's a huge difference between the two.
I hope this helps you a little bit further on your quest to understand.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
So Thamoris lemme see if i got this right: if your character has, at any given time, the option to explore, quest, farm, craft, role-play, etc., then that constitutes a sandbox game? Could you please elaborate then on what you think is NOT a sandbox game? Because it sounds to me that by your very own estimation, just about every MMO out there is a sandbox style game. Don't get me wrong, i'm not tryin to flame. I would just like to know what you think the difference is, and perhaps even give us an example?
No the game doesnt appear from what I seen to be a sandbox. Its got levels and linear progression as opposed to picking a development path and following it till an new junction. (Think EVE skills.. where the kiddies all go for gunnery skills and no miing or industry or things like that)
Most of the world is empty and server population is low so player interction and exploring is also poor. Big part of Eve is its server population and PC driven and generated markets.
I will say that maybe compared to WoW on a sliding scale there is more sandbox elements. Not much but some.