I prefer a game where the ingame market is run by players not money.
if you sell something expensive then i have choice by either buy it or leave it, i dont feel buying gold outside the game is good.
Also i think you do make a abvoius choice when you are paying a monthly payment if you didnt like the game you could just stop playing.
There is no god giving right that says you can take a shortcut just because you like it and as long gaming companies doesnt like it or dont allow buying gold outside the game i will always say its worse to allow gold farmers than it is to disallow them.
Of course some companies choice ingame item market etc but thats within the game .
did asian farmers exist on the hardcore UO Servers back in the day? No? I rest my point. Self regulated
Hmmm, did I pods exist back in the day? No? I rest my point!
And my statement makes *exactly* as much sense as yours did. The concept of gold farming simply hadn't been thought of yet back then ( although there was plenty of duping to inflate the economy, which oddly, the players didn't regulate! Go figure! ), it had *zero* to do with player regulation.
You made a weak, weak arguement. Logical debate is not your strong point..........
Okay come on its common sense. On a PVE Server its -much- easier to accrue wealth. On a Full PVP Server with Looting (no safe zones) you will have a much harder time trying to accrue wealth + its expendable due to high chances of losing it. Additionally, your items will not be worth much of anything because they can be stolen in the blink of an eye. Simple A-B-C. Especially if we're talking bout item decay.
now maybe you can sell a max level character but if permadeath existed in some form that would curb that too
right now I play Starport you know how many Asian Farmers I've seen? ZERO. Because we can rob the blind and take everything they got
The thing is, I have yet to see anyone explain -- in a coherent fashion -- why exactly these gold farmers are a threat to a specific game. I've seen a lot of posts on this subject that boil down to "Well, they're ruining the game" or "this game would be better without them" without any actual evidence as to how this ruination is taking effect. Seems to me that the only serious trouble they cause is that their existence it gives people something to piss and moan about, and creates a convenient target for group aggression.
Kind of reminds me of the old rednecks I grew up around here in the South: "Those darn (insert minority here)! Everything was fine until they moved in!" But when pressed to explain exactly how things are worse because of that, you get the standard answers about crime and lowered property values... even if such things aren't actually happening. Turns out it's just the age-old human habit of finding the easy target (one that everyone else is heaping abuse on) and going with the flow.
I played UO during it prime during its launch days Val and there were gold farmers..were they asian? I have no idea but they were there with their wizards moing down dragons repeatedly and selling gold off websites long before the shard split and long after. And way before the hardcore server came up. Are they there still? Probably but not in a large fashion considering the game is super ancient.
God if you dont know the truth don't spout half truths. I was there I've been around since Mud days, UO was my first MMO. I had to resort to buying gold in the end and you know what? I quit a month later because there was nothing else to do. I've never once ever bought gold again after that.
Player wars in UO killed that game. It was fine at first but the it just got down right impossible for new players or even casual playesr to enjoy and the game sank. (course EA buying it sank it further). Self Regulation doesnt' do a damn thing for games ever.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I played UO during it prime during its launch days Val and there were gold farmers..were they asian? I have no idea but they were there with their wizards moing down dragons repeatedly and selling gold off websites long before the shard split and long after. And way before the hardcore server came up. Are they there still? Probably but not in a large fashion considering the game is super ancient.
God if you dont know the truth don't spout half truths. I was there I've been around since Mud days, UO was my first MMO. I had to resort to buying gold in the end and you know what? I quit a month later because there was nothing else to do. I've never once ever bought gold again after that. Player wars in UO killed that game. It was fine at first but the it just got down right impossible for new players or even casual playesr to enjoy and the game sank. (course EA buying it sank it further). Self Regulation doesnt' do a damn thing for games ever.
not sure why you pay for gold when you can just take it but I guess some people are meant to be victims while the rest of us strategize, reduce our risks, team, and steamroll
I do believe I did say Full PVP no safe zones. that means no safe banks. let those get robbed too like in Starport. of course I play on the permadeath server so no way farmers could ever make money there
edit- Vajuras has never paid for gold, never will.
btw Guild Wars I beleive doesnt suffer from this issue its just the loot whoring type of games. but I am sure someone will try to counter with an excuse about that too?
... And as far as how much time a person spends playing, a lot of that is based on how a person wants to use the 24 hours available to them. Guess what, you have the same 24 hours that everyone else on this planet does!
Thank you dcb, glad someone else said what I was thinking.
I never accepted gold farming in any game, never have, never will.
It’s cheating pure and simple, and I’m simply amazed at how many excuses people come up with to try to justify it.
However, it’s just goes with the common mentality of today’s world. Cheating is the norm, and if you aren’t trying to skirt the system in some way, you’re doing something wrong and considered “old-school” (whatever the hell that means), or out of it.
The whole “we’re just trying to catch up” argument, wears really thin.
Let’s say I play in Darts tournaments, and I practice at the game 6 hours a day, and you practice at the game 2 hours a day. You see me somehow as “cheating”, and you need to use your money to “catch up” to me, which by the way, is never the case, because the gold buyers always seem to have a ton more than anyone would get through regular play. Anyway, when it comes time to play in the tournament against each other, we each are given 5 darts to throw, however, you see it proper to pay someone to give you 3 extra darts to throw at the board. So I have 5 darts, you have 8 darts, and all because you feel I’ve practiced more than you did and feel deprived in some way.
Well, like I said, many of you feel this is perfectly normal, and with today’s line of thinking, sadly, you may be correct.
As a side note, the in-game gold advertisement from these idiots completely destroys the mood of the game for me. They should all be drawn and quartered…but I digress.
I hate to admit it but I agree with everything stated in the article. I do not use RMT, and actually find myself playing mmorpgs a lot less than I used to. Simply because these games are no longer entertaining. Grinding endlessly for some people may be entertainment. For many others it is nothing but hell. While some people demand less and less from their games and the developers that create them I personally have basically hung up my mmorpg boots. If you think you are better than someone else because you can spend 7 hours a day at the timbermaw camp being a mindless automaton, and paying for the privilege on top of it, well... more power to ya.
Hatred of the buyers of RMT are nothing but jealous because their parents won't fork over the cash rofl. It's like being jealous because someone shows up at the golf course with a brand new set of callaways while you are stuck there with your walmart specials.
i spent a great deal of time ruining gold farmers income in EVE - if they are paid by results anyway
initially it was a lot of fun but it became a job of policing my mining area - not so much fun any more
one of the big reasons i left the game was i couldn't find a place in EVE (in safe space anyway) to mine for the "good stuff" that wasn't already crowded with farmers (and by that i mean macroers) - considering how huge EVE is i thought that was really something
so no - i don't like gold farming but i despise gold buyers much, much more
Either play the game, or play the stock market. The only thing real cash should be used for in a MMORPG is the subscription fee. I don't agree at all with the idea that buying in-game currency is a matter of convenience comparable to using high speed internet over dial-up. That's just stupid. Why don't be just give basketball players points for cash instead of relying on their ability to get the ball through the hoop? Or perhaps football players can pay to gain yards instead of actually rushing for them? Gold selling is an EULA/TOS violation in most games, and purchasing gold is pathetic. I don't care how much anyone wants to try and rationalize it... it's lame. PLAY the game, don't pay your way through it.
While I agree with your feelings in general, you're using a bad analogy with the sports. It's not a real life player's gear that gets them hoops or more yards, it's their skill and teamwork. That's something that can't be purchased. People buy gold to get better gear in loot-based games. In a skill-based game (such as GW), more gold doesn't give you an in-game advantage so I don't really see a problem with it in that situation.
... And as far as how much time a person spends playing, a lot of that is based on how a person wants to use the 24 hours available to them. Guess what, you have the same 24 hours that everyone else on this planet does!
Thank you dcb, glad someone else said what I was thinking.
I never accepted gold farming in any game, never have, never will.
It’s cheating pure and simple, and I’m simply amazed at how many excuses people come up with to try to justify it.
However, it’s just goes with the common mentality of today’s world. Cheating is the norm, and if you aren’t trying to skirt the system in some way, you’re doing something wrong and considered “old-school” (whatever the hell that means), or out of it.
The whole “we’re just trying to catch up” argument, wears really thin.
Let’s say I play in Darts tournaments, and I practice at the game 6 hours a day, and you practice at the game 2 hours a day. You see me somehow as “cheating”, and you need to use your money to “catch up” to me, which by the way, is never the case, because the gold buyers always seem to have a ton more than anyone would get through regular play. Anyway, when it comes time to play in the tournament against each other, we each are given 5 darts to throw, however, you see it proper to pay someone to give you 3 extra darts to throw at the board. So I have 5 darts, you have 8 darts, and all because you feel I’ve practiced more than you did and feel deprived in some way.
Well, like I said, many of you feel this is perfectly normal, and with today’s line of thinking, sadly, you may be correct.
As a side note, the in-game gold advertisement from these idiots completely destroys the mood of the game for me. They should all be drawn and quartered…but I digress.
Mindlessly grinding for hours to get x amount of virtual coin does not make you any more skilled than anyone else. If you think it does you are completely and totally delusional. And your vehemence against it shows this, not to mention your complete inability to rationally argue a case. If ANY of these time wasting shallow excuses for games actually involved any amount of skill then person A who buys all his virtual currency would suck and not be a threat to you. However, that is not the case. These games cater more to the gear > skill mentality. Therefor anyone with more money than you is a threat.
In the real world, sure, if you can practice throwing darts for 6 hours a day you will gain the skill to beat someone else. That isn't cheating. If you are using the house darts and someone comes up to throw against you with a custom made set of uber darts does that make him a cheat? No. Is it cheating that my girlfriend comes from money and her parents not only paid her tuition but also housing and everything else while I had to work 2 jobs? No it is not.
there is very simple solution to gold-farmers problem. remove tradeable gold/items from the game. now, whoever want to counter that it isn't realistic, it's not supposed to be. it's a game.
there is very simple solution to gold-farmers problem. remove tradeable gold/items from the game. now, whoever want to counter that it isn't realistic, it's not supposed to be. it's a game.
Good solution. So simple, it's scary. Although, take WoW for example, some items are that way already. Make all items non-tradable, including gold. Problem solved. Of course, this will never, ever happen.
When a person subscribes to an MMOG, he agrees to adhere to certain rules, and in return he has certain expectations from the game.
For many players, those expectations include the notion that all players will be on equal footing within the parameters of the game. One expects to have roughly the same opportunity for advancement as any other player, with only time, effort, and skill as the limiting factors.
Trading gold and items for real-world cash completely breaks that covenant. No longer are time, effort, and skill the determiners of in-game opportunity. Now real-world money is not just a factor, but potentially the biggest factor of them all.
This is not such a big deal, in and of itself. As many have pointed out, the game does not come with the guarantee that one player is entitled to loot as phat as that of his neighbor. Especially in a PvE world, no one should (theoretically) have to keep up with the Jonses.
However, there are two aspects of MMOGs that these arguments ignore. One is the very real, if unfortunate, problem of discrimination. There are games where, if a player does not wear the proper equipment, that player can have a hard time finding groups. This is admittedly a ridiculous problem, but it does exist and therefore bears mention.
The more important matter by far is the in-game market. Some people dismiss inflation as inevitable, something all players will eventually have to deal with, but this argument misses the real problem caused by gold farming. When a player buys in-game currency and spends it at the in-game auction house, he robs the non-cheating player of the opportunity at the same rare item. People who believe in following the spirit of the game are no longer able to experience portions of the game they would normally be able to, had the gold-buyer not cheated the system.
Once again, this breaks the covenant of all players being on equal footing. Believe it or not, there are people who cannot afford to buy gold. And there are those who can afford to buy it but choose not to. Neither of these groups should be excluded from the chance at a good item for failure to invest additional real-world resources into the game. Where once the game was a place to escape from the inequities of real life, now the less well-off are yet again marginalized by the wealthy.
You may argue that gold farmers are merely putting forth the same effort anyone else would in order to obtain the gold, and this justifies the sale of that gold and the subsequent use of that gold to edge out legitimate players. This is a fallacy! The difference is that gold farmers are only able to spend their time farming because it supports their real-world existence. For legitimate players, it is the opposite: they must give up real-world time and resources in order to play the game. This is NOT the same as one player having more free time than another. Gold farmers effectively have unlimited free time, and furthermore, they have the organizational backing of an entire company. There is simply no way a legitimate player can keep up with that.
So it becomes a matter of, cave in to the gold-selling machine or suck it up and deal with a second-class existence. Unless, of course the developer/publisher intervenes.
That's a terrible solution, actually, if you want to maintain a multiplayer / user shared world. Trading items and buying and selling from other players is a huge part of the MMO enironvment. Take that out of the equation completely and you will lose a bg aspect of what makes it 'multiplayer'. Multiplayer does not simply mean that multiple people are playing alongside eachother. They must be able to interact with eachother on multiple levels - one of those levels being the trading of items and money.
Suggesting that an mmo game would still be just as successful without tradeable items or money is no different than suggesting an mmo game would be just as successful without grouping, or without chat, etc. It's a part of what makes it an mmo game.
Yes, it would solve the problem. But it would do far more damage than it prevents.
Rules and laws are made for the fairness of everyone. Giving special consideration because of sob stories is irresponsible and unfair to everyone else.
Gamers and in turn game companies have voiced their opinion against gold farming. Thousands upon thousands of banned accounts across many games is proof of this. Yes, when I was 18-25 I would have “worked” for real money to play video games. The problem is not the farmers behind the computer but the people paying the farmers: The gamers that buy the gold and those that physically put money into the farmer’s hand. The only way to make everyone happy is for each game to create a gold buying/selling server ala the Bazaar server in EQ2. I’m sure the subscription hit of said banned accounts would more than pay for the server(s).
Dan... you're posting a flamebait in the format of a glorified forum post... one that has about as much depth as the industry you defend... you make horrible arguments that wouldn't stand a a second in a real debate... you ignore entire lines of reasoning by claiming you simply do not understand them...
What you need is a single player RPG where you enter cheat codes... get max amount of money and not even have to spend real life money for it. If you really need other people to gawk at what your pathetic cheating got you... make a vid and put it on youtube or put your game saves online.
Your "articles" commend very little respect.
Why don't you go and actually play an MMO rather than pathetically spend your bread winning on someone to do it for you?
It'll help in writing ABOUT em.
You know what cheating is and you know you're doing it when you buy gold from someone. You figure it's like twinking your lowbie friend but paying for it. It's not that you don't understand where the cheating it... it's just that you don't feel bad when you do it. If you don't feel bad... surely it can't be negatively labeled!
It's like paying the scalper or downloading music online. Many people do it and don't feel bad. Doesn't mean it's not illegal.
You just to a crap, tell people to talk about it and think your job is done.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Nothing good will come of a discussion based on flamebait.
"Okay come on its common sense. On a PVE Server its -much- easier to accrue wealth. On a Full PVP Server with Looting (no safe zones) you will have a much harder time trying to accrue wealth + its expendable due to high chances of losing it. Additionally, your items will not be worth much of anything because they can be stolen in the blink of an eye. Simple A-B-C. Especially if we're talking bout item decay."
I'm all for killing farmers to solve farming problems and since I wouldn't play a non-PvP game for more than a couple minutes, that is never a problem!
Since world PvP was killed in WoW with "battlegrounds", I used to take my rogue to Tyr's Hand or other popular farming locations to, um...farm killing farmers! There is nothing quite like the joy of killing 3 farmers with a single rogue...as many times as you want because 1. They tend to be terrible at PvP. 2. They tend to not give up. and 3. ...did I mention it's fun?! :P
I think what it really comes down to is haves vs. have nots, In this case time vs money. One lesson I have learne din life is that people will take their position on protecting their own advantage and interests first. People that generally support gold selling and buying probably bought gold at some point and lack the time to invest but have money to blow. People that don't probably have more time to put in and gain their advantage and don't want to lose that, lack money, or interest in paying anymore real $$$ for a game. So in the end people that have little money and a huge time advantage, probably feel the most shafted and will be most passionate about this issue.
One more thing, the EULA argument in a theory could be challanged, game making companies don't frown on gold selling because of some great ethical stand, they basicaly don't want someone else making money off their game. A company take SOE just for an example would happily remove that EULA when they institute their own model for selling gold.
Gold farming is a generic term that doesn't just apply to the image of some poor hard working Asian slaving away day and night to scratch out an existence.
Gold farming also includes key loggers and the like who are the majority source of bought and sold currency in many games.
It may not shut down an entire mmorpg but it certainly can for individual players in these games.
I think Dan is ultimatly right. I dont cry for these people, they make a rediculous amount of money. If they're living in poverty, it's due to their own ignorance and inability to control basic economics.
I've been on both sides of the fence, I've bought and sold ingame currency in many games. It can be either a prophitable experience, or a great jumpstart at a new game. Just imagine the start on the jedi grind when you're pimping 10m? I did this pre-cu SWG, and it helped IMMENSLY. Does it make me a bad person? Hell no, it just means I value my time ingame more than I value my IRL money. I worked hard for it, so why not put it to use that could save me hours, days, weeks even?
Originally posted by Tweakee
How about making a game that doesn't reward mindless, monotonous, unskilled labor as gameplay?
I think you're thinking in the right direction, the problem is that no MMO Developer has the time, effort, energy, foresight, ability, etc to create something like that. All MMOs are ultimatly coorporate creations... there is no love, and all will change depending on the influence it has on the amount of incomming money (Read: SWG)
In the light of this conversation, I cant help but bring up Entropia Universe. It has embraced a middle ground. That is a game that does not have gold farmers, there's no point, because they hold all the chips. They control the economy to the decimal point, so why waste time in nonsense like gold selling?
I believe this is the future of MMO gaming, where everything you do has a monetary consequence, and the developer ultimatly holds all the keys. What better way to squeeze every penny out of a player if he has no idea you're controlling his every action?
Comments
I prefer a game where the ingame market is run by players not money.
if you sell something expensive then i have choice by either buy it or leave it, i dont feel buying gold outside the game is good.
Also i think you do make a abvoius choice when you are paying a monthly payment if you didnt like the game you could just stop playing.
There is no god giving right that says you can take a shortcut just because you like it and as long gaming companies doesnt like it or dont allow buying gold outside the game i will always say its worse to allow gold farmers than it is to disallow them.
Of course some companies choice ingame item market etc but thats within the game .
-Semper ubi sub ubi!
always wear underwear
Hmmm, did I pods exist back in the day? No? I rest my point!
And my statement makes *exactly* as much sense as yours did. The concept of gold farming simply hadn't been thought of yet back then ( although there was plenty of duping to inflate the economy, which oddly, the players didn't regulate! Go figure! ), it had *zero* to do with player regulation.
You made a weak, weak arguement. Logical debate is not your strong point..........
Okay come on its common sense. On a PVE Server its -much- easier to accrue wealth. On a Full PVP Server with Looting (no safe zones) you will have a much harder time trying to accrue wealth + its expendable due to high chances of losing it. Additionally, your items will not be worth much of anything because they can be stolen in the blink of an eye. Simple A-B-C. Especially if we're talking bout item decay.
now maybe you can sell a max level character but if permadeath existed in some form that would curb that too
right now I play Starport you know how many Asian Farmers I've seen? ZERO. Because we can rob the blind and take everything they got
The thing is, I have yet to see anyone explain -- in a coherent fashion -- why exactly these gold farmers are a threat to a specific game. I've seen a lot of posts on this subject that boil down to "Well, they're ruining the game" or "this game would be better without them" without any actual evidence as to how this ruination is taking effect. Seems to me that the only serious trouble they cause is that their existence it gives people something to piss and moan about, and creates a convenient target for group aggression.
Kind of reminds me of the old rednecks I grew up around here in the South: "Those darn (insert minority here)! Everything was fine until they moved in!" But when pressed to explain exactly how things are worse because of that, you get the standard answers about crime and lowered property values... even if such things aren't actually happening. Turns out it's just the age-old human habit of finding the easy target (one that everyone else is heaping abuse on) and going with the flow.
I played UO during it prime during its launch days Val and there were gold farmers..were they asian? I have no idea but they were there with their wizards moing down dragons repeatedly and selling gold off websites long before the shard split and long after. And way before the hardcore server came up. Are they there still? Probably but not in a large fashion considering the game is super ancient.
God if you dont know the truth don't spout half truths. I was there I've been around since Mud days, UO was my first MMO. I had to resort to buying gold in the end and you know what? I quit a month later because there was nothing else to do. I've never once ever bought gold again after that.
Player wars in UO killed that game. It was fine at first but the it just got down right impossible for new players or even casual playesr to enjoy and the game sank. (course EA buying it sank it further). Self Regulation doesnt' do a damn thing for games ever.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
not sure why you pay for gold when you can just take it but I guess some people are meant to be victims while the rest of us strategize, reduce our risks, team, and steamroll
I do believe I did say Full PVP no safe zones. that means no safe banks. let those get robbed too like in Starport. of course I play on the permadeath server so no way farmers could ever make money there
edit- Vajuras has never paid for gold, never will.
One of the problems is that the american kids playing get their first look at a foriegn culture. What they see is:
1. Opportunistic
2. Unhelpfull
3. Silent
4. Pushy
Thats a real good first look at the Chinese.
btw Guild Wars I beleive doesnt suffer from this issue its just the loot whoring type of games. but I am sure someone will try to counter with an excuse about that too?
I hate to admit it but I agree with everything stated in the article. I do not use RMT, and actually find myself playing mmorpgs a lot less than I used to. Simply because these games are no longer entertaining. Grinding endlessly for some people may be entertainment. For many others it is nothing but hell. While some people demand less and less from their games and the developers that create them I personally have basically hung up my mmorpg boots. If you think you are better than someone else because you can spend 7 hours a day at the timbermaw camp being a mindless automaton, and paying for the privilege on top of it, well... more power to ya.
Hatred of the buyers of RMT are nothing but jealous because their parents won't fork over the cash rofl. It's like being jealous because someone shows up at the golf course with a brand new set of callaways while you are stuck there with your walmart specials.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
i spent a great deal of time ruining gold farmers income in EVE - if they are paid by results anyway
initially it was a lot of fun but it became a job of policing my mining area - not so much fun any more
one of the big reasons i left the game was i couldn't find a place in EVE (in safe space anyway) to mine for the "good stuff" that wasn't already crowded with farmers (and by that i mean macroers) - considering how huge EVE is i thought that was really something
so no - i don't like gold farming but i despise gold buyers much, much more
While I agree with your feelings in general, you're using a bad analogy with the sports. It's not a real life player's gear that gets them hoops or more yards, it's their skill and teamwork. That's something that can't be purchased. People buy gold to get better gear in loot-based games. In a skill-based game (such as GW), more gold doesn't give you an in-game advantage so I don't really see a problem with it in that situation.
Mindlessly grinding for hours to get x amount of virtual coin does not make you any more skilled than anyone else. If you think it does you are completely and totally delusional. And your vehemence against it shows this, not to mention your complete inability to rationally argue a case. If ANY of these time wasting shallow excuses for games actually involved any amount of skill then person A who buys all his virtual currency would suck and not be a threat to you. However, that is not the case. These games cater more to the gear > skill mentality. Therefor anyone with more money than you is a threat.
In the real world, sure, if you can practice throwing darts for 6 hours a day you will gain the skill to beat someone else. That isn't cheating. If you are using the house darts and someone comes up to throw against you with a custom made set of uber darts does that make him a cheat? No. Is it cheating that my girlfriend comes from money and her parents not only paid her tuition but also housing and everything else while I had to work 2 jobs? No it is not.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
A completely pathetic rationalization.
"While I'm on the topic, I also find it strange how some can see RMT as cheating."
Get a dictionary and master the English language.
Cheat: "To violate rules deliberately, as in a game".
Rules for MMORPGs consist of such things as EULAs, TOCs, COCs, and so forth.
there is very simple solution to gold-farmers problem. remove tradeable gold/items from the game. now, whoever want to counter that it isn't realistic, it's not supposed to be. it's a game.
Good solution. So simple, it's scary. Although, take WoW for example, some items are that way already. Make all items non-tradable, including gold. Problem solved. Of course, this will never, ever happen.
How gold farming hurts the game
When a person subscribes to an MMOG, he agrees to adhere to certain rules, and in return he has certain expectations from the game.
For many players, those expectations include the notion that all players will be on equal footing within the parameters of the game. One expects to have roughly the same opportunity for advancement as any other player, with only time, effort, and skill as the limiting factors.
Trading gold and items for real-world cash completely breaks that covenant. No longer are time, effort, and skill the determiners of in-game opportunity. Now real-world money is not just a factor, but potentially the biggest factor of them all.
This is not such a big deal, in and of itself. As many have pointed out, the game does not come with the guarantee that one player is entitled to loot as phat as that of his neighbor. Especially in a PvE world, no one should (theoretically) have to keep up with the Jonses.
However, there are two aspects of MMOGs that these arguments ignore. One is the very real, if unfortunate, problem of discrimination. There are games where, if a player does not wear the proper equipment, that player can have a hard time finding groups. This is admittedly a ridiculous problem, but it does exist and therefore bears mention.
The more important matter by far is the in-game market. Some people dismiss inflation as inevitable, something all players will eventually have to deal with, but this argument misses the real problem caused by gold farming. When a player buys in-game currency and spends it at the in-game auction house, he robs the non-cheating player of the opportunity at the same rare item. People who believe in following the spirit of the game are no longer able to experience portions of the game they would normally be able to, had the gold-buyer not cheated the system.
Once again, this breaks the covenant of all players being on equal footing. Believe it or not, there are people who cannot afford to buy gold. And there are those who can afford to buy it but choose not to. Neither of these groups should be excluded from the chance at a good item for failure to invest additional real-world resources into the game. Where once the game was a place to escape from the inequities of real life, now the less well-off are yet again marginalized by the wealthy.
You may argue that gold farmers are merely putting forth the same effort anyone else would in order to obtain the gold, and this justifies the sale of that gold and the subsequent use of that gold to edge out legitimate players. This is a fallacy! The difference is that gold farmers are only able to spend their time farming because it supports their real-world existence. For legitimate players, it is the opposite: they must give up real-world time and resources in order to play the game. This is NOT the same as one player having more free time than another. Gold farmers effectively have unlimited free time, and furthermore, they have the organizational backing of an entire company. There is simply no way a legitimate player can keep up with that.
So it becomes a matter of, cave in to the gold-selling machine or suck it up and deal with a second-class existence. Unless, of course the developer/publisher intervenes.
That's a terrible solution, actually, if you want to maintain a multiplayer / user shared world. Trading items and buying and selling from other players is a huge part of the MMO enironvment. Take that out of the equation completely and you will lose a bg aspect of what makes it 'multiplayer'. Multiplayer does not simply mean that multiple people are playing alongside eachother. They must be able to interact with eachother on multiple levels - one of those levels being the trading of items and money.
Suggesting that an mmo game would still be just as successful without tradeable items or money is no different than suggesting an mmo game would be just as successful without grouping, or without chat, etc. It's a part of what makes it an mmo game.
Yes, it would solve the problem. But it would do far more damage than it prevents.
Just not worth my time anymore.
Hexxeity, you sir, put it more eloqently than I ever could. Well done, I bow to you
Dan... you're posting a flamebait in the format of a glorified forum post... one that has about as much depth as the industry you defend... you make horrible arguments that wouldn't stand a a second in a real debate... you ignore entire lines of reasoning by claiming you simply do not understand them...
What you need is a single player RPG where you enter cheat codes... get max amount of money and not even have to spend real life money for it. If you really need other people to gawk at what your pathetic cheating got you... make a vid and put it on youtube or put your game saves online.
Your "articles" commend very little respect.
Why don't you go and actually play an MMO rather than pathetically spend your bread winning on someone to do it for you?
It'll help in writing ABOUT em.
You know what cheating is and you know you're doing it when you buy gold from someone. You figure it's like twinking your lowbie friend but paying for it. It's not that you don't understand where the cheating it... it's just that you don't feel bad when you do it. If you don't feel bad... surely it can't be negatively labeled!
It's like paying the scalper or downloading music online. Many people do it and don't feel bad. Doesn't mean it's not illegal.
You just to a crap, tell people to talk about it and think your job is done.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Nothing good will come of a discussion based on flamebait.
"Okay come on its common sense. On a PVE Server its -much- easier to accrue wealth. On a Full PVP Server with Looting (no safe zones) you will have a much harder time trying to accrue wealth + its expendable due to high chances of losing it. Additionally, your items will not be worth much of anything because they can be stolen in the blink of an eye. Simple A-B-C. Especially if we're talking bout item decay."
Now I can believe that statement.
I'm all for killing farmers to solve farming problems and since I wouldn't play a non-PvP game for more than a couple minutes, that is never a problem!
Since world PvP was killed in WoW with "battlegrounds", I used to take my rogue to Tyr's Hand or other popular farming locations to, um...farm killing farmers! There is nothing quite like the joy of killing 3 farmers with a single rogue...as many times as you want because 1. They tend to be terrible at PvP. 2. They tend to not give up. and 3. ...did I mention it's fun?! :P
I think what it really comes down to is haves vs. have nots, In this case time vs money. One lesson I have learne din life is that people will take their position on protecting their own advantage and interests first. People that generally support gold selling and buying probably bought gold at some point and lack the time to invest but have money to blow. People that don't probably have more time to put in and gain their advantage and don't want to lose that, lack money, or interest in paying anymore real $$$ for a game. So in the end people that have little money and a huge time advantage, probably feel the most shafted and will be most passionate about this issue.
One more thing, the EULA argument in a theory could be challanged, game making companies don't frown on gold selling because of some great ethical stand, they basicaly don't want someone else making money off their game. A company take SOE just for an example would happily remove that EULA when they institute their own model for selling gold.
Gold farming is a generic term that doesn't just apply to the image of some poor hard working Asian slaving away day and night to scratch out an existence.
Gold farming also includes key loggers and the like who are the majority source of bought and sold currency in many games.
It may not shut down an entire mmorpg but it certainly can for individual players in these games.
I think Dan is ultimatly right. I dont cry for these people, they make a rediculous amount of money. If they're living in poverty, it's due to their own ignorance and inability to control basic economics.
I've been on both sides of the fence, I've bought and sold ingame currency in many games. It can be either a prophitable experience, or a great jumpstart at a new game. Just imagine the start on the jedi grind when you're pimping 10m? I did this pre-cu SWG, and it helped IMMENSLY. Does it make me a bad person? Hell no, it just means I value my time ingame more than I value my IRL money. I worked hard for it, so why not put it to use that could save me hours, days, weeks even?
I think you're thinking in the right direction, the problem is that no MMO Developer has the time, effort, energy, foresight, ability, etc to create something like that. All MMOs are ultimatly coorporate creations... there is no love, and all will change depending on the influence it has on the amount of incomming money (Read: SWG)
In the light of this conversation, I cant help but bring up Entropia Universe. It has embraced a middle ground. That is a game that does not have gold farmers, there's no point, because they hold all the chips. They control the economy to the decimal point, so why waste time in nonsense like gold selling?
I believe this is the future of MMO gaming, where everything you do has a monetary consequence, and the developer ultimatly holds all the keys. What better way to squeeze every penny out of a player if he has no idea you're controlling his every action?